Author Topic: Wetzel: Figure Skating Not a Sport  (Read 6476 times)

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Re: Wetzel: Figure Skating Not a Sport
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2010, 02:48:43 PM »

Offline the_Bird

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This is a stupid argument ... so Wetzel determines what the definition of "sport" is?!? So "human bias" doesn't come into basketball or hockey or footbal or any other "sport"? That's absurd! Officials in EVERY sport that exists help decide the outcome of games, so don't give me that. Whether figure skating fits into someone's own definition of sport is THEIR decision, but don't try to justify this opinion by saying "true sports" are only those without human bias involved, because there is NOT a sport on earth that exists WITHOUT it.

I think the argument isn't that other sports are completely free of human bias, it's that outcomes in figure skating are more or less entirely up to subjective interpretation.  A comparable analogy would be several basketball teams each playing 5 on none for a few minutes, and at the end the referees vote on who they think played the best, with heavy emphasis on who looked more aesthetically pleasing while playing. 

I tend to agree with Wetzel - figure skaters are world-class athletes by any standard, but it's essentially a high-caliber dance competition on ice skates. 

...  then I think you (and Wetzel) ought to study up on how the judging in figure skating is done now.  It's been completely revamped in recent years.  My wife has bored me to tears with explaining where the numbers come from (she's become a bit obsessed with Johnny Weir).  There's absolutely a subjective component to it, but certainly no more so than in boxing or in many other sports.

EDIT: Seriously, read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISU_Judging_System

and tell me that this isn't (if done properly) just as objective as some guy behind home play deciding if that breaking ball was Strike 3 (much less the judging in boxing).
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 02:55:01 PM by the_Bird »

Re: Wetzel: Figure Skating Not a Sport
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2010, 02:51:12 PM »

Offline the_Bird

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I think sports involve teams that take the field/court/rink with the goal of beating each other.  Baseball, basketball, football, soccer, hockey.  I'd throw Lacrosse in there, and I'm probably missing a few of the more obscure ones.  

Why?  Seriously, why must you define the term "sports" that way?  Where's the rationale? 

You can hide behind the "it doesn't really matter, it's just a label" all you want, but don't tell me for one second there isn't a judgement being placed; calling one thing a "real" sport and something else "not" absolutely is saying that one is inherently inferior.

Re: Wetzel: Figure Skating Not a Sport
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2010, 02:57:57 PM »

Offline Atzar

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I think sports involve teams that take the field/court/rink with the goal of beating each other.  Baseball, basketball, football, soccer, hockey.  I'd throw Lacrosse in there, and I'm probably missing a few of the more obscure ones.  

Why?  Seriously, why must you define the term "sports" that way?  Where's the rationale? 

You can hide behind the "it doesn't really matter, it's just a label" all you want, but don't tell me for one second there isn't a judgement being placed; calling one thing a "real" sport and something else "not" absolutely is saying that one is inherently inferior.

Um, I am telling you there's no judgment being placed.  There's no qualitative difference between a sport and a competition.  One is not better than the other - it's simply categorization.

Skateboarding is not a sport.  Doesn't mean it isn't entertaining as hell to watch.  Same with everything else I listed in my previous post. 

Re: Wetzel: Figure Skating Not a Sport
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2010, 03:02:32 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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This is a stupid argument ... so Wetzel determines what the definition of "sport" is?!? So "human bias" doesn't come into basketball or hockey or footbal or any other "sport"? That's absurd! Officials in EVERY sport that exists help decide the outcome of games, so don't give me that. Whether figure skating fits into someone's own definition of sport is THEIR decision, but don't try to justify this opinion by saying "true sports" are only those without human bias involved, because there is NOT a sport on earth that exists WITHOUT it.

I think the argument isn't that other sports are completely free of human bias, it's that outcomes in figure skating are more or less entirely up to subjective interpretation.  A comparable analogy would be several basketball teams each playing 5 on none for a few minutes, and at the end the referees vote on who they think played the best, with heavy emphasis on who looked more aesthetically pleasing while playing. 

I tend to agree with Wetzel - figure skaters are world-class athletes by any standard, but it's essentially a high-caliber dance competition on ice skates. 

...  then I think you (and Wetzel) ought to study up on how the judging in figure skating is done now.  It's been completely revamped in recent years.  My wife has bored me to tears with explaining where the numbers come from (she's become a bit obsessed with Johnny Weir).  There's absolutely a subjective component to it, but certainly no more so than in boxing or in many other sports.

I'm pretty familiar with the setup already but I looked it up anyway.  Even their (the USFSA) examples of rating technical performance, presumably the area with the most objective criteria, all involve a step where each judge subjectively interprets the quality of the move.  If 3 referees all see KG dunk the ball, you won't see one score it as worth 1.9 points, another 2.1, and a third 2.0.  Not so in skating.  And obviously much of the score is still based in aesthetics as well. 

For the record, I think boxing is a sport in theory, but in practice when things go to the judges, incompetence and/or shenanigans are so commonplace that it really doesn't work that way.

Re: Wetzel: Figure Skating Not a Sport
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2010, 03:03:06 PM »

Offline the_Bird

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Why does you definition have to include "team"?  What about something like tennis?

How you want to define "sports" is arbitrary.  How I want to define "sports" (more openly) is also arbitrary.  To me, the key element of a sport is athletisicm and physical skill required, not things such as whether it is a team sport versus individual, or if you compete directly against someone, or whether it is timed versus judged.

Re: Wetzel: Figure Skating Not a Sport
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2010, 03:05:05 PM »

Offline Atzar

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Why does you definition have to include "team"?  What about something like tennis?

How you want to define "sports" is arbitrary.  How I want to define "sports" (more openly) is also arbitrary.  To me, the key element of a sport is athletisicm and physical skill required, not things such as whether it is a team sport versus individual, or if you compete directly against someone, or whether it is timed versus judged.

So survival in the wild is a sport?  It requires athleticism and physical skill, so by your definition it's a sport.

Re: Wetzel: Figure Skating Not a Sport
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2010, 03:06:33 PM »

Offline the_Bird

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Why does you definition have to include "team"?  What about something like tennis?

How you want to define "sports" is arbitrary.  How I want to define "sports" (more openly) is also arbitrary.  To me, the key element of a sport is athletisicm and physical skill required, not things such as whether it is a team sport versus individual, or if you compete directly against someone, or whether it is timed versus judged.

So survival in the wild is a sport?  It requires athleticism and physical skill, so by your definition it's a sport.

Bear Grilis versus Survivorman; last one breathing wins!

I'd watch it....  ;)

This definition

Quote
I think sports involve teams that take the field/court/rink with the goal of beating each other.  Baseball, basketball, football, soccer, hockey.  I'd throw Lacrosse in there, and I'm probably missing a few of the more obscure ones. 


also eliminated all of track and field, with the possible exception of relay races.  No reason that the only definition of "sports" that should count is "team sports."

Re: Wetzel: Figure Skating Not a Sport
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2010, 03:09:54 PM »

Offline Atzar

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Why does you definition have to include "team"?  What about something like tennis?

How you want to define "sports" is arbitrary.  How I want to define "sports" (more openly) is also arbitrary.  To me, the key element of a sport is athletisicm and physical skill required, not things such as whether it is a team sport versus individual, or if you compete directly against someone, or whether it is timed versus judged.

So survival in the wild is a sport?  It requires athleticism and physical skill, so by your definition it's a sport.

Bear Grilis versus Survivorman; last one breathing wins!

I'd watch it....  ;)

Haha, I think we'd be watching for awhile. 

Track and field isn't sport either.  It's competition.  They're some of the finest athletes in the world, but I don't consider it sports.  It's just my personal opinion, I'm not asking you to agree.

Re: Wetzel: Figure Skating Not a Sport
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2010, 06:55:40 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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My simplistic opinion: to be a sport, the winner must achieve a specific, measurable goal that results in a final decisive outcome.  A sport also requires at least a moderate amount of athleticism to perform.

Examples: Baseball, Basketball, Football, Hockey and similar things all have a specific goal that the winner is the team/person that scores the most points (or least in golf) by a specific point system.  Skiing/Racing/Swimming also fits in as sports since a winner is the one with the best times.

Boxing fits as a sport because the goal is to make the competitor unable to perform via a knockout or TKO.  granted they don't all end that way but most of the ones that require judging are pretty definitive who made the most connections on punches and registered the most damage. 

Figure skating, Snowboard halfpipes, aerial skiing and other activities like those that require someone's opinion to determine a winner aren't what I would consider sports.  I'd consider them contests or competitions.

Darts, curling, golf and bowling too for that matter I would consider games.  There's competition but not much athleticism. 

Re: Wetzel: Figure Skating Not a Sport
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2010, 07:36:30 AM »

Offline Birdbrain

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More of a sport than Golf.
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