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BOS / ATL / NOP idea
« on: January 27, 2021, 12:18:07 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Boston trades: Smart, Timelord, 1st, two seconds
Boston receives: J.J. Redick, John Collins, Kris Dunn

Atlanta trades:  John Collins, Tony Snell, Kris Dunn, second
Atlanta receives: Smart, Timelord, #1

NOP trades: Redick
NOP receives: Snell, three seconds

Theis / Thompson
Collins / Williams
Tatum / Langford / Nesmith
Brown / Redick / Dunn
Kemba / Pritchard / Teague
« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 09:49:07 PM by Roy H. »
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Re: BOs / ATL / NOP idea
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2021, 12:24:10 PM »

Offline Somebody

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Yikes no thanks. We're not going to win titles with our offence, we need to be strong on both ends of the court to compete with the big boys and Redick creates a really obvious chink in our armour for teams to exploit in the playoffs. I'd trade Timelord and multiple firsts for Collins though, he's been really good for the Hawks as a two-way big man (his defence is looking good so far with decent mobility and surprisingly good rim protection).

A rotation of
PG: Smart, Kemba, FastPP/Teague
SG: Brown, Smart, Langford/Javonte
SF: Tatum, Brown, Nesmith
PF: Collins, Tatum, Grant/Semi
C: Theis, TT, Grant

would be a very strong one that's capable of winning a 7 game series against any team in the league right now imo (I envision Kemba being our sixth man ala Ginobili, partly to manage his knee and also to ensure that we can maintain separation when our bench mob is playing).
« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 12:29:55 PM by Somebody »
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Re: BOs / ATL / NOP idea
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2021, 12:26:44 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Quote from: Somebody on January 27, 2021, 12:24:10 PM
Yikes no thanks. We're not going to win titles with our offence, we need to be strong on both ends of the court to compete with the big boys and Redick creates a really obvious chink in our armour for teams to exploit in the playoffs. I'd trade Timelord and multiple firsts for Collins though, he's been really good for the Hawks as a two-way big man (his defence is looking good so far with decent mobility and surprisingly good rim protection).

If our only matchup disadvantage is the defense of our backup shooting guard, we’re probably doing okay.

Theis / Brown / Tatum are always going to be very good defenders if the effort is there.  I don’t think you have to worry about us becoming a one-way team.
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Re: BOs / ATL / NOP idea
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2021, 12:37:35 PM »

Offline Somebody

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Quote from: Roy H. on January 27, 2021, 12:26:44 PM
Quote from: Somebody on January 27, 2021, 12:24:10 PM
Yikes no thanks. We're not going to win titles with our offence, we need to be strong on both ends of the court to compete with the big boys and Redick creates a really obvious chink in our armour for teams to exploit in the playoffs. I'd trade Timelord and multiple firsts for Collins though, he's been really good for the Hawks as a two-way big man (his defence is looking good so far with decent mobility and surprisingly good rim protection).

If our only matchup disadvantage is the defense of our backup shooting guard, we’re probably doing okay.

Theis / Brown / Tatum are always going to be very good defenders if the effort is there.  I don’t think you have to worry about us becoming a one-way team.
True, I just simply like the idea of having Smart / Brown / Tatum to throw on opposing teams in the playoffs and really slow teams down so our offence has more leeway to beat elite teams consistently.

I don't think we'll become a one-way team, but I do worry about losing a layer of elite perimeter defence (one great perimeter defender doesn't drive great defences, but multiple athletic guards/wings who are disruptive can be the backbone of one) that will take away some of our bite on that end of the court. I'd rather trade Timelord and multiple firsts for Collins and roll with Smart/Kemba soaking up most of the guard minutes, we'll still have plenty of shooting while our defence is going to be competing with the Lakers for best in the league.
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Re: BOs / ATL / NOP idea
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2021, 12:41:04 PM »

Offline celts55

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I like Collins, but hasn't Redick been a dude this year? Is it the way he's used or age catching up to him?

Legit question. I really haven't seen him play.
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Re: BOs / ATL / NOP idea
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2021, 12:41:38 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Quote from: Somebody on January 27, 2021, 12:37:35 PM
Quote from: Roy H. on January 27, 2021, 12:26:44 PM
Quote from: Somebody on January 27, 2021, 12:24:10 PM
Yikes no thanks. We're not going to win titles with our offence, we need to be strong on both ends of the court to compete with the big boys and Redick creates a really obvious chink in our armour for teams to exploit in the playoffs. I'd trade Timelord and multiple firsts for Collins though, he's been really good for the Hawks as a two-way big man (his defence is looking good so far with decent mobility and surprisingly good rim protection).

If our only matchup disadvantage is the defense of our backup shooting guard, we’re probably doing okay.

Theis / Brown / Tatum are always going to be very good defenders if the effort is there.  I don’t think you have to worry about us becoming a one-way team.
True, I just simply like the idea of having Smart / Brown / Tatum to throw on opposing teams in the playoffs and really slow teams down so our offence has more leeway to beat elite teams consistently.

I don't think we'll become a one-way team, but I do worry about losing a layer of elite perimeter defence (one great perimeter defender doesn't drive great defences, but multiple athletic guards/wings who are disruptive can be the backbone of one) that will take away some of our bite on that end of the court. I'd rather trade Timelord and multiple firsts for Collins and roll with Smart/Kemba soaking up most of the guard minutes, we'll still have plenty of shooting while our defence is going to be competing with the Lakers for best in the league.

I don’t know if Atlanta would bite on Timelord plus picks.  If they would, sure.  But generally, I think you have to give something to get something.

They could send us back Dunn, though, I suppose.
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Re: BOs / ATL / NOP idea
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2021, 12:42:54 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Quote from: celts55 on January 27, 2021, 12:41:04 PM
I like Collins, but hasn't Redick been a dude this year? Is it the way he's used or age catching up to him?

Legit question. I really haven't seen him play.

It depends on who you ask.  The true answer is probably somewhere in the middle. I don’t think guys go from elite shooters to 30% shooters overnight, especially in the span of months, but it’s hard to say.
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Re: BOs / ATL / NOP idea
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2021, 12:51:19 PM »

Offline td450

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Collins is an intriguing player, and this would be a worthwhile trade, except that making it work out would require signing Collins to something approaching a max contract next year. You couldn't just let him go.

This would force a trade in the offseason, ether of him or Kemba.

I must say I've been quite worried about Marcus Smart and whether he was going to be willing to accept a workable role. Until the last few games, I thought he was a problem, but he may have turned a corner. If that's true, his long term value to the C's goes up considerably, so I'm more conflicted than I would have been two weeks ago.
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Re: BOs / ATL / NOP idea
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2021, 01:00:16 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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This depends on your valuation, but it feels like Smart (who is an all-defensive player and a legit defensive MVP candidate year to year) probably has more value around the league than Collins. If that's true, it seems the Cs are giving up too much.

There's no doubt that Collins was productive on a bad team last year, but all of his stats are down this year. On top of that, I really think that one-way offensive players, particularly at the forward spot, just aren't that helpful to team success. Players like Jabari Parker and Kyle Kuzma lose out on playing time even though they can be very productive offensively. I think Collins is better than those guys, but I also don't think he has shown enough to indicate he can stay on the court for crucial defensive possessions.

I like Collins a lot. Guys who can produce and finish off of the creation of others is the next thing we need. I think Collins could fit that bill. However, I don't think this is the right price for him given defensive deficiencies and how much we would depend on him in the playoffs.
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Re: BOs / ATL / NOP idea
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2021, 01:10:35 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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Quote from: Roy H. on January 27, 2021, 12:18:07 PM
Boston trades: Smart, Timelord, 1st, two seconds
Boston receives: J.J. Redick, John Collins, Kris Dunn

Atlanta trades:  John Collins, Tony Snell, Kris Dunn, second
Atlanta receives: Smart, Timelord, #1

NOP trades: Redick
NOP receives: Snell, three seconds

If we needed to add a number one going to Atlanta, I would do that as well.

Theis / Thompson
Collins / Williams
Tatum / Langford
Brown / Redick / Nesmith
Kemba / Pritchard / Teague

I like Collins a lot. Good size and he’s shooing 40% from 3. Plus the Celtics are desperate for an upgrade at the PF/C. He’s arguably the Hawks second best player, so why would they want to move him? Collins has significantly more value than Smart and the Timelord is unproven. Celtics 1st round pick doesn’t have much value while Brown and Tatum are on the roster. Celtics would have to sweeten that deal for sure. Say they did and the C’s obtained Collins, would they be able to afford him after his current contract is up next year? I’m not sure.
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Re: BOs / ATL / NOP idea
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2021, 01:16:41 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Quote
  Say they did and the C’s obtained Collins, would they be able to afford him after his current contract is up next year? I’m not sure.

I think we could, particularly because the luxury tax is going to reset for us.

Let’s say Collins agrees to a contract that starts at $25 million next year.  Smart is making $14 million. So, just looking at those two, we are only adding $11 million to bring on Collins.
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Re: BOs / ATL / NOP idea
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2021, 01:45:36 PM »

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If I recall correctly, Atlanta and Collins couldn't agree on a contract extension this past offseason. Having said that, you would still need to overpay in a trade to get him. After all, the team would still have a qualifying offer next season and have the right to match any offer.

There is no way Atlanta would accept Timelord and multiple late first round picks. As much as I like Williams, he is still a backup player that is seemingly always unavailable due to injuries. Plus, Atlanta is trying to be competitive now, so adding Marcus Smart may be the incentive they need in a deal. Atlanta added a few quality big men recently through trades, free agency, and this past draft.

As for JJ Reddick, he may needs a change in scenery (competitive team). I would like to have a 3 point sniper coming off the bench on the Celtics again. He may be struggling now, but as the old adage goes, once a shooter always a shooter.
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Re: BOs / ATL / NOP idea
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2021, 01:46:57 PM »

Offline Somebody

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Quote from: Roy H. on January 27, 2021, 12:41:38 PM
Quote from: Somebody on January 27, 2021, 12:37:35 PM
Quote from: Roy H. on January 27, 2021, 12:26:44 PM
Quote from: Somebody on January 27, 2021, 12:24:10 PM
Yikes no thanks. We're not going to win titles with our offence, we need to be strong on both ends of the court to compete with the big boys and Redick creates a really obvious chink in our armour for teams to exploit in the playoffs. I'd trade Timelord and multiple firsts for Collins though, he's been really good for the Hawks as a two-way big man (his defence is looking good so far with decent mobility and surprisingly good rim protection).

If our only matchup disadvantage is the defense of our backup shooting guard, we’re probably doing okay.

Theis / Brown / Tatum are always going to be very good defenders if the effort is there.  I don’t think you have to worry about us becoming a one-way team.
True, I just simply like the idea of having Smart / Brown / Tatum to throw on opposing teams in the playoffs and really slow teams down so our offence has more leeway to beat elite teams consistently.

I don't think we'll become a one-way team, but I do worry about losing a layer of elite perimeter defence (one great perimeter defender doesn't drive great defences, but multiple athletic guards/wings who are disruptive can be the backbone of one) that will take away some of our bite on that end of the court. I'd rather trade Timelord and multiple firsts for Collins and roll with Smart/Kemba soaking up most of the guard minutes, we'll still have plenty of shooting while our defence is going to be competing with the Lakers for best in the league.

I don’t know if Atlanta would bite on Timelord plus picks.  If they would, sure.  But generally, I think you have to give something to get something.

They could send us back Dunn, though, I suppose.
If Atlanta is still somehow refusing to pay Collins big money I can see him getting sold for relatively cheap, and it's not like Timelord plus 2-3 1sts is something to sneeze at.
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Re: BOs / ATL / NOP idea
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2021, 01:50:29 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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a week ago, I'd seriously consider this deal but in light of Smart playing within himself the past few games and Reddick looking like he's lost his shot, I'd pass.  I like Collins but really don't like Dunn.  wouldn't do that deal right now even without the C's adding picks
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Re: BOs / ATL / NOP idea
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2021, 01:53:37 PM »

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I love the Marcus Smart arguments. If you like him, the Celtics can't trade him because he is a defensive monster and makes game winning plays all the time. If you don't like him, the team should trade him because he can't shoot and makes dumb plays.

I like Smart and all he brings to the game. I prefer him coming off the bench. This may be an old school way of thinking, but if he is to start, I would prefer it be at the PG position. He should be more of a facilitator and less of a scorer. If he's your starting SG, then I don't think anyone can complain if he shoots, as the position almost mandates it.
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