Author Topic: What did Jerry West know and when did he know it?  (Read 7107 times)

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Re: What did Jerry West know and when did he know it?
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2019, 01:11:44 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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This whole thread is based on the weird premise that Paul George would not only ask to be traded, not only that the Thunder would actually trade him, but also that the Thunder would be willing to trade him to LA.  That just seems highly unlikely.

Highly unlikely seems to always happen with Jerry West. I gave all the examples where Jerry West has completed highly unlikely deals that made everyone go WOW at the time. In my opinion he had to have known something to just wait and wait .... he did not go after Butler, he did not go after Kemba, he did not go after Durant, or Klay Thompson. He could have got  tried any of those players and offered them as enticement for Kawhi. He did not do any of that. Where would the Clippers be if Kawhi did not sign? I just believe, just my opinion. that the delay was to ensure the Lakers did not get that third star. Of course Kawhi would play along why would he want to be with the Clippers if the Lakers had a big three. I dont believe Kawhi was ever going to be a third wheel with the Lakers. That is what he would have been with the Lakers a third wheel. He would have been the last piece. He did not want that. He would have been a competing wing against LeBron because AD is a big and doesnt have to worry about that. Most importantly he would be under the huge shadow of LeBron James. 

It could have been Kawhi's plan to sign with the Lakers when he left San Antonio, but once LeBron  moved to the Lakers they lost their chance to get Kawhi. LeBron James 'stole' Kawhi's position with the Lakers. The questions Kawhi asked Magic were centered around how much the Lakers want him, who is actually in control of the Lakers, and would he get the same extra benefits LeBron got with the Lakers. Jerry West and Kawhi had the same goal get back at the Lakers in Jerry's case for forcing him out and in Kawhi's case for not waiting one year for him. Once he settled on the Clippers the only thing left was to make sure to stop the Laker Juggernaut. Jerry West knows these players, he knows their needs and how to talk to them.

This is wholly inaccurate.

Kawhi tried to persuade both Durant and Kyrie to the Clippers with him.  They both were flattered but had already agreed to team up with each other.  Kemba appears to simply be an east coast guy and was far more intrigued by either NY or Boston (or even Charlotte).  I'm not really sure what happened with Jimmy, but the Sixers would have had to be willing to play ball and the Clippers would have needed to find a third team to facilitate a deal.  It would have been complicated.  I also think Jimmy didn't want to wait and lose out on the opportunity to go to Miami.  But like I said, I'm not entirely sure about Jimmy, there wasn't as much reporting about him once he decided Miami early on.  Klay was always going to stay with GSW.

So in reality, the Clippers couldn't have just gotten any of those guys.  It seems they actually couldn't get any of them.

you grossly underestimate Jerry West. By the way if the choice is between Clippers tampering with PG before FA and Clippers tampering with PG after free agency, I think it is a distinction without a difference.

The Clippers never tampered with George.  Kawhi was the one that reached out to PG on behalf of himself (to the advantage of the Clippers yes - but not on their behalf).  Kawhi was a free agent acting on his own to get someone to join him.  PG was his last hope, otherwise, he was going to sign with the Lakers.  This is all well known by now.

West, nor anyone else on the Clippers, had anything to do with convincing PG to ask for a trade, that was all Kawhi's doing once he realized none of the other star free agents would join him on the Clippers.

Re: What did Jerry West know and when did he know it?
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2019, 01:30:57 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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This whole thread is based on the weird premise that Paul George would not only ask to be traded, not only that the Thunder would actually trade him, but also that the Thunder would be willing to trade him to LA.  That just seems highly unlikely.

Highly unlikely seems to always happen with Jerry West. I gave all the examples where Jerry West has completed highly unlikely deals that made everyone go WOW at the time. In my opinion he had to have known something to just wait and wait .... he did not go after Butler, he did not go after Kemba, he did not go after Durant, or Klay Thompson. He could have got  tried any of those players and offered them as enticement for Kawhi. He did not do any of that. Where would the Clippers be if Kawhi did not sign? I just believe, just my opinion. that the delay was to ensure the Lakers did not get that third star. Of course Kawhi would play along why would he want to be with the Clippers if the Lakers had a big three. I dont believe Kawhi was ever going to be a third wheel with the Lakers. That is what he would have been with the Lakers a third wheel. He would have been the last piece. He did not want that. He would have been a competing wing against LeBron because AD is a big and doesnt have to worry about that. Most importantly he would be under the huge shadow of LeBron James. 

It could have been Kawhi's plan to sign with the Lakers when he left San Antonio, but once LeBron  moved to the Lakers they lost their chance to get Kawhi. LeBron James 'stole' Kawhi's position with the Lakers. The questions Kawhi asked Magic were centered around how much the Lakers want him, who is actually in control of the Lakers, and would he get the same extra benefits LeBron got with the Lakers. Jerry West and Kawhi had the same goal get back at the Lakers in Jerry's case for forcing him out and in Kawhi's case for not waiting one year for him. Once he settled on the Clippers the only thing left was to make sure to stop the Laker Juggernaut. Jerry West knows these players, he knows their needs and how to talk to them.

This is wholly inaccurate.

Kawhi tried to persuade both Durant and Kyrie to the Clippers with him.  They both were flattered but had already agreed to team up with each other.  Kemba appears to simply be an east coast guy and was far more intrigued by either NY or Boston (or even Charlotte).  I'm not really sure what happened with Jimmy, but the Sixers would have had to be willing to play ball and the Clippers would have needed to find a third team to facilitate a deal.  It would have been complicated.  I also think Jimmy didn't want to wait and lose out on the opportunity to go to Miami.  But like I said, I'm not entirely sure about Jimmy, there wasn't as much reporting about him once he decided Miami early on.  Klay was always going to stay with GSW.

So in reality, the Clippers couldn't have just gotten any of those guys.  It seems they actually couldn't get any of them.

you grossly underestimate Jerry West. By the way if the choice is between Clippers tampering with PG before FA and Clippers tampering with PG after free agency, I think it is a distinction without a difference.

The Clippers never tampered with George.  Kawhi was the one that reached out to PG on behalf of himself (to the advantage of the Clippers yes - but not on their behalf).  Kawhi was a free agent acting on his own to get someone to join him.  PG was his last hope, otherwise, he was going to sign with the Lakers.  This is all well known by now.

West, nor anyone else on the Clippers, had anything to do with convincing PG to ask for a trade, that was all Kawhi's doing once he realized none of the other star free agents would join him on the Clippers.

How could you even believe that spin, that the Clippers - the team that had to facilitate and stood to benefit from a PG trade request - had no agency in the scheme that led to the trade demand. So in a matter of a week Kawhi Leonard was able to orchestrate a trade demand and trade without the Clippers even knowing about it. Yeah West had nothing to do with PG asking for a trade just like he had nothing to do with Shaq leaving Orlando. He is always just there to pick up the bounty. Any one that believes this is probably on their way to put in their bid on that bridge in Brooklyn.

Re: What did Jerry West know and when did he know it?
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2019, 01:56:14 PM »

Offline #1P4P

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It seems way more likely that West/Frank didn't think any of the other available players were worth ruining their chance for Kawhi. It takes a poorly run franchise (like the Knicks) to decide that players on the Tobias Harris or Julius Randle tiers are worth giving up a chance for a superstar like Kawhi

So I think they knew as much as we did (up until Kawhi told them that if they got Paul George he would sign with them). They knew that Kawhi wanted to play in LA, and did what they had to to be in a position to get him. They didn't know in advance that he was gonna sign there (it seems like Kawhi didn't, either), but they knew the possibility was there and left themselves open to it.

Trading Chris Paul was because he was about to leave in FA, tradong Blake was because the team wasn't going anywhere with him, and Harris was to get something out of him, because they weren't gonna give him the contract Philly just did. Opening up space to potentially get Kawhi may have been a factor in trading Harris, but it was far from the main/only reason

TP! What Jerry West and the Clippers knew is that they wanted Kawhi and were willing to pay the price.

The Clipppers sent representatives to Toronto for Raptors home games for the entire season! They were dedicated to demonstrating their interest in Kawhi and were willing to do what was necessary for him to want to be there.

The Clippers had a great year (accumulating assets, clearing space, and making the playoffs in a competitive WC). Once FA arrived, it was a matter of convincing OKC to start a semi-rebuild that they didn't have to (with KD leaving the Warriors and Klay severely injured next season, they could have easily convinced themselves to run it back with PG having just had an MVP/1stDT caliber season, Russ putting up another triple-double season, and Adams being young and still improving) by getting PG to ask for a trade (where actual tampering might've taken place) and "overpaying" (how do you overpay for 2 top 10 players in their primes into a contending situation?).

Re: What did Jerry West know and when did he know it?
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2019, 02:03:22 PM »

Offline Moranis

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This whole thread is based on the weird premise that Paul George would not only ask to be traded, not only that the Thunder would actually trade him, but also that the Thunder would be willing to trade him to LA.  That just seems highly unlikely.

Highly unlikely seems to always happen with Jerry West. I gave all the examples where Jerry West has completed highly unlikely deals that made everyone go WOW at the time. In my opinion he had to have known something to just wait and wait .... he did not go after Butler, he did not go after Kemba, he did not go after Durant, or Klay Thompson. He could have got  tried any of those players and offered them as enticement for Kawhi. He did not do any of that. Where would the Clippers be if Kawhi did not sign? I just believe, just my opinion. that the delay was to ensure the Lakers did not get that third star. Of course Kawhi would play along why would he want to be with the Clippers if the Lakers had a big three. I dont believe Kawhi was ever going to be a third wheel with the Lakers. That is what he would have been with the Lakers a third wheel. He would have been the last piece. He did not want that. He would have been a competing wing against LeBron because AD is a big and doesnt have to worry about that. Most importantly he would be under the huge shadow of LeBron James. 

It could have been Kawhi's plan to sign with the Lakers when he left San Antonio, but once LeBron  moved to the Lakers they lost their chance to get Kawhi. LeBron James 'stole' Kawhi's position with the Lakers. The questions Kawhi asked Magic were centered around how much the Lakers want him, who is actually in control of the Lakers, and would he get the same extra benefits LeBron got with the Lakers. Jerry West and Kawhi had the same goal get back at the Lakers in Jerry's case for forcing him out and in Kawhi's case for not waiting one year for him. Once he settled on the Clippers the only thing left was to make sure to stop the Laker Juggernaut. Jerry West knows these players, he knows their needs and how to talk to them.

This is wholly inaccurate.

Kawhi tried to persuade both Durant and Kyrie to the Clippers with him.  They both were flattered but had already agreed to team up with each other.  Kemba appears to simply be an east coast guy and was far more intrigued by either NY or Boston (or even Charlotte).  I'm not really sure what happened with Jimmy, but the Sixers would have had to be willing to play ball and the Clippers would have needed to find a third team to facilitate a deal.  It would have been complicated.  I also think Jimmy didn't want to wait and lose out on the opportunity to go to Miami.  But like I said, I'm not entirely sure about Jimmy, there wasn't as much reporting about him once he decided Miami early on.  Klay was always going to stay with GSW.

So in reality, the Clippers couldn't have just gotten any of those guys.  It seems they actually couldn't get any of them.

you grossly underestimate Jerry West. By the way if the choice is between Clippers tampering with PG before FA and Clippers tampering with PG after free agency, I think it is a distinction without a difference.

The Clippers never tampered with George.  Kawhi was the one that reached out to PG on behalf of himself (to the advantage of the Clippers yes - but not on their behalf).  Kawhi was a free agent acting on his own to get someone to join him.  PG was his last hope, otherwise, he was going to sign with the Lakers.  This is all well known by now.

West, nor anyone else on the Clippers, had anything to do with convincing PG to ask for a trade, that was all Kawhi's doing once he realized none of the other star free agents would join him on the Clippers.

How could you even believe that spin, that the Clippers - the team that had to facilitate and stood to benefit from a PG trade request - had no agency in the scheme that led to the trade demand. So in a matter of a week Kawhi Leonard was able to orchestrate a trade demand and trade without the Clippers even knowing about it. Yeah West had nothing to do with PG asking for a trade just like he had nothing to do with Shaq leaving Orlando. He is always just there to pick up the bounty. Any one that believes this is probably on their way to put in their bid on that bridge in Brooklyn.
What if Toronto would have taken Westbrook and given up all the 1st's they could trade?  Then Kawhi, George, and Westbrook are all Raptors right now.  That is why your premise is nonsense. 
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Re: What did Jerry West know and when did he know it?
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2019, 02:06:57 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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This whole thread is based on the weird premise that Paul George would not only ask to be traded, not only that the Thunder would actually trade him, but also that the Thunder would be willing to trade him to LA.  That just seems highly unlikely.

Highly unlikely seems to always happen with Jerry West. I gave all the examples where Jerry West has completed highly unlikely deals that made everyone go WOW at the time. In my opinion he had to have known something to just wait and wait .... he did not go after Butler, he did not go after Kemba, he did not go after Durant, or Klay Thompson. He could have got  tried any of those players and offered them as enticement for Kawhi. He did not do any of that. Where would the Clippers be if Kawhi did not sign? I just believe, just my opinion. that the delay was to ensure the Lakers did not get that third star. Of course Kawhi would play along why would he want to be with the Clippers if the Lakers had a big three. I dont believe Kawhi was ever going to be a third wheel with the Lakers. That is what he would have been with the Lakers a third wheel. He would have been the last piece. He did not want that. He would have been a competing wing against LeBron because AD is a big and doesnt have to worry about that. Most importantly he would be under the huge shadow of LeBron James. 

It could have been Kawhi's plan to sign with the Lakers when he left San Antonio, but once LeBron  moved to the Lakers they lost their chance to get Kawhi. LeBron James 'stole' Kawhi's position with the Lakers. The questions Kawhi asked Magic were centered around how much the Lakers want him, who is actually in control of the Lakers, and would he get the same extra benefits LeBron got with the Lakers. Jerry West and Kawhi had the same goal get back at the Lakers in Jerry's case for forcing him out and in Kawhi's case for not waiting one year for him. Once he settled on the Clippers the only thing left was to make sure to stop the Laker Juggernaut. Jerry West knows these players, he knows their needs and how to talk to them.

This is wholly inaccurate.

Kawhi tried to persuade both Durant and Kyrie to the Clippers with him.  They both were flattered but had already agreed to team up with each other.  Kemba appears to simply be an east coast guy and was far more intrigued by either NY or Boston (or even Charlotte).  I'm not really sure what happened with Jimmy, but the Sixers would have had to be willing to play ball and the Clippers would have needed to find a third team to facilitate a deal.  It would have been complicated.  I also think Jimmy didn't want to wait and lose out on the opportunity to go to Miami.  But like I said, I'm not entirely sure about Jimmy, there wasn't as much reporting about him once he decided Miami early on.  Klay was always going to stay with GSW.

So in reality, the Clippers couldn't have just gotten any of those guys.  It seems they actually couldn't get any of them.

you grossly underestimate Jerry West. By the way if the choice is between Clippers tampering with PG before FA and Clippers tampering with PG after free agency, I think it is a distinction without a difference.

The Clippers never tampered with George.  Kawhi was the one that reached out to PG on behalf of himself (to the advantage of the Clippers yes - but not on their behalf).  Kawhi was a free agent acting on his own to get someone to join him.  PG was his last hope, otherwise, he was going to sign with the Lakers.  This is all well known by now.

West, nor anyone else on the Clippers, had anything to do with convincing PG to ask for a trade, that was all Kawhi's doing once he realized none of the other star free agents would join him on the Clippers.

How could you even believe that spin, that the Clippers - the team that had to facilitate and stood to benefit from a PG trade request - had no agency in the scheme that led to the trade demand. So in a matter of a week Kawhi Leonard was able to orchestrate a trade demand and trade without the Clippers even knowing about it. Yeah West had nothing to do with PG asking for a trade just like he had nothing to do with Shaq leaving Orlando. He is always just there to pick up the bounty. Any one that believes this is probably on their way to put in their bid on that bridge in Brooklyn.

I think they contributed to Paul George's trade demand in the sense that, when Kawhi said "I'll sign with you if you get another star", they said "okay, tell us who you want and we'll give up whatever we need to to make it happen".  There's absolutely nothing to suggest that anyone but Kawhi was involved in convincing Paul George to leave OKC

Note that Kawhi saying "if you demand a trade right now, the Clippers will do whatever it takes to get you and then I'll join you there", the Clippers being told by Kawhi that Paul George demanded a trade (or simply that he wanted to play with George so they should see what it would take to get him), and the Clippers taking advantage of Paul George asking for a trade are not tampering.  Tampering would be if they were in contact with George before the trade demand, but if Kawhi was already convincing Paul George to demand a trade, what benefit is there to Jerry West/Lawrence Frank doing the same? I can't see the Clippers FO opening themselves up to massive tampering allegations/penalties (and you know OKC would go after them if they could, Paul George was still under a long term contract with them) for so little benefit (because Kawhi+Jerry West/Lawrence Frank is not going to be significantly more convincing than just Kawhi)

If you're looking for a boogie man in this whole thing and wondering who orchestrated it, you need to stop looking at Jerry West and look straight at Kawhi
I'm bitter.

Re: What did Jerry West know and when did he know it?
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2019, 03:27:41 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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This whole thread is based on the weird premise that Paul George would not only ask to be traded, not only that the Thunder would actually trade him, but also that the Thunder would be willing to trade him to LA.  That just seems highly unlikely.

Highly unlikely seems to always happen with Jerry West. I gave all the examples where Jerry West has completed highly unlikely deals that made everyone go WOW at the time. In my opinion he had to have known something to just wait and wait .... he did not go after Butler, he did not go after Kemba, he did not go after Durant, or Klay Thompson. He could have got  tried any of those players and offered them as enticement for Kawhi. He did not do any of that. Where would the Clippers be if Kawhi did not sign? I just believe, just my opinion. that the delay was to ensure the Lakers did not get that third star. Of course Kawhi would play along why would he want to be with the Clippers if the Lakers had a big three. I dont believe Kawhi was ever going to be a third wheel with the Lakers. That is what he would have been with the Lakers a third wheel. He would have been the last piece. He did not want that. He would have been a competing wing against LeBron because AD is a big and doesnt have to worry about that. Most importantly he would be under the huge shadow of LeBron James. 

It could have been Kawhi's plan to sign with the Lakers when he left San Antonio, but once LeBron  moved to the Lakers they lost their chance to get Kawhi. LeBron James 'stole' Kawhi's position with the Lakers. The questions Kawhi asked Magic were centered around how much the Lakers want him, who is actually in control of the Lakers, and would he get the same extra benefits LeBron got with the Lakers. Jerry West and Kawhi had the same goal get back at the Lakers in Jerry's case for forcing him out and in Kawhi's case for not waiting one year for him. Once he settled on the Clippers the only thing left was to make sure to stop the Laker Juggernaut. Jerry West knows these players, he knows their needs and how to talk to them.

This is wholly inaccurate.

Kawhi tried to persuade both Durant and Kyrie to the Clippers with him.  They both were flattered but had already agreed to team up with each other.  Kemba appears to simply be an east coast guy and was far more intrigued by either NY or Boston (or even Charlotte).  I'm not really sure what happened with Jimmy, but the Sixers would have had to be willing to play ball and the Clippers would have needed to find a third team to facilitate a deal.  It would have been complicated.  I also think Jimmy didn't want to wait and lose out on the opportunity to go to Miami.  But like I said, I'm not entirely sure about Jimmy, there wasn't as much reporting about him once he decided Miami early on.  Klay was always going to stay with GSW.

So in reality, the Clippers couldn't have just gotten any of those guys.  It seems they actually couldn't get any of them.

you grossly underestimate Jerry West. By the way if the choice is between Clippers tampering with PG before FA and Clippers tampering with PG after free agency, I think it is a distinction without a difference.

The Clippers never tampered with George.  Kawhi was the one that reached out to PG on behalf of himself (to the advantage of the Clippers yes - but not on their behalf).  Kawhi was a free agent acting on his own to get someone to join him.  PG was his last hope, otherwise, he was going to sign with the Lakers.  This is all well known by now.

West, nor anyone else on the Clippers, had anything to do with convincing PG to ask for a trade, that was all Kawhi's doing once he realized none of the other star free agents would join him on the Clippers.

How could you even believe that spin, that the Clippers - the team that had to facilitate and stood to benefit from a PG trade request - had no agency in the scheme that led to the trade demand. So in a matter of a week Kawhi Leonard was able to orchestrate a trade demand and trade without the Clippers even knowing about it. Yeah West had nothing to do with PG asking for a trade just like he had nothing to do with Shaq leaving Orlando. He is always just there to pick up the bounty. Any one that believes this is probably on their way to put in their bid on that bridge in Brooklyn.
What if Toronto would have taken Westbrook and given up all the 1st's they could trade?  Then Kawhi, George, and Westbrook are all Raptors right now.  That is why your premise is nonsense.

I guess the moderators do not have to observe board decorum. Right, Moranis?

Re: What did Jerry West know and when did he know it?
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2019, 03:32:21 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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This whole thread is based on the weird premise that Paul George would not only ask to be traded, not only that the Thunder would actually trade him, but also that the Thunder would be willing to trade him to LA.  That just seems highly unlikely.

Highly unlikely seems to always happen with Jerry West. I gave all the examples where Jerry West has completed highly unlikely deals that made everyone go WOW at the time. In my opinion he had to have known something to just wait and wait .... he did not go after Butler, he did not go after Kemba, he did not go after Durant, or Klay Thompson. He could have got  tried any of those players and offered them as enticement for Kawhi. He did not do any of that. Where would the Clippers be if Kawhi did not sign? I just believe, just my opinion. that the delay was to ensure the Lakers did not get that third star. Of course Kawhi would play along why would he want to be with the Clippers if the Lakers had a big three. I dont believe Kawhi was ever going to be a third wheel with the Lakers. That is what he would have been with the Lakers a third wheel. He would have been the last piece. He did not want that. He would have been a competing wing against LeBron because AD is a big and doesnt have to worry about that. Most importantly he would be under the huge shadow of LeBron James. 

It could have been Kawhi's plan to sign with the Lakers when he left San Antonio, but once LeBron  moved to the Lakers they lost their chance to get Kawhi. LeBron James 'stole' Kawhi's position with the Lakers. The questions Kawhi asked Magic were centered around how much the Lakers want him, who is actually in control of the Lakers, and would he get the same extra benefits LeBron got with the Lakers. Jerry West and Kawhi had the same goal get back at the Lakers in Jerry's case for forcing him out and in Kawhi's case for not waiting one year for him. Once he settled on the Clippers the only thing left was to make sure to stop the Laker Juggernaut. Jerry West knows these players, he knows their needs and how to talk to them.

This is wholly inaccurate.

Kawhi tried to persuade both Durant and Kyrie to the Clippers with him.  They both were flattered but had already agreed to team up with each other.  Kemba appears to simply be an east coast guy and was far more intrigued by either NY or Boston (or even Charlotte).  I'm not really sure what happened with Jimmy, but the Sixers would have had to be willing to play ball and the Clippers would have needed to find a third team to facilitate a deal.  It would have been complicated.  I also think Jimmy didn't want to wait and lose out on the opportunity to go to Miami.  But like I said, I'm not entirely sure about Jimmy, there wasn't as much reporting about him once he decided Miami early on.  Klay was always going to stay with GSW.

So in reality, the Clippers couldn't have just gotten any of those guys.  It seems they actually couldn't get any of them.

you grossly underestimate Jerry West. By the way if the choice is between Clippers tampering with PG before FA and Clippers tampering with PG after free agency, I think it is a distinction without a difference.

The Clippers never tampered with George.  Kawhi was the one that reached out to PG on behalf of himself (to the advantage of the Clippers yes - but not on their behalf).  Kawhi was a free agent acting on his own to get someone to join him.  PG was his last hope, otherwise, he was going to sign with the Lakers.  This is all well known by now.

West, nor anyone else on the Clippers, had anything to do with convincing PG to ask for a trade, that was all Kawhi's doing once he realized none of the other star free agents would join him on the Clippers.

How could you even believe that spin, that the Clippers - the team that had to facilitate and stood to benefit from a PG trade request - had no agency in the scheme that led to the trade demand. So in a matter of a week Kawhi Leonard was able to orchestrate a trade demand and trade without the Clippers even knowing about it. Yeah West had nothing to do with PG asking for a trade just like he had nothing to do with Shaq leaving Orlando. He is always just there to pick up the bounty. Any one that believes this is probably on their way to put in their bid on that bridge in Brooklyn.

I think they contributed to Paul George's trade demand in the sense that, when Kawhi said "I'll sign with you if you get another star", they said "okay, tell us who you want and we'll give up whatever we need to to make it happen".  There's absolutely nothing to suggest that anyone but Kawhi was involved in convincing Paul George to leave OKC

Note that Kawhi saying "if you demand a trade right now, the Clippers will do whatever it takes to get you and then I'll join you there", the Clippers being told by Kawhi that Paul George demanded a trade (or simply that he wanted to play with George so they should see what it would take to get him), and the Clippers taking advantage of Paul George asking for a trade are not tampering.  Tampering would be if they were in contact with George before the trade demand, but if Kawhi was already convincing Paul George to demand a trade, what benefit is there to Jerry West/Lawrence Frank doing the same? I can't see the Clippers FO opening themselves up to massive tampering allegations/penalties (and you know OKC would go after them if they could, Paul George was still under a long term contract with them) for so little benefit (because Kawhi+Jerry West/Lawrence Frank is not going to be significantly more convincing than just Kawhi)

If you're looking for a boogie man in this whole thing and wondering who orchestrated it, you need to stop looking at Jerry West and look straight at Kawhi

You are attributing power to Kawhi that he does not possess. The whole scheme has to have the Clippers as a willing taker. Without the Clippers wiling to facilitate the deal, it does not even start. There is no trade demand without the Clippers signalling to take a player that is already under contract. The tampering is through Kawhi. It has to be otherwise the Clippers get slammed for tampering. Again, Clippers must have known this was happening that is why they stayed pat while all the other free agents were dropping left and right.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2019, 06:30:50 PM by Ogaju »

Re: What did Jerry West know and when did he know it?
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2019, 07:48:41 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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This whole thread is based on the weird premise that Paul George would not only ask to be traded, not only that the Thunder would actually trade him, but also that the Thunder would be willing to trade him to LA.  That just seems highly unlikely.

Highly unlikely seems to always happen with Jerry West. I gave all the examples where Jerry West has completed highly unlikely deals that made everyone go WOW at the time. In my opinion he had to have known something to just wait and wait .... he did not go after Butler, he did not go after Kemba, he did not go after Durant, or Klay Thompson. He could have got  tried any of those players and offered them as enticement for Kawhi. He did not do any of that. Where would the Clippers be if Kawhi did not sign? I just believe, just my opinion. that the delay was to ensure the Lakers did not get that third star. Of course Kawhi would play along why would he want to be with the Clippers if the Lakers had a big three. I dont believe Kawhi was ever going to be a third wheel with the Lakers. That is what he would have been with the Lakers a third wheel. He would have been the last piece. He did not want that. He would have been a competing wing against LeBron because AD is a big and doesnt have to worry about that. Most importantly he would be under the huge shadow of LeBron James. 

It could have been Kawhi's plan to sign with the Lakers when he left San Antonio, but once LeBron  moved to the Lakers they lost their chance to get Kawhi. LeBron James 'stole' Kawhi's position with the Lakers. The questions Kawhi asked Magic were centered around how much the Lakers want him, who is actually in control of the Lakers, and would he get the same extra benefits LeBron got with the Lakers. Jerry West and Kawhi had the same goal get back at the Lakers in Jerry's case for forcing him out and in Kawhi's case for not waiting one year for him. Once he settled on the Clippers the only thing left was to make sure to stop the Laker Juggernaut. Jerry West knows these players, he knows their needs and how to talk to them.

This is wholly inaccurate.

Kawhi tried to persuade both Durant and Kyrie to the Clippers with him.  They both were flattered but had already agreed to team up with each other.  Kemba appears to simply be an east coast guy and was far more intrigued by either NY or Boston (or even Charlotte).  I'm not really sure what happened with Jimmy, but the Sixers would have had to be willing to play ball and the Clippers would have needed to find a third team to facilitate a deal.  It would have been complicated.  I also think Jimmy didn't want to wait and lose out on the opportunity to go to Miami.  But like I said, I'm not entirely sure about Jimmy, there wasn't as much reporting about him once he decided Miami early on.  Klay was always going to stay with GSW.

So in reality, the Clippers couldn't have just gotten any of those guys.  It seems they actually couldn't get any of them.

you grossly underestimate Jerry West. By the way if the choice is between Clippers tampering with PG before FA and Clippers tampering with PG after free agency, I think it is a distinction without a difference.

The Clippers never tampered with George.  Kawhi was the one that reached out to PG on behalf of himself (to the advantage of the Clippers yes - but not on their behalf).  Kawhi was a free agent acting on his own to get someone to join him.  PG was his last hope, otherwise, he was going to sign with the Lakers.  This is all well known by now.

West, nor anyone else on the Clippers, had anything to do with convincing PG to ask for a trade, that was all Kawhi's doing once he realized none of the other star free agents would join him on the Clippers.

How could you even believe that spin, that the Clippers - the team that had to facilitate and stood to benefit from a PG trade request - had no agency in the scheme that led to the trade demand. So in a matter of a week Kawhi Leonard was able to orchestrate a trade demand and trade without the Clippers even knowing about it. Yeah West had nothing to do with PG asking for a trade just like he had nothing to do with Shaq leaving Orlando. He is always just there to pick up the bounty. Any one that believes this is probably on their way to put in their bid on that bridge in Brooklyn.

I think they contributed to Paul George's trade demand in the sense that, when Kawhi said "I'll sign with you if you get another star", they said "okay, tell us who you want and we'll give up whatever we need to to make it happen".  There's absolutely nothing to suggest that anyone but Kawhi was involved in convincing Paul George to leave OKC

Note that Kawhi saying "if you demand a trade right now, the Clippers will do whatever it takes to get you and then I'll join you there", the Clippers being told by Kawhi that Paul George demanded a trade (or simply that he wanted to play with George so they should see what it would take to get him), and the Clippers taking advantage of Paul George asking for a trade are not tampering.  Tampering would be if they were in contact with George before the trade demand, but if Kawhi was already convincing Paul George to demand a trade, what benefit is there to Jerry West/Lawrence Frank doing the same? I can't see the Clippers FO opening themselves up to massive tampering allegations/penalties (and you know OKC would go after them if they could, Paul George was still under a long term contract with them) for so little benefit (because Kawhi+Jerry West/Lawrence Frank is not going to be significantly more convincing than just Kawhi)

If you're looking for a boogie man in this whole thing and wondering who orchestrated it, you need to stop looking at Jerry West and look straight at Kawhi

You are attributing power to Kawhi that he does not possess. The whole scheme has to have the Clippers as a willing taker. Without the Clippers wiling to facilitate the deal, it does not even start. There is no trade demand without the Clippers signalling to take a player that is already under contract. The tampering is through Kawhi. It has to be otherwise the Clippers get slammed for tampering. Again, Clippers must have known this was happening that is why they stayed pat while all the other free agents were dropping left and right.

Literally no one has said that the Clippers didn't negotiate the trade for George. They obviously did, but that doesn't mean that they had anything to do with the trade demand, or knew about it before Free Agency started

What realistic free agent in this year's class would have been enough to lure Kawhi? Jimmy Butler is the only guy you could argue (Kemba was set on Boston, KD and Kyrie on Brooklyn, no other truly elite FAs changed teams), but he seemed pretty set on Miami. I'm sure that the Clippers has discussions with other FAs (for the case where they signed Kawhi and the case where they didn't), but they had no reason to come to any agreements until after Kawhi decided. They just left their options open, just like the Lakers and Raptors did, and we're ready to strike when Kawhi said he would sign there if they traded for Paul George. If he had signed with the Lakers or Toronto, someone would be posting a nearly identical thread about how clearly Lebron/Ujiri knew Kawhi was coming the whole time, and West had no idea/was being strung along
I'm bitter.

Re: What did Jerry West know and when did he know it?
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2019, 09:04:51 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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Lakers did not put all their chips on the Kawhi signing. They already had LeBron and AD. Toronto really did not have any choice but Kawhi or broke. Clippers had options they chose not to explore. That is very very unlike a Jerry West run enterprise. In my opinion he knew and that is why he waited.

Re: What did Jerry West know and when did he know it?
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2019, 12:13:27 AM »

Offline Never Nervous Pervis

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A lot is being thrown around about tampering and the Lakers feelings being hurt that Kawhi took them for a ride. It is always amazing how Jerry West AKA the logo always seems to skate when he tampers with other team's players.  West has a history of tampering the best example being the Shaq heist from Orlando. He also seemed to get Gasol for peanuts from the Grizzlies. Dont know how he came in and scooped KD from OKC. The most recent signing of Kawhi suggests that West may have been up to his old tricks again. It is quite probable that West and Kawhi had hatched a plan to get him to the Clippers long before Kawhi became a free agent.

Jerry West wasn't the Lakers GM when they acquired Gasol, which happened in Feb 2008. He had left 6 years earlier to be GM of the Grizzlies.

Re: What did Jerry West know and when did he know it?
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2019, 02:17:06 AM »

Offline Ogaju

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A lot is being thrown around about tampering and the Lakers feelings being hurt that Kawhi took them for a ride. It is always amazing how Jerry West AKA the logo always seems to skate when he tampers with other team's players.  West has a history of tampering the best example being the Shaq heist from Orlando. He also seemed to get Gasol for peanuts from the Grizzlies. Dont know how he came in and scooped KD from OKC. The most recent signing of Kawhi suggests that West may have been up to his old tricks again. It is quite probable that West and Kawhi had hatched a plan to get him to the Clippers long before Kawhi became a free agent.

Jerry West wasn't the Lakers GM when they acquired Gasol, which happened in Feb 2008. He had left 6 years earlier to be GM of the Grizzlies.

Yes, Jerry West left the Lakers in 2002. He was GM with the Grizzlies until 2007. Jerry West was denies it but many believe that he had his hands in the Gasol to Lakers for peanuts deal.

Re: What did Jerry West know and when did he know it?
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2019, 10:38:28 AM »

Offline IDreamCeltics

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It's crazy how many great moves Jerry West has been involved in... Building 3 superteams is pretty ridiculous.  Most GM's never even build one championship competitor.

Re: What did Jerry West know and when did he know it?
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2019, 10:50:03 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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A lot is being thrown around about tampering and the Lakers feelings being hurt that Kawhi took them for a ride. It is always amazing how Jerry West AKA the logo always seems to skate when he tampers with other team's players.  West has a history of tampering the best example being the Shaq heist from Orlando. He also seemed to get Gasol for peanuts from the Grizzlies. Dont know how he came in and scooped KD from OKC. The most recent signing of Kawhi suggests that West may have been up to his old tricks again. It is quite probable that West and Kawhi had hatched a plan to get him to the Clippers long before Kawhi became a free agent.

Jerry West wasn't the Lakers GM when they acquired Gasol, which happened in Feb 2008. He had left 6 years earlier to be GM of the Grizzlies.

Yes, Jerry West left the Lakers in 2002. He was GM with the Grizzlies until 2007. Jerry West was denies it but many believe that he had his hands in the Gasol to Lakers for peanuts deal.

Marc Gasol and 2 firsts is peanuts?

Re: What did Jerry West know and when did he know it?
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2019, 10:50:33 AM »

Offline footey

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A lot is being thrown around about tampering and the Lakers feelings being hurt that Kawhi took them for a ride. It is always amazing how Jerry West AKA the logo always seems to skate when he tampers with other team's players.  West has a history of tampering the best example being the Shaq heist from Orlando. He also seemed to get Gasol for peanuts from the Grizzlies. Dont know how he came in and scooped KD from OKC. The most recent signing of Kawhi suggests that West may have been up to his old tricks again. It is quite probable that West and Kawhi had hatched a plan to get him to the Clippers long before Kawhi became a free agent.

Jerry West wasn't the Lakers GM when they acquired Gasol, which happened in Feb 2008. He had left 6 years earlier to be GM of the Grizzlies.

Yes, Jerry West left the Lakers in 2002. He was GM with the Grizzlies until 2007. Jerry West was denies it but many believe that he had his hands in the Gasol to Lakers for peanuts deal.

Yeah, Marc Gasol was peanuts.  LOL.

Re: What did Jerry West know and when did he know it?
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2019, 11:14:13 AM »

Offline moiso

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A lot is being thrown around about tampering and the Lakers feelings being hurt that Kawhi took them for a ride. It is always amazing how Jerry West AKA the logo always seems to skate when he tampers with other team's players.  West has a history of tampering the best example being the Shaq heist from Orlando. He also seemed to get Gasol for peanuts from the Grizzlies. Dont know how he came in and scooped KD from OKC. The most recent signing of Kawhi suggests that West may have been up to his old tricks again. It is quite probable that West and Kawhi had hatched a plan to get him to the Clippers long before Kawhi became a free agent.

Jerry West wasn't the Lakers GM when they acquired Gasol, which happened in Feb 2008. He had left 6 years earlier to be GM of the Grizzlies.

Yes, Jerry West left the Lakers in 2002. He was GM with the Grizzlies until 2007. Jerry West was denies it but many believe that he had his hands in the Gasol to Lakers for peanuts deal.

Yeah, Marc Gasol was peanuts.  LOL.
He was a big fat peanut at that time who was drafted at number 48.