Building around Tatum and Brown is a Mistake

[tenn_smoothie]

Just curious, what would Draymond trade value look like? He could replace the need for playmaking in the starting lineup.

Draymond
Hayward
Brown
Tatum
Draft Pick

🧐

Draymond Green cant battle AD nor Bam

Thank You

[mrceltics2013]

Just curious, what would Draymond trade value look like? He could replace the need for playmaking in the starting lineup.

Draymond
Hayward
Brown
Tatum
Draft Pick

🧐

Draymond Green cant battle AD nor Bam

Thank You

The same Dray with 3 rings? I think y’all put these bigs on way too high of a pedestal and undervaluing Dray.

[PAOBoston]

Just curious, what would Draymond trade value look like? He could replace the need for playmaking in the starting lineup.

Draymond
Hayward
Brown
Tatum
Draft Pick

🧐

Not sure how much he has left in the tank but he’s the kind of player I think would have an impact on the young Cs. He’s a veteran and has championship experience. Also think he’d be a good fit in the lineup too. Think this current version of the Cs could use some players like that.

[mrceltics2013]

Just curious, what would Draymond trade value look like? He could replace the need for playmaking in the starting lineup.

Draymond
Hayward
Brown
Tatum
Draft Pick

🧐

Not sure how much he has left in the tank but he’s the kind of player I think would have an impact on the young Cs. He’s a veteran and has championship experience. Also think he’d be a good fit in the lineup too. Think this current version of the Cs could use some players like that.

BINGO

[mrceltics2013]

Just curious, what would Draymond trade value look like? He could replace the need for playmaking in the starting lineup.

Draymond
Hayward
Brown
Tatum
Draft Pick

🧐

Not sure how much he has left in the tank but he’s the kind of player I think would have an impact on the young Cs. He’s a veteran and has championship experience. Also think he’d be a good fit in the lineup too. Think this current version of the Cs could use some players like that.

BINGO

Playoff draymond 🧐

[Moranis]

I think Draymond was vastly overrated when the Warriors were winning and in his prime, but I think he is washed.  He looked awful this year, when he was actually healthy enough to even play.  I know he is only going to enter year 9 and is 30 (so theoretically right in the middle of his prime), but I do think the years of battling vastly bigger players has taken a toll on his body.   I certainly could be wrong and maybe he some life left when he goes back into his 3rd or 4th man type role, but I just wouldn't bet on Dray being a really effective player going forward. 

[indeedproceed]

I see that DA is trying.  We have all star kemba and pretty good Hayward (when healthy).  But those guys are older and wouldn't be here during much of their peak.  And, that was good enough for third in the east and only half way to a title.  That’s not good enough.

People forget that Washington made it to the eastern conference final with wall and Beal.  Lillard and McCollum have been very successful in portland but haven’t really been good enough.  That’s the level more of less I see for Tatum and brown.

I am the biggest Damian Lillard fan that exists on this forum. I feel confident in that (Thanks, DKC). But Lillard and McCollum are much harder to build around than Tatum/Brown. And also, were much older when the process started. For context, Jayson Tatum was 2 years younger than Lillard in his first All-Star game in a more dominant season. Brown right now is as good of a player or better than McCollum, at the same time, positional scarcity really tilts this in Boston's favor.

While Kemba is an all-star caliber player, if we had to replace Kemba's production it would be a lot easier to adjust for that than if we had to replace Tatum or Brown's, due to their 2-way value.

And keep in mind, these guys are 22 and 23.

I'll challenge you as the biggest Lillard fan on the forum, but agree on all accounts.

IP sets a very high bar for Lillard fandom.  This isn't some recent thing.  There's history there.

7 years of pure hype. 7 years on the record plus I chose Portland over Golden State when selecting teams. Yes...I did do it because I knew Yoki was right after me and I knew how much he loved Golden State but I still took Sophomore Lillard and LMA over  Golden State.

And I've thoroughly mismanaged the team but I still chose them!

[tenn_smoothie]

I believe it is a mistake to look at building around Jaylen Brown & Jayson Tatum as just building around Jaylen and Tatum.

If you have two young stars like Shaq and Kobe, you can build a title winner around two top young studs because both of those guys are MVP candidates.

If you have two lesser talents, you need to build either a Big Three or a Big Four dynamic. Or a 2004 Pistons starting five with depth dynamic.

The understanding of building around Tatum and Jaylen needs to be that you have two parts of that Big Three or Big Four already in place and in place for the next decade.

In the immediate future, we also have Kemba and Hayward to give our team a Big Four that can win an NBA Title right now. In the long term future, we will need to replace them at some point. That will happen. And that is fine.

Ainge can create cap flexibility or trade assets at some point to accomplish that goal. To bring in a 3rd star or maybe 3rd + 4th star to support Jaylen and Tatum depending both on their own individual progressions and on the talent level of the incoming star.

Unfortunately, that current Big 4  is simply not good enough to win a title. They need additional pieces plus a bench, though Hayward as 6th man along with Rob Williams and a shooter would be a good start.

[Somebody]

I think Draymond was vastly overrated when the Warriors were winning and in his prime, but I think he is washed.  He looked awful this year, when he was actually healthy enough to even play.  I know he is only going to enter year 9 and is 30 (so theoretically right in the middle of his prime), but I do think the years of battling vastly bigger players has taken a toll on his body.   I certainly could be wrong and maybe he some life left when he goes back into his 3rd or 4th man type role, but I just wouldn't bet on Dray being a really effective player going forward.

He really wasn't, he was an elite defensive anchor who was a really good 3rd or 4th option (he can't scale up at all due to his complete lack of a scoring game, but his passing, screen setting and transition game make him a very good 3rd or 4th guy on a quality offence). Certainly a top 10-15 player from 2015-2019 imo.

As for this season I felt he wasn't really locked in rather than being washed due the Warriors sucking without Curry and Thompson. I think he'll be fine going forward, he might not be a top 10-15 player anymore but I don't see why can't be an All-Star calibre player even if he deteriorates a bit.

[Moranis]

I think Draymond was vastly overrated when the Warriors were winning and in his prime, but I think he is washed.  He looked awful this year, when he was actually healthy enough to even play.  I know he is only going to enter year 9 and is 30 (so theoretically right in the middle of his prime), but I do think the years of battling vastly bigger players has taken a toll on his body.   I certainly could be wrong and maybe he some life left when he goes back into his 3rd or 4th man type role, but I just wouldn't bet on Dray being a really effective player going forward.

He really wasn't, he was an elite defensive anchor who was a really good 3rd or 4th option (he can't scale up at all due to his complete lack of a scoring game, but his passing, screen setting and transition game make him a very good 3rd or 4th guy on a quality offence). Certainly a top 10-15 player from 2015-2019 imo.

As for this season I felt he wasn't really locked in rather than being washed due the Warriors sucking without Curry and Thompson. I think he'll be fine going forward, he might not be a top 10-15 player anymore but I don't see why can't be an All-Star calibre player even if he deteriorates a bit.

Guys who peak at 3rd or 4th options aren't top 10 to 15 players in the game.  That is why I think he was vastly overrated.  He was an excellent defender and solid distributor, but that doesn't make you a top 15 player let alone a top 10 one.  That is what I mean when I say he was vastly overrated. 

[Somebody]

I think Draymond was vastly overrated when the Warriors were winning and in his prime, but I think he is washed.  He looked awful this year, when he was actually healthy enough to even play.  I know he is only going to enter year 9 and is 30 (so theoretically right in the middle of his prime), but I do think the years of battling vastly bigger players has taken a toll on his body.   I certainly could be wrong and maybe he some life left when he goes back into his 3rd or 4th man type role, but I just wouldn't bet on Dray being a really effective player going forward.

He really wasn't, he was an elite defensive anchor who was a really good 3rd or 4th option (he can't scale up at all due to his complete lack of a scoring game, but his passing, screen setting and transition game make him a very good 3rd or 4th guy on a quality offence). Certainly a top 10-15 player from 2015-2019 imo.

As for this season I felt he wasn't really locked in rather than being washed due the Warriors sucking without Curry and Thompson. I think he'll be fine going forward, he might not be a top 10-15 player anymore but I don't see why can't be an All-Star calibre player even if he deteriorates a bit.

Guys who peak at 3rd or 4th options aren't top 10 to 15 players in the game.  That is why I think he was vastly overrated.  He was an excellent defender and solid distributor, but that doesn't make you a top 15 player let alone a top 10 one.  That is what I mean when I say he was vastly overrated.

You'd be correct if basketball was only played on one end of the floor. Defence still matters a lot even in the modern NBA, an elite defensive anchor with neutral offence ala Gobert is enough to vault a player into the top 10-15 conversation. If anything Draymond is underrated with this insane offensive bias that exists in NBA fandom.

[gouki88]

I think Draymond was vastly overrated when the Warriors were winning and in his prime, but I think he is washed.  He looked awful this year, when he was actually healthy enough to even play.  I know he is only going to enter year 9 and is 30 (so theoretically right in the middle of his prime), but I do think the years of battling vastly bigger players has taken a toll on his body.   I certainly could be wrong and maybe he some life left when he goes back into his 3rd or 4th man type role, but I just wouldn't bet on Dray being a really effective player going forward.

He really wasn't, he was an elite defensive anchor who was a really good 3rd or 4th option (he can't scale up at all due to his complete lack of a scoring game, but his passing, screen setting and transition game make him a very good 3rd or 4th guy on a quality offence). Certainly a top 10-15 player from 2015-2019 imo.

As for this season I felt he wasn't really locked in rather than being washed due the Warriors sucking without Curry and Thompson. I think he'll be fine going forward, he might not be a top 10-15 player anymore but I don't see why can't be an All-Star calibre player even if he deteriorates a bit.

Guys who peak at 3rd or 4th options aren't top 10 to 15 players in the game.  That is why I think he was vastly overrated.  He was an excellent defender and solid distributor, but that doesn't make you a top 15 player let alone a top 10 one.  That is what I mean when I say he was vastly overrated.

I think Draymond was comfortably in the top 20 from 2014-2018 sat comfortably in the top 20 in the league. DPOY level play on one end, great playmaking and decent offence on the other.

I think if Draymond gets a clean run of health this year he'll return to that 10-7-7 guy

[Moranis]

I think Draymond was vastly overrated when the Warriors were winning and in his prime, but I think he is washed.  He looked awful this year, when he was actually healthy enough to even play.  I know he is only going to enter year 9 and is 30 (so theoretically right in the middle of his prime), but I do think the years of battling vastly bigger players has taken a toll on his body.   I certainly could be wrong and maybe he some life left when he goes back into his 3rd or 4th man type role, but I just wouldn't bet on Dray being a really effective player going forward.

He really wasn't, he was an elite defensive anchor who was a really good 3rd or 4th option (he can't scale up at all due to his complete lack of a scoring game, but his passing, screen setting and transition game make him a very good 3rd or 4th guy on a quality offence). Certainly a top 10-15 player from 2015-2019 imo.

As for this season I felt he wasn't really locked in rather than being washed due the Warriors sucking without Curry and Thompson. I think he'll be fine going forward, he might not be a top 10-15 player anymore but I don't see why can't be an All-Star calibre player even if he deteriorates a bit.

Guys who peak at 3rd or 4th options aren't top 10 to 15 players in the game.  That is why I think he was vastly overrated.  He was an excellent defender and solid distributor, but that doesn't make you a top 15 player let alone a top 10 one.  That is what I mean when I say he was vastly overrated.

You'd be correct if basketball was only played on one end of the floor. Defence still matters a lot even in the modern NBA, an elite defensive anchor with neutral offence ala Gobert is enough to vault a player into the top 10-15 conversation. If anything Draymond is underrated with this insane offensive bias that exists in NBA fandom.

I don't think Gobert is a top 15 player either, though at least Gobert is an elite rebounder and a far more consistent scorer and unlike Green actually protects the rim.  Obviously not the playmaker that Green was and doesn't quite have the defensive versatility, but I'd put Gobert slightly ahead of Green though somewhat similar in value.  And that is again why I believe Green was vastly overrated because neither Green nor Gobert are/were top 15 players.

[Hoopvortex]

I think Draymond was vastly overrated when the Warriors were winning and in his prime, but I think he is washed.  He looked awful this year, when he was actually healthy enough to even play.  I know he is only going to enter year 9 and is 30 (so theoretically right in the middle of his prime), but I do think the years of battling vastly bigger players has taken a toll on his body.   I certainly could be wrong and maybe he some life left when he goes back into his 3rd or 4th man type role, but I just wouldn't bet on Dray being a really effective player going forward.

He really wasn't, he was an elite defensive anchor who was a really good 3rd or 4th option (he can't scale up at all due to his complete lack of a scoring game, but his passing, screen setting and transition game make him a very good 3rd or 4th guy on a quality offence). Certainly a top 10-15 player from 2015-2019 imo.

As for this season I felt he wasn't really locked in rather than being washed due the Warriors sucking without Curry and Thompson. I think he'll be fine going forward, he might not be a top 10-15 player anymore but I don't see why can't be an All-Star calibre player even if he deteriorates a bit.

Guys who peak at 3rd or 4th options aren't top 10 to 15 players in the game.  That is why I think he was vastly overrated.  He was an excellent defender and solid distributor, but that doesn't make you a top 15 player let alone a top 10 one.  That is what I mean when I say he was vastly overrated.

You'd be correct if basketball was only played on one end of the floor. Defence still matters a lot even in the modern NBA, an elite defensive anchor with neutral offence ala Gobert is enough to vault a player into the top 10-15 conversation. If anything Draymond is underrated with this insane offensive bias that exists in NBA fandom.

I don't think Gobert is a top 15 player either, though at least Gobert is an elite rebounder and a far more consistent scorer and unlike Green actually protects the rim.  Obviously not the playmaker that Green was and doesn't quite have the defensive versatility, but I'd put Gobert slightly ahead of Green though somewhat similar in value.  And that is again why I believe Green was vastly overrated because neither Green nor Gobert are/were top 15 players.

Draymond Green is one of the best rim-protectors in the league. Shot blocking isn’t the only way to get it done.

[Somebody]

I think Draymond was vastly overrated when the Warriors were winning and in his prime, but I think he is washed.  He looked awful this year, when he was actually healthy enough to even play.  I know he is only going to enter year 9 and is 30 (so theoretically right in the middle of his prime), but I do think the years of battling vastly bigger players has taken a toll on his body.   I certainly could be wrong and maybe he some life left when he goes back into his 3rd or 4th man type role, but I just wouldn't bet on Dray being a really effective player going forward.

He really wasn't, he was an elite defensive anchor who was a really good 3rd or 4th option (he can't scale up at all due to his complete lack of a scoring game, but his passing, screen setting and transition game make him a very good 3rd or 4th guy on a quality offence). Certainly a top 10-15 player from 2015-2019 imo.

As for this season I felt he wasn't really locked in rather than being washed due the Warriors sucking without Curry and Thompson. I think he'll be fine going forward, he might not be a top 10-15 player anymore but I don't see why can't be an All-Star calibre player even if he deteriorates a bit.

Guys who peak at 3rd or 4th options aren't top 10 to 15 players in the game.  That is why I think he was vastly overrated.  He was an excellent defender and solid distributor, but that doesn't make you a top 15 player let alone a top 10 one.  That is what I mean when I say he was vastly overrated.

You'd be correct if basketball was only played on one end of the floor. Defence still matters a lot even in the modern NBA, an elite defensive anchor with neutral offence ala Gobert is enough to vault a player into the top 10-15 conversation. If anything Draymond is underrated with this insane offensive bias that exists in NBA fandom.

I don't think Gobert is a top 15 player either, though at least Gobert is an elite rebounder and a far more consistent scorer and unlike Green actually protects the rim.  Obviously not the playmaker that Green was and doesn't quite have the defensive versatility, but I'd put Gobert slightly ahead of Green though somewhat similar in value.  And that is again why I believe Green was vastly overrated because neither Green nor Gobert are/were top 15 players.

Draymond Green is one of the best rim-protectors in the league. Shot blocking isn’t the only way to get it done.

^this. Draymond's defence is similar to the "horizontal game" of Russell and Garnett, you can protect the rim by jamming offensive actions before they even mature into shot attempts at the rim.