Author Topic: Phil Jackson exploited Rondo, rest of the league took notice...  (Read 9461 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Phil Jackson exploited Rondo, rest of the league took notice...
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2009, 06:26:16 PM »

Offline pearljammer10

  • K.C. Jones
  • *************
  • Posts: 13129
  • Tommy Points: 885
Yea but Delonte West is only and inch or two taller than Rondo, nothing like a jared jefferies or a lamar odom.

Re: Phil Jackson exploited Rondo, rest of the league took notice...
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2009, 07:25:39 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21238
  • Tommy Points: 2016
Rondo just isn't the same player on the road. 

this i agree with, he's still very much a third year kid and second year starter, He hasen't gotten to a place where he has home and road consitant play, like vets do.

Rondo has definitely grown on me.  I definitely like the kid and he can be impressive at times.   But he seems to really disappear at times against tough teams.  Especially on the road.  I remember a game in Detroit last year where he was just terrible.  Probably a combo of youth and nerves.  It's likely the same reason he struggles making jumpers that supposedly he has no trouble making in practice.   

Here's his current home/away split:

Home:  13.1 points, 8.3 assists, 5.3 rebounds, 2.4 steals 55% shooting
Away:  8.3 points, 6.8 assists, 4.4 rebounds, 2 steals 47% shooting

I don't think he has the same confidence on the road.  He'll work it out eventually.

10/28   Cleveland 14 PTS, 6 ASTS, 5 REBS, 3 STL 4-5 FGA-FGM
11/4 @ Houston 10 PTS, 7 ASTS, 7 REBS, 5-10 FGA-FGM
11/20 Detroit 18 PTS, 8 ASTS, 1 REBS, 3 STL 7-11 FGA-FGM
12/1 Orlando 16 PTS, 12 ASTS, 4 REBS, 1 STL 6-10 FGA-FGM
12/5 Portland 16 PTS, 7 ASTS, 8 REBS, 2 STL 6-8 FGA-FGM
12/15 Utah 25 PTS, 8 ASTS, 9 REBS, 3 STL 7-14 FGA-FGM
12/17 @ Atlanta 15 PTS, 7 ASTS, 6 REBS, 4 STL 7-12 FGA-FGM
12/30 @ Portland 13 PTS, 7 ASTS, 6 REBS, 3 STL 5-10 FGA-FGM

In the only other three games against good teams on the road against here's what he did. Not great but not horrible.

11/9 @ Detroit 13 Pts, 5 AST, 1 REB, 2 STL, 4-5 FGA-FGM
11/23 @ Toronto 15 Pts, 4 AST, 2 REB, 2 STL, 6-11 FGA-FGM
12/25 @ Lakers 6 Pts, 12 AST, 3 REB, 1 STL, 3-11 FGA-FGM

That's 11 games against 9 of the toughest teams in the league. By my recollection there's one game where he didn't play great against a quality opponent, the Lakers game. But even then he had 12 assists and played some good defense.

So I ask, where exactly is Rondo disappearing to in games against good teams especially on the road? Or is that Lakers game still that fresh in your mind?

Nick I was just thinking back to the last couple seasons.  In "big games" Rondo seemed to choke.  The more hype the games received, the more likely he'd disappear.

The game that sticks out in my mind was last year against Detroit in Detroit.  Huge game and we won it... but Rondo was 1-7 with 3 points and 0 assists.  It was clear the kid didn't have confidence that night.  Probably our biggest regular season game of the season and Rondo disappeared.

Then the rest is just memories of the playoffs.

5/10 @ Cleveland: 3-10 ... 7 points 0 assists 0 steals
5/16 @ cleveland: 1-4 ... 2 points 5 assists, 3 turnovers
5/26 @ Detroit:  2-8 ... 4 points 4 assists 2 turnovers
6/12 @ Lakers:  5 points 2 assists
6/15 @ Lakers:  1-7 ... 3 points 3 assists...

And I mean when Rondo struggles, the team struggles.   I just have an impression of him as letting his nerves get the better of him in tough situations.  Luckily the Celtics don't come across a lot of tough situations...

Re: Phil Jackson exploited Rondo, rest of the league took notice...
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2009, 07:30:43 PM »

Offline crownsy

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8469
  • Tommy Points: 157
Rondo just isn't the same player on the road. 

this i agree with, he's still very much a third year kid and second year starter, He hasen't gotten to a place where he has home and road consitant play, like vets do.

Rondo has definitely grown on me.  I definitely like the kid and he can be impressive at times.   But he seems to really disappear at times against tough teams.  Especially on the road.   I remember a game in Detroit last year where he was just terrible.  Probably a combo of youth and nerves.  It's likely the same reason he struggles making jumpers that supposedly he has no trouble making in practice.   

Here's his current home/away split:

Home:  13.1 points, 8.3 assists, 5.3 rebounds, 2.4 steals 55% shooting
Away:  8.3 points, 6.8 assists, 4.4 rebounds, 2 steals 47% shooting

I don't think he has the same confidence on the road.  He'll work it out eventually.

10/28   Cleveland 14 PTS, 6 ASTS, 5 REBS, 3 STL 4-5 FGA-FGM
11/4 @ Houston 10 PTS, 7 ASTS, 7 REBS, 5-10 FGA-FGM
11/20 Detroit 18 PTS, 8 ASTS, 1 REBS, 3 STL 7-11 FGA-FGM
12/1 Orlando 16 PTS, 12 ASTS, 4 REBS, 1 STL 6-10 FGA-FGM
12/5 Portland 16 PTS, 7 ASTS, 8 REBS, 2 STL 6-8 FGA-FGM
12/15 Utah 25 PTS, 8 ASTS, 9 REBS, 3 STL 7-14 FGA-FGM
12/17 @ Atlanta 15 PTS, 7 ASTS, 6 REBS, 4 STL 7-12 FGA-FGM
12/30 @ Portland 13 PTS, 7 ASTS, 6 REBS, 3 STL 5-10 FGA-FGM

In the only other three games against good teams on the road against here's what he did. Not great but not horrible.

11/9 @ Detroit 13 Pts, 5 AST, 1 REB, 2 STL, 4-5 FGA-FGM
11/23 @ Toronto 15 Pts, 4 AST, 2 REB, 2 STL, 6-11 FGA-FGM
12/25 @ Lakers 6 Pts, 12 AST, 3 REB, 1 STL, 3-11 FGA-FGM

That's 11 games against 9 of the toughest teams in the league. By my recollection there's one game where he didn't play great against a quality opponent, the Lakers game. But even then he had 12 assists and played some good defense.

So I ask, where exactly is Rondo disappearing to in games against good teams especially on the road? Or is that Lakers game still that fresh in your mind?

Nick I was just thinking back to the last couple seasons.  In "big games" Rondo seemed to choke.  The more hype the games received, the more likely he'd disappear.

The game that sticks out in my mind was last year against Detroit in Detroit.  Huge game and we won it... but Rondo was 1-7 with 3 points and 0 assists.  It was clear the kid didn't have confidence that night.  Probably our biggest regular season game of the season and Rondo disappeared.

Then the rest is just memories of the playoffs.

5/10 @ Cleveland: 3-10 ... 7 points 0 assists 0 steals
5/16 @ cleveland: 1-4 ... 2 points 5 assists, 3 turnovers
5/26 @ Detroit:  2-8 ... 4 points 4 assists 2 turnovers
6/12 @ Lakers:  5 points 2 assists
6/15 @ Lakers:  1-7 ... 3 points 3 assists...

And I mean when Rondo struggles, the team struggles.   I just have an impression of him as letting his nerves get the better of him in tough situations.  Luckily the Celtics don't come across a lot of tough situations...


but thats misleading to a degree, what about all the games in the playoffs where he played extremely well? were those not big moments? how about the back to back threes in clevland to name a specific moment.

I think your over thinking it lar, you already had the right call. He's a young player. young players, in general, struggle with thier home and away splits.

He's still a young player, only a second year starter. inconstancy, as you pointed out, is something thats overcome with experience.
“I will hurt you for this. A day will come when you think you’re safe and happy and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth. And you will know the debt is paid.” – Tyrion

Re: Phil Jackson exploited Rondo, rest of the league took notice...
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2009, 08:10:08 PM »

Offline billysan

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3875
  • Tommy Points: 178
The big difference when we played the Lakers this year was them having Bynum back in the middle. This put KG on Pau and Perk on Bynum. Pierce on Odom and Ray kept getting switched between Kobe and Derek Fisher.

Last Year with Pau at center, you had KG on Odom and Pierce was able to feast on Radmonovich. They also didnt have quite as healthy a bench and relied heavily on Luke Walton who we abused.

The point is, Kobe played D on Rondo in the finals a few times as well, but that wasnt the difference in the game this year from my point of view. I know that statistically Perk outplayed Bynum etc, etc, but every time KG played help D, Pau scored in the lane or passed to someone open for a bucket.

I know I dont even have to bring up Posey and PJ. I dont think the whole Kobe on Rondo thing is 'the reason we lost to the Lakers' or that Phil Jackson exploited us at all. I think he had more and healthier players. We were short handed (on the bench) by comparison and that is what is being exploited by the rest of the league.

Just my opinion. 8)
"First fix their hearts" -Eizo Shimabuku

Re: Phil Jackson exploited Rondo, rest of the league took notice...
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2009, 08:12:18 PM »

Offline crownsy

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8469
  • Tommy Points: 157
The big difference when we played the Lakers this year was them having Bynum back in the middle. This put KG on Pau and Perk on Bynum. Pierce on Odom and Ray kept getting switched between Kobe and Derek Fisher.

Last Year with Pau at center, you had KG on Odom and Pierce was able to feast on Radmonovich. They also didnt have quite as healthy a bench and relied heavily on Luke Walton who we abused.

The point is, Kobe played D on Rondo in the finals a few times as well, but that wasnt the difference in the game this year from my point of view. I know that statistically Perk outplayed Bynum etc, etc, but every time KG played help D, Pau scored in the lane or passed to someone open for a bucket.

I know I dont even have to bring up Posey and PJ. I dont think the whole Kobe on Rondo thing is 'the reason we lost to the Lakers' or that Phil Jackson exploited us at all. I think he had more and healthier players. We were short handed (on the bench) by comparison.

Just my opinion. 8)

I honestly didn't think bynum changed the dynamic at all, they are a pretty good team playing at home you know.

Not really surprised by the lakers loss, would have been nice to steal it. Bit put off by the let down since.
“I will hurt you for this. A day will come when you think you’re safe and happy and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth. And you will know the debt is paid.” – Tyrion

Re: Phil Jackson exploited Rondo, rest of the league took notice...
« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2009, 08:16:03 PM »

Offline nickagneta

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 48120
  • Tommy Points: 8794
  • President of Jaylen Brown Fan Club
Rondo just isn't the same player on the road. 

this i agree with, he's still very much a third year kid and second year starter, He hasen't gotten to a place where he has home and road consitant play, like vets do.

Rondo has definitely grown on me.  I definitely like the kid and he can be impressive at times.   But he seems to really disappear at times against tough teams.  Especially on the road.   I remember a game in Detroit last year where he was just terrible.  Probably a combo of youth and nerves.  It's likely the same reason he struggles making jumpers that supposedly he has no trouble making in practice.   

Here's his current home/away split:

Home:  13.1 points, 8.3 assists, 5.3 rebounds, 2.4 steals 55% shooting
Away:  8.3 points, 6.8 assists, 4.4 rebounds, 2 steals 47% shooting

I don't think he has the same confidence on the road.  He'll work it out eventually.

10/28   Cleveland 14 PTS, 6 ASTS, 5 REBS, 3 STL 4-5 FGA-FGM
11/4 @ Houston 10 PTS, 7 ASTS, 7 REBS, 5-10 FGA-FGM
11/20 Detroit 18 PTS, 8 ASTS, 1 REBS, 3 STL 7-11 FGA-FGM
12/1 Orlando 16 PTS, 12 ASTS, 4 REBS, 1 STL 6-10 FGA-FGM
12/5 Portland 16 PTS, 7 ASTS, 8 REBS, 2 STL 6-8 FGA-FGM
12/15 Utah 25 PTS, 8 ASTS, 9 REBS, 3 STL 7-14 FGA-FGM
12/17 @ Atlanta 15 PTS, 7 ASTS, 6 REBS, 4 STL 7-12 FGA-FGM
12/30 @ Portland 13 PTS, 7 ASTS, 6 REBS, 3 STL 5-10 FGA-FGM

In the only other three games against good teams on the road against here's what he did. Not great but not horrible.

11/9 @ Detroit 13 Pts, 5 AST, 1 REB, 2 STL, 4-5 FGA-FGM
11/23 @ Toronto 15 Pts, 4 AST, 2 REB, 2 STL, 6-11 FGA-FGM
12/25 @ Lakers 6 Pts, 12 AST, 3 REB, 1 STL, 3-11 FGA-FGM

That's 11 games against 9 of the toughest teams in the league. By my recollection there's one game where he didn't play great against a quality opponent, the Lakers game. But even then he had 12 assists and played some good defense.

So I ask, where exactly is Rondo disappearing to in games against good teams especially on the road? Or is that Lakers game still that fresh in your mind?

Nick I was just thinking back to the last couple seasons.  In "big games" Rondo seemed to choke.  The more hype the games received, the more likely he'd disappear.

The game that sticks out in my mind was last year against Detroit in Detroit.  Huge game and we won it... but Rondo was 1-7 with 3 points and 0 assists.  It was clear the kid didn't have confidence that night.  Probably our biggest regular season game of the season and Rondo disappeared.

Then the rest is just memories of the playoffs.

5/10 @ Cleveland: 3-10 ... 7 points 0 assists 0 steals
5/16 @ cleveland: 1-4 ... 2 points 5 assists, 3 turnovers
5/26 @ Detroit:  2-8 ... 4 points 4 assists 2 turnovers
6/12 @ Lakers:  5 points 2 assists
6/15 @ Lakers:  1-7 ... 3 points 3 assists...

And I mean when Rondo struggles, the team struggles.   I just have an impression of him as letting his nerves get the better of him in tough situations.  Luckily the Celtics don't come across a lot of tough situations...


but thats misleading to a degree, what about all the games in the playoffs where he played extremely well? were those not big moments? how about the back to back threes in clevland to name a specific moment.

I think your over thinking it lar, you already had the right call. He's a young player. young players, in general, struggle with thier home and away splits.

He's still a young player, only a second year starter. inconstancy, as you pointed out, is something thats overcome with experience.
Yeah, I don't disagree with the home and away observation, I think it's very poignant. But like crownsy says, it's more than likely an age an experience situation where Rajon obviously justs feels more comfortable in his own court with his crowd behind him. Experience will correct that. Lest we forget, he's still only 22 years of age.

What I didn't agree with is that Rondo disappeared against good teams, especially when on the road. I think especially this year Rondo really comes to play when he plays better competition. I think the playoffs last year went a long way towards maturing Rondo when it comes to good competition and big games.

And I seem to remember some really big Rondo games in the playoffs.

Game 6 LA (Do games come any bigger than a championship clincher) 21 PTS, 8 AST, 7 REB, 6 STL,
Game 2 LA 4 PTS, 16 AST, 6 REB, 2 STL
Game 1 LA 15 PTS, 7 AST, 5 REB
Game 5 Detroit 7 PTS, 13 AST, 6 REB, 4 STL
Game 2 Detroit 10 PTS, 8 AST, 9 REB, 3 STL
Game 1 Detroit 11 PTS, 7 AST, 2 REB, 5 STL
Game 7 Cleveland 8 PTS, 8 AST, 8 REB, 1 STL
Game 5 Cleveland 20 PTS, 13 AST, 2 REB, 2 STL
Game 4 Cleveland 15 PTS, 4 AST, 3 REB, 2 STL
Game 1 Cleveland 15 PTS, 6 AST, 5 REB, 1 STL

And he really didn't have a completely horrible game in the Atlanta series but was very mediocre as was just about everyone else in Game 3 and Game 6 in Atlanta. In all the other games in that series he was [dang] good.

Again this helps to prove the home and away difference in Rondo's game as almost all of Rondo's bad playoff games were on the road and his best games all seemed to be at home. But all those playoff games were big games against the best of competition and Rondo came a huge quite a bit. And I think it's carried over to big time games and competition this year as Rondo is usually quite good to great in games versus the best of the league.

Re: Phil Jackson exploited Rondo, rest of the league took notice...
« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2009, 08:41:38 PM »

Offline billysan

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3875
  • Tommy Points: 178

I honestly didn't think bynum changed the dynamic at all, they are a pretty good team playing at home you know.

Not really surprised by the lakers loss, would have been nice to steal it. Bit put off by the let down since.

It is hard to quantify all the reasons, but it just seems like it was a big contributing factor. Possibly as big a factor as missing Posey and PJ. If it were mathematics, I would feel like they were at +1 and we were at -2 for a cumulative strength score of -3 against us (compared to the finals) before the opening tip.

They are an excellent team playing at home and on the road, I definitely wasnt surprised at the loss. I was very disappointed because it somewhat justified my fears that we didnt have the pieces in place we had in the finals and we were in a way handicapped.

That feeling is getting worse as the season goes on. All great teams have needed competent bench depth to persist beyond a season or two of dominance or they fade away quickly. We are no different IMO and to be frank, we enhanced our bench last year midseason, otherwise we may not have enjoyed the same level of success. I look forward to the same 'enhancement' this season. 8)
"First fix their hearts" -Eizo Shimabuku

Re: Phil Jackson exploited Rondo, rest of the league took notice...
« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2009, 09:00:36 PM »

Offline FatjohnReturns

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1073
  • Tommy Points: 120

Re: Phil Jackson exploited Rondo, rest of the league took notice...
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2009, 08:27:50 AM »

Offline Sweet17

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1806
  • Tommy Points: 107
I have to agree some with the OP. The thing with Rondo is that when he is "on" and the team is running he is a dynamic difference making guy. However when he starts off slow - he never seems to turn it on and in the half-court game some teams can take advantage of him.

I think Marbury will counter most of this. Then we just need a good big backup and a good 3/4 type of backup. <g>

Re: Phil Jackson exploited Rondo, rest of the league took notice...
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2009, 08:33:39 AM »

Offline CoachBo

  • NCE
  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6069
  • Tommy Points: 336
The only beef I have with Rondo is his perimeter shooting - it's not getting any better, and it has to.
Coined the CelticsBlog term, "Euromistake."

Re: Phil Jackson exploited Rondo, rest of the league took notice...
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2009, 10:22:52 AM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
I have to agree some with the OP. The thing with Rondo is that when he is "on" and the team is running he is a dynamic difference making guy. However when he starts off slow - he never seems to turn it on and in the half-court game some teams can take advantage of him.

  It's just a feeling but it seems to me that Rondo's more likely to have a  big 3rd quarter than he is to start out the game hot.

Re: Phil Jackson exploited Rondo, rest of the league took notice...
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2009, 11:41:17 AM »

Offline coco

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2682
  • Tommy Points: 146

To me, the most disconcerting thing about Rondo's play is the huge increase of TOs.  To tell you the truth, any scoring from Rajon has always been gravy.  We do get in trouble when we try to make him too agressive and he gets the wrong message thinking he needs to score.  To me, TOs is what has been worrisome.  He has always been one of the league best assists/TOs ratio....but not getting it done this past few weeks.

Re: Phil Jackson exploited Rondo, rest of the league took notice...
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2009, 11:45:56 AM »

Offline nickagneta

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 48120
  • Tommy Points: 8794
  • President of Jaylen Brown Fan Club

To me, the most disconcerting thing about Rondo's play is the huge increase of TOs.  To tell you the truth, any scoring from Rajon has always been gravy.  We do get in trouble when we try to make him too agressive and he gets the wrong message thinking he needs to score.  To me, TOs is what has been worrisome.  He has always been one of the league best assists/TOs ratio....but not getting it done this past few weeks.
While I agree that recently he has been pretty sloppy with the ball, he is still 12th in the league in AST/TO ratio at 2.97, has the largest such ratio on the Celtics, and was once as high as fifth in the league in this stat earlier this year.

This whole team is in a funk. When they come out, and that includes Rondo, his AST/TO ratio will increase to it's former height, the raft of recent TO's will decrease and the Celtics will return to glory.

Re: Phil Jackson exploited Rondo, rest of the league took notice...
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2009, 03:47:06 PM »

Offline Sweet17

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1806
  • Tommy Points: 107
Quote
While I agree that recently he has been pretty sloppy with the ball, he is still 12th in the league in AST/TO ratio at 2.97, has the largest such ratio on the Celtics, and was once as high as fifth in the league in this stat earlier this year.

Rondo's is a fine passer. The reason for his turnover spike is that he loses confidence offensive (and he should with that jumpshot of his) and when teams play him smart he forces passes where a normal PG would just shoot.

I know this sounds insane but I can't wait for Marbury to arrive..

Pete


Re: Phil Jackson exploited Rondo, rest of the league took notice...
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2009, 03:55:38 PM »

Offline RAcker

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3892
  • Tommy Points: 69
  • Law mercy!
Can we see more of the floater please, Mr. Rondo?