NBA 2019-2020 season thread

[RPGenerate]

Hoping for a Heat loss tonight. Will just be a half a game behind them for second place.

[Phantom255x]

Man I feel like every Clippers game I watch or at least follow, they got someone missing. Sometimes George, sometimes Kawhi, sometimes both, sometimes even some of their key bench guys. 

[gouki88]

Man I feel like every Clippers game I watch or at least follow, they got someone missing. Sometimes George, sometimes Kawhi, sometimes both, sometimes even some of their key bench guys.

Like us!

[Briantir]

Man Clippers are good and Miami is the real deal the East playoffs is gonna be a blood bath for the teams who finish 3-6 first round will be extremely difficult matchup.

[bdm860]

So Butler went out with an ankle sprain, and was ruled out to return.  The kind of game it was, I would think if he could return, he would have.

The Heat have a not easy stretch coming up:  ORL, BOS, ORL, PHI, LAC.

If Butler has to miss a couple of games, could be a chance for C's to gain a couple of games on them.  Even if Butler's healthy, still a chance for C's to make up some ground.

Edit - play here.

[gouki88]

So Butler went out with an ankle sprain, and was ruled out to return.  The kind of game it was, I would think if he could return, he would have.

The Heat have a not easy stretch coming up:  ORL, BOS, ORL, PHI, LAC.

If Butler has to miss a couple of games, could be a chance for C's to gain a couple of games on them.  Even if Butler's healthy, still a chance for C's to make up some ground.

Edit - play here.

Nunn is also day to day, so there is a slim chance he could miss the game against us.

[SparzWizard]

Man Clippers are good and Miami is the real deal the East playoffs is gonna be a blood bath for the teams who finish 3-6 first round will be extremely difficult matchup.

It's important to avoid the 76ers and Heat in the first-round. Give me Pacers, Raptors, Magic, Nets...any of the lesser teams.

[Somebody]

Zach Lowe just had Young in over Tatum on his all-star team. I"m so very mad about him getting in over Tatum/Brown even when it hasn't happened yet. (and might not happen given coaches vote reserves)

I'd be somewhat less mad about Beal, and even more mad about Lavine. 

Because when you can get the offensive engine of the second worst offense in the league in the all-star game you have to do it. 

Hard to be mad when Young is so statistically brilliant.  I mean 29.2 p, 8.6 a, 4.7 r, 1.2 s with a TS% of 59.4.  Obviously a sieve on defense, but offense is just so much more important and Young is absolutely a brilliant offensive player.

I really don't understand this take when you've been pumping up Tatum due to his excellence in the +/- family of metrics, they mostly agree that offence isn't that much more valuable than defence (it's more valuable than defence, but the gap is like 6 points to 5 according to RAPM), ntm that a big argument for Tatum being an All-Star calibre wing this season is his incredible defensive +/- stats in a free safety role.

But yes I think Young is good enough to make the All-Star team, he's one of the best non MVP PGs on offence right now imo (strong box and non-box stats to go along with positive stuff from the eye test) and that helps him grade out as an All-Star (albeit borderline due to how much his defence sucks) in my eyes.

Offense is far more important than defense.  I'd say at least 60/40 if not more like 70/30.  It is why guys like Curry, Harden, Irving, IT4 (in Boston), etc. can be MVP caliber players despite being atrocious on defense.  That isn't to say defense isn't important, but I'm taking the offensive beast 10 out of 10 times over the defensive beast (assuming near equal talent levels and no clearly better roster fit).

The spread is definitely around 60/40 at best, there's no historical evidence of the spread being as extreme as 70/30 unless you only gawk at box scores. Out of the four you mentioned, only Harden fits your criteria (I'm pretty baffled at you constantly railing on Curry's defence tbh, your beloved Magic Johnson would be an ice cream cone if Curry was atrocious on defence), so I don't see many cases of an MVP calibre player being garbage defensively.

And I'd do the same if offence was just as portable as defence, your assumption ignores the reality of both skills (defence fits on any kind of team while offence really doesn't). But yes offence is more valuable than defence, the gap is just not as much as you'd like to believe.

The following people have won MVP's in the last 20 years: Harden, Westbrook, Curry x2, Rose, Dirk, Nash x2, Iverson. Those guys all have varying degrees of defensive prowess (or lack thereof), but they are all significantly better offensive players then they were defensive players.  Sure guys like Antetokounmpo, Durant, James, Bryant, Garnett, Duncan, and O'Neal are elite level defenders, but they were also as good or better offensively. 

So when I say offense is significantly more important to defense, that is what I'm talking about.  The great defenders, like Rudy Gobert, while they compete and win DPOY awards don't get anywhere near the MVP award because they offensively are poor and offense matters.

This is also true if you look at the 3 best players on NBA champions.  They by and large have one of the uber players at the top (i.e. Lebron, Durant, Duncan, Bryant, etc.), but the other 2 top players are almost always more offensively oriented players.  The last time a NBA champion had an elite defensive player in their top 3 (that wasn't also elite offensively) win a NBA title was the first Warriors (Green who was an excellent secondary offensive player with his passing) and their best player Curry who obviously is not one of those uber elite offensive and defensive players (Green was 4th best on the 2 most recent Warriors titles).  Before the Warriors the last time a team had one of those defensive oriented players in their top 3 was Tyson Chandler on the Mavs and before that was the Pistons with Ben Wallace (who may have in fact been their best player and are clearly an exception to all forms of title teams). 

So when I say things like offense is far more important to winning than defense, I'm just going off of the traditional mold of who wins NBA championship and who wins the MVP.  Those 2 things tell you offense matters far more than defense.  The best teams and the best players are both elite on offense and defense, but if you could only have one, take offense because at the end of the day you win when you score more than the other team and it is easier to score than to stop someone else from scoring.

Out of the MVPs you mentioned, only Nash, Curry and LeBron had more impactful offences than the defences of the best defenders ever, while players like Antetokounmpo, Garnett and Duncan were more impactful defensively. Defence matters a lot, Garnett was the best player in the world in 08 mainly because he spearheaded a historic defence in Boston while Duncan was the best player in the world in 02 mainly because he was the anchor of a dynastic defence, not because they were setting the world on fire offensively. You could argue that it's more difficult to find that type of transcendent defender who could have a defensive impact rivaling the offences of a Dirk/Kobe/Shaq (only Duncan/Garnett/Robinson/Hakeem/Wilt/Thurmond/Walton really come to mind when you talk about non Russell defenders), but it doesn't change the fact that the gap between offence and defence isn't as big as you're making it out to be, which was what I was arguing about (not how easy it is to build a title winning team with offence/defence).

[GreenFaith1819]

Luka's been blessed with some gifts.

Some things you just can't teach.

I've been here on this earth for a little over 50 years and he's going to have a LONG productive and successful career and win a banner or two.

Opposing coaches WILL throw stuff at Luka. It WILL slow him down - frustrate him some.

He WILL get techs.

This stuff will ONLY fuel him to come at you HARDER. He has "THAT" hunger about him.

Is Luka Doncic unstoppable? Of course not. Will he need DAL to continue to place pieces around him? Of course.

Make NO MISTAKE about it, though - Luka Doncic is the REAL DEAL.

I don't see anyone questioning Luka's talent but claiming he's the #2 player in the NBA like someone did is a considerable overreach at this point.  As others have said, he needs to show it in the playoffs first.  It is interesting to note that Luka is shooting 32.2% from 3 which is the same as Giannis.  Last season, he shot 32.7% from 3.  He also slumped considerably in March (39.0%/22.5%/65.1%).

Well....I don't know if it IS an overreach, being that Luka has missed Kristaps for extended periods this season.

Luka has already been the focus of opposing defenses to a large extent.

Luka doesn't have an Anthony Davis (See LeBron)....a Kris Middleton (See Greek Freak).....a Russell Westbrook (see Harden)....

Imagine if he had NY Porzingis for 85 percent of DAL's games this season....imagine IF he had one of the weapons alongside him that I just named above....

Luka is doing THIS without a bonafide number 2...Kristaps SHOULD be that but he isn't quite yet.

Luka DOES need to prove himself in the playoffs, granted but I KNOW he will.

I sincerely hope that Luka gets a Kareem, McHale, Chief or Worthy around him one day soon...a healthy Kristaps could go a LONG way but I'm gunning for the young man.

You're really overplaying it. Porzingis has played 33 of 44 games.  AD has played 38 of 45.  I'd put Middleton and KP on the same level.  I wouldn't consider having Westbrook a plus especially paired up with Harden.   

A couple years ago Embiid in his first full season carried the Sixers to 52 wins and the 2nd round in the playoffs with Saric (2nd year), Covington (former D leaguer), Simmons (1st year) and Reddick as the other starters. KP is much more of a bonafide number 2 than any of them were at the time.  And Embiid had (and has) a lot less basketball experience than Luka does. 

Embiid, AD, Giannis, Kawhi are dominated 2 way players.  Luka's defensive rating is 111. 3 and last season it was 110.6.  Lebron's is 103.1 this season.

Kristaps has CLEARLY not been himself this year...he's had a few bright spots but for someone who is only 24 YO and just approaching his prime he has NOT been NY Kristaps, yet. I'm sure he is learning the new system and working his way into game shape.

Embiid? While certainly a top talent dude has yet to prove to me that he can stay on the court much - especially during the playoffs....

And who needs NBA commentators to motivate you to play your best (see Shaq, Kenny and Charles). Dude is playing for the 76ers - a storied franchise. With all that talent he shouldn't be loafing around.........

AD? Not sure....the furthest he's ever taken a franchise is the 2nd round of the playoffs....needs LeBron to showcase his skills....

Give me Giannis, Kawhi and LeBron off your list...this is what Gouki and I already discussed and I agreed with him.

Luka clearly being a top offensive talent in the league right now but needing to work on his defense. I can agree with a top 4-6 ranking overall for Luka. Dude doesn't even turn 21 until the end of next month.

As I said before - he will prove himself in the playoffs. I'm certain that in this process he WILL get knocked down, around...but he WILL get back up. He WILL learn from his mistakes. Dude is HUNGRY. He will help DAL win a banner or 2. He WILL go down as being a Generational Talent.

Just pull up crazy ol' GreenFaith1819's post from here about 15 years from now and you'll see.

[CelticsPoetry]

 

With that being said - do you (or anyone else here) believe DAL would have the same record (or success) with Trae and Luka switching spots?

Change the past and let ATL keep Luka. Let DAL select Trae.

Where do you / Celticsstrong - believe DAL / ATL would be at if these two were selected differently?

Would ATL be better with Luka?

Atlanta would certainly be a lot better and Dallas would certainly be a lot worse. Doncic is a top 2 player in the league this season next to Giannis. Trae Young is a top 25 player.

Huge difference between an MVP candidate and an All-Star. Like the difference between Giannis (the other top 2 player in the league) and Middleton or Harden and Donovan Mitchell. Imagine how much Houston would drop off if those two swapped places. And how much better Utah would become.

Trae is awesome in his own right but Luka is on a whole different level than him.

Luka is not a top 2 player, regular season is just practice let's see him play at an elite level when defenses are trapping him he's getting doubled coaches actually game plan against him...

Playoffs is when u see whose got it and who doesn't.

Please inform yourself on Luka's past achievements and where he played before you spout nonsense like that.

Am I missing something?  He played in the EuroLeague before.  Sure he won MVP and Final Four MVP there, and while nice, aren't really any indicator of greatness.

Those are honors held by NBA role players and guys who couldn't cut it in the league, like Ekpe Udoh, Athony Parker, Trajan Langdon, Andres Nocioni, Jan Vesely, Nemanja Bjelica, etc.

He led his team to a Euroleague title and he did it at age 19 - the closest to that is Teodosič at 23, others won it at 28, 29 or higher. I know Americans don't respect other leagues, but Euroleague is the second strongest in the world. He also helped Slovenia win the Eurobasket title in 2017 (at 18 years of age). Just as a reminder - Slovenia has only 2 million inhabitants and they beat some true basketball powerhouses. After being doubted heavily for his ''lack'' of athleticism, he went on to put up some impressive numbers in his rookie year (21/8/6) and keeps breaking records in the youngest-to-category. This year he is averaging an absurd 29/10/9 at 20 years old. He has a track record of not only making teams better and putting up gaudy numbers, he actually leads his teams to wins. Simply put, he is a generational talent who dominates the game with his smarts. I think due to his track record the burden of proof is on you. There is nothing to suggest he is a choker or shies away from big moments (cough Lebron cough). Believe me, I see a lot of Eurobasket (not Euroleague) games and they are an absolute bloodbath. Coaches do gameplan for players like him, because it's a win or go home type of competition.

The burden of proof should be on me for what?

To show that Luka is not currently the 2nd best player in the NBA?

That we've yet to see him perform in the NBA playoffs (which for the record, I'm excited to see)?

Or that EuroLeague and EuroBasket success doesn't correlate to NBA success?

Burden of proof to show us an indication that he might choke in the playoffs, anything that makes you think he would. I'd say he's innocent until proven guilty. I wouldnt exactly say that about the Euro stuff. Of course there are players who had some success there and didnt make it the NBA, but most of the players who perform best there, have very good NBA careers (Gasol brothers, Rubio, Parker, Batum, Dragic, Doncic, Porzingis, Nowitzki...). To top it all off, he had major success as a teenager, which is what makes him so special. I'd like to see a top draft prospect do what he did at 17 or 18 in those situations.

[nickagneta]

That a 17 year old could dominate a men's professional league tells me more about that league than it does the individual player.

[Ogaju]

That a 17 year old could dominate a men's professional league tells me more about that league than it does the individual player.

In most sports there are outliers, especially the sports that do not depend on physical development such as football. Sports that depend more on stamina and skill rather than brute strength have outliers that have dominated at a young age.

[Rondo9]

We'll see what Luka can do in the playoffs.

[tazzmaniac]

With that being said - do you (or anyone else here) believe DAL would have the same record (or success) with Trae and Luka switching spots?

Change the past and let ATL keep Luka. Let DAL select Trae.

Where do you / Celticsstrong - believe DAL / ATL would be at if these two were selected differently?

Would ATL be better with Luka?

Atlanta would certainly be a lot better and Dallas would certainly be a lot worse. Doncic is a top 2 player in the league this season next to Giannis. Trae Young is a top 25 player.

Huge difference between an MVP candidate and an All-Star. Like the difference between Giannis (the other top 2 player in the league) and Middleton or Harden and Donovan Mitchell. Imagine how much Houston would drop off if those two swapped places. And how much better Utah would become.

Trae is awesome in his own right but Luka is on a whole different level than him.

Luka is not a top 2 player, regular season is just practice let's see him play at an elite level when defenses are trapping him he's getting doubled coaches actually game plan against him...

Playoffs is when u see whose got it and who doesn't.

Please inform yourself on Luka's past achievements and where he played before you spout nonsense like that.

Am I missing something?  He played in the EuroLeague before.  Sure he won MVP and Final Four MVP there, and while nice, aren't really any indicator of greatness.

Those are honors held by NBA role players and guys who couldn't cut it in the league, like Ekpe Udoh, Athony Parker, Trajan Langdon, Andres Nocioni, Jan Vesely, Nemanja Bjelica, etc.

He led his team to a Euroleague title and he did it at age 19 - the closest to that is Teodosič at 23, others won it at 28, 29 or higher. I know Americans don't respect other leagues, but Euroleague is the second strongest in the world. He also helped Slovenia win the Eurobasket title in 2017 (at 18 years of age). Just as a reminder - Slovenia has only 2 million inhabitants and they beat some true basketball powerhouses. After being doubted heavily for his ''lack'' of athleticism, he went on to put up some impressive numbers in his rookie year (21/8/6) and keeps breaking records in the youngest-to-category. This year he is averaging an absurd 29/10/9 at 20 years old. He has a track record of not only making teams better and putting up gaudy numbers, he actually leads his teams to wins. Simply put, he is a generational talent who dominates the game with his smarts. I think due to his track record the burden of proof is on you. There is nothing to suggest he is a choker or shies away from big moments (cough Lebron cough). Believe me, I see a lot of Eurobasket (not Euroleague) games and they are an absolute bloodbath. Coaches do gameplan for players like him, because it's a win or go home type of competition.

The burden of proof should be on me for what?

To show that Luka is not currently the 2nd best player in the NBA?

That we've yet to see him perform in the NBA playoffs (which for the record, I'm excited to see)?

Or that EuroLeague and EuroBasket success doesn't correlate to NBA success?

Burden of proof to show us an indication that he might choke in the playoffs, anything that makes you think he would. I'd say he's innocent until proven guilty. I wouldnt exactly say that about the Euro stuff. Of course there are players who had some success there and didnt make it the NBA, but most of the players who perform best there, have very good NBA careers (Gasol brothers, Rubio, Parker, Batum, Dragic, Doncic, Porzingis, Nowitzki...). To top it all off, he had major success as a teenager, which is what makes him so special. I'd like to see a top draft prospect do what he did at 17 or 18 in those situations.

That's just backwards.  If you claim someone is the 2nd best player in the league, the burden is on you to back it up unless its obvious.  Luka isn't the 2nd best NBA player at this point in time. 

[Who]

I don't think Luka gets enough credit for how well he has played this season.


29.1ppg 9.6rpg 9.1apg on a 59.4% TS%


The engine on a team that is on track to break the All-Time offensive rating with a mark of 117.6 points per 100 possessions which would best the Warriors marks of recent years, the Nash Suns teams & the Magic Lakers teams of the 80s.


People went crazy when Nash led those offenses in Phoenix. He had Amare and Marion next to him. Porzingis has done well but has he played as well as either one of those guys? Nevermind both?

What Doncic has done so far this year is incredible.

He deserves MVP consideration.