CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: playdream on October 20, 2018, 04:39:58 AM
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1.I hope Tatum's wrist is ok
2.Irving played hard and his touch was back some but not quiet there yet, a liability on D
especially team defense
3.Kawhi didn't look like a superstar, very solid all-star level wing to me, not a good passer so we
can consider to double when he switch on Kyrie or whoever need help
4.Brown defended Kawhi pretty well, he is good at these one-on-one defense, jumpers are
promising but ft still very inconsistent as well as passing
5.AL defend Kawhi the best, but Valanciunas has his number, and on offense he didn't do much
6.Hayward took a huge step back to his all-star form tonight, best thing in this game
7.Rozier, he should drive (and kick)more on nights his shots ain't wet which isn't a rare thing
It's clear their offense likes to attack the paint and play inside-out games (and Kawhi iso), you can almost be certain they will pass out the first drive, first to corner and to the 45 angle.
It worked great against us so far, we need shot blockers (and rebounders) to welcome those drives in order to counter, maybe put Williams out there
In match-up perspective:
Morris x -not a good team defender to handle their ball movement and will mostly be contested jumpers on O
AL Δ -only but huge problem is Valanciunas always beat him on the boards, should be on Ibaka
Hayward O -Very effective on both ends against Raptors
Rozier x -not until he can attack the paint as Kyrie, should play only when he is hot
Kyrie O -I will take his O over his lack of D
Tatum O -just too good to not play
Brown O -put him on Kawhi
Baynes Δ -good presence in paint against Raptors, put him on Valanciunas but can't be on Ibaka if his shots are falling
Smart Δ -perfect on D but will need a rim running big to unlock his bread and butter PnR game, otherwise a minus on O
Overall a tough loss but not too much to worry about as we all know Brad will find a answer and now we have the final missing piece in Robert Williams
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I actually thought Irving’s D looked ok. I remember a nice block he had during the game. His offense looked really good. He had that crazy up and under layup.
I disagree about Leonard. IMO he looked like the top 5 player he was in the past. A beast. He had what around 30 points?
Great game by Horford. Near triple double.
Very encouraging signs by Hayward. If he didn’t have his minutes restriction (say 34 minutes instead of 24) we might have won this game.
Rozier struggled at times driving to the hoop. I wish he was better at this.
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I hate when we get into that switch everything on defense even though you aren't out of position or fighting through a screen mentality. There were so many times where there was no need to switch but we did anyways and got burned.
I felt bad for tatum, his 1st 3-4 shots were wet but were waved off due to a couple terrible moving screens they called and then the foul on baynes while he was shooting. I could've sworn it was if the foul was committed during or after the shot attempt it was an and-1 not after the release but either way he looked good out there all night. We are witnessing Jayson blossom into a stone cold killer right now and I'm loving it!
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Against the top 10 teams , Irving needs to play offense like a star ....otherwise winning is a 50/50 chance .
Hayward looked more confident . His timing is returning . We need his offense if Irving can't score.
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3.Kawhi didn't look like a superstar, very solid all-star level wing to me, not a good passer so we
can consider to double when he switch on Kyrie or whoever need help
You must have feel asleep at the start of the second half when he was dominating us.
I think they have acclimated to the their new talent faster than we have to our returning talent. I think we will be fine.
But it is clear to me, that they are a much bigger threat to us than Philly which is a pretender not a contender.
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Most encouraging- Hayward, Tatum, Irving
Steady - Hofford, Baynes
Have limitations- Rozzier, Jaylen, Smart
Crazy (sometimes good, sometimes hurts you) - Morris
I agree with a comment above; without Hayward minutes limitations, Cs would have won. Cs looked so crazy good with Hayward, Irving, Tatum on the he floor.
Toronto got a lot of their points by driving to the paint. Cs just couldn’t get a stop. I think our offense is ahead of our defense....as crazy as that sounds. Cs are going to be scary good when all cylinders are firing.
...having said that, Toronto is better that I expected. I’ll have to watch them play a little more to make my mind up about them.
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3.Kawhi didn't look like a superstar, very solid all-star level wing to me, not a good passer so we
can consider to double when he switch on Kyrie or whoever need help
You must have feel asleep at the start of the second half when he was dominating us.
I think they have acclimated to the their new talent faster than we have to our returning talent. I think we will be fine.
But it is clear to me, that they are a much bigger threat to us than Philly which is a pretender not a contender.
TP.
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It's going to take time for the offense to gel. There was a lot of unselfish play which was nice to see, but they weren't really setting each other up for easy baskets. Toronto's offense looked much more in sync. It's not something I'm worried about because as long as they have the right attitudes along with Stevens coaching them, they'll figure it out.
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Kawhi was as effective if not more than LeBron against us. Kawhi was less flashy and did it without the ref's help but he did it. We still should have won but we had no answer for Ibaka and Danny Green. That is where we need to focus the defense next time and the Raptors did get some help on the Lowry charge calls.
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3.Kawhi didn't look like a superstar, very solid all-star level wing to me, not a good passer so we
can consider to double when he switch on Kyrie or whoever need help
You must have feel asleep at the start of the second half when he was dominating us.
I think they have acclimated to the their new talent faster than we have to our returning talent. I think we will be fine.
But it is clear to me, that they are a much bigger threat to us than Philly which is a pretender not a contender.
We keep the lead until the middle of third quarter and it's no more than 5 point until the end of 4th
Guess he is dominating in your head instead
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I've been a pretty big apologist for Kyrie Irving, but this was the worst defensive effort I've seen from him. He consistently got stuck on screens, lost his guy getting open for threes, and was taken advantage of in mismatches.
Given that it is the second game of the season and he is coming back from injury, I'll give him considerable leeway. He should improve throughout the rest of the year. I just wanted to point out (for all the Irving-haters) that there is an in-between ground between Kyrie-hate and Kyrie-fanaticism.
I thought the same thing about Hayward, but not to the same extent.
I also thought that the Raptors had pretty obvious potential to be a very scary team defensively. They weren't there yet, but there were possessions where they looked awesome.
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3.Kawhi didn't look like a superstar, very solid all-star level wing to me, not a good passer so we
can consider to double when he switch on Kyrie or whoever need help
You must have feel asleep at the start of the second half when he was dominating us.
I think they have acclimated to the their new talent faster than we have to our returning talent. I think we will be fine.
But it is clear to me, that they are a much bigger threat to us than Philly which is a pretender not a contender.
We keep the lead until the middle of third quarter and it's no more than 5 point until the end of 4th
Guess he is dominating in your head instead
He was +17 in the game. Scored 31 points and grabbed 10 rebounds. That is a pretty darn dominating game.
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I've been a pretty big apologist for Kyrie Irving, but this was the worst defensive effort I've seen from him. He consistently got stuck on screens, lost his guy getting open for threes, and was taken advantage of in mismatches.
Given that it is the second game of the season and he is coming back from injury, I'll give him considerable leeway. He should improve throughout the rest of the year. I just wanted to point out (for all the Irving-haters) that there is an in-between ground between Kyrie-hate and Kyrie-fanaticism.
I thought the same thing about Hayward, but not to the same extent.
I also thought that the Raptors had pretty obvious potential to be a very scary team defensively. They weren't there yet, but there were possessions where they looked awesome.
Irving has a crappy game and has a big + and the C's win. Irving has a good game and is a huge - and the C's lose. And I know it is just 2 games, but thus far Irving is making me look like a genius in all those threads when I claimed his value to wins and losses is greatly overrated on this blog. and yeah, his defense is awful and always has been. If I hadn't seen these performances for years, I'd be much more inclined to give him an injury pass, but this really is who Irving is and the fast this board comes to this realization, the better the viewing experience will be as this board won't collectively expect things to happen that just won't happen.
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Kawhi was as effective if not more than LeBron against us. Kawhi was less flashy and did it without the ref's help but he did it. We still should have won but we had no answer for Ibaka and Danny Green. That is where we need to focus the defense next time and the Raptors did get some help on the Lowry charge calls.
31 point on 25shot(40%). 3ast 3to 1st 0blk is no where as effective as LeBron lol
And he got plenty of star calls , our whole team ft is 10 Kawhi had 9
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3.Kawhi didn't look like a superstar, very solid all-star level wing to me, not a good passer so we
can consider to double when he switch on Kyrie or whoever need help
You must have feel asleep at the start of the second half when he was dominating us.
I think they have acclimated to the their new talent faster than we have to our returning talent. I think we will be fine.
But it is clear to me, that they are a much bigger threat to us than Philly which is a pretender not a contender.
We keep the lead until the middle of third quarter and it's no more than 5 point until the end of 4th
Guess he is dominating in your head instead
He was +17 in the game. Scored 31 points and grabbed 10 rebounds. That is a pretty darn dominating game.
Well if by dominating you mean 31 point on 25 shots with 9 freethrows and a close game until the end then ok
also Ibaka+16 Green+25 Lowry+18, and his 10rebounds comes from 8 DREB which he basically fights no one to get it
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I've been a pretty big apologist for Kyrie Irving, but this was the worst defensive effort I've seen from him. He consistently got stuck on screens, lost his guy getting open for threes, and was taken advantage of in mismatches.
Given that it is the second game of the season and he is coming back from injury, I'll give him considerable leeway. He should improve throughout the rest of the year. I just wanted to point out (for all the Irving-haters) that there is an in-between ground between Kyrie-hate and Kyrie-fanaticism.
I thought the same thing about Hayward, but not to the same extent.
I also thought that the Raptors had pretty obvious potential to be a very scary team defensively. They weren't there yet, but there were possessions where they looked awesome.
I agree on Kyrie's defense. He was trying, the effort was there, but he seemed lost in our defensive schemes and let VanVleet abuse him.
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I thought the Celtics struggled much more with the new officiating changes than the Raptors did, and it threw off their flow. For example, the quick two foul calls Horford got when he tried to roll after setting a pick, and rolled into a incoming defender. That was not an offensive foul in the past, its a new wrinkle in how the NBA is calling stuff this season.
Also the 14 second shot clock reset after an offensive rebound instead of 24 seconds hurt us a few times, as did the increased emphasis on hand-checking on offense. Guys where just doing what they are used to always doing, and getting called for fouls all over the place. They will adjust to the new rule interpretations, it will just take some time.
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My biggest takeaway from the game was that Hayward is a dang stud. He’s not nearly all the way back yet you saw what he will be in a month or two. People saying he was our best player before the injury may be right. Solid defender, steady playmaker, that can absolutely get his at any time.
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The big takeaway for me is that Tatum knows how to g t a shot off any time; he doesn't know when to put the ball in the hands of veterans late in the 4th during a scoring drought that could determine the game. He just doesn't have the feel yet. Absolutely gifted, but a ways to go to lead for a stretch. It was a bit Gerald Green for a stretch there.
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Basically, my thoughts are WE SUCK.
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And again, Marcus Smart and his Kobe acting. Wow, some things just never change.
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11 TOs killed us in the first half.
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Basically, my thoughts are WE SUCK.
(https://i.imgur.com/FMDw3WB.gif)
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And again, Marcus Smart and his Kobe acting. Wow, some things just never change.
I know it's his well deserved reputation, but he only took 6 shots after taking just 4 on Tuesday. Most of these shots were wide open. He took the fewest number of shots of everyone that played last night and dished out 6 assists. That's what we want from him.
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My biggest takeaway from the game was that Hayward is a dang stud. He’s not nearly all the way back yet you saw what he will be in a month or two. People saying he was our best player before the injury may be right. Solid defender, steady playmaker, that can absolutely get his at any time.
Yes. Really looking forward to seeing Hayward in June. He showed a few flashes last night. Just wait.
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Disappointing to lose, of course. Then again, I don’t think Ibaka, Green, and VanVleet can play much better, we were on their court, and we were in iif until the last couple of minutes. I think we will figure out how to defend them, and as Gordon rounds into full form we will be the better team. Just more talent.
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And again, Marcus Smart and his Kobe acting. Wow, some things just never change.
I know it's his well deserved reputation, but he only took 6 shots after taking just 4 on Tuesday. Most of these shots were wide open. He took the fewest number of shots of everyone that played last night and dished out 6 assists. That's what we want from him.
My problem is not with the number of shots he took, its that almost all of them were early in the shot clock. He didn't give the offense a chance to run anything.
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And again, Marcus Smart and his Kobe acting. Wow, some things just never change.
I know it's his well deserved reputation, but he only took 6 shots after taking just 4 on Tuesday. Most of these shots were wide open. He took the fewest number of shots of everyone that played last night and dished out 6 assists. That's what we want from him.
My problem is not with the number of shots he took, its that almost all of them were early in the shot clock. He didn't give the offense a chance to run anything.
Yeah, that wasn't a great night for Marcus. He also had a pretty subpar post-up. That's actually something he should do better.
The defense also played him intelligently - went under picks, or gave him room when he was near the 3-pt line. Weirdest thing about Marcus is a lot of teams actually guard his shot, which lets him penetrate and dish more assists.
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3.Kawhi didn't look like a superstar, very solid all-star level wing to me, not a good passer so we
can consider to double when he switch on Kyrie or whoever need help
You must have feel asleep at the start of the second half when he was dominating us.
I think they have acclimated to the their new talent faster than we have to our returning talent. I think we will be fine.
But it is clear to me, that they are a much bigger threat to us than Philly which is a pretender not a contender.
We keep the lead until the middle of third quarter and it's no more than 5 point until the end of 4th
Guess he is dominating in your head instead
He didn’t say the Raptors dominated us through the second half. Leonard was nearly unstoppable, though.
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3.Kawhi didn't look like a superstar, very solid all-star level wing to me, not a good passer so we
can consider to double when he switch on Kyrie or whoever need help
You must have feel asleep at the start of the second half when he was dominating us.
I think they have acclimated to the their new talent faster than we have to our returning talent. I think we will be fine.
But it is clear to me, that they are a much bigger threat to us than Philly which is a pretender not a contender.
We keep the lead until the middle of third quarter and it's no more than 5 point until the end of 4th
Guess he is dominating in your head instead
He didn’t say the Raptors dominated us through the second half. Leonard was nearly unstoppable, though.
Again i don't know what others think by "dominating" or "unstoppable" but to me we didn't double him and shooting 40% , 25shots to get 31pt, 3ast 3to isn't really dominating or unstoppable to me
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Biggest takeaway:
We have a Kawhi Leonard problem. He was clearly the best player on the floor last night. He is his old self, less a little rust, and clearly the best all around player in the East (including Giannis). Frankly, I would not be surprised if he becomes league MVP.
Second biggest: Gordon Hayward is really good, again. He is finding his shot, rebounds very well, and can really help spark the offense. He is more valuable to us right now than Tatum. Tatum has more talent, and will eventually be better. But Gordon's service in the league all these years just makes him a better basketball player right now. Tatum trying to drive through a triple team last night was just a dumb mistake at a critical time. He will learn.
Brown seems to be left out someone during crunch time.
Morris is hot and cold.
Terry struggled.
In conclusion, we have a KL problem. And therefore a Toronto problem. He is an amazing basketball player. In retrospect, Danny probably should have been more aggressive pursuing him. Jaylen Brown and picks probably could have gotten it done. Take the risk like Toronto that he would fall in love with the team.
I hope all the JB comparisons to KL will now stop. Just not in the same category. And I love JB, still do.
Could you imagine having KL to guard Lebron or KD in the playoffs? Wow.
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Biggest takeaway:
We have a Kawhi Leonard problem. He was clearly the best player on the floor last night. He is his old self, less a little rust, and clearly the best all around player in the East (including Giannis). Frankly, I would not be surprised if he becomes league MVP.
Second biggest: Gordon Hayward is really good, again. He is finding his shot, rebounds very well, and can really help spark the offense. He is more valuable to us right now than Tatum. Tatum has more talent, and will eventually be better. But Gordon's service in the league all these years just makes him a better basketball player right now. Tatum trying to drive through a triple team last night was just a dumb mistake at a critical time. He will learn.
Brown seems to be left out someone during crunch time.
Morris is hot and cold.
Terry struggled.
In conclusion, we have a KL problem. And therefore a Toronto problem. He is an amazing basketball player. In retrospect, Danny probably should have been more aggressive pursuing him. Jaylen Brown and picks probably could have gotten it done. Take the risk like Toronto that he would fall in love with the team.
I hope all the JB comparisons to KL will now stop. Just not in the same category. And I love JB, still do.
Could you imagine having KL to guard Lebron or KD in the playoffs? Wow.
The problem with the risk, is Boston could have never afforded to keep both Irving and Leonard next summer with Hayward and Horford on the roster. Just too much salary to pay. Though, I'd have still probably done it and just moved on from Irving as Leonard is clearly a better player.
The team that should have gone all in, is clearly Philly. They absolutely should have been willing to give up Fultz along with Saric and Covington. Throw in a couple of protected 1st's and Bayless and also get Green. How good would the Sixers be right now with Leonard and Green? Simmons, Redick, Green, Leonard, Embiid with Chandler, Muscala, McConnell, Johnson, and all their young wings (Shamet, Bolden, Smith, Korkmaz). Probably could have signed a couple of vets for some depth (especially down low), but they would be absolutely nasty had they just been willing to pull the trigger. And unlike Boston, they wouldn't have had a salary problem giving Leonard the max next summer.
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I've been a pretty big apologist for Kyrie Irving, but this was the worst defensive effort I've seen from him. He consistently got stuck on screens, lost his guy getting open for threes, and was taken advantage of in mismatches.
Given that it is the second game of the season and he is coming back from injury, I'll give him considerable leeway. He should improve throughout the rest of the year. I just wanted to point out (for all the Irving-haters) that there is an in-between ground between Kyrie-hate and Kyrie-fanaticism.
I thought the same thing about Hayward, but not to the same extent.
I also thought that the Raptors had pretty obvious potential to be a very scary team defensively. They weren't there yet, but there were possessions where they looked awesome.
Irving has a crappy game and has a big + and the C's win. Irving has a good game and is a huge - and the C's lose. And I know it is just 2 games, but thus far Irving is making me look like a genius in all those threads when I claimed his value to wins and losses is greatly overrated on this blog. and yeah, his defense is awful and always has been. If I hadn't seen these performances for years, I'd be much more inclined to give him an injury pass, but this really is who Irving is and the fast this board comes to this realization, the better the viewing experience will be as this board won't collectively expect things to happen that just won't happen.
Irving's best value will come playoff time when the C's offense grinds to a halt.
That said, especially early last year, I thought Irving was pretty good on defense, at least not as bad as his reputation suggested. He had a mid-season lull (somewhat expected), and then missed the end of the season.
Last night, he looked far worse than I've seen him.
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What people keep forgetting about the Kawhi trade is SA didn't want youth. DeRozan was the best win now guy they could have traded for considering Kawhi's contract situation.
As for the topic: Tatum may just end up being the best player on this team by the end of the season.
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Two biggest takeaways -
1. If Leonard stays healthy, Toronto is real competition in the East.
2. It was Game 2 on the road vs a talented opponent. Even if they still had DeRozan I'd have given really good odds that we'd get an L in this one.
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Brad was experimenting with lineups and defensive assignment. Toronto has improved.Brad will figure it out. Rozier was better marking Lowry and Van Fleet than Smartand Irving
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I'm not really surprised Toronto has been able to integrate their new players more quickly than Boston has been able to integrate Hayward/Irving. Toronto has a clear pecking order and less 'mouths' to feed. Boston on the other hand has a number of guys who could easily be first options in their own right, and are still trying to figure out how to best utilize everyone.
I suspect once Boston figures things out we'll start to see some clear separation between the two teams.
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1. Brad Stevens rotations are still terrible and i'm skeptical that they can win a title until he gets better at this.
2. Kyrie is playing too passively. He is a scorer and needs to look more for his shot.
3. The Raptors are really good.
4. Gordon Hayward is a stud and i really enjoy watching him play.
5. Robert Williams needs to play.
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The loss to me should help to motivate this team. Sometimes having to many good players is a disadvantage. I saw people not passing the ball to the open man. Ibaka is not going to play like this every night. Leonard and Green showed their Championship skills in the final 3 minutes of the game. It was terrible are lack of execution. The Raptors were ready to close we were looking at how to do it.
This should humble our team. Watch out Knicks tonight.
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the loss isn't that bad, seeing Hayward get more comfortable out there and Irving improving from game one is refreshing. Seeing those two guys healthy is all it matters, Tatum and Brown still attacking. The defense was concerning that game, so many open 3s and communication on D wasn't great BUT it's a work in progress which i see will improve as time goes on. Not to mention, I really don't think Ibaka can do this every game :).
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I hope all the JB comparisons to KL will now stop. Just not in the same category. And I love JB, still do.
What? Jaylen Brown ISN'T Kawhi Leonard? I'm shocked. The comparisons arent saying Jaylen is as good as Kawhi, its's saying they are similar at the same age (they are), and much like Kawhi Jaylen needs to improve skills like shooting, ball handling and passing to get to the star level. I hope these comparisons continue, because if they do it likely means Jaylen is living up to the comparison.
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Not aggressive enough. SOFT.
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This is one ugly game on both sides.
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This is one ugly game on both sides.
It's so bad that it is infecting other threads.
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I've been a pretty big apologist for Kyrie Irving, but this was the worst defensive effort I've seen from him. He consistently got stuck on screens, lost his guy getting open for threes, and was taken advantage of in mismatches.
Given that it is the second game of the season and he is coming back from injury, I'll give him considerable leeway. He should improve throughout the rest of the year. I just wanted to point out (for all the Irving-haters) that there is an in-between ground between Kyrie-hate and Kyrie-fanaticism.
I thought the same thing about Hayward, but not to the same extent.
I also thought that the Raptors had pretty obvious potential to be a very scary team defensively. They weren't there yet, but there were possessions where they looked awesome.
Irving has a crappy game and has a big + and the C's win. Irving has a good game and is a huge - and the C's lose. And I know it is just 2 games, but thus far Irving is making me look like a genius in all those threads when I claimed his value to wins and losses is greatly overrated on this blog. and yeah, his defense is awful and always has been. If I hadn't seen these performances for years, I'd be much more inclined to give him an injury pass, but this really is who Irving is and the fast this board comes to this realization, the better the viewing experience will be as this board won't collectively expect things to happen that just won't happen.
Irving's best value will come playoff time when the C's offense grinds to a halt.
That said, especially early last year, I thought Irving was pretty good on defense, at least not as bad as his reputation suggested. He had a mid-season lull (somewhat expected), and then missed the end of the season.
Last night, he looked far worse than I've seen him.
I thought Irving looked much more engaged in the 4th quarter. It was against Burke, but the way he fought around screens and stayed engaged off-ball was much better.
He can be a decent defender with effort, but the effort comes and goes.
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Why Brad did not double Kawhi in the post occasionally is beyond me. Kawhi did not pass the ball out once.
Also, Brad is channelling Doc Rivers. We go small at the end and get killed on the boards.
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I've been a pretty big apologist for Kyrie Irving, but this was the worst defensive effort I've seen from him. He consistently got stuck on screens, lost his guy getting open for threes, and was taken advantage of in mismatches.
Given that it is the second game of the season and he is coming back from injury, I'll give him considerable leeway. He should improve throughout the rest of the year. I just wanted to point out (for all the Irving-haters) that there is an in-between ground between Kyrie-hate and Kyrie-fanaticism.
I thought the same thing about Hayward, but not to the same extent.
I also thought that the Raptors had pretty obvious potential to be a very scary team defensively. They weren't there yet, but there were possessions where they looked awesome.
Irving has a crappy game and has a big + and the C's win. Irving has a good game and is a huge - and the C's lose. And I know it is just 2 games, but thus far Irving is making me look like a genius in all those threads when I claimed his value to wins and losses is greatly overrated on this blog. and yeah, his defense is awful and always has been. If I hadn't seen these performances for years, I'd be much more inclined to give him an injury pass, but this really is who Irving is and the fast this board comes to this realization, the better the viewing experience will be as this board won't collectively expect things to happen that just won't happen.
Irving's best value will come playoff time when the C's offense grinds to a halt.
That said, especially early last year, I thought Irving was pretty good on defense, at least not as bad as his reputation suggested. He had a mid-season lull (somewhat expected), and then missed the end of the season.
Last night, he looked far worse than I've seen him.
I thought Irving looked much more engaged in the 4th quarter. It was against Burke, but the way he fought around screens and stayed engaged off-ball was much better.
He can be a decent defender with effort, but the effort comes and goes.
That is one of the things that I find so frustrating about him. Kyrie is clearly capable of playing good defense. He has shown us that in the past. In short spurts.
It is one thing when a guy just isn't capable of playing good defense. But it is even more annoying to me when a player is capable of that defense but is just unwilling of putting the effort in (on a consistent basis) necessary to be a good defender.
EFFORT. That should be a minimal requirement of an NBA player.
At least we know Kyrie is capable of playing good defense when it matters most. When (if?) he tries hard enough. That is something.