Jayson tatum slander all over media

[Larry for 3]

For the people on this thread who are like "what?? I never notice", literally go check all social media right now. Tatum has a terrible half and it's as if the President announced a war declaration and there's chaos. Ant Edwards was atrocious the other night (something like 7-27 shooting) and it was crickets online.

Nobody cares about Minnesota basketball, that’s why. This is Boston. Nuff said.

[Moranis]

For the people on this thread who are like "what?? I never notice", literally go check all social media right now. Tatum has a terrible half and it's as if the President announced a war declaration and there's chaos. Ant Edwards was atrocious the other night (something like 7-27 shooting) and it was crickets online.

Tatum and Edwards are not at the same point in their careers or discussed in the same way.  Tatum is discussed with guys like Jokic, Edwards is not.  If you are being compared to Jokic, Giannis, etc. you just have different standards. 

[CelticsWhat35]

For the people on this thread who are like "what?? I never notice", literally go check all social media right now. Tatum has a terrible half and it's as if the President announced a war declaration and there's chaos. Ant Edwards was atrocious the other night (something like 7-27 shooting) and it was crickets online.

Tatum and Edwards are not at the same point in their careers or discussed in the same way.  Tatum is discussed with guys like Jokic, Edwards is not.  If you are being compared to Jokic, Giannis, etc. you just have different standards.

Ant has absolutely been in MVP discussions, with some suggesting at he win it if the Wolves hold on to the #1 seed in the West

[Roy H.]

The other reason there's more fire around JT right now is that he addressed it.  He said he thinks he belongs in the MVP discussion, and that people hold past failures against him.  While that's a fine take, it also painted even more of a target on him.

[Phantom255x]

For the people on this thread who are like "what?? I never notice", literally go check all social media right now. Tatum has a terrible half and it's as if the President announced a war declaration and there's chaos. Ant Edwards was atrocious the other night (something like 7-27 shooting) and it was crickets online.

Nobody cares about Minnesota basketball, that’s why. This is Boston. Nuff said.

Bingo.

[SparzWizard]

The other reason there's more fire around JT right now is that he addressed it.  He said he thinks he belongs in the MVP discussion, and that people hold past failures against him.  While that's a fine take, it also painted even more of a target on him.

That didn't help his case Thursday night. Well deserved criticism if he did publicly address that he definitely belongs in the MVP discussion.

He needs to score consistently like 25+ per game or do the other things exceptionally well if he doesn't score well.

[Moranis]

For the people on this thread who are like "what?? I never notice", literally go check all social media right now. Tatum has a terrible half and it's as if the President announced a war declaration and there's chaos. Ant Edwards was atrocious the other night (something like 7-27 shooting) and it was crickets online.

Tatum and Edwards are not at the same point in their careers or discussed in the same way.  Tatum is discussed with guys like Jokic, Edwards is not.  If you are being compared to Jokic, Giannis, etc. you just have different standards.

Ant has absolutely been in MVP discussions, with some suggesting at he win it if the Wolves hold on to the #1 seed in the West

that isn't the same thing

[scaryjerry]

Tatum was 4th last season, quite a bit behind Embiid, Jokic, Giannis, and quite a bit ahead of Gilgeous-Alexander and Mitchell.  Embiid is obviously not in the running this season due to games played. I see worst case, Tatum stays 4th (SGA moves up), but best case, arguments could be made for Jokic or Tatum with Giannis dropping down.  I personally see Tatum as ahead of SGA and Mitchell, also probably ahead of Giannis this season.

But this is not what I am focusing on and I doubt Tatum is either.  The real prize is finals MVP.  That will do more for Tatum's legacy than the season MVP.

It is not a knock on a player to say he should be anywhere in the top 4 in the MVP voting.  Tatum may not ever be the outright best player in the league in a season.  But he is going to be in the top 3 or 4 or 5, at least every season for the next several.  I'll take that.

I'm curious, why do you have him over SGA? I don't think it's debatable that SGA has been better.  Is it simply the "best player on the best team" argument?

Yes, I believe some MVP "points" should be awarded for team success, not the end all, just a part of the equation, and Tatum is the best player on a better team.  I think it is debatable as to whether SGA has been better, or more valuable based on individual production.  Yes, he averages about 4 more points (about 15% more than Tatum), but Tatum get more rebounds (over 50% more), and plays better defense.  SGA gets more assists but probably has higher usage (in my mind, assists can be a deceptive stat).  I think it is a fair debate, I like Tatum a little better, others may see it differently, but to say it isn't even debatable, in my mind is going too far.  I like Tatum better, but accept that it is close enough for legitimate debate.

As to Mitchell, I agree he is really good.  He would likely be right there with in the debate with Tatum and SGA, if he had more games.  But he doesn't this season so I have him behind both.  He has 47 games, CLE has 20 remaining.  If he does get to 65, it will be just barely.  In any case, I think he has been less valuable because of games played.  Maybe that isn't how you are supposed to score, but that is how it is in my mind.

SGA is on the team with the best record in the better conference with a significantly worse roster and outperformed Tatum in their head to head matchup…what are we talking about here

[Vermont Green]

Tatum was 4th last season, quite a bit behind Embiid, Jokic, Giannis, and quite a bit ahead of Gilgeous-Alexander and Mitchell.  Embiid is obviously not in the running this season due to games played. I see worst case, Tatum stays 4th (SGA moves up), but best case, arguments could be made for Jokic or Tatum with Giannis dropping down.  I personally see Tatum as ahead of SGA and Mitchell, also probably ahead of Giannis this season.

But this is not what I am focusing on and I doubt Tatum is either.  The real prize is finals MVP.  That will do more for Tatum's legacy than the season MVP.

It is not a knock on a player to say he should be anywhere in the top 4 in the MVP voting.  Tatum may not ever be the outright best player in the league in a season.  But he is going to be in the top 3 or 4 or 5, at least every season for the next several.  I'll take that.

I'm curious, why do you have him over SGA? I don't think it's debatable that SGA has been better.  Is it simply the "best player on the best team" argument?

Yes, I believe some MVP "points" should be awarded for team success, not the end all, just a part of the equation, and Tatum is the best player on a better team.  I think it is debatable as to whether SGA has been better, or more valuable based on individual production.  Yes, he averages about 4 more points (about 15% more than Tatum), but Tatum get more rebounds (over 50% more), and plays better defense.  SGA gets more assists but probably has higher usage (in my mind, assists can be a deceptive stat).  I think it is a fair debate, I like Tatum a little better, others may see it differently, but to say it isn't even debatable, in my mind is going too far.  I like Tatum better, but accept that it is close enough for legitimate debate.

As to Mitchell, I agree he is really good.  He would likely be right there with in the debate with Tatum and SGA, if he had more games.  But he doesn't this season so I have him behind both.  He has 47 games, CLE has 20 remaining.  If he does get to 65, it will be just barely.  In any case, I think he has been less valuable because of games played.  Maybe that isn't how you are supposed to score, but that is how it is in my mind.

SGA is on the team with the best record in the better conference with a significantly worse roster and outperformed Tatum in their head to head matchup…what are we talking about here

I don't know what anyone else is talking about, but I said that I thought Tatum was going to finish higher in the MVP voting that SGA.  Then it became "it is not even debatable" that SGA is a better player than Tatum (which doesn't mean he will get more MVP votes).

It seems most have SGA as a "better player" than Tatum, from what I can see based mostly on the traditional offensive stats.  SGA scores 31 while Tatum scores 27.  All fair points but I will still take Tatum.  I think Tatum could get 31 pts/gm if he wanted to or if the team was different, but SGA is never going to be able to rebound like Tatum or defend with the position versatility that Tatum can.  I still think Tatum will end up with more MVP points/votes in the end (getting back to where this started).  And I don't put much in assist stats.  Good passing teams get buckets after a couple of passes.  It may start with a good pass by Tatum, but the easy bucket may come a couple of passes later.

SGA has emerged as a legit star.  He is the best player on a really good team.  I don't think the best in the west (that would be DEN) but still in the top tier. (I know, OKC is 1 game ahead of DEN in the standings).  SGA is exactly 4 months younger than Tatum but until this season, has not been a part of any real team success, while Tatum has been in the playoffs every season.  I am nothing if not open minded so I reserve the right to change my mind but right now, I still take Tatum.

[Who]

SGA is never going to be able to rebound like Tatum or defend with the position versatility that Tatum can. 

Is there much difference in the defensive versatility?

SGA can defend both guard positions at a high level and the SF position at an adequate level. Tatum can defend both forward positions at a high level and the SG position at an adequate level.

[Vermont Green]

SGA is never going to be able to rebound like Tatum or defend with the position versatility that Tatum can. 

Is there much difference in the defensive versatility?

SGA can defend both guard positions at a high level and the SF position at an adequate level. Tatum can defend both forward positions at a high level and the SG position at an adequate level.

I would say that in general, having the versatility to defend bigger wings and big forwards at a high level has more value than being able to defend guards and smaller wings.  So yes, that is part of why I value Tatum a little higher than SGA.  With his size, SGA has more defensive versatility than say Donovan Mitchell, but I still value what Tatum can do more.  Especially on this current Celtics team.  Tatum's versatility is a huge factor in the Celtics ability to play the rotation they play, while still being the team's top scorer/playmaker.

[Moranis]

SGA is never going to be able to rebound like Tatum or defend with the position versatility that Tatum can. 

Is there much difference in the defensive versatility?

SGA can defend both guard positions at a high level and the SF position at an adequate level. Tatum can defend both forward positions at a high level and the SG position at an adequate level.

I would say that in general, having the versatility to defend bigger wings and big forwards at a high level has more value than being able to defend guards and smaller wings.  So yes, that is part of why I value Tatum a little higher than SGA.  With his size, SGA has more defensive versatility than say Donovan Mitchell, but I still value what Tatum can do more.  Especially on this current Celtics team.  Tatum's versatility is a huge factor in the Celtics ability to play the rotation they play, while still being the team's top scorer/playmaker.

They play different positions though. Both are versatile defenders. SGA does however generate steals and blocks at a much greater rate and has slightly more defensive won shares.

SGA is a much more efficient offensive player. I mean he scores 4.2 more ppg on just .8 more FGA.  He shoots better from everywhere and has a much higher TS% and eFG% as a result.  He is even a better offesnive rebounder. He leads the league in offensive win shares and has nearly double what Tatum does.

Even if you think defensively they are close, they aren't offensively.  SGA is having a significantly better overall season thanTatum is. It really isn't all that close either.

And for on/off differential SGA is +12.6 per 100 possessions and Tatum is a paltry +2.4.  SGA should absolutely get more MVP votes than Tatum as he is having a much more valuable year.

[scaryjerry]

SGA is never going to be able to rebound like Tatum or defend with the position versatility that Tatum can. 

Is there much difference in the defensive versatility?

SGA can defend both guard positions at a high level and the SF position at an adequate level. Tatum can defend both forward positions at a high level and the SG position at an adequate level.

I would say that in general, having the versatility to defend bigger wings and big forwards at a high level has more value than being able to defend guards and smaller wings.  So yes, that is part of why I value Tatum a little higher than SGA.  With his size, SGA has more defensive versatility than say Donovan Mitchell, but I still value what Tatum can do more.  Especially on this current Celtics team.  Tatum's versatility is a huge factor in the Celtics ability to play the rotation they play, while still being the team's top scorer/playmaker.

Celtics make the playoffs without Tatum, maybe even the second round. He’s a good player on a great team.
Thunder are a lottery team without SGA. He’s a transcendent talent on an otherwise below average team.

[Vermont Green]

SGA is never going to be able to rebound like Tatum or defend with the position versatility that Tatum can. 

Is there much difference in the defensive versatility?

SGA can defend both guard positions at a high level and the SF position at an adequate level. Tatum can defend both forward positions at a high level and the SG position at an adequate level.

I would say that in general, having the versatility to defend bigger wings and big forwards at a high level has more value than being able to defend guards and smaller wings.  So yes, that is part of why I value Tatum a little higher than SGA.  With his size, SGA has more defensive versatility than say Donovan Mitchell, but I still value what Tatum can do more.  Especially on this current Celtics team.  Tatum's versatility is a huge factor in the Celtics ability to play the rotation they play, while still being the team's top scorer/playmaker.

Celtics make the playoffs without Tatum, maybe even the second round. He’s a good player on a great team.
Thunder are a lottery team without SGA. He’s a transcendent talent on an otherwise below average team.

I am not saying that Shai is not a star, but if he is so transcendent, why wasn't he able to transcend any of his previous teams?  Is he really transcending this team that is otherwise below average?  Or is he finally on a good team and able to be the best player on that team.  He has been a starter in the league for 6 seasons.  This is the first season where his team has shown any real team success.  I think it is a stretch to say that OKC is a lottery team without him.  They have been a lottery team with him in the past though.

[Who]

SGA = Wade
Tatum = Pierce

These two remind me of this comparison. SGA the unstoppable one-on-one force who can get wherever he wants to on the court. Tatum like Pierce more well rounded with his perimeter jump-shot but not the unreal athlete or driver that SGA (Wade) is.