Feelings on the In Season Tournament?

[tazzmaniac]

I was indifferent about it when the season started, still indifferent to it now. I just don't care about it on any level.

With that said, I think the talk about sportsmanship is way overblown. The other team doesn't want to get shown up after going down big? They should play harder and not go down by 20+ points. The Bulls gave up early on, why should it be on the Celtics to coddle them and massage their egos? Don't want to be embarrassed, start by not embarrassing yourselves.

I agree with you about running up the score in general. But do you feel like intentional fouling up 30 and making the game go longer falls under this? To me it is even about trying to play basketball at that point.

I don't really have an issue with it. Either the league wants teams to care about the IST or they don't. You can't put in things like point differential and then call it unsportsmanlike when coaches and teams actually strategize to get the job done. In this tournament, the point differential does matter and hack-a-Drummond is a proven strategy with an 11-year sample size that Andre hasn't been able correct.

We still had an opportunity for home court advantage in the semis with a point differential of 39, I think. Joe went for it. This is the NBA and these players make millions of dollars as the best in the world, right? Again, if you get embarrassed when the opposing team exploits an obvious weakness, improve the weakness or expect your coach to adjust.

Exactly, this is not CYO basketball where you feel bad about embarrassing some kid who has no business being on the court to begin with. These are professional basketball players making millions of dollars to be out there. It's on them to improve their professional skill. If they can't shoot free throws the opponent should exploit it fully.

I went to my daughter's first middle school game last night.  The other team beat them 78-4.  If the sixth grade girls can take it, grown men should be able to.

I remember being beaten 100-6 when I was in middle school 

And to Celticsclay's point, I vaguely remember being really overmatched, both physically and skills wise. I vaguely remember trying to defend a kid that was head and shoulders taller than us and just shot over us all day  1But we gave it a go. It was either that or not play a game at all.

I feel like the reason the players are speaking out is because running up the score in general is seen as bad form in American sports, even in professional leagues...it's part of all these unwritten rules like don't swing on a 3-0 when you're up big, don't flip your bat and admire your home run, don't dunk the ball if you are leading by 30+ with 2 min to go, just kneel if you are up big in football, etc. They don't want to be on the wrong end of being labelled as violating one of those unwritten rules.

Some of it is predicated on things that make logical sense, like why try to make football plays and run the risk of injury in a contact sport, or why keep starters in a basketball game when you can manage their workload and reduce the risk of injury...but others are just there to basically not make the other team look or feel bad. We saw Cryrie throw the ball in the stands when Jamal Murray tried to shoot a 3 to get 50 at the end of a Denver-Boston game in 2018, we've seen Cam Payne from Phoenix get mad at Zion for doing a 360 dunk with 1.9 seconds to go and his team up 128-117...they get cut up because they feel the other team is showboating on them and it's not good form.

Personally I can understand the former, I have no time for the latter. If you want to stop the other team doing whatever they want, then do so on the court. Whining about being showboated on when you are a professional player in a league where even vets make $2m a season and stars can make $30-$60m, I don't think you have any call to expect the other team to go easy on you. The way I see it, not letting up is the best way to show respect, because you respect the other team enough to not want to give them even a sniff of coming back. And teams have come back from huge deficits, both in football (28-3 anyone), basketball (think of all the 20+ point leads that can get erased in a couple of minutes when people get hot from 3) or baseball where teams have come back from 8-10 run deficits.

These are pros, not school teams. School teams you're trying to teach them about sportsmanship, winning with grace and losing with pride, and also because, like my and Roy's daughter's middle school teams, there can be a big imbalance in the talent level on both sides. Even in college sports you can have a Div 1 team end up playing a lesser team where the talent disparity is apparent, and the coaches may decide to take their foot off the gas if the game gets decided. But I don't think pro players can use that excuse.

What's interesting is this running up the score aversion seemed to be a uniquely American thing - when I lived in Sydney and London and watched rugby and cricket games teams had zero issue with running up the score, if you look at the recent Rugby World Cup France beat Namibia 96-0, the NZ All Blacks beat Italy 96-17, England beat Chile 71-0, etc. In those countries the fans and players get insulted if the other team takes their foot off the gas, because that's seen as being patronizing and a sign of disrespect. It's funny how different cultures view this through different lenses 

All that being said, it's the first year and they will probably solicit feedback from players, coaches and other experts to work out what they can bring forward and what they can tweak. I suspect the intentional fouling thing was only done because Drummond can't shoot free throws to save his life. I agree it looks dumb but I think it was done to gain an advantage towards pushing the point differential as high as they could to ensure qualification, which only happens when the final whistle blows. If Drummond hadn't been on the court, if Billy had subbed him out, then they wouldn't be fouling anyone as there would be no advantage. Isn't that the reason why Ben Simmons can't be in Brooklyn's closing lineup? Because he shoots 30% from the line? If Billy didn't want Andre to be fouled and look bad at the line then he should have subbed him out, it was under his control.

The Bulls scored 2 more points in the 4th quarter than the Celts so whatever was done was about maintaining the score differential than running up the score. 

[Birdman]

Don’t like it..just a money making scheme for NBA

[gift]

the players and the media seem to like it, so that's good. i was worried that they wouldn't. owners presumably like it and league partners must like the added emphasis/marketing. but i'm still not sure there's a major benefit to fans. a couple more exciting games? maybe? those tend to happen anyway during the course of the season and if they don't, most fans don't miss them because most fans aren't watching all the games. just give the fans something to cheer for beyond the normal wins and i'm probably fully on board. as it is, i'm trying to care but just can't quite get there. happy for everyone who does benefit though. at least it's not an embarrassing fail so far.

[gift]

I was indifferent about it when the season started, still indifferent to it now. I just don't care about it on any level.

With that said, I think the talk about sportsmanship is way overblown. The other team doesn't want to get shown up after going down big? They should play harder and not go down by 20+ points. The Bulls gave up early on, why should it be on the Celtics to coddle them and massage their egos? Don't want to be embarrassed, start by not embarrassing yourselves.

I agree with you about running up the score in general. But do you feel like intentional fouling up 30 and making the game go longer falls under this? To me it is even about trying to play basketball at that point.

I don't really have an issue with it. Either the league wants teams to care about the IST or they don't. You can't put in things like point differential and then call it unsportsmanlike when coaches and teams actually strategize to get the job done. In this tournament, the point differential does matter and hack-a-Drummond is a proven strategy with an 11-year sample size that Andre hasn't been able correct.

We still had an opportunity for home court advantage in the semis with a point differential of 39, I think. Joe went for it. This is the NBA and these players make millions of dollars as the best in the world, right? Again, if you get embarrassed when the opposing team exploits an obvious weakness, improve the weakness or expect your coach to adjust.

Exactly, this is not CYO basketball where you feel bad about embarrassing some kid who has no business being on the court to begin with. These are professional basketball players making millions of dollars to be out there. It's on them to improve their professional skill. If they can't shoot free throws the opponent should exploit it fully.

I went to my daughter's first middle school game last night.  The other team beat them 78-4.  If the sixth grade girls can take it, grown men should be able to.

I remember being beaten 100-6 when I was in middle school 

And to Celticsclay's point, I vaguely remember being really overmatched, both physically and skills wise. I vaguely remember trying to defend a kid that was head and shoulders taller than us and just shot over us all day  1But we gave it a go. It was either that or not play a game at all.

I feel like the reason the players are speaking out is because running up the score in general is seen as bad form in American sports, even in professional leagues...it's part of all these unwritten rules like don't swing on a 3-0 when you're up big, don't flip your bat and admire your home run, don't dunk the ball if you are leading by 30+ with 2 min to go, just kneel if you are up big in football, etc. They don't want to be on the wrong end of being labelled as violating one of those unwritten rules.

Some of it is predicated on things that make logical sense, like why try to make football plays and run the risk of injury in a contact sport, or why keep starters in a basketball game when you can manage their workload and reduce the risk of injury...but others are just there to basically not make the other team look or feel bad. We saw Cryrie throw the ball in the stands when Jamal Murray tried to shoot a 3 to get 50 at the end of a Denver-Boston game in 2018, we've seen Cam Payne from Phoenix get mad at Zion for doing a 360 dunk with 1.9 seconds to go and his team up 128-117...they get cut up because they feel the other team is showboating on them and it's not good form.

Personally I can understand the former, I have no time for the latter. If you want to stop the other team doing whatever they want, then do so on the court. Whining about being showboated on when you are a professional player in a league where even vets make $2m a season and stars can make $30-$60m, I don't think you have any call to expect the other team to go easy on you. The way I see it, not letting up is the best way to show respect, because you respect the other team enough to not want to give them even a sniff of coming back. And teams have come back from huge deficits, both in football (28-3 anyone), basketball (think of all the 20+ point leads that can get erased in a couple of minutes when people get hot from 3) or baseball where teams have come back from 8-10 run deficits.

These are pros, not school teams. School teams you're trying to teach them about sportsmanship, winning with grace and losing with pride, and also because, like my and Roy's daughter's middle school teams, there can be a big imbalance in the talent level on both sides. Even in college sports you can have a Div 1 team end up playing a lesser team where the talent disparity is apparent, and the coaches may decide to take their foot off the gas if the game gets decided. But I don't think pro players can use that excuse.

What's interesting is this running up the score aversion seemed to be a uniquely American thing - when I lived in Sydney and London and watched rugby and cricket games teams had zero issue with running up the score, if you look at the recent Rugby World Cup France beat Namibia 96-0, the NZ All Blacks beat Italy 96-17, England beat Chile 71-0, etc. In those countries the fans and players get insulted if the other team takes their foot off the gas, because that's seen as being patronizing and a sign of disrespect. It's funny how different cultures view this through different lenses 

All that being said, it's the first year and they will probably solicit feedback from players, coaches and other experts to work out what they can bring forward and what they can tweak. I suspect the intentional fouling thing was only done because Drummond can't shoot free throws to save his life. I agree it looks dumb but I think it was done to gain an advantage towards pushing the point differential as high as they could to ensure qualification, which only happens when the final whistle blows. If Drummond hadn't been on the court, if Billy had subbed him out, then they wouldn't be fouling anyone as there would be no advantage. Isn't that the reason why Ben Simmons can't be in Brooklyn's closing lineup? Because he shoots 30% from the line? If Billy didn't want Andre to be fouled and look bad at the line then he should have subbed him out, it was under his control.

i agree. much of the time unwritten rules begin for one reason and are later expected and enforced for different reasons that don't always make sense.

[Neurotic Guy]

I am not looking forward to the extra high intensity games v top competition with an extra cross country trip with the possibility of an 83rd game — followed by an intense schedule at home - 2 games each v the Cavs and Magic, and another cross country trip to play both LA teams, GSW, and Sac.   All before Christmas (LAL on Christmas Day). 

VERY reasonable possibility that the stretch following the IST Final in Vegas costs them in seeding for the REAL tournament.  They will be exhausted putting high minutes/effort into the IST (not to mention kicking off the stretch with tomorrow’s game v Sixers) and will be running on fumes by Christmas.  Meanwhile, the Sixers play a relaxed schedule with a 4-day break during the IST and 2 v. Wizards, 2 v. pistons and a game each v. Bulls and Hawks.

I expect the Sixers to be at least 2 games ahead of the Celtics by the end of December.  And surely at least one Celtic comes out of this stretch hurt.

I HATE the IST. I believe there is a decent chance that it costs the Celtics a championship.

[Vermont Green]

I don't care that the Celtics ran up the score on a Tuesday night vs. a bad CHI team.  Top teams need to play hard in mundane games.  There is nothing wrong with a "I am going to beat you bad" attitude.  But would it have been better for the Celtics long term if some of the bench players got some court time?  Maybe Brissett makes a couple of shots and it breaks him out of his slump, for example.

It does seem that this thing is generating interest or buzz at a point in the season when otherwise there isn't much buzz.  But I would have been just as happy, if not more, if the Celtics didn't "get in" and then got easier competition for a couple of games.  A couple of games where maybe the bench got more playing time, something they need.

[BitterJim]

I am not looking forward to the extra high intensity games v top competition with an extra cross country trip with the possibility of an 83rd game — followed by an intense schedule at home - 2 games each v the Cavs and Magic, and another cross country trip to play both LA teams, GSW, and Sac.   All before Christmas (LAL on Christmas Day). 

VERY reasonable possibility that the stretch following the IST Final in Vegas costs them in seeding for the REAL tournament.  They will be exhausted putting high minutes/effort into the IST (not to mention kicking off the stretch with tomorrow’s game v Sixers) and will be running on fumes by Christmas.  Meanwhile, the Sixers play a relaxed schedule with a 4-day break during the IST and 2 v. Wizards, 2 v. pistons and a game each v. Bulls and Hawks.

I expect the Sixers to be at least 2 games ahead of the Celtics by the end of December.  And surely at least one Celtic comes out of this stretch hurt.

I HATE the IST. I believe there is a decent chance that it costs the Celtics a championship.

I'd put a lot of money on it costing 29 teams the championship (at least, that's what some of their fans will claim)

[jpotter33]

I am not looking forward to the extra high intensity games v top competition with an extra cross country trip with the possibility of an 83rd game — followed by an intense schedule at home - 2 games each v the Cavs and Magic, and another cross country trip to play both LA teams, GSW, and Sac.   All before Christmas (LAL on Christmas Day). 

VERY reasonable possibility that the stretch following the IST Final in Vegas costs them in seeding for the REAL tournament.  They will be exhausted putting high minutes/effort into the IST (not to mention kicking off the stretch with tomorrow’s game v Sixers) and will be running on fumes by Christmas.  Meanwhile, the Sixers play a relaxed schedule with a 4-day break during the IST and 2 v. Wizards, 2 v. pistons and a game each v. Bulls and Hawks.

I expect the Sixers to be at least 2 games ahead of the Celtics by the end of December.  And surely at least one Celtic comes out of this stretch hurt.

I HATE the IST. I believe there is a decent chance that it costs the Celtics a championship.

Feels like this is a bit of an overreaction haha

We're actually getting the rest we need right now, with a handful of games with two days rest in between. Haven't had much of that since the season started. I don't think the potential one extra game and two other potentially more intense games will make much of a difference.

[trickybilly]

I am not looking forward to the extra high intensity games v top competition with an extra cross country trip with the possibility of an 83rd game — followed by an intense schedule at home - 2 games each v the Cavs and Magic, and another cross country trip to play both LA teams, GSW, and Sac.   All before Christmas (LAL on Christmas Day). 

VERY reasonable possibility that the stretch following the IST Final in Vegas costs them in seeding for the REAL tournament.  They will be exhausted putting high minutes/effort into the IST (not to mention kicking off the stretch with tomorrow’s game v Sixers) and will be running on fumes by Christmas.  Meanwhile, the Sixers play a relaxed schedule with a 4-day break during the IST and 2 v. Wizards, 2 v. pistons and a game each v. Bulls and Hawks.

I expect the Sixers to be at least 2 games ahead of the Celtics by the end of December.  And surely at least one Celtic comes out of this stretch hurt.

I HATE the IST. I believe there is a decent chance that it costs the Celtics a championship.

Really, living up to your avatar there Neurotic Guy...

Isn't it just like one extra game? The scheduling clustering will even out to thinning (a tiny bit) later in the saeson.. right when we want to having guys fresh before the playoffs no?

[tenn_smoothie]

Feelings on the In Season Tournament ?

Stylish and not much else.

[wiley]

IST = YUCK

[Neurotic Guy]

I am not looking forward to the extra high intensity games v top competition with an extra cross country trip with the possibility of an 83rd game — followed by an intense schedule at home - 2 games each v the Cavs and Magic, and another cross country trip to play both LA teams, GSW, and Sac.   All before Christmas (LAL on Christmas Day). 

VERY reasonable possibility that the stretch following the IST Final in Vegas costs them in seeding for the REAL tournament.  They will be exhausted putting high minutes/effort into the IST (not to mention kicking off the stretch with tomorrow’s game v Sixers) and will be running on fumes by Christmas.  Meanwhile, the Sixers play a relaxed schedule with a 4-day break during the IST and 2 v. Wizards, 2 v. pistons and a game each v. Bulls and Hawks.

I expect the Sixers to be at least 2 games ahead of the Celtics by the end of December.  And surely at least one Celtic comes out of this stretch hurt.

I HATE the IST. I believe there is a decent chance that it costs the Celtics a championship.

Really, living up to your avatar there Neurotic Guy...

Isn't it just like one extra game? The scheduling clustering will even out to thinning (a tiny bit) later in the saeson.. right when we want to having guys fresh before the playoffs no?

LOL - guilty as charged.  I won’t defend the over worries but I still believe the Cs will be well behind the Sixers by the end of December (worse if Cs lose tonight), and the IST will take some blame for the ultimate seeding even though we’re just in December of a long season. The extra intensity could lead to some problems physically. But I guess the bottom line for me is that I get nothing out of the tournament and I all I see are potential cost.

[Surferdad]

I already disliked the idea of IST before it started. Now I hate it: When you are playing for point differential, it's not basketball the Sport, it's basketball the Video Game.

[Kernewek]

I am not looking forward to the extra high intensity games v top competition with an extra cross country trip with the possibility of an 83rd game — followed by an intense schedule at home - 2 games each v the Cavs and Magic, and another cross country trip to play both LA teams, GSW, and Sac.   All before Christmas (LAL on Christmas Day). 

VERY reasonable possibility that the stretch following the IST Final in Vegas costs them in seeding for the REAL tournament.  They will be exhausted putting high minutes/effort into the IST (not to mention kicking off the stretch with tomorrow’s game v Sixers) and will be running on fumes by Christmas.  Meanwhile, the Sixers play a relaxed schedule with a 4-day break during the IST and 2 v. Wizards, 2 v. pistons and a game each v. Bulls and Hawks.

I expect the Sixers to be at least 2 games ahead of the Celtics by the end of December.  And surely at least one Celtic comes out of this stretch hurt.

I HATE the IST. I believe there is a decent chance that it costs the Celtics a championship.

Really, living up to your avatar there Neurotic Guy...

Isn't it just like one extra game? The scheduling clustering will even out to thinning (a tiny bit) later in the saeson.. right when we want to having guys fresh before the playoffs no?

LOL - guilty as charged.  I won’t defend the over worries but I still believe the Cs will be well behind the Sixers by the end of December (worse if Cs lose tonight), and the IST will take some blame for the ultimate seeding even though we’re just in December of a long season. The extra intensity could lead to some problems physically. But I guess the bottom line for me is that I get nothing out of the tournament and I all I see are potential cost.

Tatum is playing 37MPG right now, which is high, but no one else on the team is cracking 35 (Holiday and Brown are close). They're young guys, so I don't think they should be particularly worn down by the end of the year. Freak injuries are always a worry, but you can't particularly control for them.

[SparzWizard]

Last night was awesome. 

Scoreboard watching a Raptors/Nets game in November?  Who would've ever thought that. 

Obviously, if someone tears their ACL during the IST Finals and goes out for the season, then I'm singing a different tune, though.

Out of curiosity, how do you see that as different from any other regular season game? The injury could happen in a non IST game. It’s still the same.

Well, a starter playing in the 4th quarter with a 30 point lead playing for point differential wouldn't be happening in a regular game. 

In regards to the IST playoffs, I'm assuming the game is going to be played on another effort level as teams try to win the tournament.  Having a guy play 44 minutes in a December game trying to win a tournament game has more opportunity to injure himself.  A normal December game that might even be a rest game for a star turns into a max effort game. 

You're right that people can get injured at any moment, though.

Yeah I remember Kemba Walker got injured in an ASG and eventually resulted in Celtics losing to the Heat in the playoffs.