Author Topic: Supermax clearly does not work. Franchise tag is a better tool  (Read 5356 times)

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Re: Supermax clearly does not work. Franchise tag is a better tool
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2019, 08:46:16 PM »

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The players are making noise about playing for "owners."  There is no way in hell a provision limiting free agent movement goes anywhere. Nonstarter.

The cap is the problem. It is supposed to constrain big city spending to level the field, but endorsements exceed NBA salary. The huge contract could keep a player ina small market  but then the team is cap screwed. They need a break. Also, there may be more max slots on rosters than max players in the league. Maybe keep the cap, get rid of the max.

Re: Supermax clearly does not work. Franchise tag is a better tool
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2019, 10:27:23 PM »

Offline footey

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Seems it is everyone’s interest, players, owners and fans, to have a system that is designed to keep talent evenly distributed among all 30 teams. Competitive balance. Baseball has more free agency than any other sport but is more balanced because of the nature of the sport; no baseball team is dominated by 1-2 players. Same with football.

Basketball has to figure this out. This is not about money. It’s about keeping competitive balance.

Re: Supermax clearly does not work. Franchise tag is a better tool
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2019, 10:44:01 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I don't understand why supermax doesn't work.  Seems to be working just fine to me.

I mean, if the goal was to create some of the worst contracts in the league, it's been successful so far.

It certainly hasn't given small market teams an advantage in holding onto their franchise players.

The stars don't seem to care that they'll be giving up money, because they know they're going to make a ton on endorsements anyway.

The only guys who will be swayed by the supermax will be guys who really shouldn't get one, but who might get one from a desperate and/or stupid franchise.
Players have left big markets though as well.  Players have just flat out rejected major markets for smaller ones as well.  For the most part, the players that leave tend to leave for 1 of 3 reasons: 1. the team just can't build a winner; 2. they have a personality conflict; 3. they just want to live somewhere else (and that is for any number of reasons). 

I honestly don't feel sorry for New Orleans (Davis), Cleveland (James the 1st time), Minnesota (Garnett), etc.  They all had years to build a winner around their stars and never could do it and for the most part could never do it because they were terribly run franchises.  At the end of the day, players just want to win and be happy doing it.  If you can't do that for the player, there is almost no amount of money is going to keep them around.
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Re: Supermax clearly does not work. Franchise tag is a better tool
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2019, 11:06:07 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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the NBA is an entertainment product for it to work you have to keep a competitive balance ...... the players upset this balance because they are putting winning over the entertainment product. When the players form super teams they upset the entertainment value the fans get, and this will push the fans away and cut into the of the league.

The players that form super teams are hurting the long term interest of the league.

Re: Supermax clearly does not work. Franchise tag is a better tool
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2019, 11:18:02 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Seems it is everyone’s interest, players, owners and fans, to have a system that is designed to keep talent evenly distributed among all 30 teams. Competitive balance. Baseball has more free agency than any other sport but is more balanced because of the nature of the sport; no baseball team is dominated by 1-2 players. Same with football.

Basketball has to figure this out. This is not about money. It’s about keeping competitive balance.

exactly

otherwise it becomes like pickup game teams

The league is already considered a joke from a competitive point of view



Re: Supermax clearly does not work. Franchise tag is a better tool
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2019, 11:21:26 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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I don't understand why supermax doesn't work.  Seems to be working just fine to me.

I mean, if the goal was to create some of the worst contracts in the league, it's been successful so far.

It certainly hasn't given small market teams an advantage in holding onto their franchise players.

The stars don't seem to care that they'll be giving up money, because they know they're going to make a ton on endorsements anyway.

The only guys who will be swayed by the supermax will be guys who really shouldn't get one, but who might get one from a desperate and/or stupid franchise.
Players have left big markets though as well.  Players have just flat out rejected major markets for smaller ones as well.  For the most part, the players that leave tend to leave for 1 of 3 reasons: 1. the team just can't build a winner; 2. they have a personality conflict; 3. they just want to live somewhere else (and that is for any number of reasons). 

I honestly don't feel sorry for New Orleans (Davis), Cleveland (James the 1st time), Minnesota (Garnett), etc.  They all had years to build a winner around their stars and never could do it and for the most part could never do it because they were terribly run franchises.  At the end of the day, players just want to win and be happy doing it.  If you can't do that for the player, there is almost no amount of money is going to keep them around.

They can't do it because FAs don't want to sign with these small market teams.  Not top notch FAs

What is an owner to do?  A team with KG is good enough to make the playoffs but not good enough to draft a high pick.  And also can't attract top notch FAs

The franchise tag at least keeps things honest because if you want to sign Lebron....well you need to compensate us.   At least this way team A can't become/remain a power team while you lose a key player and are on the road to rebuild which can take 7 years these days

Re: Supermax clearly does not work. Franchise tag is a better tool
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2019, 12:25:00 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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I think it's fun to talk about ways we could change the CBA, but I think the truth of it is that the NBA generally likes things the way they are.

I suspect some small market teams would like a way to penalize players that ask for trades, but the NBA as a whole like the year round drama and 24/7 rumor mongering. They like casual fans to get excited about the notion of Player X going to New York or LA next year.

And the rank and file NBA players like that star salary is artificially low because it means they get to be paid $15-25 million just for being good enough to start for middle of the road team.
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Re: Supermax clearly does not work. Franchise tag is a better tool
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2019, 01:26:51 AM »

Offline Emmette Bryant

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Whenever I see "supermax" I think of the Unabomber.

Re: Supermax clearly does not work. Franchise tag is a better tool
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2019, 04:11:07 AM »

Offline Chris22

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Whenever I see "supermax" I think of the Unabomber.

I thought of El Chapo.

Re: Supermax clearly does not work. Franchise tag is a better tool
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2019, 04:49:18 AM »

Offline JSD

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I actually love this idea, unfortunately it would be a hard sell to the players association.
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Re: Supermax clearly does not work. Franchise tag is a better tool
« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2019, 06:33:54 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I don't understand why supermax doesn't work.  Seems to be working just fine to me.

I mean, if the goal was to create some of the worst contracts in the league, it's been successful so far.

It certainly hasn't given small market teams an advantage in holding onto their franchise players.

The stars don't seem to care that they'll be giving up money, because they know they're going to make a ton on endorsements anyway.

The only guys who will be swayed by the supermax will be guys who really shouldn't get one, but who might get one from a desperate and/or stupid franchise.
Players have left big markets though as well.  Players have just flat out rejected major markets for smaller ones as well.  For the most part, the players that leave tend to leave for 1 of 3 reasons: 1. the team just can't build a winner; 2. they have a personality conflict; 3. they just want to live somewhere else (and that is for any number of reasons). 

I honestly don't feel sorry for New Orleans (Davis), Cleveland (James the 1st time), Minnesota (Garnett), etc.  They all had years to build a winner around their stars and never could do it and for the most part could never do it because they were terribly run franchises.  At the end of the day, players just want to win and be happy doing it.  If you can't do that for the player, there is almost no amount of money is going to keep them around.

They can't do it because FAs don't want to sign with these small market teams.  Not top notch FAs

What is an owner to do?  A team with KG is good enough to make the playoffs but not good enough to draft a high pick.  And also can't attract top notch FAs

The franchise tag at least keeps things honest because if you want to sign Lebron....well you need to compensate us.   At least this way team A can't become/remain a power team while you lose a key player and are on the road to rebuild which can take 7 years these days
The Wolves violated league rules and lost 4 1st round picks (originally 5 the league gave 1 back when they settled - they may have given another one back later on, I couldn't confirm that).  How much different is Minnesota with all those extra 1st round picks to use or trade.  The Cavs also tried to usurp salary cap rules by letting Boozer out of his contract a year early and then tried to sign him for lower dollars.  Boozer left for Utah.  How much different is Cleveland that first time with Boozer there playing 2nd fiddle to Lebron (you know a guy that made multiple all star teams, an all NBA team, and twice received MVP votes (finished 9th and 14th))?  Not to mention all of the terrible trades and draft picks they made throughout James' time there.  How many bad contracts did New Orleans give out?  Heck they still have a couple on the roster.  What about all of the ill advised trades? 

As the 2nd Cavs stint has shown, free agents will sign with small market teams that have a chance to win.  Heck Lopez just signed in Minnesota.  Look at all of the players that have gone to Indiana the last couple of seasons.  Players have consistently shown they want to win and will sign on any team that gives them that opportunity. 
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Re: Supermax clearly does not work. Franchise tag is a better tool
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2019, 03:30:29 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I don't understand why supermax doesn't work.  Seems to be working just fine to me.

I mean, if the goal was to create some of the worst contracts in the league, it's been successful so far.

It certainly hasn't given small market teams an advantage in holding onto their franchise players.

The stars don't seem to care that they'll be giving up money, because they know they're going to make a ton on endorsements anyway.

The only guys who will be swayed by the supermax will be guys who really shouldn't get one, but who might get one from a desperate and/or stupid franchise.
Players have left big markets though as well.  Players have just flat out rejected major markets for smaller ones as well.  For the most part, the players that leave tend to leave for 1 of 3 reasons: 1. the team just can't build a winner; 2. they have a personality conflict; 3. they just want to live somewhere else (and that is for any number of reasons). 

I honestly don't feel sorry for New Orleans (Davis), Cleveland (James the 1st time), Minnesota (Garnett), etc.  They all had years to build a winner around their stars and never could do it and for the most part could never do it because they were terribly run franchises.  At the end of the day, players just want to win and be happy doing it.  If you can't do that for the player, there is almost no amount of money is going to keep them around.

They can't do it because FAs don't want to sign with these small market teams.  Not top notch FAs

What is an owner to do?  A team with KG is good enough to make the playoffs but not good enough to draft a high pick.  And also can't attract top notch FAs

The franchise tag at least keeps things honest because if you want to sign Lebron....well you need to compensate us.   At least this way team A can't become/remain a power team while you lose a key player and are on the road to rebuild which can take 7 years these days
The Wolves violated league rules and lost 4 1st round picks (originally 5 the league gave 1 back when they settled - they may have given another one back later on, I couldn't confirm that).  How much different is Minnesota with all those extra 1st round picks to use or trade.  The Cavs also tried to usurp salary cap rules by letting Boozer out of his contract a year early and then tried to sign him for lower dollars.  Boozer left for Utah.  How much different is Cleveland that first time with Boozer there playing 2nd fiddle to Lebron (you know a guy that made multiple all star teams, an all NBA team, and twice received MVP votes (finished 9th and 14th))?  Not to mention all of the terrible trades and draft picks they made throughout James' time there.  How many bad contracts did New Orleans give out?  Heck they still have a couple on the roster.  What about all of the ill advised trades? 

As the 2nd Cavs stint has shown, free agents will sign with small market teams that have a chance to win.  Heck Lopez just signed in Minnesota.  Look at all of the players that have gone to Indiana the last couple of seasons.  Players have consistently shown they want to win and will sign on any team that gives them that opportunity.
OKC was able to keep Westbrook and George. Also, San Antonio was able to keep Duncan, Manu, Parker and entice LaMarcus Aldridge. The longest dynasty of modern NBA times occurred in a small market with amazing management, San Antonio. I could easily see Lillard staying in Portland for many more years.

Re: Supermax clearly does not work. Franchise tag is a better tool
« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2019, 03:36:49 PM »

Online RJ87

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I don't understand why supermax doesn't work.  Seems to be working just fine to me.

I mean, if the goal was to create some of the worst contracts in the league, it's been successful so far.

It certainly hasn't given small market teams an advantage in holding onto their franchise players.

The stars don't seem to care that they'll be giving up money, because they know they're going to make a ton on endorsements anyway.

The only guys who will be swayed by the supermax will be guys who really shouldn't get one, but who might get one from a desperate and/or stupid franchise.
Players have left big markets though as well.  Players have just flat out rejected major markets for smaller ones as well.  For the most part, the players that leave tend to leave for 1 of 3 reasons: 1. the team just can't build a winner; 2. they have a personality conflict; 3. they just want to live somewhere else (and that is for any number of reasons). 

I honestly don't feel sorry for New Orleans (Davis), Cleveland (James the 1st time), Minnesota (Garnett), etc.  They all had years to build a winner around their stars and never could do it and for the most part could never do it because they were terribly run franchises.  At the end of the day, players just want to win and be happy doing it.  If you can't do that for the player, there is almost no amount of money is going to keep them around.

They can't do it because FAs don't want to sign with these small market teams.  Not top notch FAs

What is an owner to do?  A team with KG is good enough to make the playoffs but not good enough to draft a high pick.  And also can't attract top notch FAs

The franchise tag at least keeps things honest because if you want to sign Lebron....well you need to compensate us.   At least this way team A can't become/remain a power team while you lose a key player and are on the road to rebuild which can take 7 years these days
The Wolves violated league rules and lost 4 1st round picks (originally 5 the league gave 1 back when they settled - they may have given another one back later on, I couldn't confirm that).  How much different is Minnesota with all those extra 1st round picks to use or trade.  The Cavs also tried to usurp salary cap rules by letting Boozer out of his contract a year early and then tried to sign him for lower dollars.  Boozer left for Utah.  How much different is Cleveland that first time with Boozer there playing 2nd fiddle to Lebron (you know a guy that made multiple all star teams, an all NBA team, and twice received MVP votes (finished 9th and 14th))?  Not to mention all of the terrible trades and draft picks they made throughout James' time there.  How many bad contracts did New Orleans give out?  Heck they still have a couple on the roster.  What about all of the ill advised trades? 

As the 2nd Cavs stint has shown, free agents will sign with small market teams that have a chance to win.  Heck Lopez just signed in Minnesota.  Look at all of the players that have gone to Indiana the last couple of seasons.  Players have consistently shown they want to win and will sign on any team that gives them that opportunity.
OKC was able to keep Westbrook and George. Also, San Antonio was able to keep Duncan, Manu, Parker and entice LaMarcus Aldridge. The longest dynasty of modern NBA times occurred in a small market with amazing management, San Antonio. I could easily see Lillard staying in Portland for many more years.

Agreed. If a team builds a winner or show themselves capable of doing so, they'll have a chance. I mean, until Lebron, the Lakers had whiffed on a slew of major free agents the past few years because of how the franchise has been run. Durant wouldn't even take a meeting. With the exception of a few guys - winning still takes precedence. Where it gets unique is when guys win championships young (like Kawhi and to a lesser a extent, Lakers era Lebron) and they feel like they have nothing to prove in terms of winning, then those guys might take a harder look at the market.
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Re: Supermax clearly does not work. Franchise tag is a better tool
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2019, 04:47:47 PM »

Offline JBcat

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Seems it is everyone’s interest, players, owners and fans, to have a system that is designed to keep talent evenly distributed among all 30 teams. Competitive balance. Baseball has more free agency than any other sport but is more balanced because of the nature of the sport; no baseball team is dominated by 1-2 players. Same with football.

Basketball has to figure this out. This is not about money. It’s about keeping competitive balance.

I have no issue with the balance of power in the NBA.  What happened with the Warriors and Durant was an anomaly with the big spike in the salary cap otherwise they are homegrown talent.  Teams like Denver and Milwaukee are legit contenders that aren’t big market teams.  I love the soft cap structure we have now, but with a couple tweaks (like I proposed in a previous post minimum of 3 years for max contracts-compensation for teams similar to baseball when FAs leave ect).

It’s very hard to compare the NFL to the NBA.  In the NFL you have 45 man rosters so, and the most important position QB it’s not like they can conspire to play with each other like in basketball.

In baseball there is definitely a competitive imbalance.  Look at how much the Sox, Yankees, and Dodgers spend over a team like the Rays and Twins.

Re: Supermax clearly does not work. Franchise tag is a better tool
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2019, 05:36:01 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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It doesn't seem like the NBA is actually very interested in competitive balance, though.

I think they pay lip service to it, because there's a contingent of owners from small markets they need to placate.

But at the end of the day the league wants to be popular, and they're never so popular as when there are super teams in big markets and speculation about which star is going to end up where eats up the sports news cycle year round.
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