CB Draft Finals: (1) Mavericks vs. (1) Bulls

[ronaldo943]

Chicago doesn't have the better team, but they do have bigger names overall, and they've got a more sympathetic GM.  That's all it takes in this game.  I give a tip of the hat to those who stayed open-minded and who actually tried to appreciate what this series would look like on the court. 

I dont understand how you can say this, you have the biggest player names in LeBron James, its not like you have a bunch of good players(you do have good players but by this i mean you have the MVP so you cant say you loss because of bigger names) and a great depth squad who end up playing against a team that relies on its BIG3 and they end up losing because the other team has
"3 all stars" oh wait im talking about my team sorry Should have won that series

[Who]

Thabo is too limited offensively. The Bulls could hide Jrue or Jack on him easily enough.

So have Thabo set a screen and force a switch? It wouldn't work 100% of the time but it would still be very effective in forcing a lot of mismatches.

I don't think you'd be able to force many switches. Thabo is too weak offensively.

Say in a pick and roll, the opposing team just help off of Thabo on the ball-handler and recover to Thabo when the ball-handler is forced wide of the lane and after his defender has recovered onto him.

So what if they throw the ball to an open Thabo 20 feet from the basket. If those are the shots / offensive opportunities you are giving up to the other team (when LeBron and Kyrie are on it), you'll happily take that.

Much easier to force the switch when the other guy is an offensive threat. You might get a couple but they'll be few and far between and you'll have to work very hard to get them. I say, they'd be better off just running their regular offense.

[jgod213]

Thabo is too limited offensively. The Bulls could hide Jrue or Jack on him easily enough.

So have Thabo set a screen and force a switch? It wouldn't work 100% of the time but it would still be very effective in forcing a lot of mismatches.

Maybe some, but wouldn't Chicago just tell its defenders to double James off Thabo screens and force him to back it out to Thabo?

I don't think it's wise to put such a limited offensive player in such a tight space with LeBron.  Why give Chicago the ability to double off of Thabo so easily?

[Kane3387]

Thabo is too limited offensively. The Bulls could hide Jrue or Jack on him easily enough.

So have Thabo set a screen and force a switch? It wouldn't work 100% of the time but it would still be very effective in forcing a lot of mismatches.

Maybe some, but wouldn't Chicago just tell its defenders to double James off Thabo screens and force him to back it out to Thabo?

I don't think it's wise to put such a limited offensive player in such a tight space with LeBron.  Why give Chicago the ability to double off of Thabo so easily?

That's a fair point. I guess you have to send him as a cutter like you would Avery Bradley. With Sam Young and Chris Bosh down low there is no threat of shot blocking or rim protection. So I think that would work.

[CelticsFan9]

First off, I'm going with Dallas.  Here's why:

People are saying that Kyrie Irving's defense is bad.  Last time I checked, Jrue Holiday wasn't an offensive juggernaut.  Plus, another year of experience on offense for Irving makes playing him on D that much more difficult for Holiday.

Chris Bosh is soft.  He's an Allstar, a solid offensive rebounder, very good midrange jump shooter, but he's soft.  He doesn't like to bang, and I can tell you right now Brand and Varejao like to bang(let's be mature here, everyone; no giggling, OK?).

To me, Thaddeus Young is not a PF.  Sure you can play him there, but I don't think he'll fare well against a guy like Jeff Green who has a polished post game.

Wade's on the decline, and Thabo Sefolosha is smacking his chops.  Imagine, just for a second, if Wade wasn't the athletic freak that he is.  With that athleticism draining more quickly, I can see Sefolosha stopping Wade or Pierce.

Finally, LeBron James.  There's a reason he was the first pick in the 2012 CB Draft.  There's a reason he's the best player on the planet right now.  Don't be surprised if he averages a triple-double in this Finals series.

Done with matchups.  On to team play:

I think we can all agree Dallas has the better defensive team.  Chicago has absolutely no post presence, and Dallas is incredibly athletic on the perimeter.  If Chicago tries winning this series on jumpers...  Well, good luck with that.

Dallas has a much more versatile offensive lineup than Chicago.  They can post with Green, LeBron, and Brand, or take it outside with Irving and Gordon.

Chicago's got Dwyane "I like to gyrate in the air when going for a layup just to get a foul call" Wade, Chris "jump shooting big man" Bosh, and Paul Pierce as their options on offense, against an elite defensive team.

Overall, when you've got the best player in the world and an up-and-coming star guard, you will probably beat two stars on the decline and a soft Allstar.

Dallas in 6.

[Kane3387]

I think I like Dallas and here is why. It's Lebron James. Sounds simple, but it's kind of like when Jordan played. Jordan basically won when he played a complete season with Chicago when he entered his prime and the discovered then level of sacrifice it took to win a title.

LeBron is the best player in the world and the best player in this series by far. He performed consistently in the playoffs at a level that the world hadn't seen since Michael Jordan played for the Bulls.

Oh yeah he now understands what it takes to win a Ring.

Dwyane Wade, Chicago' best player, by far, can't hold a candle to Lebron James.

A point could be made that in 2011 Wade carried James. But what happened? They lost.
In 2012 James carried Wade and what happened? They won. It's now going to be two years since Wade played well in 2011 and was being guarded by Deshawn Stevenson and Jason Kidd.

He is two years older. Athletically and physically he has regressed. And he is being guarded by Lebron now. James on the other hand is confident and in command. He is entering his prime and I believe that his impact on the game and in this series would be three times what Dwyane wade would bring to the table. Again James is defending Wade.

You could argue let Lebron get his and stop everyone else.

I don't see how this works.

I mean the beauty of James is not just the ability to take over from a scoring standpoint but also his ability to use that ability to get others involved. We haven't seen guys like that since Bird and Magic. Chicago will have to help on James or he will score almost every time down the floor.

Irving's shooting makes it incredibly hard to shut him down and provide help defense against James. I would rather Irving shoot threes then James get into the paint at will also. Then you're looking at fouls, free throws, and higher percentage possessions. So I think staying on Kyrie is a mistake if it means not providing help defense on James.

Chicago's lack of shot blocking destroys any chance of winning in my opinion. It allows Band and Varejao to get easy looks off James passing without any fear of their limited athleticism being exploited by rim protection. It also makes it almost impossible to not only stop, but even deter, James from the rim once he gets there. Which he will almost every time if you let him get his and try to shut everyone else down.

I like Dallas. Again, simply because of Lebron James in this matchup.

[action781]

So much garbage to sift through in this thread.  Some thoughts:

*Pierce may have shot under .500 in 17/19 playoff games.  But he was guarded by the two top wing defenders - Iggy and Lebron - in two of those series.  If you keep Lebron on Pierce, you will clearly limit him considerably, but Wade could go off.  If you do opt to put Lebron on Wade, I think you will contain Wade a ton, but Pierce won't be as ineffective as you claim.  I see him capable of putting up something similar to the 12, 36, 21, 24, 16, 18 points he put up in 6 games vs. Atlanta and probably shooting around 44-46% over the series as a whole if not guarded by Lebron.

*As Who pointed out, I don't think that Jrue has actually regressed while his statistics have.  I think he brings a lot to the table that doesn't show up in the box score.

*I think that Chicago won't be able to keep Dallas off the boards.  "Protecting the rim" is a little overrated in my opinion, and that the real protection of the rim happens out on the perimeter by not letting your man beat you.  Even the best of the defensive bigs get absolutely slammed on by perimeter players now and then.

This is a TOUGH series!  Roy's mentioning of politics/people not liking him turns me off and almost sways me the other way, but I stick with the basketball and vote Dallas.

[ronaldo943]

It looks like Dallas is making a comeback

[jgod213]

Haha maybe this was Roy's ploy all along?  Get some symphathy going and let the voters battle it out...all while Roy...and IP, spend this lovely afternoon with family.  Those devious sonsa-b's.

Anyways, I'm still on the fence here.  Gonna wait it out a bit.

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To me, Thaddeus Young is not a PF.  Sure you can play him there, but I don't think he'll fare well against a guy like Jeff Green who has a polished post game.

Thad Young is a 4, whether ya like it or not.  I'm not trying to be a jerk, it's just that he plays almost exclusively at the 4.  He certainly isn't totally "refined," but Jeff Green is isn't either.  The dude missed a year of NBA ball!? How he be refined?

[ronaldo943]

Haha maybe this was Roy's ploy all along?  Get some symphathy going and let the voters battle it out...all while Roy...and IP, spend this lovely afternoon with family.  Those devious sonsa-b's.

Lol, i dont think it was his plan but i will admit he made me want to change my vote.

[CelticsFan9]

Haha maybe this was Roy's ploy all along?  Get some symphathy going and let the voters battle it out...all while Roy...and IP, spend this lovely afternoon with family.  Those devious sonsa-b's.

Anyways, I'm still on the fence here.  Gonna wait it out a bit.

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To me, Thaddeus Young is not a PF.  Sure you can play him there, but I don't think he'll fare well against a guy like Jeff Green who has a polished post game.

Thad Young is a 4, whether ya like it or not.  I'm not trying to be a jerk, it's just that he plays almost exclusively at the 4.  He certainly isn't totally "refined," but Jeff Green is isn't either.  The dude missed a year of NBA ball!? How he be refined?

Don't worry, you're not coming off as one.

Jeff Green does have a good post game.  He had one before the heart surgery, and I'm sure it'll be fine post-surgery.  In college, the guy was a beast in the post.  I wish OKC has used him there a lot more, but he was seen more as a stretch-4, so he started to shoot mainly jumpers.

One of my hopes this year is KG helping Green to take his post game to another level.  Jeff Green's post game is already top 5 among all small forwards in the NBA.

[Kane3387]

Jeff Green's post game is already top 5 among all small forwards in the NBA.

Wow I hope you are right about this!

[The Walker Wiggle]

*Another of those GMs has never voted for one of my teams past the second round in any season.

I'm calling out 12-14 of you right now, same charge.

[indeedproceed]

I'm going to answer some questions, and then enjoy the rest of my afternoon and evening with my family.  I'm not going to waste time arguing when some many folks have their minds made up and have decided to just spout conventional wisdom.

I'd like to make a point here. Roy is obviously frustrated, ('salivating on IP's Jock'? Nonsense? Yikes.) he feels like he has the better team, and he thinks he might not win. He's also talked himself into his team as being the best team in the league for a few weeks now.

But that does not mean if you disagree with him, you're dumb or don't know basketball. It does not mean that voting for my team led by Dwyane Wade, Paul Pierce, and Chris Bosh is 'against conventional wisdom'. It doesn't mean you're voting for me cuz you like my swag, and don't like Roy's 'swag'. It just means you disagree with Roy, and hed really like it if you didn't.

Don't get caught up in the politics, vote how ya feel.

If you think Holiday snuffing out Irving's lights last season doesn't matter, fine. I can understand that. 'Conventional Wisdom' would say that an elite defensive pg who has shut another pg down in past meetings could do it again.

If you think that a team with Elton Brand, Jeff Green, Andy Varejao, and Ben Gordon playing a ton of minutes, plus Lebron James and Kyrie Irving can win a title against a team that has a starting 5 of Holiday, Wade, Pierce, Young, and Bosh, cool. I disagree.

I don't like the way the thread has turned, and I'm goin to the bar with my wife. I might be back on if she gets hammered early and goes to bed, I might not.

Go Bulls!!

[indeedproceed]

LeBron James is awesome. He is. He's awesome.

But if I trot out Young/Pierce who does Lebron take? Pierce, right? So that makes Jeff 'No Heart' Green a 4 against Young. We all know how that goes; Jeff Green is a crappy 4.

What if I trot out Pierce/Bosh at the forwards? Who does LeBron take? Cuz the other guy is going to eat Jeff Green alive.

What about if I go small and trot out Wade/Pierce at the forwards? Sorry Jeff Green, ya just got roasted.

This is why I'm currently leaning Chicago - the Mavericks are going to have a tough time hiding Green from Pierce and Bosh and helping Kyrie at the same time. Lebron is the best defensive small forward in the league but at the 4 he's not a rim protector and as good as Varejao is defensively he's not a weak side shot blocker. Then Sefolosha can't afford to help off Wade. Chicago has one 20ppg scorer too many for the Mavs.

This was my reasoning. If Holiday can limit Irving, and even outscore him, there are just too many options for Chicago