Author Topic: i don't see how tony allen fits  (Read 14019 times)

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Re: i don't see how tony allen fits
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2008, 10:38:55 PM »

Offline cordobes

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What does it mean to "fill a void?" What void? This team already has three great shooters: Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and Eddie House. And Garnett can shoot the rock too.

I think the problem arises substantially from the fact that Rondo is an extremely poor shooter and the absence of a 4 who can shoot the 3, a la Troy Murphy or Posey (except Scalabrine).

A situation where one of the swingmen gets in early foul trouble, for example, becomes problematic (or, an even worse scenario, Ray Allen and KG at the same time). A duo of Tony Allen/Rondo is probably the worst combo of guards in regard to outside shooting in the history of the league - I can't remember a worse one, feel free to point it out if you do, because this is a issue that makes me curious. Anyway, this won't be a problem during the regular season, but coming the play-offs, teams will be well prepared to try to take advantage of this. It's hard to keep the offense working when the other team can simply play defense within a range of 15ft from the basket and offer long-range shots to 4 of the players on the floor and turn the backs on them whenever they're hanging around the perimeter. See the problems the Lakers and the Cavs caused with Delonte and Kobe roaming off Rondo, then multiply it by 2 or 3. Another good example is how the Sixers are struggling, most of the teams are playing zones on them and daring their perimeter players to fire from the outside.


Re: i don't see how tony allen fits
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2008, 12:06:56 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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ta was hitting 3's consistently at one point last season if i remember correctly. but then again, rondo was shooting last season too.

TA didn't hit a three from Feb 20 through the end of the season including playoffs. That should tell you something.

Where on earth is the shooting coach on the Celtics?! We have a few guys that could dramatically improve with some consistent coaching.

Re: i don't see how tony allen fits
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2008, 12:35:40 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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ta was hitting 3's consistently at one point last season if i remember correctly. but then again, rondo was shooting last season too.

TA didn't hit a three from Feb 20 through the end of the season including playoffs. That should tell you something.

Where on earth is the shooting coach on the Celtics?! We have a few guys that could dramatically improve with some consistent coaching.
If only it was that simple.

Re: i don't see how tony allen fits
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2008, 12:36:21 PM »

Offline Birdbrain

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What does it mean to "fill a void?" What void? This team already has three great shooters: Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and Eddie House. And Garnett can shoot the rock too.

I don't care if TA is a "well-rounded" player. It's more important that what he does-- play defense and slash to the hoop-- he does very, very well.

I believe what he and some others are concerned with is that he isn't filling the ever iconic James Posey's 3pt shooting void.  Of course he's not really supposed to do that so their concerns are unfounded IMO.  James Posey couldn't slash so he's adding to the void that is the ever iconic James Posey's void.
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Re: i don't see how tony allen fits
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2008, 12:40:51 PM »

Offline Brickowski

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Both TA and Rondo can get to the rim  virtually at will. So let them do what they do best.

TA has a decent jumper from 15 ft.  That's all he needs.  Rondo's jumper seems to have deserted him. but it will return.

I'm really not worried about the Celtics as presently constituted.  I don't believe there is a team in the East that can stop them in a playoff series, and the only team in the West that I see as a real threat is New Orleans, or possibly SA if they get all of their stars back healthy.

Re: i don't see how tony allen fits
« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2008, 01:00:01 PM »

Offline cordobes

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Both TA and Rondo can get to the rim  virtually at will. So let them do what they do best.

How exactly can players get to the rim at will when facing, for example, a compact 2-3 zone, no matter how good they are doing it? I mean, if you have  an answer to this question, you can become an instant billionaire, there's a fortune to be made on books and dvds.

Re: i don't see how tony allen fits
« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2008, 01:01:26 PM »

Offline moiso

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I'm not sure about TA having a good 15ft jumper.  Has he made one this year?

Re: i don't see how tony allen fits
« Reply #52 on: November 12, 2008, 01:05:29 PM »

Offline moiso

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In reality no team is going to play a compact 3-2 zone to stop Tony Allen, so he pretty much can get to the rim at will.

Re: i don't see how tony allen fits
« Reply #53 on: November 12, 2008, 01:19:03 PM »

Offline cordobes

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In reality no team is going to play a compact 3-2 zone to stop Tony Allen, so he pretty much can get to the rim at will.

In the regular season, teams don't make big adjustments from game to game, they just stick to their regular schemes and make minor tweaks; although more and more NBA teams are using zones or quasi-zones.

In the play-offs, teams will throw zones at us every time Rondo and Tony Allen are paired together on the back-court. Just like they quit guarding Rondo man-to-man when he was behind the line last season or off-the-ball. Why wouldn't they?

Re: i don't see how tony allen fits
« Reply #54 on: November 12, 2008, 01:49:54 PM »

Offline moiso

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Substitute house for rondo and the problem is solved.

Re: i don't see how tony allen fits
« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2008, 01:53:34 PM »

Offline Birdbrain

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No teams run straight 2-3 zone in the regular season or the playoffs.  They hedge a lot like the Lakers tried during the finals and Doc brought in the House and that was all she wrote.  So no neither Rondo or Allen need to shoot like James Posey for the C's to be successful.  The C's have plenty of shooters.
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Re: i don't see how tony allen fits
« Reply #56 on: November 12, 2008, 04:58:48 PM »

Offline cordobes

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Substitute house for rondo and the problem is solved.

Well, sure, if the problem is having Tony Allen and Rondo paired together on the backcourt, there's no problem if Tony Allen and Rondo are not paired together on the backcourt.

But I don't think that's the point. There is always a solution for everything: if your tallest center is 6'5'', you will front the post, fight the entry pass and problem solved. Well, in a sense, sure, it's solved. But even if there's more than one way to skin a cat, there still is a way that is better than the other.

Playing House will also mean that you'll lose Rondo's defensive prowess and distributing skills, for example. Playing your backup pg instead of the starter also creates problems that could be avoided if there wasn't the initial problem. And so on.

Fortunately, and watching the games since the pre-season, it's pretty obvious that Doc is going to address this issue (to not call it a problem, in order to avoid misunderstandings) in a more sophisticated and careful way than simply "put House in and problem solved".

More generally, and about the zones, teams can't play many pure zones because of the defensive 3 seconds rule, so those zones are generally used for short stretches to create doubt and confusion on the opponent (although some teams have used efficiently in the past for the length of entire play-offs series: Detroit vs. Chicago a couple of years ago comes to mind). However, hybrid systems, matchup-zones, box'1, weak or strong-side zones are becoming increasingly common. It's just a matter of time, as coaches  and players get more and more comfortable playing them, until zones become hegemonic. Phil Jackson, traditionally an hard-core proponent of 1x1 defense, recently said that this season was the first one he was really trying to play zone. For the future of the NBA, man-to-man defense, barring further rules changes, will quickly become a memory in a few years, used very much like zone defense 5/6 years ago - by a couple of teams, for short minutes during selected games.  And that's good, because zones promote better offenses than the 2 man game, post isolation and dribble drive style that became the norm in the NBA.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 05:05:56 PM by cordobes »

Re: i don't see how tony allen fits
« Reply #57 on: November 12, 2008, 06:02:20 PM »

Offline Sweet17

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Quote
so you play ball, huh ?

what does that mean ? basketball seems to be the one game many people think that they can play. "playing ball" down at the Y is not a qualification for pretending you know about basketball - which you obviously don't.

OMG allmighty baller. I didn't know you played ball on your college intramural league I stand corrected. You clearly know basketball.

Quote
shooting a mid-range jumper and a 3-pt.shot are significantly different and Tony Allen's shot does not look to me like it would work as well from long-range as it could from mid-range. he's got that explosive, jerky jump shot, not a smooth release that is based out of his stance (like most good long range guys). so i'd encourage Tony Allen to work on his shooting 17 ft. and in and to learn to use the glass. play to his strengths.


But wait it occured to me that Tony Allen is in the NBA. So he must REALLY know basketball. So if he thinks it's a good idea to take three point shots it really is, right? I mean this is your "logic" isn't it? ****.

In reality - shooting 3 pointers and 17 footers are pretty similiar. You don't have to be a pro basketball player to know that. Two players with funky shots that do well from 3 - Bruce Bowen and Shawn Marion. There is nothing wrong with TA working on his 3 ball.

Re: i don't see how tony allen fits
« Reply #58 on: November 12, 2008, 06:16:05 PM »

Offline KevinGamble

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I think he fits like a glove.  Love the defense which is what we're all about, and he adds more to the offense than perk (arguably, they are both clumsy at times, but both capable, and both make shots that make you hold their breath before they go in.)

Fact is, with playing time, his one charge a game and one dribble off the leg will be washed out by all the times he blows right by his 'defender' and deflates the opposition.  His ability to get a shot off as the clock ticks down is very valuable.  He has a lot of weakness to work on, but he has a strengths few players on the C's have. 
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Re: i don't see how tony allen fits
« Reply #59 on: November 12, 2008, 06:52:24 PM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

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in Tony's Toronto pregame interview (www.celtics.com) he says some very interesting, and very mature things. i love this interview and i think that it shows tony's current state of mind. all is well in TA nation and i think he's just gonna get better and better.

Tony Allen: Explosive slasher, shutdown defender, and i think he'll get back to slam dunk specialist. love him, my second favorite current celtic.