Author Topic: J. Okafor - Merged Thread  (Read 43113 times)

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Re: J. Okafor - Merged Thread
« Reply #180 on: November 01, 2017, 08:00:07 PM »

Offline bogg

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The same Sully that Brad and Danny didn't think enough about to re-sign even after 4 years.  Did Sully get any better during those 4 years?  Don't think so.  That's why he's out of the league.  Not blaming Brad but he's no miracle worker. 

Putting up numbers does not equate to player development.  Sully, Turner and Crawford put up numbers on a team of role players but when they left they showed their limitations.  You might say Brad is good at putting lipstick on a pig.   

Sullinger wasn't re-signed and is currently out of the league because he can't stay under 300 pounds, not because of anything that Stevens did or didn't do or any sort of developmental curve on Jared's part. He can't stay healthy because he can't stay in shape and winds up with weight-related injuries as a result.

Re: J. Okafor - Merged Thread
« Reply #181 on: November 01, 2017, 08:00:11 PM »

Online tazzmaniac

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Sources: 76ers aren't budging on Jahlil Okafor's bid for contract buyout talks. Team plans to continue trade discussions. Interest exists.

What a FANTASTIC Front Office!  :laugh:

"Interest exists"  ::) (Really?? Then why hasn't be been traded after like a year of this...)
Because Colangelo is, or at least was, overvaluing him as a former #3 pick.  You'll note that Okafor commented that he thought there were trades available in the past. 

One holdup at the moment may be Covington's renegotiation and extension which can't be done until Nov 15.  They aren't going to take on more salary this year until after that gets done.   

Re: J. Okafor - Merged Thread
« Reply #182 on: November 01, 2017, 08:06:47 PM »

Offline RJ87

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Why?  Brad couldn't do anything with Young or Sully. 

Coach Brown is a player development coach.  Covington, an undrafted player, has developed into a good starting SF.  McConnell, an undrafted player, is becoming a solid backup PG.  Okafor had plenty of opportunity with the Sixers.  The Sixers moved Noel to PF for most of a season to allow Okafor opportunity to succeed at center.  They tried the same thing with Embiid/Okafor combo for a few games last season.

I just have a feeling that if Jalil Okafor ends up in BOS he'll thrive. Don't ask me how I just know it.

Perhaps it's the team's chemistry and winning culture. Perhaps it's Brad Stevens. Perhaps it's the Banners. Perhaps it's Gino...or Celtic Mystique.

I'm not counting the kid out.

And Young and Sully are different - Okafor used this past offseason to actually lose weight, adapting to a vegan lifestyle. That effort alone puts him in a class above Sully, and Young to a point. The guy showed up to camp in the best shape of his career because he put in the work, they  give a little burn and he looks improved. Philly's response? Have their coach publicly declare he's not in the rotation.

Even after that, he's handling it pretty well. He seems to see the writing's on the wall - he's not a part of the plan in Philly, still wishing the team well but wanting an opportunity. Isn't that what you what guys to do? Want to play? If he just sat on a bench collecting his checks, he'd be a malcontent.
Okafor has made some changes which will hopefully help him succeed.  However that doesn't mean that he deserves to be in the rotation.  Philly is trying to win and make the playoffs.  It says something that Okafor can't beat out Amir or apparently Holmes for playing time backing up Embiid. 

I don't see why he do any better with us.  Whose minutes is he going to take?  Okafor needs to go to the Bulls or Suns where he can get minutes on a team not interested in winning.

From the sounds of it, he's not even being given a chance to earn a spot over Amir. Brad Stevens would never declare a player out of the rotation in November. Brad would encourage guys to stay ready, because they can impact a game at any given moment.

Philly doesn't want him. They supposedly had agreed to a deal last season, even pulling him from a game, and then the deal broke down. They've already made up their mind. Give the kid a chance to play somewhere else.
Okafor had a shot to earn playing time during training camp and preseason.  Teams generally play a 9 or 10 player rotation.  So that means 3 or 4 active players per team are out of the rotation.  Stauskas is out of the Sixers rotation too.  Should they buy him out?

If Brett Brown comes out and declares he's out of the rotation and "that's that", then he should ask for one.
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Re: J. Okafor - Merged Thread
« Reply #183 on: November 01, 2017, 08:14:37 PM »

Offline RJ87

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The same Sully that Brad and Danny didn't think enough about to re-sign even after 4 years.  Did Sully get any better during those 4 years?  Don't think so.  That's why he's out of the league.  Not blaming Brad but he's no miracle worker. 

Putting up numbers does not equate to player development.  Sully, Turner and Crawford put up numbers on a team of role players but when they left they showed their limitations.  You might say Brad is good at putting lipstick on a pig.   


Sullinger wasn't re-signed and is currently out of the league because he can't stay under 300 pounds, not because of anything that Stevens did or didn't do or any sort of developmental curve on Jared's part. He can't stay healthy because he can't stay in shape and winds up with weight-related injuries as a result.

Ding. Ding. We have a winner.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 09:37:04 PM by RJ87 »
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Re: J. Okafor - Merged Thread
« Reply #184 on: November 01, 2017, 08:32:15 PM »

Offline More Banners

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Guys, we have the DPE AND A VETERAN MINIMUM.

If we can get Okafor for one of the two AND still have that extra exception for a future buy-out candidate... DO IT!   8)

I'd rather save the DPE for someone who would play. That exception is how we can outbid other possible contenders when the time comes. I'd take the guy for the minimum, but as far as the DPE goes, I'd rather keep my powder dry.

Unless he comes with a draft pick attached. That's different.

Re: J. Okafor - Merged Thread
« Reply #185 on: November 01, 2017, 08:44:17 PM »

Online tazzmaniac

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The same Sully that Brad and Danny didn't think enough about to re-sign even after 4 years.  Did Sully get any better during those 4 years?  Don't think so.  That's why he's out of the league.  Not blaming Brad but he's no miracle worker. 

Putting up numbers does not equate to player development.  Sully, Turner and Crawford put up numbers on a team of role players but when they left they showed their limitations.  You might say Brad is good at putting lipstick on a pig.   
Sullinger wasn't re-signed and is currently out of the league because he can't stay under 300 pounds, not because of anything that Stevens did or didn't do or any sort of developmental curve on Jared's part. He can't stay healthy because he can't stay in shape and winds up with weight-related injuries as a result.
Regardless of his weight, he really didn't develop much during his 4 years. 

As an aside, he's feasting on the Chinese league.  First two games: 41/10 and 46/25/7.  I knew that league was weak but yikes.   

Re: J. Okafor - Merged Thread
« Reply #186 on: November 01, 2017, 09:04:46 PM »

Offline bogg

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The same Sully that Brad and Danny didn't think enough about to re-sign even after 4 years.  Did Sully get any better during those 4 years?  Don't think so.  That's why he's out of the league.  Not blaming Brad but he's no miracle worker. 

Putting up numbers does not equate to player development.  Sully, Turner and Crawford put up numbers on a team of role players but when they left they showed their limitations.  You might say Brad is good at putting lipstick on a pig.   
Sullinger wasn't re-signed and is currently out of the league because he can't stay under 300 pounds, not because of anything that Stevens did or didn't do or any sort of developmental curve on Jared's part. He can't stay healthy because he can't stay in shape and winds up with weight-related injuries as a result.
Regardless of his weight, he really didn't develop much during his 4 years. 

As an aside, he's feasting on the Chinese league.  First two games: 41/10 and 46/25/7.  I knew that league was weak but yikes.

The guy can't be bothered to say no to a post-practice pizza, nevermind putting in the kind of offseason work to grow your game. Young's another guy who famously coasted on talent and never put in work. Trying to make a point about Stevens using guys who weren't willing to put in work on their own end, and are now out of the league after each giving it a go with at least one other franchise, is disingenuous at best.

Re: J. Okafor - Merged Thread
« Reply #187 on: November 01, 2017, 09:46:42 PM »

Online tazzmaniac

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The same Sully that Brad and Danny didn't think enough about to re-sign even after 4 years.  Did Sully get any better during those 4 years?  Don't think so.  That's why he's out of the league.  Not blaming Brad but he's no miracle worker. 

Putting up numbers does not equate to player development.  Sully, Turner and Crawford put up numbers on a team of role players but when they left they showed their limitations.  You might say Brad is good at putting lipstick on a pig.   
Sullinger wasn't re-signed and is currently out of the league because he can't stay under 300 pounds, not because of anything that Stevens did or didn't do or any sort of developmental curve on Jared's part. He can't stay healthy because he can't stay in shape and winds up with weight-related injuries as a result.
Regardless of his weight, he really didn't develop much during his 4 years. 

As an aside, he's feasting on the Chinese league.  First two games: 41/10 and 46/25/7.  I knew that league was weak but yikes.

The guy can't be bothered to say no to a post-practice pizza, nevermind putting in the kind of offseason work to grow your game. Young's another guy who famously coasted on talent and never put in work. Trying to make a point about Stevens using guys who weren't willing to put in work on their own end, and are now out of the league after each giving it a go with at least one other franchise, is disingenuous at best.
That's exactly the point.  Player development to a large degree depends on the player regardless of how good the coach or organization is. 

Re: J. Okafor - Merged Thread
« Reply #188 on: November 01, 2017, 10:04:45 PM »

Offline bogg

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That's exactly the point.  Player development to a large degree depends on the player regardless of how good the coach or organization is.

By all accounts, Okafor has done everything the Sixers asked him to over the last year or so and is currently in fantastic shape. If he was 40 pounds overweight and the Sixers were making noise about Okafor spending the summer in clubs I'd get the point you're making, but it just doesn't seem applicable here. There are very real concerns about whether Okafor would fit at all and whether the exception would be better used elsewhere, but I really don't have any concerns about him coming in with a poor attitude and refusing to work.

Re: J. Okafor - Merged Thread
« Reply #189 on: November 02, 2017, 08:26:42 AM »

Online tazzmaniac

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That's exactly the point.  Player development to a large degree depends on the player regardless of how good the coach or organization is.

By all accounts, Okafor has done everything the Sixers asked him to over the last year or so and is currently in fantastic shape. If he was 40 pounds overweight and the Sixers were making noise about Okafor spending the summer in clubs I'd get the point you're making, but it just doesn't seem applicable here. There are very real concerns about whether Okafor would fit at all and whether the exception would be better used elsewhere, but I really don't have any concerns about him coming in with a poor attitude and refusing to work.
Last year or so?  He didn't get in shape until this offseason.  That's a start but I've yet to hear him talking about his deficiencies as a player and his efforts to improve them.  Is he working on his defense?  His rebounding?  Expanding his shooting range?  He's talking about his career and playing time.  If we get him and he's still riding the bench which he almost certainly will, what is his attitude going to be?   

I'm not saying Okafor is a lost cause.  But he's a project with an upside of Eric Kanter right now.  We're not the right team for him.   

I'm also not saying Sixers management hasn't mishandled this.  Colangelo is a double talking snake.  Coach Brown though is a player development coach with a defensive focus.  Okafor should have shown some improvement under him. 
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 08:34:58 AM by tazzmaniac »

Re: J. Okafor - Merged Thread
« Reply #190 on: November 02, 2017, 08:38:14 AM »

Offline Big333223

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It seems like a lot of the pro-Jahlil posts come down to "He'll be different when he's away from the Sixers."

But just because the Sixers are a dysfunctional organization does not mean Okafor isn't also a headcase. He's an incredibly smooth offensive player who has never shown an aptitude to be good at any other aspect of basketball either in the pros or college. Where is the evidence that he'll get better at the things he's bad at if he's away from the Sixers?
The general thought is, that a player can't be that offensively talented, both with moves and skill, that he can't be taught to be at least a decent defender.  How can he have such brilliant footwork, hands, post-moves, etc. and not be able to translate that defensively?  How can have such good shooting touch down low and not be able to translate that out to deeper range?  He isn't quick and never will be, but he pretty clearly has talent, the rest can be taught.

He also isn't as bad a rebounder as he has been made out to be.  He also has shown some shot blocking ability.

When people were proposing trading a Brooklyn pick for him two years ago or far Marcus Smart I was vehemently arguing against them because of these limitations. Now that the cost will be just salary or a second round pick, I do think it is worth seeing what CBS could teach him for the Celtics. Lets not forget what he was able to do with Jordan Crawford.
This is the other thing I keep seeing. Brad Stevens being a good coach is not a reason to target Okafor. It's possible that Stevens can help Okafor grow as a player but why is that a reason for the Celtics to not target someone else, who is already better at the things the team needs and let Stevens work with that guy, instead?
I would argue that Okafor provides a skill that no one else on the team provides though.  There isn't a single Celtic that you could consistently feed the ball to in the paint and get a basket.  And while the game has definitely gone further away from the basket, being able to score in the paint is still something a team needs every once in awhile.  Okafor can put the ball in the hoop if you get it to him in position.  He also is credible enough from the line, that he can play in crunch time (if needed) and can't just be fouled as a defensive strategy.
That's a totally sensible argument for Okafor. I would rather see the C's target someone with more versatility to their game but I have no arguments with what you said.

The problem I have is with posts that seem to think Okafor's myriad deficiencies don't matter because Stevens is a good coach. But since Stevens would be coaching whoever the C's bring in, that's not an argument for Okafor.
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Re: J. Okafor - Merged Thread
« Reply #191 on: November 02, 2017, 08:38:49 AM »

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That's exactly the point.  Player development to a large degree depends on the player regardless of how good the coach or organization is.

By all accounts, Okafor has done everything the Sixers asked him to over the last year or so and is currently in fantastic shape. If he was 40 pounds overweight and the Sixers were making noise about Okafor spending the summer in clubs I'd get the point you're making, but it just doesn't seem applicable here. There are very real concerns about whether Okafor would fit at all and whether the exception would be better used elsewhere, but I really don't have any concerns about him coming in with a poor attitude and refusing to work.
Last year or so?  He didn't get in shape until this offseason.  That's a start but I've yet to hear him talking about his deficiencies as a player and his efforts to improve them.  Is he working on his defense?  His rebounding?  Expanding his shooting range?  He's talking about his career and playing time.  If we get him and he's still riding the bench which he almost certainly will, what is his attitude going to be?   

I'm not saying Okafor is a lost cause.  But he's a project with an upside of Eric Kanter right now.  We're not the right team for him.   

I'm also not saying Sixers management hasn't mishandled this.  Colangelo is a double talking snake.  Coach Brown though is a player development coach with a defensive focus.  Okafor should have shown some improvement under him.
His 1 game this year he had more shots from 10-16 feet than any other distance and he hit those at 66.6%. 

This notion that Okafor can't hit a shot outside of the paint is just nonsense.  He has been fairly respectable from 10-16 feet in his career, especially for a young big man.  He has decent touch from the foul line. 

Okafor doesn't have 3 point range, but he can hit an open jumper and has throughout his career.
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Re: J. Okafor - Merged Thread
« Reply #192 on: November 02, 2017, 08:41:40 AM »

Online tazzmaniac

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Saw an article that Colangelo is looking for 2nd round pick(s) for Okafor now and maybe waiting for the Bledsoe trade to shake things up.  I'm still expecting another fake 1st trade to a bad team.   

Re: J. Okafor - Merged Thread
« Reply #193 on: November 02, 2017, 08:47:06 AM »

Offline saltlover

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That's exactly the point.  Player development to a large degree depends on the player regardless of how good the coach or organization is.

By all accounts, Okafor has done everything the Sixers asked him to over the last year or so and is currently in fantastic shape. If he was 40 pounds overweight and the Sixers were making noise about Okafor spending the summer in clubs I'd get the point you're making, but it just doesn't seem applicable here. There are very real concerns about whether Okafor would fit at all and whether the exception would be better used elsewhere, but I really don't have any concerns about him coming in with a poor attitude and refusing to work.
Last year or so?  He didn't get in shape until this offseason.  That's a start but I've yet to hear him talking about his deficiencies as a player and his efforts to improve them.  Is he working on his defense?  His rebounding?  Expanding his shooting range?  He's talking about his career and playing time.  If we get him and he's still riding the bench which he almost certainly will, what is his attitude going to be?   

I'm not saying Okafor is a lost cause.  But he's a project with an upside of Eric Kanter right now.  We're not the right team for him.

It’s really unclear what happened with Okafor over the last 18 or so months.

He had a minor procedure in March 2016, that had a six week recovery time.  But he wasn’t ready for training camp seven months later, and then had surgery again this past March having supposedly felt discomfort all season.  Now, it’s entirely possible that Okafor blew off his rehab. If he played for any other team I’d be set to believe that’s what happened.  But with all the question marks the last few years coming from Philly on injuries, from Embiid, then Simmons, and now Fultz, it seems credible that in fact the Sixers either messed up Okafor’s initial procedure or lied about the severity in order to keep up his trade value.

In short, I just don’t know what to make of what happened to Okafor.  His rookie season went as expected — some dominant inside play on offense, some questionable defense, and a lot of inconsistency.  And then he got hurt, and his career quickly went off the rails, but it’s unclear if that was due to injury, the Sixers inability to play him with a superior Embiid, or Okafor’s own attitude/lack of development.

Re: J. Okafor - Merged Thread
« Reply #194 on: November 02, 2017, 09:07:27 AM »

Offline Green-18

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I was originally against an Okafor trade but my opinion is changing quickly.  This team doesn't NEED anything specific and I think there is only upside to signing Okafor.  I trust in Brad to maximize his potential. 

Aside from Okafor, I'm not sure how we would use the DPE.  Barring injuries I really prefer us to stay away from guards/wings.  There is no reason to interfere with the growth of our current group.  The PF/C spot is the only area that makes sense to me.  An Okafor acquisition is perfect because there is no pressure from him to contribute.