Author Topic: Duality of Celtics Fandom  (Read 2802 times)

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Re: Duality of Celtics Fandom
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2019, 08:30:31 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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We had a “star” last year and lots of “talent” and couldn’t win 50 games.

Chemistry is underrated here.

Davis over-rated here.  Listen to Pels podcast. Excels on his athleticism that masks his low BBIQ.

Let’s look forward to the draft and/or trades and player development.

It’s the journey not the destination.


I agree with you and I've argued the same thing.

But there's also part of me that's impatient and wants to feel confident that the journey has a destination that's not super far off.
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Re: Duality of Celtics Fandom
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2019, 08:36:03 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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No conflict here.  When you have the chance to trade youth for stars you take it.  And when you do, you do everything you can to keep that star happy.

There is nothing fun about watching a team lose 50+ games.  Heck, even making the playoffs as a 7 or 8 seed is tedious after a year or two.

Apparently Ainge and co disagree.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: Duality of Celtics Fandom
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2019, 08:44:52 PM »

Offline jambr380

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No conflict here.  When you have the chance to trade youth for stars you take it.  And when you do, you do everything you can to keep that star happy.

There is nothing fun about watching a team lose 50+ games.  Heck, even making the playoffs as a 7 or 8 seed is tedious after a year or two.

Apparently Ainge and co disagree.

I think Ainge did do everything to keep Kyrie happy - it's just the fans and the media had a much louder voice. Nobody wants to be where they aren't appreciated, especially when it isn't their home.

I was not a Kyrie fanboy, but I recognized that he was a our best player, our greatest asset, and was playing at a level the young guys can only hope to one day reach. Boston fans have been spoiled lately (it's only been 100 blah blah days since we've won a championship - it was getting sickening) - they are going to get their wish.

Whether or not you wanted Kyrie to be the long-term PG of this team is irrelevant to if we should have kept him - we absolutely should have. And if we had kept him, I am confident AD would be on this roster right now and we would be legit contenders next year.

It is difficult having to come to terms with taking a step back when we were seemingly so close. Like, I'll always remember where I was when I first heard of the AD trade. It was that monumental to this current Cs run. Along with [obviously] Hayward's injury and Kyrie leaving (also both related).

Re: Duality of Celtics Fandom
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2019, 08:53:54 PM »

Offline Sketch5

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We had a “star” last year and lots of “talent” and couldn’t win 50 games.

Chemistry is underrated here.

Davis over-rated here.  Listen to Pels podcast. Excels on his athleticism that masks his low BBIQ.

Let’s look forward to the draft and/or trades and player development.

It’s the journey not the destination.


I agree with you and I've argued the same thing.

But there's also part of me that's impatient and wants to feel confident that the journey has a destination that's not super far off.


Kenny Smith talked about how the league was better when he played because teams weren't trying to microwave a championship. But everyone was slow cooking their teams, so they new who was coming in for the most part every season and then they would just add this and that too the main ingredients. IT was a very good take, and thats why he felt Irving didn't fit well because Boston tried to microwave it.

I think this is why your hearing about them building around Brow and Tatum, but it doesn't mean we wont have any seasoned spices to help with the cooking process. They'll just be the right spices that blend with the main ingredients well.

Re: Duality of Celtics Fandom
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2019, 08:54:56 PM »

Offline PAOBoston

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The Nets trade was the signal to rebuild. Somewhere at the same time, the Cs really overachieved (Due to Stevens and trades like IT) to the point where maybe management thought they can start to compete and rebuild using the Nets picks at the same time. Maybe that duality in hindsight is what doomed this process. I think it was a learning experience for management as competing personalities for players in different stages of their careers wasn’t maybe factored in as much as they should have.

The Cs are now back to where they should have been in reality 4 years ago: rebuilding with a young roster. At this point, I don’t think they can skip steps like they did the past few years. They need to figure out what they have in Tatum/Brown. Only other big contracts are Horford (who’s style of play imo isn’t a hindrance to the rebuild) and Hayward (who I have no idea what to do with other than hope  he regains something close to his former form again). It’s going to be. Multi year process at this point as I don’t think there is an easy fix for this anymore.

Re: Duality of Celtics Fandom
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2019, 09:03:57 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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We had a “star” last year and lots of “talent” and couldn’t win 50 games.

Chemistry is underrated here.

Davis over-rated here.  Listen to Pels podcast. Excels on his athleticism that masks his low BBIQ.

Let’s look forward to the draft and/or trades and player development.

It’s the journey not the destination.


I agree with you and I've argued the same thing.

But there's also part of me that's impatient and wants to feel confident that the journey has a destination that's not super far off.


Kenny Smith talked about how the league was better when he played because teams weren't trying to microwave a championship. But everyone was slow cooking their teams, so they new who was coming in for the most part every season and then they would just add this and that too the main ingredients. IT was a very good take, and thats why he felt Irving didn't fit well because Boston tried to microwave it.

I think this is why your hearing about them building around Brow and Tatum, but it doesn't mean we wont have any seasoned spices to help with the cooking process. They'll just be the right spices that blend with the main ingredients well.

The NBA also had longer player contracts with no max salaries and less annual cap growth.  Few teams ever had substantial cap space to sign away a star.  This limited player movement.  The owners got what they asked for.  And the fans are paying the price.

The odds of the Celtics next title coming without bringing in a star that wasn't drafted here is much lower than with one.

Re: Duality of Celtics Fandom
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2019, 09:09:04 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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The Nets trade was the signal to rebuild. Somewhere at the same time, the Cs really overachieved (Due to Stevens and trades like IT) to the point where maybe management thought they can start to compete and rebuild using the Nets picks at the same time. Maybe that duality in hindsight is what doomed this process. I think it was a learning experience for management as competing personalities for players in different stages of their careers wasn’t maybe factored in as much as they should have.

The Cs are now back to where they should have been in reality 4 years ago: rebuilding with a young roster. At this point, I don’t think they can skip steps like they did the past few years. They need to figure out what they have in Tatum/Brown. Only other big contracts are Horford (who’s style of play imo isn’t a hindrance to the rebuild) and Hayward (who I have no idea what to do with other than hope  he regains something close to his former form again). It’s going to be. Multi year process at this point as I don’t think there is an easy fix for this anymore.


I think you make a really good point.

The way things have gone the last couple of years is a painful but valuable lesson in tbe dangers of trying to have your cake and eat it too, failing to pick a specific lane.


That is a positive of all this. The Celts have now been forced to pick a lane. The direction is clear. It does mean a slow build instead of a quick one.  I'm still concerned because I worry that a slow organic build is not ainges style or strength.


But we know the way forward. It's not clear at all if it's likely to lead to the Celts being a contender.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Duality of Celtics Fandom
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2019, 09:20:11 PM »

Offline Kuberski33

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I go back to 1970 with this team. The NBA has changed a lot and right now it's a league controlled by star players and their agents. The commissioner has no interest in changing that.  Whether owners want to change that, we'll have to see, but they're stuck with the current collective bargaining agreement till at least the end of 2022-23 season so nothing changes for at least the next few seasons.

The sport itself is exciting to watch but the player/agent control sucks for the fans - if the reason they're fans is to support one team.  Kyrie Irving has as much say in whether the team contends next season as Danny Ainge or Wyc Grousbeck. 

Personally I think it stinks but I've also given up following the Celtics and expecting them to contend for titles. I watch because I like the skills of the players, can enjoy an individual game hoping of course that they win, but I do like following the nuances of the game, watching players develop, second guessing coaches etc. But if the team has no chance at a title - which may be the case next season - I just have to temper my expectations. 

I hate this current system with the stars calling the shots. It's great for them, their brands etc - doesn't mean I have to like it or economically support it. People who spend hundreds of dollars a ticket to watch this type of product - I just don't get it.  But to each their own.

But I do find the reactions to the current situation interesting. To all those jumping on the 'kids' movement - will you feel the same way if Jaylen says he wants to test the market in a year?


Re: Duality of Celtics Fandom
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2019, 10:20:34 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I go back to 1970 with this team. The NBA has changed a lot and right now it's a league controlled by star players and their agents. The commissioner has no interest in changing that.  Whether owners want to change that, we'll have to see, but they're stuck with the current collective bargaining agreement till at least the end of 2022-23 season so nothing changes for at least the next few seasons.

The sport itself is exciting to watch but the player/agent control sucks for the fans - if the reason they're fans is to support one team.  Kyrie Irving has as much say in whether the team contends next season as Danny Ainge or Wyc Grousbeck. 

Personally I think it stinks but I've also given up following the Celtics and expecting them to contend for titles. I watch because I like the skills of the players, can enjoy an individual game hoping of course that they win, but I do like following the nuances of the game, watching players develop, second guessing coaches etc. But if the team has no chance at a title - which may be the case next season - I just have to temper my expectations. 

I hate this current system with the stars calling the shots. It's great for them, their brands etc - doesn't mean I have to like it or economically support it. People who spend hundreds of dollars a ticket to watch this type of product - I just don't get it.  But to each their own.

But I do find the reactions to the current situation interesting. To all those jumping on the 'kids' movement - will you feel the same way if Jaylen says he wants to test the market in a year?

I mean, unless he hates Boston so much he's willing to take a one year qualifying offer in order to reach UFA, he's going to be under team control for a while.


When you draft a guy you get him for the first 7-8 years of his career, if you want him and you're willing to pay him when he gets to his second deal.  For most players, the second deal is the peak of their career and the time when they are most cost-effective.


I agree that this new era of players and agents running the show is annoying and frustrating.  That said, teams do still have a lot of control over players they draft.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Duality of Celtics Fandom
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2019, 10:41:46 PM »

Offline gouki88

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I've definitely found this duality within myself, particularly over the last couple of days. It's been a very strange couple of days.

Throughout the season I was on Kyrie's side, even if deep down I knew some of his actions were questionable - although not to the same degree as others here. I wanted him to be the next great Boston point guard, and lead us to rings alongside either our young guys + Hayward, or Anthony Davis (the next great Boston big) and whoever remained. Now Anthony Davis is a Laker, Kyrie has seemingly torched us for Brooklyn, the team we laughed for years, and we have nothing to show for it except one Eastern Conference Finals appearance. It hurts.

I am trying to remain positive about it all though. I look forward to watching the Jays, Hayward, Horford and Smart all play next year. I'm also looking forward to how Danny drafts, and if he makes any moves for young reclamation projects (like Mudiay, or something). I'm definitely harsh on the Jays, particularly Tatum, but it comes from knowing how good they can and likely should be. Let's hope we get to see some of that this season.

Who knows. Maybe the Jays become what T-Mac and Grant Hill should have been, with Hayward being like a little bit of Orlando Turkoglu. We'll see
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Re: Duality of Celtics Fandom
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2019, 10:55:38 PM »

Offline Somebody

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I'll admit I've exhibited this same "duality" myself over the years, at times.

As a Celtics Fan..perhaps an older one like myself - you get primed on the Celtics being the traditional team with the banners in the rafters....the string of Celtics Greats - from Bill to Cousy to Hondo to Cowens to Larry to Paul....

Was hoping the torch was going to be passed to Kyrie...now? Maybe he is moving on.

Us Old Schoolers keep forgetting this is the NEW NBA - where cool-talking, slick outfit wearing agents run the players...steer them towards the bright lights...

Where players are not so much NOW drawn by Tradition - and being a PART of something BIGGER than they are...but wanting to be BIGGER than the organization.

Come on now those of us who've been here a LONG time know we're having the hardest time with this NEW NBA...I know I am.

Call it a bit selfish at the end of the day...AD can play where he wants to. So can Kyrie. But nearly ALL of the top players have to be coddled nowadays it seems.

All except for Kawhi, maybe.

Just a short time ago we had a player that us "Traditionalists" loved



And seemingly half the board considered him EXTREMELY flawed...laughed at his Brinks Trucks comment........but a part of me wonders how it would've been if we waited on him to recover.......

Forgive my rambling.

Sports Fandom - it is RARELY rational.

I'm an avid IT fan and thoroughly enjoyed his time in Boston (also hated the Kyrie trade), yet I was born in the 21st century lol.
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Re: Duality of Celtics Fandom
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2019, 01:23:46 AM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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I don't really have any internal conflict:  a team should always be striving to win a championship.  For a team with the resources of the Celtics, one championship in 33 years, and only being a legit contender in two of those years ('08, '10) isn't really acceptable.

I want to win.  There are no more "good guys" to root for.  You know what's going to happen if Jayson Tatum becomes a top-5 player, as unlikely as that is?  He'll turn into a diva, too.  You can already see the beginnings of it.  So, if it's "winning with jerks" or never winning, I guess I'll have to deal with the jerks.

And, the idea of our team being "fun" doesn't seem all that likely to me, either.  Tatum isn't a fun player for me to watch.  Too little defense, too many long jumpers, too little passing and making smart plays.  The same goes for just about every single player not named Brown, and sometimes Hayward and Smart.

I'm pretty much with you on this, Roy. Since the glory days of the original Big 3 during my childhood, the Celtics haven't had many outstanding seasons.

And like you say, waiting for "our guys" to develop—if they even do end up developing into great players (far from guaranteed)—carries the risk of having them become prima donnas who want out, just as they're coming into their prime, like what AD just did to New Orleans.

And like you, I'm already kinda tired of Tatum's act—throwing up his arms after almost every one of his missed shots, and his insistence on keeping the least efficient shot in basketball as the cornerstone of his game.

Yes, we're likely to hang on to Tatum and Brown longer than we would've been able to hang on to Davis, but in the end, I don't think Tatum/Brown is more likely to lead Boston to a title than Irving/Davis. Furthermore, the much-ballyhooed Eastern Conference Finals run of 2018 came about in part because those guys (especially Tatum and Brown) had no pressure on them—with Hayward and Irving out, no one expected the Celtics to do anything, so the young guys could play free and easy. Now, however, everyone in the world, including those two, knows that Danny picked them over AD, picked them as the main pieces of the next phase of Celtics history, and that's a lot of pressure.

I don't know. I want to cheer for whoever's wearing Green, and give them my full support. But the cynic in me says that Tatum and Brown better be the next Pippen and Drexler, because that's essentially what many Celtics fans are saying they'll be—all-NBA types who are gonna lead Boston to multiple titles in the coming years. But honestly, I'll be surprised if the Celtics are even in the NBA Finals in the next 3 years.
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Re: Duality of Celtics Fandom
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2019, 02:11:17 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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. But honestly, I'll be surprised if the Celtics are even in the NBA Finals in the next 3 years.

I'd say the chances of that happening in the next 3 years are pretty low.


Even if Tatum and Brown turn into All-Stars it's going to take a few years to upgrade what's around them.
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Re: Duality of Celtics Fandom
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2019, 02:13:25 AM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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The difficulty with basketball is there are so few players who decide the outcome. Even more so in the current era. So having one of those guys even if they aren't the most likeable is important.

Given that Kyrie alone isn't that guy I'm not sure this is much of a debate. If we were talking about Durant then suck it up and live him!

Also in any sport its always more satisfying when you're emotionally invested in a team and they win. Even if we have some guys I don't like on the team, as long as I can in eat in a Tatum or a Smart then I'm happy

Re: Duality of Celtics Fandom
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2019, 03:37:08 AM »

Offline SparzWizard

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. But honestly, I'll be surprised if the Celtics are even in the NBA Finals in the next 3 years.

I'd say the chances of that happening in the next 3 years are pretty low.


Even if Tatum and Brown turn into All-Stars it's going to take a few years to upgrade what's around them.

I don't think the Celtics are gonna be in the finals for another 8 years with how things have been going. It's just tough if you have one team representing the finals for 4-5 straight times- indicating their clear dominance in the league.


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