Big Man Options

[saltlover]

#91 from Coon's Salary Cap FAQ

For example, if a player on the last year of his rookie scale contract earns $5 million in 2018-19, and his contract is extended for four seasons starting at $10 million, with 5% raises, then his salary in each season will be:

Season   Salary
2018-19   $5,000,000
2019-20   $10,000,000
2020-21   $10,500,000
2021-22   $11,000,000
2022-23   $11,500,000
If this player is traded during the 2018-19 season, then his outgoing salary from the sending team's perspective is his actual salary -- $5 million. But the player's incoming salary from the receiving team's perspective is $9.6 million -- the average of all five seasons. Such a player would be very difficult to trade -- a legal trade can only be accomplished if both teams add additional salary to the transaction, or if they include a third team that is able to absorb excess salary.

I already quoted from Coon, question 101 about when players can not be traded. These override the Poison Pill Provision. A trade with a PPP can only take place after waiting the 6 months.

If Brown signed his extension in early July then in January he could have been traded using Poison Pill Provision rules, but he signed his extension in October which means he can't be traded until after the trade deadline or until the Celtics season ends. If the C's don't make the playoffs, then between mid April(season's end) and July 1st, Brown could be traded using PPP rules.

The ESPN trade machine will tell you if the player can't be traded or when the player can be traded.

Right now you can trade Jaylen or Sabonis in the ESPN trade machine.
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yxwaumad

You have to understand that ESPN and RealGM are in the business of sports.
They do that for a living.
So in this case I would prefer to believe the professionals.

Your own citation for how Jaylen’s trade would work means that his incoming salary to another team would be counted as $22.6 million incoming salary, correct?  4 years at $107 million (this excludes his unlikely bonuses but includes his likely bonuses, per other trade rules) averaged with the $6.5 million he’s making this year, for a total of 5 years, $113.5 million, or roughly $22.6 million.  Do you agree with that?

[saltlover]

#91 from Coon's Salary Cap FAQ

For example, if a player on the last year of his rookie scale contract earns $5 million in 2018-19, and his contract is extended for four seasons starting at $10 million, with 5% raises, then his salary in each season will be:

Season   Salary
2018-19   $5,000,000
2019-20   $10,000,000
2020-21   $10,500,000
2021-22   $11,000,000
2022-23   $11,500,000
If this player is traded during the 2018-19 season, then his outgoing salary from the sending team's perspective is his actual salary -- $5 million. But the player's incoming salary from the receiving team's perspective is $9.6 million -- the average of all five seasons. Such a player would be very difficult to trade -- a legal trade can only be accomplished if both teams add additional salary to the transaction, or if they include a third team that is able to absorb excess salary.

You understand that what you posted doesn’t talk about when a player can be traded, right?  It only talks about how to match salaries in the event a player who signed a rookie extension is traded.  So, for example, Jamal Murray signed his extension in July, and could thus be traded in January, 6 months later.  If that happened, the rules you quote would apply to how his salary would be counted.

Those rules would apply to Jaylen, too, if he were traded in June, after the season is over.  You’re not wrong about how the salary calculation is performed (I cited those rules myself when I explained this to you the first time).  But you are wrong about when he can be traded.  I quoted the CBA for you.  Please just listen and stop posting Jaylen trades until the offseason.

I'm not making any Jaylen trade proposals right now!

I already stated in this thread that I don't believe Jaylen's going anywhere after he got that big extension.

It's very clear that the Celts want him long term.

But what I'm saying is I can't believe you or any other poster here because I prefer to believe ESPN and RealGM regarding the matter of PPPs.

ESPN and RealGM would lose credibility if they don't get it right.

So you can't blame me if I don't believe your interpretation of the cap rules.

ESPN and RealGM are wrong. Believe their mistakes all you want, they are wrong. What I attached directly from the NBA.com website proves that.

What you attached is extend and trade.

It says nothing about overriding the PPP.

You really should like read the article. The article is about all rules regarding the CBA.

Under extend and trades it gives you the rules of extend and trades. Max length, max money, max raises.

It then says:

If a player signs a contract extension for a longer period, a higher amount, or higher annual increases than would be permitted for an extension-and-trade, then the team is prohibited from trading the player for a period of six months following the date of the extension.

See the bolded. In other words it is describing non-extend and trade extensions(like Brown's). So those extensions can not be traded for 6 months.

Here's a list of players that can't be traded this season.

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2019/10/special-trade-eligibility-dates-for-201920.html?fbclid=IwAR0GYPDcGF8Zh9laoIT9-Wk4tykM37c6YtFVd58WvOMt_Eexj9T74KicYOc

The following players fit that bill and can’t be traded during the 2019/20 season:

Eric Gordon (Rockets)
Bradley Beal (Wizards)
Joe Ingles (Jazz)
Cedi Osman (Cavaliers)
Damian Lillard (Trail Blazers)

So far those are the only players that cannot be traded on or before the trade deadline.

Brown and Sabonis are not on that list.

OMG that article is so bad.  Literally the sentence before you quoted, it says that:

Finally, any player who signs a designated veteran extension isn’t trade-eligible for a full year.

The following players fit that bill and can’t be traded during the 2019/20 season:

The only one of those players who signed the designated veteran extension, also known as the Supermax, is Lillard.  The thought of Cedi Osman getting a supermax is hilarious.

[Fierce1]

#91 from Coon's Salary Cap FAQ

For example, if a player on the last year of his rookie scale contract earns $5 million in 2018-19, and his contract is extended for four seasons starting at $10 million, with 5% raises, then his salary in each season will be:

Season   Salary
2018-19   $5,000,000
2019-20   $10,000,000
2020-21   $10,500,000
2021-22   $11,000,000
2022-23   $11,500,000
If this player is traded during the 2018-19 season, then his outgoing salary from the sending team's perspective is his actual salary -- $5 million. But the player's incoming salary from the receiving team's perspective is $9.6 million -- the average of all five seasons. Such a player would be very difficult to trade -- a legal trade can only be accomplished if both teams add additional salary to the transaction, or if they include a third team that is able to absorb excess salary.

I already quoted from Coon, question 101 about when players can not be traded. These override the Poison Pill Provision. A trade with a PPP can only take place after waiting the 6 months.

If Brown signed his extension in early July then in January he could have been traded using Poison Pill Provision rules, but he signed his extension in October which means he can't be traded until after the trade deadline or until the Celtics season ends. If the C's don't make the playoffs, then between mid April(season's end) and July 1st, Brown could be traded using PPP rules.

The ESPN trade machine will tell you if the player can't be traded or when the player can be traded.

Right now you can trade Jaylen or Sabonis in the ESPN trade machine.
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yxwaumad

You have to understand that ESPN and RealGM are in the business of sports.
They do that for a living.
So in this case I would prefer to believe the professionals.

Your own citation for how Jaylen’s trade would work means that his incoming salary to another team would be counted as $22.6 million incoming salary, correct?  4 years at $107 million (this excludes his unlikely bonuses but includes his likely bonuses, per other trade rules) averaged with the $6.5 million he’s making this year, for a total of 5 years, $113.5 million, or roughly $22.6 million.  Do you agree with that?

I'm just pointing out that Brown can still be traded.

Here's why the PPP doesn't fall under the 6-month rule, right now Brown is still on the last year of his contract.

Brown's new contract will take effect July 1, 2020.
So technically, Brown is an expiring contract.
It just so happens that Brown and the Celts already agreed on a contract extension for July 1, 2020.

Look at the list of players that can't be traded this season.

Here:
https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2019/10/special-trade-eligibility-dates-for-201920.html?fbclid=IwAR0GYPDcGF8Zh9laoIT9-Wk4tykM37c6YtFVd58WvOMt_Eexj9T74KicYOc

Jaylen or Sabonis is not on that list.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/11/7/20954046/boston-celtics-marcus-smart-defense-frontcourt

Before this thread was taken over with debate cap rules, earlier this morning I made this point before reading this article.

[Fierce1]

#91 from Coon's Salary Cap FAQ

For example, if a player on the last year of his rookie scale contract earns $5 million in 2018-19, and his contract is extended for four seasons starting at $10 million, with 5% raises, then his salary in each season will be:

Season   Salary
2018-19   $5,000,000
2019-20   $10,000,000
2020-21   $10,500,000
2021-22   $11,000,000
2022-23   $11,500,000
If this player is traded during the 2018-19 season, then his outgoing salary from the sending team's perspective is his actual salary -- $5 million. But the player's incoming salary from the receiving team's perspective is $9.6 million -- the average of all five seasons. Such a player would be very difficult to trade -- a legal trade can only be accomplished if both teams add additional salary to the transaction, or if they include a third team that is able to absorb excess salary.

You understand that what you posted doesn’t talk about when a player can be traded, right?  It only talks about how to match salaries in the event a player who signed a rookie extension is traded.  So, for example, Jamal Murray signed his extension in July, and could thus be traded in January, 6 months later.  If that happened, the rules you quote would apply to how his salary would be counted.

Those rules would apply to Jaylen, too, if he were traded in June, after the season is over.  You’re not wrong about how the salary calculation is performed (I cited those rules myself when I explained this to you the first time).  But you are wrong about when he can be traded.  I quoted the CBA for you.  Please just listen and stop posting Jaylen trades until the offseason.

I'm not making any Jaylen trade proposals right now!

I already stated in this thread that I don't believe Jaylen's going anywhere after he got that big extension.

It's very clear that the Celts want him long term.

But what I'm saying is I can't believe you or any other poster here because I prefer to believe ESPN and RealGM regarding the matter of PPPs.

ESPN and RealGM would lose credibility if they don't get it right.

So you can't blame me if I don't believe your interpretation of the cap rules.

ESPN and RealGM are wrong. Believe their mistakes all you want, they are wrong. What I attached directly from the NBA.com website proves that.

What you attached is extend and trade.

It says nothing about overriding the PPP.

You really should like read the article. The article is about all rules regarding the CBA.

Under extend and trades it gives you the rules of extend and trades. Max length, max money, max raises.

It then says:

If a player signs a contract extension for a longer period, a higher amount, or higher annual increases than would be permitted for an extension-and-trade, then the team is prohibited from trading the player for a period of six months following the date of the extension.

See the bolded. In other words it is describing non-extend and trade extensions(like Brown's). So those extensions can not be traded for 6 months.

Here's a list of players that can't be traded this season.

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2019/10/special-trade-eligibility-dates-for-201920.html?fbclid=IwAR0GYPDcGF8Zh9laoIT9-Wk4tykM37c6YtFVd58WvOMt_Eexj9T74KicYOc

The following players fit that bill and can’t be traded during the 2019/20 season:

Eric Gordon (Rockets)
Bradley Beal (Wizards)
Joe Ingles (Jazz)
Cedi Osman (Cavaliers)
Damian Lillard (Trail Blazers)

So far those are the only players that cannot be traded on or before the trade deadline.

Brown and Sabonis are not on that list.

OMG that article is so bad.  Literally the sentence before you quoted, it says that:

Finally, any player who signs a designated veteran extension isn’t trade-eligible for a full year.

The following players fit that bill and can’t be traded during the 2019/20 season:

The only one of those players who signed the designated veteran extension, also known as the Supermax, is Lillard.  The thought of Cedi Osman getting a supermax is hilarious.

Like I said, there's more proof you can find on the net that says Brown or Sabonis can still be traded this season.

You can't blame me if prefer to believe what I find on other websites.

Come on, they're professionals, that's what they do for a living.

We're just Celtic fans here who enjoy rooting for the Celts.

[Fierce1]

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/11/7/20954046/boston-celtics-marcus-smart-defense-frontcourt

Before this thread was taken over with debate cap rules, earlier this morning I made this point before reading this article.

No doubt Smart can defend bigs.

The problem is in the playoffs when Smart has to prevent Embiid and the Sixers from beating the Celts 4 times.

In the regular season, no doubt Smart can defend different bigs on different nights.
But in a 7-game series where you face the same opponent, that's very difficult to do, even for Marcus Smart.

[Vox_Populi]

https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7244847

realgm trade checker also allows Brown to be traded.

RealGM is wrong, quite simply.  I’ve explained this rule to you before, linked to the authority that is Larry Koon, and you ignored it.  Brown can’t be traded for 6 months after signing his extension, which takes us past the trade deadline and even the end of the regular season.

Here’s the language directly from the CBA (emphasis added):

n the event a player enters into an Extension pursuant to Section 7(a) above (other than a Designated Veteran Player Extension governed by Section (f)(ii) below) that covers four (4) or more Seasons and/or provides for Salary and Unlikely Bonuses or annual increases in the player’s Salary and Unlikely Bonuses in excess of the amounts permissible in connection with Extensions entered in connection with an agreement to trade the Contract pursuant to Section 8(e)(2) above, the player may not be traded before six (6) months following the date on which such Extension was signed.

Nate Duncan and Danny LeRoux mentioned this in a recent pod too.

[saltlover]

#91 from Coon's Salary Cap FAQ

For example, if a player on the last year of his rookie scale contract earns $5 million in 2018-19, and his contract is extended for four seasons starting at $10 million, with 5% raises, then his salary in each season will be:

Season   Salary
2018-19   $5,000,000
2019-20   $10,000,000
2020-21   $10,500,000
2021-22   $11,000,000
2022-23   $11,500,000
If this player is traded during the 2018-19 season, then his outgoing salary from the sending team's perspective is his actual salary -- $5 million. But the player's incoming salary from the receiving team's perspective is $9.6 million -- the average of all five seasons. Such a player would be very difficult to trade -- a legal trade can only be accomplished if both teams add additional salary to the transaction, or if they include a third team that is able to absorb excess salary.

I already quoted from Coon, question 101 about when players can not be traded. These override the Poison Pill Provision. A trade with a PPP can only take place after waiting the 6 months.

If Brown signed his extension in early July then in January he could have been traded using Poison Pill Provision rules, but he signed his extension in October which means he can't be traded until after the trade deadline or until the Celtics season ends. If the C's don't make the playoffs, then between mid April(season's end) and July 1st, Brown could be traded using PPP rules.

The ESPN trade machine will tell you if the player can't be traded or when the player can be traded.

Right now you can trade Jaylen or Sabonis in the ESPN trade machine.
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yxwaumad

You have to understand that ESPN and RealGM are in the business of sports.
They do that for a living.
So in this case I would prefer to believe the professionals.

Your own citation for how Jaylen’s trade would work means that his incoming salary to another team would be counted as $22.6 million incoming salary, correct?  4 years at $107 million (this excludes his unlikely bonuses but includes his likely bonuses, per other trade rules) averaged with the $6.5 million he’s making this year, for a total of 5 years, $113.5 million, or roughly $22.6 million.  Do you agree with that?

I'm just pointing out that Brown can still be traded.

Here's why the PPP doesn't fall under the 6-month rule, right now Brown is still on the last year of his contract.

Brown's new contract will take effect July 1, 2020.
So technically, Brown is an expiring contract.
It just so happens that Brown and the Celts already agreed on a contract extension for July 1, 2020.

Look at the list of players that can't be traded this season.

Here:
https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2019/10/special-trade-eligibility-dates-for-201920.html?fbclid=IwAR0GYPDcGF8Zh9laoIT9-Wk4tykM37c6YtFVd58WvOMt_Eexj9T74KicYOc

Jaylen or Sabonis is not on that list.

Okay, we’re done.  You cite a rule about poison pill, which is only about how to count salary for a player who has signed an extension with a large raise before it goes into effect, and then turn around and deny that it actually applies to Jaylen, who has signed such an extension.  Please stop posting about trades.  You both have no idea what you’re talking about, and no desire to learn.  It’s one thing to be wrong, it’s another to be consistently wrong, but it’s another completely to have people who’ve paid attention to this stuff for years, citing independent experts to explain to you why you’re wrong, only for you to completely put your fingers in your ears saying “Nyah Nyah Nyah I cant hear you.”

Please, someone, bring back the ignore feature.  It is rarely needed, but we have found an instance.

[Fierce1]

I'm sorry guys, but here's more proof that Jaylen, Sabonis, Hield, and Jamal Murry can still be traded this season.

Here:
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/10/21/20925905/rookie-extensions-jaylen-brown-buddy-hield

If Turner and Sabonis can’t make it work, the Pacers still have options. This deal is no handcuff. The terms are favorable enough that, should the pieces not fit the puzzle, Indy can turn to the trade market and pick the big it wants to keep.

[Fierce1]

#91 from Coon's Salary Cap FAQ

For example, if a player on the last year of his rookie scale contract earns $5 million in 2018-19, and his contract is extended for four seasons starting at $10 million, with 5% raises, then his salary in each season will be:

Season   Salary
2018-19   $5,000,000
2019-20   $10,000,000
2020-21   $10,500,000
2021-22   $11,000,000
2022-23   $11,500,000
If this player is traded during the 2018-19 season, then his outgoing salary from the sending team's perspective is his actual salary -- $5 million. But the player's incoming salary from the receiving team's perspective is $9.6 million -- the average of all five seasons. Such a player would be very difficult to trade -- a legal trade can only be accomplished if both teams add additional salary to the transaction, or if they include a third team that is able to absorb excess salary.

I already quoted from Coon, question 101 about when players can not be traded. These override the Poison Pill Provision. A trade with a PPP can only take place after waiting the 6 months.

If Brown signed his extension in early July then in January he could have been traded using Poison Pill Provision rules, but he signed his extension in October which means he can't be traded until after the trade deadline or until the Celtics season ends. If the C's don't make the playoffs, then between mid April(season's end) and July 1st, Brown could be traded using PPP rules.

The ESPN trade machine will tell you if the player can't be traded or when the player can be traded.

Right now you can trade Jaylen or Sabonis in the ESPN trade machine.
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yxwaumad

You have to understand that ESPN and RealGM are in the business of sports.
They do that for a living.
So in this case I would prefer to believe the professionals.

Your own citation for how Jaylen’s trade would work means that his incoming salary to another team would be counted as $22.6 million incoming salary, correct?  4 years at $107 million (this excludes his unlikely bonuses but includes his likely bonuses, per other trade rules) averaged with the $6.5 million he’s making this year, for a total of 5 years, $113.5 million, or roughly $22.6 million.  Do you agree with that?

I'm just pointing out that Brown can still be traded.

Here's why the PPP doesn't fall under the 6-month rule, right now Brown is still on the last year of his contract.

Brown's new contract will take effect July 1, 2020.
So technically, Brown is an expiring contract.
It just so happens that Brown and the Celts already agreed on a contract extension for July 1, 2020.

Look at the list of players that can't be traded this season.

Here:
https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2019/10/special-trade-eligibility-dates-for-201920.html?fbclid=IwAR0GYPDcGF8Zh9laoIT9-Wk4tykM37c6YtFVd58WvOMt_Eexj9T74KicYOc

Jaylen or Sabonis is not on that list.

Okay, we’re done.  You cite a rule about poison pill, which is only about how to count salary for a player who has signed an extension with a large raise before it goes into effect, and then turn around and deny that it actually applies to Jaylen, who has signed such an extension.  Please stop posting about trades.  You both have no idea what you’re talking about, and no desire to learn.  It’s one thing to be wrong, it’s another to be consistently wrong, but it’s another completely to have people who’ve paid attention to this stuff for years, citing independent experts to explain to you why you’re wrong, only for you to completely put your fingers in your ears saying “Nyah Nyah Nyah I cant hear you.”

Please, someone, bring back the ignore feature.  It is rarely needed, but we have found an instance.

I was right about Jaylen not being a max player.

Ainge didn't give Jaylen the max, right?

You're asking me to be the student and you the teacher.
That's not how it works.

What you are trying to make me believe is your interpretation of the cap rules.
I'm showing you guys proof that your interpretation is not correct.
Multiple websites have shown that players who are under the PPP can still be traded this season.

[RockinRyA]

I'm sorry guys, but here's more proof that Jaylen, Sabonis, Hield, and Jamal Murry can still be traded this season.

Here:
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/10/21/20925905/rookie-extensions-jaylen-brown-buddy-hield

If Turner and Sabonis can’t make it work, the Pacers still have options. This deal is no handcuff. The terms are favorable enough that, should the pieces not fit the puzzle, Indy can turn to the trade market and pick the big it wants to keep.

That statement doesnt state when the player can be moved.

I agree with saltlover, you keep on ignoring the explanation and interpretation of people who have been studying the CBA for years. Do you even know who Larry Coon is? Its pretty dumb to trust espn over him so something tells me you don't know who he is.

[Fierce1]

I'm sorry guys, but here's more proof that Jaylen, Sabonis, Hield, and Jamal Murry can still be traded this season.

Here:
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/10/21/20925905/rookie-extensions-jaylen-brown-buddy-hield

If Turner and Sabonis can’t make it work, the Pacers still have options. This deal is no handcuff. The terms are favorable enough that, should the pieces not fit the puzzle, Indy can turn to the trade market and pick the big it wants to keep.

That statement doesnt state when the player can be moved.

I agree with saltlover, you keep on ignoring the explanation and interpretation of people who have been studying the CBA for years. Do you even know who Larry Coon is? Its pretty dumb to trust espn over him so something tells me you don't know who he is.

Like I said, just give proof or evidence.

I tell you what, here's an article that will solve this issue once and for all.

Andrew Wiggins also got an extension back in 2017.

Below is the article and it clearly states that players falling under the PPP can be traded and does not fall under the 6-month rule.

It's a legit article.

Here:

https://www.canishoopus.com/2017/8/2/16080436/report-andrew-wiggins-contract-extension-offer-wolves-glen-taylor

However, Wiggins could receive an extension and still be traded. Veteran extensions prohibit the new signee from being traded for six months following the date of the signing but rookie scale extensions have no such provision. The newly extended Wiggins contract would be immediately tradable but it would be “poison pilled.”

[Fierce1]

Come on guys, it's clear as day.

Here:
https://www.canishoopus.com/2017/8/2/16080436/report-andrew-wiggins-contract-extension-offer-wolves-glen-taylor

However, Wiggins could receive an extension and still be traded. Veteran extensions prohibit the new signee from being traded for six months following the date of the signing but rookie scale extensions have no such provision. The newly extended Wiggins contract would be immediately tradable but it would be “poison pilled.”

[nickagneta]

Shutting down this discussion. Get back onto big man options.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Shutting down this discussion. Get back onto big man options.

Yay!!! So as I was saying, Marcus Smart ... amiright?