Author Topic: Value comparison of Jaylen and Jayson  (Read 5956 times)

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Re: Value comparison of Jaylen and Jayson
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2019, 01:47:15 AM »

Offline Ogaju

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1. Don't know. Since conventional wisdom is Tatum is more talented, I'd guess Tatum, but Ainge is capable of contrarian views.

2. Fairly sure its Tatum.

3. Jaylen. I think conventional wisdom is wrong here. Tatum is less athletic, and quickness is his most average athletic trait. He usually plays with less fire, and doesn't seem to improve as quickly.

Tatum has been with a pro trainer since age 13 and has only focused on becoming an NBA player. He came into the NBA with some advanced footwork and a better shot because he's dedicated and always been on the pro track. He hasn't really improved that much since.

Jaylen wasn't that kind of kid, and he was actually a couple of years behind Tatum in his technique development when he got here. He does love the game, though, and has dedicated himself to a solid work ethic as an adult. Since Tatum got here, Jaylen has improved more.

Most importantly, Jaylen has the athletic tools and competitiveness to become an all-NBA player. There are a few All-NBA guys that get it done without above average athleticism and particularly quickness, but it is a much easier path to just be a superior athlete first. Jaylen is a top 10 in the league freak athlete, and while he has significant holes in his game, he still manages to take over games just as often as Tatum does. He has been quite good at raising his game to challenge elite players.

Jaylen still might not get any better, but I wouldn't bet on it. When he has a bad game, it never feels like someone is all over him and he can't get the shots he wants. It just feels like he's making mistakes or missing easy shots.

I expect him to end up with the better career.

I agree with this.

Brown played well in the playoffs offering an illustration of his improvement.

Brown is a fighter, Tatum is not. It is just an observation of Brown's attitude during the on court struggle with opponents.

Brown has been given defensive assignments on pretty much all of the top players in the NBA. This is not saying that Tatum has not. He just isn't the same athlete.

Brown is more likely to attack on offense, Tatum is not...again, style.

As above here, Brown has physical talents not possessed by Tatum.

By the 5th game against the Bucks, numerous posters were concerned that N.O. would require Brown in the AD trade not Tatum.

Tatum is fantastic player and may very well have a higher ceiling than Brown. He is still really young.

Brown is more my style of player so, I lean towards him in the debate.
One slowly jogging back on D and got pushed by his own teammates to tell him play harder, one dunked on Lebron in ECF G7 when another completely disappear

You may want to think again

It's all Tatum and it's not close

what has Tatum done since that dunk? Shrug.

Re: Value comparison of Jaylen and Jayson
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2019, 06:45:24 AM »

Offline playdream

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1. Don't know. Since conventional wisdom is Tatum is more talented, I'd guess Tatum, but Ainge is capable of contrarian views.

2. Fairly sure its Tatum.

3. Jaylen. I think conventional wisdom is wrong here. Tatum is less athletic, and quickness is his most average athletic trait. He usually plays with less fire, and doesn't seem to improve as quickly.

Tatum has been with a pro trainer since age 13 and has only focused on becoming an NBA player. He came into the NBA with some advanced footwork and a better shot because he's dedicated and always been on the pro track. He hasn't really improved that much since.

Jaylen wasn't that kind of kid, and he was actually a couple of years behind Tatum in his technique development when he got here. He does love the game, though, and has dedicated himself to a solid work ethic as an adult. Since Tatum got here, Jaylen has improved more.

Most importantly, Jaylen has the athletic tools and competitiveness to become an all-NBA player. There are a few All-NBA guys that get it done without above average athleticism and particularly quickness, but it is a much easier path to just be a superior athlete first. Jaylen is a top 10 in the league freak athlete, and while he has significant holes in his game, he still manages to take over games just as often as Tatum does. He has been quite good at raising his game to challenge elite players.

Jaylen still might not get any better, but I wouldn't bet on it. When he has a bad game, it never feels like someone is all over him and he can't get the shots he wants. It just feels like he's making mistakes or missing easy shots.

I expect him to end up with the better career.

I agree with this.

Brown played well in the playoffs offering an illustration of his improvement.

Brown is a fighter, Tatum is not. It is just an observation of Brown's attitude during the on court struggle with opponents.

Brown has been given defensive assignments on pretty much all of the top players in the NBA. This is not saying that Tatum has not. He just isn't the same athlete.

Brown is more likely to attack on offense, Tatum is not...again, style.

As above here, Brown has physical talents not possessed by Tatum.

By the 5th game against the Bucks, numerous posters were concerned that N.O. would require Brown in the AD trade not Tatum.

Tatum is fantastic player and may very well have a higher ceiling than Brown. He is still really young.

Brown is more my style of player so, I lean towards him in the debate.
One slowly jogging back on D and got pushed by his own teammates to tell him play harder, one dunked on Lebron in ECF G7 when another completely disappear

You may want to think again

It's all Tatum and it's not close

what has Tatum done since that dunk? Shrug.
I don't know, maybe a go ahead 3? https://youtu.be/ob009GlHYI8?t=153

I know what Brown has done since that epic choking job though
: travel around world in off-season, play baseball

Re: Value comparison of Jaylen and Jayson
« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2019, 07:58:48 AM »

Offline pablohoney

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Jayson Tatum (age 20) career playoff stats: 6-13, 46%, 17 ppg, 5 rpg, 2.5 apg
Kawhi Leonard (age 28) : 7-13, 50%, 19 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 2.4 apg
Paul George (age 29): 6-15, 42%, 20 ppg, 7 rpg, 4 apg

So how good were Kawhi and PG in playoffs at age 20? They weren’t in them..... How about at age 21?
Kawhi: 8.6 ppg, 50%, 6 rpg, 0.6 apg
PG: 6ppg, 30%, 5 rpg, 1 apg


Browns playoff numbers at age 21?

Brown: 7-15, 47%, 18 ppg, 5 rpg, 1.4 apg. (39% 3 pt%)

We have 2 stars in the making.  The difference is that in Brown we see holes in his game (weak handle, poor vision) and in Tatum we can see elite possibilities with 45% 3 pt shot potential and Kobe-esque isolation ability.  That said, they are both well ahead of superstars at their positions currently in their primes.

Re: Value comparison of Jaylen and Jayson
« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2019, 10:55:34 AM »

Offline bellerephon

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Jayson Tatum (age 20) career playoff stats: 6-13, 46%, 17 ppg, 5 rpg, 2.5 apg
Kawhi Leonard (age 28) : 7-13, 50%, 19 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 2.4 apg
Paul George (age 29): 6-15, 42%, 20 ppg, 7 rpg, 4 apg

So how good were Kawhi and PG in playoffs at age 20? They weren’t in them..... How about at age 21?
Kawhi: 8.6 ppg, 50%, 6 rpg, 0.6 apg
PG: 6ppg, 30%, 5 rpg, 1 apg


Browns playoff numbers at age 21?

Brown: 7-15, 47%, 18 ppg, 5 rpg, 1.4 apg. (39% 3 pt%)

We have 2 stars in the making.  The difference is that in Brown we see holes in his game (weak handle, poor vision) and in Tatum we can see elite possibilities with 45% 3 pt shot potential and Kobe-esque isolation ability.  That said, they are both well ahead of superstars at their positions currently in their primes.
I agree that Brown and Tatum have a lot of potential, but these sort of comparisons where we look back at current stars and how they did at a young age don't really tell us very much. There are too many variables that change things. Kawhi started out on a championship team that did not need to feature him. Some players develop sooner than others. The fact that Brown and Tatum are putting up better numbers than Kawhi did at a similar age tells us nothing. I still think they have little to no chance of being as good as he is.

Re: Value comparison of Jaylen and Jayson
« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2019, 02:06:19 PM »

Offline jambr380

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Jayson Tatum (age 20) career playoff stats: 6-13, 46%, 17 ppg, 5 rpg, 2.5 apg
Kawhi Leonard (age 28) : 7-13, 50%, 19 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 2.4 apg
Paul George (age 29): 6-15, 42%, 20 ppg, 7 rpg, 4 apg

So how good were Kawhi and PG in playoffs at age 20? They weren’t in them..... How about at age 21?
Kawhi: 8.6 ppg, 50%, 6 rpg, 0.6 apg
PG: 6ppg, 30%, 5 rpg, 1 apg


Browns playoff numbers at age 21?

Brown: 7-15, 47%, 18 ppg, 5 rpg, 1.4 apg. (39% 3 pt%)

We have 2 stars in the making.  The difference is that in Brown we see holes in his game (weak handle, poor vision) and in Tatum we can see elite possibilities with 45% 3 pt shot potential and Kobe-esque isolation ability.  That said, they are both well ahead of superstars at their positions currently in their primes.
I agree that Brown and Tatum have a lot of potential, but these sort of comparisons where we look back at current stars and how they did at a young age don't really tell us very much. There are too many variables that change things. Kawhi started out on a championship team that did not need to feature him. Some players develop sooner than others. The fact that Brown and Tatum are putting up better numbers than Kawhi did at a similar age tells us nothing. I still think they have little to no chance of being as good as he is.

I don't really think it necessarily says much either, but you make it sound like Jaylen and Tatum were being featured on tanking teams. Just like Kawhi, they have had to work their way up the ladder of a contending team (or what we thought was a contending team). While neither may have the ceiling of Kawhi, it is entirely reasonable to assume they would have put up better numbers on a bad team. Frankly, their situation is more like Kawhi's than the vast majority of other young up and coming star players.

Re: Value comparison of Jaylen and Jayson
« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2019, 03:54:45 PM »

Offline bellerephon

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Jayson Tatum (age 20) career playoff stats: 6-13, 46%, 17 ppg, 5 rpg, 2.5 apg
Kawhi Leonard (age 28) : 7-13, 50%, 19 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 2.4 apg
Paul George (age 29): 6-15, 42%, 20 ppg, 7 rpg, 4 apg

So how good were Kawhi and PG in playoffs at age 20? They weren’t in them..... How about at age 21?
Kawhi: 8.6 ppg, 50%, 6 rpg, 0.6 apg
PG: 6ppg, 30%, 5 rpg, 1 apg


Browns playoff numbers at age 21?

Brown: 7-15, 47%, 18 ppg, 5 rpg, 1.4 apg. (39% 3 pt%)

We have 2 stars in the making.  The difference is that in Brown we see holes in his game (weak handle, poor vision) and in Tatum we can see elite possibilities with 45% 3 pt shot potential and Kobe-esque isolation ability.  That said, they are both well ahead of superstars at their positions currently in their primes.
I agree that Brown and Tatum have a lot of potential, but these sort of comparisons where we look back at current stars and how they did at a young age don't really tell us very much. There are too many variables that change things. Kawhi started out on a championship team that did not need to feature him. Some players develop sooner than others. The fact that Brown and Tatum are putting up better numbers than Kawhi did at a similar age tells us nothing. I still think they have little to no chance of being as good as he is.

I don't really think it necessarily says much either, but you make it sound like Jaylen and Tatum were being featured on tanking teams. Just like Kawhi, they have had to work their way up the ladder of a contending team (or what we thought was a contending team). While neither may have the ceiling of Kawhi, it is entirely reasonable to assume they would have put up better numbers on a bad team. Frankly, their situation is more like Kawhi's than the vast majority of other young up and coming star players.
It's a fair point that Jaylen and Jason were not putting up those numbers on a bad team. Those are playoff teams and what they did is impressive. I like their potential and have high hopes for them. It just seems to me that people sometimes make these comparisons to insinuate that we can expect a similar or better career path for our young guys. It simply doesn't work that way. They look good, but still have a long way to go. I also think it is unlikely that either will reach the level of Kawhi.

Re: Value comparison of Jaylen and Jayson
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2019, 06:20:10 PM »

Offline GreenlyGreeny

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Kawhi is currently the best basketball player on the planet. When he started, Duncan, Parker and Manu were still dominant. I would bet everything that I own that Brown will never be the best basketball player in the world, or even on par with what Kawhi is today. I do think there’s a chance of him becoming a top 15-20 player in the league, but he better show he’s all-star caliber this season or even that is in doubt for me.

That said, I can see Jayson becoming one of the top 3-5 players in the world as the “next Durant,” so to speak.

Either Jaylen will become Jayson’s sidekick, Jayson’s Pippen, or Brown needs to be shipped so we can find a great player to pair with Kemba and Jayson before it’s too late.

Re: Value comparison of Jaylen and Jayson
« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2019, 07:25:15 PM »

Offline jambr380

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I don't really think it necessarily says much either, but you make it sound like Jaylen and Tatum were being featured on tanking teams. Just like Kawhi, they have had to work their way up the ladder of a contending team (or what we thought was a contending team). While neither may have the ceiling of Kawhi, it is entirely reasonable to assume they would have put up better numbers on a bad team. Frankly, their situation is more like Kawhi's than the vast majority of other young up and coming star players.
It's a fair point that Jaylen and Jason were not putting up those numbers on a bad team. Those are playoff teams and what they did is impressive. I like their potential and have high hopes for them. It just seems to me that people sometimes make these comparisons to insinuate that we can expect a similar or better career path for our young guys. It simply doesn't work that way. They look good, but still have a long way to go. I also think it is unlikely that either will reach the level of Kawhi.

Oh, I generally agree. I think it represents a starting point for conversations on player comparison, but it is in no way a barometer for how players will perform in the future. I do feel that because of our team's increased expectations, Jaylen and Tatum have put up more meaningful numbers than say a MCW or Lavine in their early seasons; but there is still a ways to go before we declare them future top 5 players in the game.

Re: Value comparison of Jaylen and Jayson
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2019, 12:39:40 AM »

Offline Somebody

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Couldn't believe that people are still saying that Brown and Rozier choked in the 2018 playoffs-the rest of the team let them down in game 6 when they could've nipped it in the bud. But I guess people can only see the last shiny game because "HURR DURR IT'S THE ONLY ONE THAT COUNTS", when the game prior to that would've ended the series had our "choke artist" Tatum didn't screw up (I don't think Tatum is a choke artist btw, hence the quotation marks). The above take is just as silly as the "HURR DURR 30 MILLION SIXTH MAN SMH" argument.
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Re: Value comparison of Jaylen and Jayson
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2019, 03:48:49 AM »

Offline playdream

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Couldn't believe that people are still saying that Brown and Rozier choked in the 2018 playoffs-the rest of the team let them down in game 6 when they could've nipped it in the bud. But I guess people can only see the last shiny game because "HURR DURR IT'S THE ONLY ONE THAT COUNTS", when the game prior to that would've ended the series had our "choke artist" Tatum didn't screw up (I don't think Tatum is a choke artist btw, hence the quotation marks). The above take is just as silly as the "HURR DURR 30 MILLION SIXTH MAN SMH" argument.
It's a pro league , winner takes all and nobody will remember the 2nd, so yeah G7(deciding game) is much much more important than others, you can argue all you want but it's just what it is

Re: Value comparison of Jaylen and Jayson
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2019, 04:16:03 AM »

Offline Somebody

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Couldn't believe that people are still saying that Brown and Rozier choked in the 2018 playoffs-the rest of the team let them down in game 6 when they could've nipped it in the bud. But I guess people can only see the last shiny game because "HURR DURR IT'S THE ONLY ONE THAT COUNTS", when the game prior to that would've ended the series had our "choke artist" Tatum didn't screw up (I don't think Tatum is a choke artist btw, hence the quotation marks). The above take is just as silly as the "HURR DURR 30 MILLION SIXTH MAN SMH" argument.
It's a pro league , winner takes all and nobody will remember the 2nd, so yeah G7(deciding game) is much much more important than others, you can argue all you want but it's just what it is
A pro league will also have teams striving to be the most efficient they can, and in that series it means closing it out in 6. Game 6 was just as important as game 7 to the Celtics as winning either of those would mean a finals berth, especially when the other team has an all time great who takes his game to another level in winner take all games (at least in recent years). But harp on the two players who didn't play like Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. in the game that could've gotten us into the finals because the others showed up in game 7 when they could've nipped it in the bud in 6.
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Re: Value comparison of Jaylen and Jayson
« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2019, 06:11:20 AM »

Offline playdream

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Couldn't believe that people are still saying that Brown and Rozier choked in the 2018 playoffs-the rest of the team let them down in game 6 when they could've nipped it in the bud. But I guess people can only see the last shiny game because "HURR DURR IT'S THE ONLY ONE THAT COUNTS", when the game prior to that would've ended the series had our "choke artist" Tatum didn't screw up (I don't think Tatum is a choke artist btw, hence the quotation marks). The above take is just as silly as the "HURR DURR 30 MILLION SIXTH MAN SMH" argument.
It's a pro league , winner takes all and nobody will remember the 2nd, so yeah G7(deciding game) is much much more important than others, you can argue all you want but it's just what it is
A pro league will also have teams striving to be the most efficient they can, and in that series it means closing it out in 6. Game 6 was just as important as game 7 to the Celtics as winning either of those would mean a finals berth, especially when the other team has an all time great who takes his game to another level in winner take all games (at least in recent years). But harp on the two players who didn't play like **** in the game that could've gotten us into the finals because the others showed up in game 7 when they could've nipped it in the bud in 6.
Brown choked at the end and Tatum balled out on Lebron

Like i said, argue all you want but it's just what it is

Re: Value comparison of Jaylen and Jayson
« Reply #42 on: July 21, 2019, 06:23:59 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
Brown choked at the end and Tatum balled out on Lebron

Like i said, argue all you want but it's just what it is

When a lot of people disagree with you it could mean you're wrong.  I have already proven that you make comments that statistically incorrect.

Your not winning these arguments, your just showing your hate of Brown clouds you're thought process.

Re: Value comparison of Jaylen and Jayson
« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2019, 06:30:25 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Couldn't believe that people are still saying that Brown and Rozier choked in the 2018 playoffs-the rest of the team let them down in game 6 when they could've nipped it in the bud. But I guess people can only see the last shiny game because "HURR DURR IT'S THE ONLY ONE THAT COUNTS", when the game prior to that would've ended the series had our "choke artist" Tatum didn't screw up (I don't think Tatum is a choke artist btw, hence the quotation marks). The above take is just as silly as the "HURR DURR 30 MILLION SIXTH MAN SMH" argument.
It's a pro league , winner takes all and nobody will remember the 2nd, so yeah G7(deciding game) is much much more important than others, you can argue all you want but it's just what it is
A pro league will also have teams striving to be the most efficient they can, and in that series it means closing it out in 6. Game 6 was just as important as game 7 to the Celtics as winning either of those would mean a finals berth, especially when the other team has an all time great who takes his game to another level in winner take all games (at least in recent years). But harp on the two players who didn't play like **** in the game that could've gotten us into the finals because the others showed up in game 7 when they could've nipped it in the bud in 6.
Brown choked at the end and Tatum balled out on Lebron

Like i said, argue all you want but it's just what it is
Your consistent bias against Brown again defies belief. Tatum completely flopped in the putaway game in G6 but that's not relevant because he played well in G7?

Brown was also better than Tatum for that whole playoff run, and in my opinion was better this playoff run too.
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Re: Value comparison of Jaylen and Jayson
« Reply #44 on: July 21, 2019, 06:33:26 AM »

Offline playdream

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Quote
Brown choked at the end and Tatum balled out on Lebron

Like i said, argue all you want but it's just what it is

When a lot of people disagree with you it could mean you're wrong.  I have already proven that you make comments that statistically incorrect.

Your not winning these arguments, your just showing your hate of Brown clouds you're thought process.
There are tons of proofs that you are wrong , but if you say so then i guess it's right, in your mind though
« Last Edit: July 21, 2019, 06:39:52 AM by playdream »