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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Fireworks_Boom! on June 15, 2018, 02:11:37 PM

Title: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Fireworks_Boom! on June 15, 2018, 02:11:37 PM
I just don't see why people are so hopeful of landing him. I feel like we have a younger version of him in the making in Jaylen Brown on a cost controlled contract and someone who is healthy. Obviously, you can argue KL is better but is he 4-6x better? And isn';t JB on the same career trajectory as KL? Will he ever reach the height of KL? No one can tell. But I'm willing to bet on it. He has athleticism through the roof and his work ethic and drive to be the best matches his athleticism level.

I just don't see why people are so hell bent on getting KL. Look close at the stats:

Kawhi Leonard
Age 20: 7.9ppg/5.1rpg in 24mpg
Age 21: 11.9ppg/6.0rpg in 31mpg
Age 22: 12.8ppg/6.2rpg in 29mpg
Age 23: 16.5ppg/7.2rpg in 32mpg
Age 24: 21.2ppg/ 6.8rpg in 33mpg
Age 25: 25.5ppg/5.8rpg in 33mpg

Jaylen Brown
Age 20: 6.6ppg/3rpg in 17mpg
Age 21: 14.5ppg/5rpg in 31mpg

It's arguable, JB has developed even quicker than KL as he is already nearly matching Season 4 output in his 2nd season.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: PhoSita on June 15, 2018, 02:14:32 PM
Yeah, I'd rather keep Jaylen and Jayson.  Having two young, cost controlled star caliber players is a huge advantage for the team right now.  Why mess with that?  Kawhi is a very good player but who knows what his health issues are, and adding him would seriously screw with the cap situation after this year.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: SparzWizard on June 15, 2018, 02:16:15 PM
JB had great surrounding casts and an exceptional coach in his second year.

Although one can argue that his two best teammates were sitting out the entire year.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: celticinorlando on June 15, 2018, 02:18:24 PM
I am not moving major pieces for anyone. Let James go West with Leonard.

Boston needs to add a good piece at #27, resign Smart and Baynes and tweak their bench. Not trading young guys with a massive upside and great contracts.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Fireworks_Boom! on June 15, 2018, 02:20:32 PM
JB had great surrounding casts and an exceptional coach in his second year.

Although one can argue that his two best teammates were sitting out the entire year.

Kawhi Leonard had arguably a better coach in Pops and a better supporting cast (Tony Parker, Manu Gionbli, Stephen Jackson, Tim Duncan).
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: manl_lui on June 15, 2018, 02:20:38 PM
it will be interesting

potential LA lineup of Leonard/LeBron/PG

but since LeBron is potentially going out west, let him duke it out with Golden State, and Houston year in and year out

open up the road to the finals (hopefully cake walk for the Celtics if we are healthy) vs any battle scarred Western team
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: droopdog7 on June 15, 2018, 02:23:30 PM
I'm not for trade, but there are plenty of question marks around Jaylen and no guarantee that he eventually puts it together enough to be a star (i.e., multiple time all star).
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Vox_Populi on June 15, 2018, 02:24:45 PM
I would hate to lose Jaylen. He's my favorite current Celtic.

But obviously if Ainge and the front-office think it's a good deal, then I'd trust their call.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Monkhouse on June 15, 2018, 02:25:56 PM
I really don't want to give up Jaylen..
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Fireworks_Boom! on June 15, 2018, 02:29:03 PM
I'm not for trade, but there are plenty of question marks around Jaylen and no guarantee that he eventually puts it together enough to be a star (i.e., multiple time all star).

What gives you this perspective?

Nearly every stat shows that he is reaching new heights and potential. (Year-over-Year (YoY): FG% 454 vs. 465, 3P% .341 vs. .395, eFG .508 vs. .540)
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: SparzWizard on June 15, 2018, 02:33:44 PM
I'm just saying guys, Leonard is just a rental. It's one thing to lose him for nothing, but it's another thing to lose him to the Lakers. This is just like the whole Jimmy Butler/Paul George thing of last year.

Don't do it!
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: BitterJim on June 15, 2018, 02:34:11 PM
The only reasons not to give up Jaylen for Leonard are concerns about his health and whether or not he'd be willing to re-sign here. Brown is a very good defender and has looked good on offense, but Kawhi Leonard is a two-time DPOY and averaged over 25ppg just 2 years ago. Having high hopes for Brown is great, but expecting him to be as good as Kawhi Leonard is unreasonable

All that said, I don't see us trading for him (either due to injury, not trusting he'll re-sign, or [most likely] the price being too high for us to pay without ripping the team apart or giving up Tatum)
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: droopdog7 on June 15, 2018, 02:36:33 PM
I'm not for trade, but there are plenty of question marks around Jaylen and no guarantee that he eventually puts it together enough to be a star (i.e., multiple time all star).

What gives you this perspective?

Nearly every stat shows that he is reaching new heights and potential. (Year-over-Year (YoY): FG% 454 vs. 465, 3P% .341 vs. .395, eFG .508 vs. .540)
The two biggest question marks are his feel for the game (for his age) and his handle.  Both lead to Brown getting into situations that where mistakes are made.  I'm not sure I know of another player that gets his shot blocked as much as he does. 

Mind you, I'm not calling him a bad player but how does he go from below average for his age (on feel for the game) to average or above?  These are things he needs to overcome to become a star.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: droopdog7 on June 15, 2018, 02:37:50 PM
The only reasons not to give up Jaylen for Leonard are concerns about his health and whether or not he'd be willing to re-sign here. Brown is a very good defender and has looked good on offense, but Kawhi Leonard is a two-time DPOY and averaged over 25ppg just 2 years ago. Having high hopes for Brown is great, but expecting him to be as good as Kawhi Leonard is unreasonable

All that said, I don't see us trading for him (either due to injury, not trusting he'll re-sign, or [most likely] the price being too high for us to pay without ripping the team apart or giving up Tatum)
Completely agree. 
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: KGBirdBias on June 15, 2018, 02:45:01 PM
Ainge...do NOT trade Tatum for Kawhi. Got it??😡😡

Brown, .Morris, Smart and 2 high picks.

First Kawhi has to agree to extension before any deal is done.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: perks-a-beast on June 15, 2018, 02:46:38 PM
Yeah, I'd rather keep Jaylen and Jayson.  Having two young, cost controlled star caliber players is a huge advantage for the team right now.  Why mess with that?  Kawhi is a very good player but who knows what his health issues are, and adding him would seriously screw with the cap situation after this year.

Absolutely. i wouldn't even want to give up one of Jaylen or Jayson for Kawhi let alone both. Which some people think is actually a reasonable asking price..
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: BitterJim on June 15, 2018, 02:50:12 PM
Ainge...do NOT trade Tatum for Kawhi. Got it??😡😡

Brown, .Morris, Smart and 2 high picks.

First Kawhi has to agree to extension before any deal is done.

An extension would be a non-starter. Kawhi isn't gonna give up tens of millions of dollars to be stuck long term on a team that he might not like. The only way any trade for him happens is with him becoming a FA next summer
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: konkmv on June 15, 2018, 02:50:58 PM
Whoever trades Brown or Tatum should be fired
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: GreenEnvy on June 15, 2018, 02:54:07 PM
Whoever trades Brown or Tatum should be fired

Better players have been traded before.

It’s all about what he gets for them. Ainge has a better handle on this team and it’s finances than any of us could ever possibly have.

If he deals either of them, I trust he did it for good reason. If we all know their star potential, I’m sure the guy that drafted them knows as well.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: libermaniac on June 15, 2018, 03:04:05 PM
Amen brother.  TP!  Do not mortgage the future.  Just hold the ship straight and steady.  We got this!
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Smartacus on June 15, 2018, 03:10:35 PM
This reminds me of the mystery box joke from Family Guy.

I mean Kawhi Leonard's Kawhi Leonard. But Jaylen Brown could be anything... He could even be Kawhi Leonard.

If you do the trade its because our time to compete for a title is now. Kyrie, Hayward, Leonard, Tatum, Horford is a championship core on par with GS. That can be viewed as more valuable than Jaylen's sky high potential.

If Tatum continues to develop you'll have to make some hard choices in 3 years but by then who know's what the NBA will look like? Brown for Leonard is bird in the hand.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: KGBirdBias on June 15, 2018, 03:14:36 PM
I think Ainge is looking for that lock down defender for KD and Kawhi is it.

I just can't see it unless he agrees to extension. Why do it for a rental...not worth it.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: CelticSince83 on June 15, 2018, 03:18:40 PM
I'm not for trade, but there are plenty of question marks around Jaylen and no guarantee that he eventually puts it together enough to be a star (i.e., multiple time all star).

As opposed to KL, who is basically a sure thing, right?  Super reliable, a guy his teammates can always count on.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Ilikesports17 on June 15, 2018, 03:25:00 PM
How would the money work?
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Moranis on June 15, 2018, 03:26:30 PM
To keep him off of other teams.  It is all well and good to not want to give up the farm for Leonard, but Boston can kiss any shot at winning the title over the next 3-5 years if Leonard ends up in LA with James or on the Sixers (not to mention the Warriors are still out there). 
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Birdman on June 15, 2018, 03:26:40 PM
At least this kills the Lebron to boston rumors..for now
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: KGBirdBias on June 15, 2018, 03:27:59 PM
Simple trade would be Kyrie for Kawhi. Both are pending FA and salaries probably match...both coming off injury.

Rozier has proved he can handle starting.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Vox_Populi on June 15, 2018, 03:35:23 PM
To keep him off of other teams.  It is all well and good to not want to give up the farm for Leonard, but Boston can kiss any shot at winning the title over the next 3-5 years if Leonard ends up in LA with James or on the Sixers (not to mention the Warriors are still out there).
If only Leonard ends up on Philly, they're still not better than Boston. Even if he and James end up in L.A., that's not a team I'd consider unbeatable unless they get George too.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: celticinorlando on June 15, 2018, 03:40:58 PM
I am good with staying put or making a move. Boston is in such a great position no matter what...add an all star or keep developing your future All Stars
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: LarBrd33 on June 15, 2018, 03:41:34 PM
At least this kills the Lebron to boston rumors..for now
but not really.  The fans who believe kyrie and Lebron hate each other will just imagine trading kyrie for kawhi and then Horford for Lebron
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Celtics4ever on June 15, 2018, 03:42:04 PM
I think if we trade anyone for Kawhi, it will be Kyrie and I honestly doubt even that happens.   We don't know how healthy he is and his best year was two years ago.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: j804 on June 15, 2018, 03:42:09 PM
Simple trade would be Kyrie for Kawhi. Both are pending FA and salaries probably match...both coming off injury.

Rozier has proved he can handle starting.
Why would you do that? The plan would be to lock up Kyrie/Kawhi long term and be a force for years to come. Those guys would have the best shot at knocking out the Warriors too. I’m all in on Kawhi.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: celticinorlando on June 15, 2018, 03:43:00 PM
At least this kills the Lebron to boston rumors..for now
but not really.  The fans who believe kyrie and Lebron hate each other will just imagine trading kyrie for kawhi and then Horford for Lebron

If Ainge does all of that...he is just in a lab creating Frankenstein. That would be crazy..but I could see it going down.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Dino Pitino on June 15, 2018, 03:46:10 PM
Quote
I'm not sure I know of another player that gets his shot blocked as much as he does.

Blocked by Korver, too. That alone has me second-guessing his athleticism, lol.

I would rather trade Kyrie for Leonard, still. Smart/Rozier, Brown, Leonard, Tatum, Horford would be a dominant defense.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: CF033 on June 15, 2018, 03:48:51 PM
Just say no to LeBron
Just say no to Kawhi

Let's not risk future pieces for guys who may not even want to stick around long term.

We have the chance to build a team that will win for years to come, no need for instant gratification. Let's keep the current team as-is.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Big333223 on June 15, 2018, 03:51:26 PM
I worry about Kawhi. The situation in San Antonio is just so strange. It sounds like maybe he's listening to some people he shouldn't be which can make everything more complicated going forward.

On top of that, after 7 seasons, Kawhi has missed about 30% of his games with injuries, including this mysterious hamstring injury that was allegedly fixed a few years ago but... wasn't.

If I didn't already think the Celtics were a championship team, I would absolutely take the risk on Kawhi. But I think the Celtics team we have now can win a championship this season. With that in mind, the risk is a little too much for me. I want to see what the group we have now can do.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: KGBirdBias on June 15, 2018, 04:13:13 PM
Well if something is going down, I suspect it will be on draft night.

Sounds like the Celtics have monitored his situation for awhile. At some point Ainge has to stabilize this roster and can't keep looking at the next pretty girl that comes along.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: blink on June 15, 2018, 04:13:52 PM
I worry about Kawhi. The situation in San Antonio is just so strange. It sounds like maybe he's listening to some people he shouldn't be which can make everything more complicated going forward.

On top of that, after 7 seasons, Kawhi has missed about 30% of his games with injuries, including this mysterious hamstring injury that was allegedly fixed a few years ago but... wasn't.

If I didn't already think the Celtics were a championship team, I would absolutely take the risk on Kawhi. But I think the Celtics team we have now can win a championship this season. With that in mind, the risk is a little too much for me. I want to see what the group we have now can do.

I agree the Kawhi thing and the Spurs is really odd.  He is supposed to be a pretty decent guy, the Spurs are one of the best organizations in all of pro sports.  What happened to get to this point?  If I am DA that is a question I want answered
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: blink on June 15, 2018, 04:16:24 PM
Quote
I'm not sure I know of another player that gets his shot blocked as much as he does.

Blocked by Korver, too. That alone has me second-guessing his athleticism, lol.

I would rather trade Kyrie for Leonard, still. Smart/Rozier, Brown, Leonard, Tatum, Horford would be a dominant defense.

Is there any way that G. Hayward could handle a point forward type position?  Is he a good enough ball handler?

Hayward - Brown - Leonard - Tatum - Horford would be a scary lineup for the rest of the nba if one of those guys could run the show.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: mef730 on June 15, 2018, 04:19:07 PM
We are NOT trading Brown in a Leonard move. We just aren't.

Look, Danny is the most cap-focused GM in basketball. Trading a talented young guy for a guy on the verge of a huge contract would be inconsistent with everything he's done over the past several years.

Mike
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: saltlover on June 15, 2018, 04:32:17 PM
We are NOT trading Brown in a Leonard move. We just aren't.

Look, Danny is the most cap-focused GM in basketball. Trading a talented young guy for a guy on the verge of a huge contract would be inconsistent with everything he's done over the past several years.

Mike

Brown is due a huge contact (not quite as huge but still large) only one season later than Kawhi.

Danny is championship-level player focused.  The cap focus is a means to an end — that end being guys like Hayward, Horford, Kyrie, and perhaps Kawhi.  If Ainge thinks that Kawhi is more championship-caliber than Jaylen (which, unless you have serious reservations about his health, is true), then yes, Brown will he traded and Danny won’t blink an eye.

There’s a price that’s too high for Ainge, but it isn’t Jaylen.  Not clear if Tatum would be a price too high.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: rondofan1255 on June 15, 2018, 04:36:32 PM
I worry about Kawhi. The situation in San Antonio is just so strange. It sounds like maybe he's listening to some people he shouldn't be which can make everything more complicated going forward.

On top of that, after 7 seasons, Kawhi has missed about 30% of his games with injuries, including this mysterious hamstring injury that was allegedly fixed a few years ago but... wasn't.

If I didn't already think the Celtics were a championship team, I would absolutely take the risk on Kawhi. But I think the Celtics team we have now can win a championship this season. With that in mind, the risk is a little too much for me. I want to see what the group we have now can do.

I agree the Kawhi thing and the Spurs is really odd.  He is supposed to be a pretty decent guy, the Spurs are one of the best organizations in all of pro sports.  What happened to get to this point?  If I am DA that is a question I want answered

Agreed. Aldridge had problems too and demanded a trade last summer too, strange...
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: footey on June 15, 2018, 04:37:22 PM
Love Jaylen, but doubt he is destined to reach Kawhi's level of greatness.  Kawhi is the Lebron (and hopefully, Durant) anti-dote. 

Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: LarBrd33 on June 15, 2018, 04:43:34 PM
Kawhi and Jimmy Butler are a couple rare exceptions.  Generally, NBA superstars reach that level before age 23.  Go back and look at guys like Durant, Anthony Davis, Kobe, LeBron, etc and you'll see all of them more or less reach their superstar stat output by age 21.  That's why you should prepare yourself for Tatum (a true superstar prospect) to reach that level as early as next season.

With Kawhi and JImmy, they had uniquely weird developmental paths where they slowly improved over the course of 5 seasons getting to their "star" level at age 25. 

That's not really typical. 

So I understand how you can look at someone like Jaylen's current trajectory and say "oh, he's on path to be the next Jimmy Butler in a few more years."  To be clear, I was actually on board with the Jaylen Brown pick on day 1 and said I hoped he could be Jimmy Butler in 5 years, so I'm not totally dismissing that concept.  But I think we need to be careful about not setting our expectations too high.   

Jaylen Brown 2nd year:  14.5 points, 4.9 rebounds, 1.6 assists, 1 steal with 46.5%/39.5%/64.4% shooting.

Jeff Green 2nd year: 16.5 points, 6.7 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal with 44.6%/38.9%/78.8% shooting.

If you were to back a decade and ask me about Jeff Green, I would have told you he was on a path to stardom and could probably be the best player on a team if they didn't already have the phenom Durant.  Green was a similar player.  Decent shot, strong defender, super athletic, explosive, limited offensive skill set. 

I remember getting a glimpse into how good Jeff Green could be during Feburary of his 2nd season when he put up averages of 20.5 points, 9.5 rebounds, 2.7 assists with 45.7%/40.5%/79% shooting.  That was a whole month of Green looking like an all-star during his 2nd season.

In a lot of ways Tatum/Brown reminded me a TON of Durant/Green this season. 

For what it's worth, I think Green was poorly developed.  He played out of position early on (before it was trendy) and SEA/OKC didn't have the supporting talent, coaching and environment for him to blossom the same way Brown can.  Also, Green always seemed a little checked out.  Brown seems motivated and hungry to go beyond Green's ceiling.   

But just because he's improved doesn't mean he's a guarantee to continue improving.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: PhoSita on June 15, 2018, 04:47:51 PM
I would spend the next twenty minutes of my life showing you how stupid it is to compare young Jeff Green to Jaylen Brown, but life is too short even for twenty minutes.

I'll just say, either you don't really believe that take or you haven't thought about the context of those stats much at all.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Moranis on June 15, 2018, 04:48:06 PM
To keep him off of other teams.  It is all well and good to not want to give up the farm for Leonard, but Boston can kiss any shot at winning the title over the next 3-5 years if Leonard ends up in LA with James or on the Sixers (not to mention the Warriors are still out there).
If only Leonard ends up on Philly, they're still not better than Boston. Even if he and James end up in L.A., that's not a team I'd consider unbeatable unless they get George too.
Philly is absolutely better than Boston if Leonard joins them if the trade is something like Covington, Fultz, and 10.  They could even add Saric and 26 and they are still likely better, and in that scenario they still have cap room for another max player or can just re-sign all of their free agents i.e. Redick, Ilyasova, Belinelli, and Johnson.

This is a pretty darn good team

PG - Simmons, McConnell, Bayless
SG - Redick, Belinelli, Korkmaz
SF - Leonard, Anderson, Luwauw-Cabarrot
PF - Ilyasova, Johnson
C - Embiid, Holmes

That team is absolutely stacked
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: playdream on June 15, 2018, 04:59:04 PM
Just say no to LeBron
Just say no to Kawhi

Let's not risk future pieces for guys who may not even want to stick around long term.

We have the chance to build a team that will win for years to come, no need for instant gratification. Let's keep the current team as-is.
Brown may not want to stick long term, he already puplic stated concern about Ainge+Brad's decision of trading IT
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Monkhouse on June 15, 2018, 05:02:26 PM
Green and Brown don't even play the same, or even share similar characteristics/interests/personalities on and off the court.

Green doesn't even have half the work ethic, Brown have had. Whether or not the lost potential is due to his heart surgery, who knows... But Brown is clearly better than Green, let's be honest.

Just say no to LeBron
Just say no to Kawhi

Let's not risk future pieces for guys who may not even want to stick around long term.

We have the chance to build a team that will win for years to come, no need for instant gratification. Let's keep the current team as-is.
Brown may not want to stick long term, he already puplic stated concern about Ainge+Brad's decision of trading IT

You don't know, that's just speculation.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: nickagneta on June 15, 2018, 05:03:18 PM
I would spend the next twenty minutes of my life showing you how stupid it is to compare young Jeff Green to Jaylen Brown, but life is too short even for twenty minutes.

I'll just say, either you don't really believe that take or you haven't thought about the context of those stats much at all.
No its a take he brings up periodically to get a reaction.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Dino Pitino on June 15, 2018, 05:11:56 PM
Quote
I'm not sure I know of another player that gets his shot blocked as much as he does.

Blocked by Korver, too. That alone has me second-guessing his athleticism, lol.

I would rather trade Kyrie for Leonard, still. Smart/Rozier, Brown, Leonard, Tatum, Horford would be a dominant defense.

Is there any way that G. Hayward could handle a point forward type position?  Is he a good enough ball handler?

Hayward - Brown - Leonard - Tatum - Horford would be a scary lineup for the rest of the nba if one of those guys could run the show.

Bahahaha, I completely forgot about Hayward. Yeah Brown Hayward Leonard Tatum Horford is a lineup of doom. They would all run the show, each of them. A nightmare of interchangeability.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: TheSundanceKid on June 15, 2018, 05:43:34 PM
JB had great surrounding casts and an exceptional coach in his second year.

Although one can argue that his two best teammates were sitting out the entire year.

Are you trying to tell me Kawhi was in a cesspit in San Antonio? Have we forgotten Tim Duncan already????
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: TheSundanceKid on June 15, 2018, 05:44:58 PM
I'll bet all my tommy points with someone that Kawhi or Lebron don't come here, any takers?
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Phantom255x on June 15, 2018, 05:46:06 PM
I think Jaylen's ceiling is Kawhi Leonard with better athleticism.

Tatum's ceiling is similar to KD's (so slightly better than Leonard's or about the same)

Of course, some folks will call me a crazy homer for saying that  :P

But yeah, I'd *consider* trading Jaylen in a package for Kawhi but ultimately wouldn't. Jaylen's young, on a rookie contract and currently on a trajectory similar to Kawhi/Butler/George. Not too shabby  8)
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Celtics4ever on June 15, 2018, 06:30:53 PM
Quote
Philly is absolutely better than Boston if Leonard joins them if the trade is something like Covington, Fultz, and 10.

I don't agree.   JR is a FA and if they get Leonard would they resign them.   There goes the outside shooting.   Also FA  Amir and Bellini, some of their good bench bigs.  Simmons can't shoot zone it up and let him and Embiid brick their way to losses.   Embiid can't be relied of in terms of health.   Also, add Irving and Hayward and we would clobber them.  Hype does not win games!

No one is going to give up crap for Fultz, you had their front office peeps just come and say they advised against drafting him.

Quote
"It was a decision praised at the time, but after Fultz struggled in his workout with the Sixers last June, league sources say some Sixers front office members suggested that despite making the trade, the team should have taken a second look at Tatum or Lonzo Ball. But the idea was shot down by Colangelo, according to sources."

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2780982-bryan-colangelo-reportedly-overruled-76ers-execs-about-drafting-markelle-fultz

This just came out a few days, do you think that helps his trade value?  Nope.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Big333223 on June 15, 2018, 06:33:33 PM
Kawhi and Jimmy Butler are a couple rare exceptions.  Generally, NBA superstars reach that level before age 23.  Go back and look at guys like Durant, Anthony Davis, Kobe, LeBron, etc and you'll see all of them more or less reach their superstar stat output by age 21.  That's why you should prepare yourself for Tatum (a true superstar prospect) to reach that level as early as next season.

With Kawhi and JImmy, they had uniquely weird developmental paths where they slowly improved over the course of 5 seasons getting to their "star" level at age 25. 

It's not as rare as you think. Kawhi made his first all star team at 24, Jimmy Butler at 25. Demar Derozan, Klay Thompson, and Bradley Beal were 24. Steph Curry was 25. Gordon Hayward, Kemba Walker, and Lamarcus Aldridge were 26.  Paul George made it when he was 22 but his 2nd year numbers weren't as good as Jaylens were.

The real outliers are guys like Kyle Lowry or Paul Millsap who don't make it until they're, like 28.

So Jaylen might not be Durant or Anthony Davis but if he turns out to be Paul George that would be excellent.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Fireworks_Boom! on June 15, 2018, 08:05:29 PM
Brown is due a huge contact (not quite as huge but still large) only one season later than Kawhi.

I don't get this point and I don't think it's accurate either. Brown is cost-controlled for 2 more years right now (18/19 @ $5.2m and 19/20 @ $6.5m Team Option) with a qualifying offer of $8.6m the following season and right to match. Kawhi is currently making $20m+ for this upcoming season and the one following and set to make more thereafter.

I don't think this is the right move for this team. Jaylen Brown's skillset is similar to KL and allows us to invest in other areas. I'd rather we traded for Karl-Anthony Towns than KL.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Tr1boy on June 15, 2018, 08:16:38 PM
I think Jaylen's ceiling is Kawhi Leonard with better athleticism.

Tatum's ceiling is similar to KD's (so slightly better than Leonard's or about the same)

Of course, some folks will call me a crazy homer for saying that  :P

But yeah, I'd *consider* trading Jaylen in a package for Kawhi but ultimately wouldn't. Jaylen's young, on a rookie contract and currently on a trajectory similar to Kawhi/Butler/George. Not too shabby  8)

whats next, Yabusele is the next Draymond Green?

come on man lol

Leonard is a "careful player".   Brown imo can be a little wild/trigger happy at times

Durant can score over anybody.   3 pt range is ridiculous.  high elevation and quick release.   Tatum doesn't have this capability.  Tatum is going to be good, but more comparable to PG13 but with a slightly higher potential
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: gouki88 on June 15, 2018, 08:20:10 PM
I think Jaylen's ceiling is Kawhi Leonard with better athleticism.

Tatum's ceiling is similar to KD's (so slightly better than Leonard's or about the same)

Of course, some folks will call me a crazy homer for saying that  :P

But yeah, I'd *consider* trading Jaylen in a package for Kawhi but ultimately wouldn't. Jaylen's young, on a rookie contract and currently on a trajectory similar to Kawhi/Butler/George. Not too shabby  8)
I don’t think Jaylen will ever be as good defensively as Kawhi. And that’s not a diss to JB, but Kawhi is probably the best wing defender I’ve seen post-2000. He’s an absolute game changer on defence, and is still a better rebounder and better and more efficient scorer than JB. JB has a long way to go before he gets there.

I think JT could be GSW Durant-esque, but obviously shorter. Not the gaudy numbers of OKC Durant, but efficient 22-26ppg with good defence
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: LarBrd33 on June 15, 2018, 08:42:03 PM
Honestly, if you were trying to build a poor man's version of the Warriors to match up with Steph, Klay, Durant and Draymond... you'd basically come up with Kyrie, Hayward, Kawhi and Horford.  That's about as close as it gets.  If you can have those 4 while also keeping Tatum and think you can keep all those guys long-term, you might have to do it.

Kyrie = Steph - sharp-shooting dynamic and efficient guard
Hayward = Klay - Elite shooter
Kawhi = Durant - Mvp-level talent
Horford = Draymond - Floor spreading big who does a little of everything

Man, if you can get those 4, keep Tatum AND most of our key picks, we're in business.  Hence why Brown + a Smart sign-and-trade might be the deal to make.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: KGBirdBias on June 15, 2018, 08:57:47 PM
Let's say Ainge makes a deal of Brown, Smart and picks for Kawhi.

Then we have a lineup of
Kyrie
Hayward
Tatum
Kawhi
Horford

Ainge will then have to decide who to sign either Kyrie or Kawhi. Since Rozier is on board, Kyrie may be the odd man out.  I think Ainge could then still work a S&T involving Horford for the one that doesn't want to resign. Ainge would be betting both don't want to walk and if they both want to sign, then Horford and Rozier are gone.

Getting both will make it harder for both to turn down big money. Either way, Ainge wouldn't let them walk for nothing.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: KGBirdBias on June 15, 2018, 09:07:03 PM
Another angle is...is Ainge just trying to get in talks in the event teams need a 3rd team.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: keevsnick on June 15, 2018, 09:17:24 PM
Kawhi and Jimmy Butler are a couple rare exceptions.  Generally, NBA superstars reach that level before age 23.  Go back and look at guys like Durant, Anthony Davis, Kobe, LeBron, etc and you'll see all of them more or less reach their superstar stat output by age 21.  That's why you should prepare yourself for Tatum (a true superstar prospect) to reach that level as early as next season.

With Kawhi and JImmy, they had uniquely weird developmental paths where they slowly improved over the course of 5 seasons getting to their "star" level at age 25. 

That's not really typical. 

So I understand how you can look at someone like Jaylen's current trajectory and say "oh, he's on path to be the next Jimmy Butler in a few more years."  To be clear, I was actually on board with the Jaylen Brown pick on day 1 and said I hoped he could be Jimmy Butler in 5 years, so I'm not totally dismissing that concept.  But I think we need to be careful about not setting our expectations too high.   

Jaylen Brown 2nd year:  14.5 points, 4.9 rebounds, 1.6 assists, 1 steal with 46.5%/39.5%/64.4% shooting.

Jeff Green 2nd year: 16.5 points, 6.7 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal with 44.6%/38.9%/78.8% shooting.

If you were to back a decade and ask me about Jeff Green, I would have told you he was on a path to stardom and could probably be the best player on a team if they didn't already have the phenom Durant.  Green was a similar player.  Decent shot, strong defender, super athletic, explosive, limited offensive skill set. 

I remember getting a glimpse into how good Jeff Green could be during Feburary of his 2nd season when he put up averages of 20.5 points, 9.5 rebounds, 2.7 assists with 45.7%/40.5%/79% shooting.  That was a whole month of Green looking like an all-star during his 2nd season.

In a lot of ways Tatum/Brown reminded me a TON of Durant/Green this season. 

For what it's worth, I think Green was poorly developed.  He played out of position early on (before it was trendy) and SEA/OKC didn't have the supporting talent, coaching and environment for him to blossom the same way Brown can.  Also, Green always seemed a little checked out.  Brown seems motivated and hungry to go beyond Green's ceiling.   

But just because he's improved doesn't mean he's a guarantee to continue improving.

Its not just Butler and Kawhi, he also is at or ahead of were George and Hayward were at 21. So that 4 of the top 6 SFS in the league. So sure, hes not Lebron or Durant. FINE. Neither is Tatum, almost nobody is thay good. Even if hes a George, Butler, Hayward level (top20) you still probably keep him cuz of age, peice, health over Kawhi.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: vjcsmoke on June 15, 2018, 09:35:26 PM
If we give up Jaylen Brown, Marcus Morris, Marcus Smart (sign&trade), Kings pick, and two other 1st round picks, I think this is a deal that San Antonio could accept.

Of course you want to talk to Kahwi first and make sure he wants to be in Boston, wants to sign that extension, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I love Jaylen Brown, and I believe he has a super bright future.  But Kahwi is one of those guys that would bring the Celtics to the next level, championship level.

A lineup of Irving, Hayward, Leonard, Tatum, Horford puts us in direct footing to challenge and even beat Golden State!!!
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Sophomore on June 15, 2018, 10:02:46 PM
Honestly, if you were trying to build a poor man's version of the Warriors to match up with Steph, Klay, Durant and Draymond... you'd basically come up with Kyrie, Hayward, Kawhi and Horford.  That's about as close as it gets.  If you can have those 4 while also keeping Tatum and think you can keep all those guys long-term, you might have to do it.

Kyrie = Steph - sharp-shooting dynamic and efficient guard
Hayward = Klay - Elite shooter
Kawhi = Durant - Mvp-level talent
Horford = Draymond - Floor spreading big who does a little of everything

Man, if you can get those 4, keep Tatum AND most of our key picks, we're in business.  Hence why Brown + a Smart sign-and-trade might be the deal to make.

Yeah, I like that Celtics squad a little better. And that’s before we add Tatum as our fifth(!), who brings a lot that Iguodala does not.

This is such a hard call, but honestly, I still prefer the idea of running it back and adding Kyrie and Gordon.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: KGBirdBias on June 15, 2018, 10:53:51 PM
I know this is a stretch but could you imagine the defense with Smart, Kawhi and Horford. Geez...teams would struggle to get to 90.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: LarBrd33 on June 15, 2018, 11:34:09 PM
Let's say Ainge makes a deal of Brown, Smart and picks for Kawhi.

Then we have a lineup of
Kyrie
Hayward
Tatum
Kawhi
Horford

Ainge will then have to decide who to sign either Kyrie or Kawhi. Since Rozier is on board, Kyrie may be the odd man out.  I think Ainge could then still work a S&T involving Horford for the one that doesn't want to resign. Ainge would be betting both don't want to walk and if they both want to sign, then Horford and Rozier are gone.

Getting both will make it harder for both to turn down big money. Either way, Ainge wouldn't let them walk for nothing.
if we add kawhi the idea would be to sign both long term.  There’s no either/or.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: byennie on June 15, 2018, 11:54:16 PM
Honestly, if you were trying to build a poor man's version of the Warriors to match up with Steph, Klay, Durant and Draymond... you'd basically come up with Kyrie, Hayward, Kawhi and Horford.  That's about as close as it gets.  If you can have those 4 while also keeping Tatum and think you can keep all those guys long-term, you might have to do it.

Kyrie = Steph - sharp-shooting dynamic and efficient guard
Hayward = Klay - Elite shooter
Kawhi = Durant - Mvp-level talent
Horford = Draymond - Floor spreading big who does a little of everything

Man, if you can get those 4, keep Tatum AND most of our key picks, we're in business.  Hence why Brown + a Smart sign-and-trade might be the deal to make.

I do think this is the argument for going all-in with a package built around Brown. We'd be on par with Golden State 1-4, but with an easier path to The Finals, and potentially a full step above the rest of the way down the roster. Tatum, Baynes, Theis, Rozier blow away Iguodala, Livingston and Bell.

It can be argued either way which 1-4 is better, but I think most people would agree Irving can go toe-to-toe with Steph, Kawhi with Durant, and the rest are comparable as well. Maybe not strictly better than GS but "poor man's" is a little harsh and obviously draws the line right before Tatum, who is head and shoulders better than the 5th best player on any other team GS included.

Yeah, signing Kyrie and Kawhi is a big deal, but Golden State won't be any cheaper... they've already got a $150M starting lineup on the way in 2019/20 plus a repeater tax to think about.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: byennie on June 16, 2018, 12:09:58 AM
Let's say Ainge makes a deal of Brown, Smart and picks for Kawhi.

Then we have a lineup of
Kyrie
Hayward
Tatum
Kawhi
Horford

Ainge will then have to decide who to sign either Kyrie or Kawhi. Since Rozier is on board, Kyrie may be the odd man out.  I think Ainge could then still work a S&T involving Horford for the one that doesn't want to resign. Ainge would be betting both don't want to walk and if they both want to sign, then Horford and Rozier are gone.

Getting both will make it harder for both to turn down big money. Either way, Ainge wouldn't let them walk for nothing.
if we add kawhi the idea would be to sign both long term.  There’s no either/or.

Yup. They'll want to sign both. The next move is Al - either get him to opt out and sign a longer deal to retire in Boston (say 4/75) that saves us money right away, or find a cheap defensive replacement by 2020/21. Then Hayward's deal is up before Tatum gets rich. If Al burns out a year soon, maybe stretch the balance of the contract.

Fill the roster with more cheap young players and veteran role players... guys like Baynes, Theis, Ojeyele, 2nd rounders, last 1sts, etc. Keep a guy like Rozier for now if you can as a cheap 6th man/ PG insurance. Dump someone like Yabusele if he can't play for another minimum salary.

Put it all together and you have a solid 3-5 year window... with any luck you reload around Tatum even after that.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: LarBrd33 on June 16, 2018, 12:37:34 AM
Honestly, if you were trying to build a poor man's version of the Warriors to match up with Steph, Klay, Durant and Draymond... you'd basically come up with Kyrie, Hayward, Kawhi and Horford.  That's about as close as it gets.  If you can have those 4 while also keeping Tatum and think you can keep all those guys long-term, you might have to do it.

Kyrie = Steph - sharp-shooting dynamic and efficient guard
Hayward = Klay - Elite shooter
Kawhi = Durant - Mvp-level talent
Horford = Draymond - Floor spreading big who does a little of everything

Man, if you can get those 4, keep Tatum AND most of our key picks, we're in business.  Hence why Brown + a Smart sign-and-trade might be the deal to make.

I do think this is the argument for going all-in with a package built around Brown. We'd be on par with Golden State 1-4, but with an easier path to The Finals, and potentially a full step above the rest of the way down the roster. Tatum, Baynes, Theis, Rozier blow away Iguodala, Livingston and Bell.

It can be argued either way which 1-4 is better, but I think most people would agree Irving can go toe-to-toe with Steph, Kawhi with Durant, and the rest are comparable as well. Maybe not strictly better than GS but "poor man's" is a little harsh and obviously draws the line right before Tatum, who is head and shoulders better than the 5th best player on any other team GS included.

Yeah, signing Kyrie and Kawhi is a big deal, but Golden State won't be any cheaper... they've already got a $150M starting lineup on the way in 2019/20 plus a repeater tax to think about.
The freakiest thing is that in a year or two if Tatum develops on a typical superstar trajectory, a team of Kyrie, Kawhi, Tatum, Hayward and Horford probably has Gordon Hayward as the 4th option.  That's crazy.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: iadera on June 16, 2018, 02:23:03 AM
If he can make it with Jaylen, Kings pick and Rozier, than yes, DA will go after Kawhi.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Celtics4ever on June 16, 2018, 06:02:38 AM
Quote
If he can make it with Jaylen, Kings pick and Rozier, than yes, DA will go after Kawhi.

I think you're way off and he won't do it, he loves our guys.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: iadera on June 16, 2018, 06:44:12 AM
Quote
If he can make it with Jaylen, Kings pick and Rozier, than yes, DA will go after Kawhi.

I think you're way off and he won't do it, he loves our guys.

He loved IT4 as well. And you know what? Maybe he still loves him.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: KGBirdBias on June 16, 2018, 10:07:10 AM
Let's say Ainge makes a deal of Brown, Smart and picks for Kawhi.

Then we have a lineup of
Kyrie
Hayward
Tatum
Kawhi
Horford

Ainge will then have to decide who to sign either Kyrie or Kawhi. Since Rozier is on board, Kyrie may be the odd man out.  I think Ainge could then still work a S&T involving Horford for the one that doesn't want to resign. Ainge would be betting both don't want to walk and if they both want to sign, then Horford and Rozier are gone.

Getting both will make it harder for both to turn down big money. Either way, Ainge wouldn't let them walk for nothing.
if we add kawhi the idea would be to sign both long term.  There’s no either/or.

Um so you think the Celtics can absorb 4 guys making $25+M? I don't think so

It's not a bad thing, one can always be dealt in a S&T. Stevens believes Horford drives everything so until his deal can be part of another deal no one is going to take him off our hands by himself.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: KGBirdBias on June 16, 2018, 10:11:09 AM
I think a core deal of Brown, Morris, Baynes, Kings pick, Celtics 27th pick will be starters. Ainge can always throw in Memphis or LA pick if need be.

I don't believe Rozier will be included just because Kyrie is coming off an injury.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: BitterJim on June 16, 2018, 10:12:16 AM
Let's say Ainge makes a deal of Brown, Smart and picks for Kawhi.

Then we have a lineup of
Kyrie
Hayward
Tatum
Kawhi
Horford

Ainge will then have to decide who to sign either Kyrie or Kawhi. Since Rozier is on board, Kyrie may be the odd man out.  I think Ainge could then still work a S&T involving Horford for the one that doesn't want to resign. Ainge would be betting both don't want to walk and if they both want to sign, then Horford and Rozier are gone.

Getting both will make it harder for both to turn down big money. Either way, Ainge wouldn't let them walk for nothing.
if we add kawhi the idea would be to sign both long term.  There’s no either/or.

Um so you think the Celtics can absorb 4 guys making $25+M? I don't think so

It's not a bad thing, one can always be dealt in a S&T. Stevens believes Horford drives everything so until his deal can be part of another deal no one is going to take him off our hands by himself.

Ownership has said that they are willing to pay the tax for a contender. This team would definitely be one.

Wyc would have to sell the team if he didn't even try to re-sign both of those guys for monetary reasons, the fans would (understandably) never forgive him
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: KGBirdBias on June 16, 2018, 10:24:13 AM
I understand. Looking at it now, Horford could opt out of his player option in 2019-20 and resign a team friendly deal.

Convincing Kawhi to stay in Boston verses going home to LA would be a major task. Hayward, Kyrie and Horford would have to a major sell job.

A Lakers and Celtics battle again...gotta love it. LOL
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: saltlover on June 16, 2018, 11:03:13 AM
Let's say Ainge makes a deal of Brown, Smart and picks for Kawhi.

Then we have a lineup of
Kyrie
Hayward
Tatum
Kawhi
Horford

Ainge will then have to decide who to sign either Kyrie or Kawhi. Since Rozier is on board, Kyrie may be the odd man out.  I think Ainge could then still work a S&T involving Horford for the one that doesn't want to resign. Ainge would be betting both don't want to walk and if they both want to sign, then Horford and Rozier are gone.

Getting both will make it harder for both to turn down big money. Either way, Ainge wouldn't let them walk for nothing.
if we add kawhi the idea would be to sign both long term.  There’s no either/or.

Um so you think the Celtics can absorb 4 guys making $25+M? I don't think so

It's not a bad thing, one can always be dealt in a S&T. Stevens believes Horford drives everything so until his deal can be part of another deal no one is going to take him off our hands by himself.

Ainge does not trade for Kawhi unless he’s got ownership’s commitment to pay all four.  He’s not trading Kyrie for Kawhi (I don’t see the Spurs doing it with Kyrie’s injury and free agency status).  If you believe Ainge is actually making a push for Kawhi, then you need to also believe that he’s got the ownership go-ahead for big spending the next several years.

If a deal happens, I think it’s Brown, Rozier, Morris, Yabusele, and hopefully Nader going out.  I think they re-sign Smart.  Having committed to being a legit title contender, and with Kyrie and Kawhi hitting free agency, you don’t skimp and let him walk barring an out-of-this world offer.  Baynes will be trickier since you’re limited to the taxpayer MLE or his non-Bird rights, so I’m not sure he comes on board.

The roster looks something like this:

Kyrie
Hayward
Kawhi
Tatum
Horford

Smart
Ojeleye
Theis
Maybe Baynes
Bird
#27
Vet minimums types

That’s a tax team this year, but an affordable one ($5-10 million over the tax).  The following year it balloons to close to $30 million over, which yes, is incredibly expensive.  The hope would be that Al opts out next summer and resigns to something around $20 million a year, which would bring the payroll closer to $20 million over the tax — and a $40 million lower tax bill.

Long-term you’re probably choosing between Tatum and Hayward, as their contracts end at the same time.  If Tatum continues to ascend over the next 2-3 seasons, it’s an easy choice.  In the trade I propose above, I don’t think a draft pick needs inclusion to be the best offer — so there are still plenty of picks to develop, both for roster depth and to hope 1-2 pan out into long-term keepers (with a particular eye on the Sacramento pick).

And if we keep Jaylen and don’t do a trade, the roster is going to get similarly expensive over the coming years, although the tax can be postponed for a season and blowing way beyond the tax can be postponed by one year also.  But if you think Kawhi makes you the title favorite next year, and that you can keep him, because you feel he’ll resign and ownership says they’ll pay, then you make the deal.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: smokeablount on June 16, 2018, 12:19:02 PM
Let's say Ainge makes a deal of Brown, Smart and picks for Kawhi.

Then we have a lineup of
Kyrie
Hayward
Tatum
Kawhi
Horford

Ainge will then have to decide who to sign either Kyrie or Kawhi. Since Rozier is on board, Kyrie may be the odd man out.  I think Ainge could then still work a S&T involving Horford for the one that doesn't want to resign. Ainge would be betting both don't want to walk and if they both want to sign, then Horford and Rozier are gone.

Getting both will make it harder for both to turn down big money. Either way, Ainge wouldn't let them walk for nothing.
if we add kawhi the idea would be to sign both long term.  There’s no either/or.

Um so you think the Celtics can absorb 4 guys making $25+M? I don't think so

It's not a bad thing, one can always be dealt in a S&T. Stevens believes Horford drives everything so until his deal can be part of another deal no one is going to take him off our hands by himself.

Ainge does not trade for Kawhi unless he’s got ownership’s commitment to pay all four.  He’s not trading Kyrie for Kawhi (I don’t see the Spurs doing it with Kyrie’s injury and free agency status).  If you believe Ainge is actually making a push for Kawhi, then you need to also believe that he’s got the ownership go-ahead for big spending the next several years.

If a deal happens, I think it’s Brown, Rozier, Morris, Yabusele, and hopefully Nader going out.  I think they re-sign Smart.  Having committed to being a legit title contender, and with Kyrie and Kawhi hitting free agency, you don’t skimp and let him walk barring an out-of-this world offer.  Baynes will be trickier since you’re limited to the taxpayer MLE or his non-Bird rights, so I’m not sure he comes on board.

The roster looks something like this:

Kyrie
Hayward
Kawhi
Tatum
Horford

Smart
Ojeleye
Theis
Maybe Baynes
Bird
#27
Vet minimums types

That’s a tax team this year, but an affordable one ($5-10 million over the tax).  The following year it balloons to close to $30 million over, which yes, is incredibly expensive.  The hope would be that Al opts out next summer and resigns to something around $20 million a year, which would bring the payroll closer to $20 million over the tax — and a $40 million lower tax bill.

Long-term you’re probably choosing between Tatum and Hayward, as their contracts end at the same time.  If Tatum continues to ascend over the next 2-3 seasons, it’s an easy choice.  In the trade I propose above, I don’t think a draft pick needs inclusion to be the best offer — so there are still plenty of picks to develop, both for roster depth and to hope 1-2 pan out into long-term keepers (with a particular eye on the Sacramento pick).

And if we keep Jaylen and don’t do a trade, the roster is going to get similarly expensive over the coming years, although the tax can be postponed for a season and blowing way beyond the tax can be postponed by one year also.  But if you think Kawhi makes you the title favorite next year, and that you can keep him, because you feel he’ll resign and ownership says they’ll pay, then you make the deal.

Excellent breakdown, TP.

I was going to agree on some previous points before you did, namely that you don’t trade Brown for Kawhi and then let Kyrie walk, that makes no sense. Was going to add context about how much GS is spending, but you did that too.

I think I’m ok with either your proposition, standing pat this draft (maybe grabbing a guard) and having a quieter offseason, or trading up in the draft to get a top 10 pick to get a young big.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: SHAQATTACK on June 16, 2018, 01:05:29 PM
I d rather keep Brown ,  he seems loyal kid .  Kawhi seems bent on Major Market condender ...for the money as well as glory.

I would not count Danny out on this tho.
But ......i don't think POP and the Spur owners want to make the Lakers into a Super Team for years to come  in the West .

I think the Spurs will do their very best to make a deal in the East FIRST and foremost .   You don't want him in the West , no way .  And Leonard won't play for a nothing team .   This only leaves a few options ? With Celtics being the most logical.

Pop likes Celtics and Stevens .   I believe Celtics can land Kawhi for the BEST deal..... I just don't see Spurs sending him to their three top rivals , it would be for a kings ransom if at all.

I don't think Spurs would enable the Lakers ...FOR anything the lakers could possibly offer .   Even for all three Young Lakers tallent and allthe future firsts NBA would allow .  Spurs would take a lesser deal from others in West or East than Lakers.

Nobody wants to enable the Lakers to shoot back to the top again this fast.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Sophomore on June 16, 2018, 01:13:03 PM
Let's say Ainge makes a deal of Brown, Smart and picks for Kawhi.

Then we have a lineup of
Kyrie
Hayward
Tatum
Kawhi
Horford

Ainge will then have to decide who to sign either Kyrie or Kawhi. Since Rozier is on board, Kyrie may be the odd man out.  I think Ainge could then still work a S&T involving Horford for the one that doesn't want to resign. Ainge would be betting both don't want to walk and if they both want to sign, then Horford and Rozier are gone.

Getting both will make it harder for both to turn down big money. Either way, Ainge wouldn't let them walk for nothing.
if we add kawhi the idea would be to sign both long term.  There’s no either/or.

Um so you think the Celtics can absorb 4 guys making $25+M? I don't think so

It's not a bad thing, one can always be dealt in a S&T. Stevens believes Horford drives everything so until his deal can be part of another deal no one is going to take him off our hands by himself.

Ainge does not trade for Kawhi unless he’s got ownership’s commitment to pay all four.  He’s not trading Kyrie for Kawhi (I don’t see the Spurs doing it with Kyrie’s injury and free agency status).  If you believe Ainge is actually making a push for Kawhi, then you need to also believe that he’s got the ownership go-ahead for big spending the next several years.

If a deal happens, I think it’s Brown, Rozier, Morris, Yabusele, and hopefully Nader going out.  I think they re-sign Smart.  Having committed to being a legit title contender, and with Kyrie and Kawhi hitting free agency, you don’t skimp and let him walk barring an out-of-this world offer.  Baynes will be trickier since you’re limited to the taxpayer MLE or his non-Bird rights, so I’m not sure he comes on board.

The roster looks something like this:

Kyrie
Hayward
Kawhi
Tatum
Horford

Smart
Ojeleye
Theis
Maybe Baynes
Bird
#27
Vet minimums types

That’s a tax team this year, but an affordable one ($5-10 million over the tax).  The following year it balloons to close to $30 million over, which yes, is incredibly expensive.  The hope would be that Al opts out next summer and resigns to something around $20 million a year, which would bring the payroll closer to $20 million over the tax — and a $40 million lower tax bill.

Long-term you’re probably choosing between Tatum and Hayward, as their contracts end at the same time.  If Tatum continues to ascend over the next 2-3 seasons, it’s an easy choice.  In the trade I propose above, I don’t think a draft pick needs inclusion to be the best offer — so there are still plenty of picks to develop, both for roster depth and to hope 1-2 pan out into long-term keepers (with a particular eye on the Sacramento pick).

And if we keep Jaylen and don’t do a trade, the roster is going to get similarly expensive over the coming years, although the tax can be postponed for a season and blowing way beyond the tax can be postponed by one year also.  But if you think Kawhi makes you the title favorite next year, and that you can keep him, because you feel he’ll resign and ownership says they’ll pay, then you make the deal.

That bolded language is important to me. Most of the mock trades on this board, and the ESPN scenarios, have the Celtics also sending out picks. To me, that's too much risk. We would be depending on three players coming off season-ending injuries (and don't forget, this isn't Kawhi or Kyrie's first injury problem...) and emptying the cupboard of draft picks.

Our current trajectory, with even a little luck on the picks, already looks plenty bright with less risk.

If no picks are involved, I swing back a little toward the trade. But it's still very much an all-in scenario. A lot depends on getting right whether our three guys will be healthy and whether Kawhi will resign.


Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: PAOBoston on June 16, 2018, 01:14:39 PM
Leonard is a legit Top 5 player. When Ainge started the rebuild, he said he wanted to acquire as many assets as possible to be ready when/if these foundational type of guys became available.

I don't have a problem trading Brown if Leonard gives them a long term commitment. Otherwise, no way. Too much of a risk imo of losing everything you have worked hard to build up.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: KGBirdBias on June 16, 2018, 01:55:31 PM
I like Salts deal but I'm hesitant to give up Rozier.

Ainge needs two assurances:
Kyrie resigns and Kawhi resigns before any deals sending Brown and Rozier out the door. I think Ainge would part with the picks in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Vermont Green on June 16, 2018, 02:00:07 PM
Kawhi Leonard is a great player but I don't think he makes sense for the Celtics.  We already have 3 players at his position (wing meaning SG/SF).  Between the injury and the pending FA, there is just too much risk to make a big trade for him.  I could see a big trade for Davis or Towns or Porzingis (injury notwithstanding).

We are basically set at Point (Irving, Smart, Rozier) and Wing (Hayward, Tatum, Brown).  We may have the best PG in the league already (you could quibble Westbrook, Curry) and plenty of depth.  Short of Durant or LeBron, it is hard to improve on our wings (Leonard may or may not depending on injury/contract).  It is at the big position that there is potential improve.

Actually, if you were not concerned with the injury or the contract, the trade that makes the most sense would be Hayward plus something (maybe a pick) for Leonard.  If Leonard is at his best, that would be a marginal upgrade for us but that does not seem like a likely trade.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: KGBirdBias on June 16, 2018, 02:29:13 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on June 16, 2018, 02:42:15 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: BitterJim on June 16, 2018, 02:58:29 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on June 16, 2018, 03:05:48 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: td450 on June 16, 2018, 03:47:12 PM
The thing that has most impressed me about Ainge's rebuild is how masterfully he's distributed the ages of the team across a 12 year spectrum, with the most exciting guys we have starting at the beginning of their careers.

I have always seen the odds of winning a championship without having an MVP candidate as being fairly small, but I think we have as good a chance as anyone with this group. If we have an opportunity at an MVP level player, we have 3 all-stars, several high value draft picks and several nice role players who have trade value. If we use those assets, so be it, but I would be furious if they broke up Brown and Tatum for anyone.

Kawhi Leonard is definitely a top 5 player, but winning titles in the NBA also requires a huge amount of poise and character, and how Kawhi behaved last year was troubling. I would not want Ainge to overreach here.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: BitterJim on June 16, 2018, 03:53:09 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

Agreed that Jaylen's last game means nothing - he was a big reason we made it as far as we did, even with the hamstring injury. I'm just saying that Kawhi is better than anyone should expect Jaylen to be (not a shot at Jaylen, but Kawhi is that good)

All that said, based on what we know there's no way I trade for Kawhi. That injury scares the Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. out of me
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: KGBirdBias on June 16, 2018, 04:08:38 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: td450 on June 16, 2018, 04:32:01 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: KGBirdBias on June 16, 2018, 05:20:05 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.

No I'm not saying that but to become a multiple DPOY and top 5 player just isn't something that many players achieve but they can still be very good players.

I'm not sure where your odds came from but...ok

Keep in mind, guys that leave Stevens system fall into a NBA black hole and guys that come here look like totally different players.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: td450 on June 16, 2018, 05:40:22 PM
The odds were purely my opinion, and I agree that peak Kawhi (so far) was near MVP level.

San Antonio isn't a black hole. They have a pretty good track record of getting the best out of players too. T
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on June 16, 2018, 05:51:39 PM
What if Leonard has peaked? What if, when he is on a team with other all-star players, he only averages 18, 6, and 2 with all-nba level defense? What if his athleticism is waning as fast as Gerald Wallace's did at the same age?

Cuz that is how I view Leonard moving forward. Brown is almost that already, and has another 6-10 years of peak athleticism and development to his game.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: LarBrd33 on June 16, 2018, 06:02:32 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: keevsnick on June 16, 2018, 06:57:31 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

I just dont know how anybody can make such a definite statement about his potential. He is already better or comparable to Butler, George, Kawhi, Hayward at age 21. Given that all those guys became all stars or better the statement thay Brown is bery unlikely to be that good seems obviously flawed
Now I agree that Brown is unlikely to be as good as Kawhi, but given thay Kawhi made that leap in a similar situation (hard worker, raw talent lacking skills, good coach, winning team) its not impossible.

 And he doesnt need to reach peak Kawhi for us to regret a deal. Maybe he is just a Paul George level, his is still younger. cheaper, healthier and for all those reasons it could end up a bad trade. Im not saying u dont do it, but we have to be award it could go bad.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Sophomore on June 16, 2018, 07:11:59 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?

Or maybe, Ainge regrets this trade if Kawhi still has a bad wheel. Why is there so much confidence on this board that he’s fine? Obviously, I don’t know that he has a problem but it’s hardly crazy to wonder. He’s played about five games of regular season basketball since he landed on Zaza Pachulia’s  foot in 2017.  Who knows what he is? And don’t forget – he ended the season early in 2012 with an injury to his other knee.

It might make sense to trade for him, if the Celtics can be confident in us and his health. But I think all these trades need to be contingent on some basic facts none of us has.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: SHAQATTACK on June 16, 2018, 07:26:12 PM
You don't want Kawhi , with both Lebron and PG on the Lakers .....thats a problem

I hoping Spurs can find a place for him anywhere but LA

Spurs hate Lakers as bad or worse than Boston

I rather keep Brown and Kawhi go anywhere but Lakers
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: tenn_smoothie on June 16, 2018, 08:32:21 PM
I just don't see why people are so hopeful of landing him. I feel like we have a younger version of him in the making in Jaylen Brown on a cost controlled contract and someone who is healthy. Obviously, you can argue KL is better but is he 4-6x better? And isn';t JB on the same career trajectory as KL? Will he ever reach the height of KL? No one can tell. But I'm willing to bet on it. He has athleticism through the roof and his work ethic and drive to be the best matches his athleticism level.

I just don't see why people are so hell bent on getting KL. Look close at the stats:

Kawhi Leonard
Age 20: 7.9ppg/5.1rpg in 24mpg
Age 21: 11.9ppg/6.0rpg in 31mpg
Age 22: 12.8ppg/6.2rpg in 29mpg
Age 23: 16.5ppg/7.2rpg in 32mpg
Age 24: 21.2ppg/ 6.8rpg in 33mpg
Age 25: 25.5ppg/5.8rpg in 33mpg

Jaylen Brown
Age 20: 6.6ppg/3rpg in 17mpg
Age 21: 14.5ppg/5rpg in 31mpg

It's arguable, JB has developed even quicker than KL as he is already nearly matching Season 4 output in his 2nd season.

I am absolutely NOT hell-bent on acquiring Leonard. Don't trade our young, very talented players away for a guy that doesn't even want to be here. I'm sick of hearing about Leonard wants to play for the Lakers and Kyrie wants to be a Knick. If they are not begging to be a Celtic, I don't want them. Our young guys seem quite content to play here, long-term.

I am praying that Danny and his Trader Ego can stay patient and keep the very good team that we have now. If healthy, I say they are the biggest threat in the league to Golden State.

Why he wants to trade when he already has the players he needs is a continual frustration for this Celtic fan.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: CF033 on June 16, 2018, 09:43:31 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: LarBrd33 on June 16, 2018, 10:12:57 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

I just dont know how anybody can make such a definite statement about his potential. He is already better or comparable to Butler, George, Kawhi, Hayward at age 21. Given that all those guys became all stars or better the statement thay Brown is bery unlikely to be that good seems obviously flawed
Now I agree that Brown is unlikely to be as good as Kawhi, but given thay Kawhi made that leap in a similar situation (hard worker, raw talent lacking skills, good coach, winning team) its not impossible.

 And he doesnt need to reach peak Kawhi for us to regret a deal. Maybe he is just a Paul George level, his is still younger. cheaper, healthier and for all those reasons it could end up a bad trade. Im not saying u dont do it, but we have to be award it could go bad.
hes also the same level of Michael Beasley and Jeff green during their 2nd seasons.  I’m optimistic about Brown’s future too, but calm down.  Stop using exceptions to prove he’s a future star. Plenty of young players averaged 14 points in their 2nd year and didn’t become stars.  Brown more than likely will peak out as a fringe star.  His game is still pretty limited.  It’s possible, but not likely he ends up as good as Paul George.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: LarBrd33 on June 16, 2018, 10:19:09 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: KGBirdBias on June 16, 2018, 10:24:18 PM
Folks, we can't forget that Brown was the first or second option on a team that lost it's two best players...Ainge probably realizes that. Ainge contacts the Spurs at the deadline about Kawhi becuase he doesn't expect Tatum to play like a 10 yr vet in the playoffs.

Now when Kyrie and Hayward come back with Horford and Tatum, where is Brown on the food chain?? He's not getting more shots than 3 of the 4. However, we'll need someone to defend while Kyrie and Hayward can get buckets.

I don't mind keeping Brown but remember no one wanted to give up IT until Kyrie came available.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: LarBrd33 on June 16, 2018, 10:38:11 PM
Folks, we can't forget that Brown was the first or second option on a team that lost it's two best players...Ainge probably realizes that. Ainge contacts the Spurs at the deadline about Kawhi becuase he doesn't expect Tatum to play like a 10 yr vet in the playoffs.

Now when Kyrie and Hayward come back with Horford and Tatum, where is Brown on the food chain?? He's not getting more shots than 3 of the 4. However, we'll need someone to defend while Kyrie and Hayward can get buckets.

I don't mind keeping Brown but remember no one wanted to give up IT until Kyrie came available.
brown will be 4th option if everyone is healthy.  Maybe 6th man
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: gouki88 on June 16, 2018, 10:52:30 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Eddie20 on June 16, 2018, 11:48:04 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

I just dont know how anybody can make such a definite statement about his potential. He is already better or comparable to Butler, George, Kawhi, Hayward at age 21. Given that all those guys became all stars or better the statement thay Brown is bery unlikely to be that good seems obviously flawed
Now I agree that Brown is unlikely to be as good as Kawhi, but given thay Kawhi made that leap in a similar situation (hard worker, raw talent lacking skills, good coach, winning team) its not impossible.

 And he doesnt need to reach peak Kawhi for us to regret a deal. Maybe he is just a Paul George level, his is still younger. cheaper, healthier and for all those reasons it could end up a bad trade. Im not saying u dont do it, but we have to be award it could go bad.
hes also the same level of Michael Beasley and Jeff green during their 2nd seasons. 

The way you judge players is so weird. It's this fantasy basketball/empty stats approach that doesn't even consider defense. Besides, Beasley was on that very mediocre Miami team that we trashed 4-1 in the first round, while Green was on a team that finished 23-59. Again, things that you don't even think of considering, which causes you to overrate guys like Okafor and Noel, but underrate guys like Brown, who puts up numbers playing for one of the best teams in the NBA. What's even more odd is that, despite usually being wrong, you continue to follow this approach. I don't even have to look it up to know you were probably going nuts with rookie Tyreke Evans. Surely you had him pegged for the HOF and comparing his rookie numbers with Magic's, Big O's, Jordan's, etc.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Beat LA on June 17, 2018, 01:05:19 AM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: blink on June 17, 2018, 01:05:58 AM
Folks, we can't forget that Brown was the first or second option on a team that lost it's two best players...Ainge probably realizes that. Ainge contacts the Spurs at the deadline about Kawhi becuase he doesn't expect Tatum to play like a 10 yr vet in the playoffs.

Now when Kyrie and Hayward come back with Horford and Tatum, where is Brown on the food chain?? He's not getting more shots than 3 of the 4. However, we'll need someone to defend while Kyrie and Hayward can get buckets.

I don't mind keeping Brown but remember no one wanted to give up IT until Kyrie came available.
brown will be 4th option if everyone is healthy.  Maybe 6th man

Wait, 6th man?   How do you come to that opinion?  Unless we trade for Kawhi, Brown isn't coming off the bench.  He started the year with Kyrie, GH, Tatum and Horford.  Why on earth after such a great season would Brown suddenly become a 6th man?  That is crazy.

Brown is a top 3 defender on our team with Al and Smart.  He is our 2nd leading scorer during the regular season and basically tied for the leading scorer during the playoffs.  He is probably the best two way player on the team, and you want him as a 6th man?? hahahaha

Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: gouki88 on June 17, 2018, 01:07:50 AM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Beat LA on June 17, 2018, 01:15:52 AM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years

I'm just talking in terms of skills and style of play, and in going back and looking at some highlights from Richardson's career, Brown, at this point in time, looks like a clone of the former Michigan State Spartan :-\.

Whoever first made that comparison was right on. The much maligned nbadraft.net, I believe, had Jason Richardson/Jimmy Butler as Brown's player comp.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: LarBrd33 on June 17, 2018, 04:33:02 AM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala
I agree.  At this point he's not nearly as good as either of their peaks.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: LarBrd33 on June 17, 2018, 04:34:59 AM
Folks, we can't forget that Brown was the first or second option on a team that lost it's two best players...Ainge probably realizes that. Ainge contacts the Spurs at the deadline about Kawhi becuase he doesn't expect Tatum to play like a 10 yr vet in the playoffs.

Now when Kyrie and Hayward come back with Horford and Tatum, where is Brown on the food chain?? He's not getting more shots than 3 of the 4. However, we'll need someone to defend while Kyrie and Hayward can get buckets.

I don't mind keeping Brown but remember no one wanted to give up IT until Kyrie came available.
brown will be 4th option if everyone is healthy.  Maybe 6th man

Wait, 6th man?   How do you come to that opinion? 
If we were miraculously able to acquire Kawhi for Smart (sign and trade) + rozier + Yabu + picks - Brown ends up the 6th man behind Kyrie, Kawhi, Hayward, Tatum and Horford. 

More likely we ship him out in such a deal or keep him and he ends up our 4th option next season.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: LarBrd33 on June 17, 2018, 04:35:56 AM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: gouki88 on June 17, 2018, 05:04:07 AM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: LarBrd33 on June 17, 2018, 05:28:35 AM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal. 
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Sophomore on June 17, 2018, 05:50:02 AM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Agree that Kawhi’s injury is a major concern. I also think the Szcerbiak comp sells Brown short. This year, Brown routinely guarded the other team’s best scoring wing or off guard. He is already better than Szcerbiak ever was on that side of the ball, and barring injury there’s no reason to think he won’t get better, given his work ethic and time to develop physically. His floor (already achieved) is plus defender; his ceiling is all-NBA defender. 
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: LarBrd33 on June 17, 2018, 07:10:22 AM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Agree that Kawhi’s injury is a major concern. I also think the Szcerbiak comp sells Brown short. This year, Brown routinely guarded the other team’s best scoring wing or off guard. He is already better than Szcerbiak ever was on that side of the ball, and barring injury there’s no reason to think he won’t get better, given his work ethic and time to develop physically. His floor (already achieved) is plus defender; his ceiling is all-NBA defender.
I don't want to sell Szczerbiak short either.  He was an elite shooter and made an all-star team once.  I'm hopeful Jaylen can reach that level.  Peak Szczerbiak flirted with the 50/40/90 club, though, which is unlikely for Jaylen.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: gouki88 on June 17, 2018, 07:24:43 AM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Agree that Kawhi’s injury is a major concern. I also think the Szcerbiak comp sells Brown short. This year, Brown routinely guarded the other team’s best scoring wing or off guard. He is already better than Szcerbiak ever was on that side of the ball, and barring injury there’s no reason to think he won’t get better, given his work ethic and time to develop physically. His floor (already achieved) is plus defender; his ceiling is all-NBA defender.
I don't want to sell Szczerbiak short either.  He was an elite shooter and made an all-star team once.  I'm hopeful Jaylen can reach that level.  Peak Szczerbiak flirted with the 50/40/90 club, though, which is unlikely for Jaylen.
Why did you even compare them when they're such different players?

You consistently undersell, or even ignore, the defensive end when evaluating players, particularly JB. I don't get it
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Celtics4ever on June 17, 2018, 07:39:25 AM
Quote
I'm hopeful Jaylen can reach that level.  Peak Szczerbiak flirted with the 50/40/90 club, though, which is unlikely for Jaylen.

Shooting he will be hard to catch especially the 90 FT.   Other than that, I think Brown is better than Wally at D, rebounding and about every other aspect of the game.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on June 17, 2018, 08:11:07 AM
What if Leonard has peaked? What if, when he is on a team with other all-star players, he only averages 18, 6, and 2 with all-nba level defense? What if his athleticism is waning as fast as Gerald Wallace's did at the same age?

Cuz that is how I view Leonard moving forward. Brown is almost that already, and has another 6-10 years of peak athleticism and development to his game.

I'm bumping this because I haven't seen interaction with it.

I genuinely think Leonard has peaked. This is an ultimate sell-high moment for the Spurs. If they get a kings ransom and Leonard's athleticism falls off a cliff due to nagging injuries/age, that trade will go down as one of the best trades of the decade.

I think he will likely be closer to 18 points a game in his new system over the next 4-5 years. Here is my reasoning:
1. Waning athleticism combined with poor ball-handling that prohibits him from getting to his spaces on the court
2. Not playing in Pops system, which was tailored to Leonard's spots on the court. Remember when they switched a few years ago from the 4-out offense to playing through the mid-post? That was adjusting the offense to fit Leonard's game, but almost no other team runs that offense in the league. Can Leonard score at that high of a level with a normal NBA offense?
3. He peaked. This is not a player that has had multiple 25 ppg seasons. He had one season like that and one season at 21 ppg. What if he was closer to the 21 ppg than the 25 ppg scorer? That year his free throw rate spiked considerably, way higher than any other year in his career in the NBA or college. One of the first things to go when athleticism wanes is the ability to draw fouls.

Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: gouki88 on June 17, 2018, 08:24:53 AM
What if Leonard has peaked? What if, when he is on a team with other all-star players, he only averages 18, 6, and 2 with all-nba level defense? What if his athleticism is waning as fast as Gerald Wallace's did at the same age?

Cuz that is how I view Leonard moving forward. Brown is almost that already, and has another 6-10 years of peak athleticism and development to his game.

I'm bumping this because I haven't seen interaction with it.

I genuinely think Leonard has peaked. This is an ultimate sell-high moment for the Spurs. If they get a kings ransom and Leonard's athleticism falls off a cliff due to nagging injuries/age, that trade will go down as one of the best trades of the decade.

I think he will likely be closer to 18 points a game in his new system over the next 4-5 years. Here is my reasoning:
1. Waning athleticism combined with poor ball-handling that prohibits him from getting to his spaces on the court
2. Not playing in Pops system, which was tailored to Leonard's spots on the court. Remember when they switched a few years ago from the 4-out offense to playing through the mid-post? That was adjusting the offense to fit Leonard's game, but almost no other team runs that offense in the league. Can Leonard score at that high of a level with a normal NBA offense?
3. He peaked. This is not a player that has had multiple 25 ppg seasons. He had one season like that and one season at 21 ppg. What if he was closer to the 21 ppg than the 25 ppg scorer? That year his free throw rate spiked considerably, way higher than any other year in his career in the NBA or college. One of the first things to go when athleticism wanes is the ability to draw fouls.
I think this could be quite a legitimate concern. Obviously we won't know until he comes back, but it's not worth the risk when Brown was effectively an 18/5 guy with elite defence in the playoffs. Of course it's not quite the level that Leonard was (and might still be at) defensively, but that's a risk I'm willing to take. We were the best defensive team in the league starting a rookie and a sophomore.

The only real difference between Leonard (if he's peaked) and Brown is that ~20% free throw % differential. If Brown can make strides there along with his control of the ball attacking the ring, i.e. not getting blocked and fumbling a lot, then he's almost untouchable
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: JBcat on June 17, 2018, 08:30:06 AM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years

I'm just talking in terms of skills and style of play, and in going back and looking at some highlights from Richardson's career, Brown, at this point in time, looks like a clone of the former Michigan State Spartan :-\.

Whoever first made that comparison was right on. The much maligned nbadraft.net, I believe, had Jason Richardson/Jimmy Butler as Brown's player comp.

The more I think about it Richardson is a good combination of reasonable expectation and style of play with the hopes Brown can exceed him.  Richardson had 3 years scoring over 20 a game, and averaged 17.1 for his career.  Brown made a huge leap in his game this past year, and it will be interesting to see how much improvement he has left, or if he starts to level off.  I wish at this point Brown was in year 3 or 4 of his career as we would have a much clearer answer of who he is.  Maybe he surprises, and becomes something like Clyde Drexler. Ha

I think sometimes people, myself included, throw around the all star label loosely.  It’s very tough to become one of the best 10 wings in the game in any given year.  A fringe all star status with Brown would be fine.  When you start to think of names you can see how tough it can be.  His competition for all star status is his 2 fellow wings Hayward and Tatum, then you have Derozan, Simmons, James, Oladipo, Giannis, Beal, Harden, Durant, Thompson, McCollum, George, Leonard, Butler, and then you have other promising young wings Gordon, Wiggins, Mitchell, Ingram, Josh Jackson, and incoming top prospects the next couple years like Doncic, Porter JR, Reddish, and Barrett.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: cman88 on June 17, 2018, 09:31:17 AM
Do we really want a guy that cant handle playing for POP(who is one of the greatest coaches of all time) and the Spurs and wants to go to the Lakers?

Then theres the whole fact that he missed a whole season with injury.

Look at the PG13 situation. essentially OKC is going to have traded for a one year rental
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: hodgy03038 on June 17, 2018, 09:33:44 AM
Do we really want a guy that cant handle playing for POP(who is one of the greatest coaches of all time) and the Spurs and wants to go to the Lakers?

I can't trust Kawhi and the way he has handled everything this past season. Who knows how much or if he would even play. Too risky for a guy that is probably out the door at season's end. It has to be LBJ that has enticed him into this request. Stay away - far away.

Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: cman88 on June 17, 2018, 09:39:30 AM
Do we really want a guy that cant handle playing for POP(who is one of the greatest coaches of all time) and the Spurs and wants to go to the Lakers?

I can't trust Kawhi and the way he has handled everything this past season. Who knows how much or if he would even play. Too risky for a guy that is probably out the door at season's end. It has to be LBJ that has enticed him into this request. Stay away - far away.

Yeah, I didn't even think to imagine how he handled this season. not communicating with the spurs brass and essentially holding out all year. Its a red flag when you act this way towards an organization that is as renowned as the spurs.

Considering the grief people here gave Kyrie for missing game 7. They sure want to trade for a guy who didnt support his teammates one bit in the playoffs/throughout the season.

These lakers rumors are coming from one place...Kawhi himself and his group. Its to let other teams know not to trade for him because he will leave in a year...
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: ETNCeltics on June 17, 2018, 10:15:53 AM
What if Leonard has peaked? What if, when he is on a team with other all-star players, he only averages 18, 6, and 2 with all-nba level defense? What if his athleticism is waning as fast as Gerald Wallace's did at the same age?

Cuz that is how I view Leonard moving forward. Brown is almost that already, and has another 6-10 years of peak athleticism and development to his game.

I'm bumping this because I haven't seen interaction with it.

I genuinely think Leonard has peaked. This is an ultimate sell-high moment for the Spurs. If they get a kings ransom and Leonard's athleticism falls off a cliff due to nagging injuries/age, that trade will go down as one of the best trades of the decade.

I think he will likely be closer to 18 points a game in his new system over the next 4-5 years. Here is my reasoning:
1. Waning athleticism combined with poor ball-handling that prohibits him from getting to his spaces on the court
2. Not playing in Pops system, which was tailored to Leonard's spots on the court. Remember when they switched a few years ago from the 4-out offense to playing through the mid-post? That was adjusting the offense to fit Leonard's game, but almost no other team runs that offense in the league. Can Leonard score at that high of a level with a normal NBA offense?
3. He peaked. This is not a player that has had multiple 25 ppg seasons. He had one season like that and one season at 21 ppg. What if he was closer to the 21 ppg than the 25 ppg scorer? That year his free throw rate spiked considerably, way higher than any other year in his career in the NBA or college. One of the first things to go when athleticism wanes is the ability to draw fouls.
He may have peaked. As one of the best players in the NBA. He's the best defensive player in the league, and should have been MVP a year ago.

No one we bring in is going to score more than 20 or so a game as long as we have the depth we do now, so him averaging 18 a game may not be far off.

Trading for him would be a no-brainer, if we could be assured he'd re-up. But we can't be certain of that, so giving up anything of significance for him is a non-starter. Such a huge decision for this franchise can't be left in the hands of, reportedly, KL's uncle.

Ainge has to pass unless the deal is a non-Sac draft pick and Rozier, or thereabouts.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Eddie20 on June 17, 2018, 10:31:51 AM
Do we really want a guy that cant handle playing for POP(who is one of the greatest coaches of all time)

This isn't accurate at all. He "handled" playing for Pop just fine evidenced by his multiple all-star selections, multiple all-NBA team selections, multiple defensive player of the year awards, finishing 2nd in MVP voting in 15-16, and 3rd in MVP voting in 16-17.

The issues seem to be with the way Pop continually called him out in the media over his injury. That's what probably burned bridges and it has nothing to do with Pop the coach.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: gouki88 on June 17, 2018, 11:41:14 AM
Do we really want a guy that cant handle playing for POP(who is one of the greatest coaches of all time)

This isn't accurate at all. He "handled" playing for Pop just fine evidenced by his multiple all-star selections, multiple all-NBA team selections, multiple defensive player of the year awards, finishing 2nd in MVP voting in 15-16, and 3rd in MVP voting in 16-17.

The issues seem to be with the way Pop continually called him out in the media over his injury. That's what probably burned bridges and it has nothing to do with Pop the coach.
Yeah, plus Parker and Ginobili (particularly TP) have been acting like immature jerks. Poor examples of leadership, and further contributed to the burning of the bridge. They brought this upon themselves
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: droopdog7 on June 17, 2018, 12:02:40 PM
What if Leonard has peaked? What if, when he is on a team with other all-star players, he only averages 18, 6, and 2 with all-nba level defense? What if his athleticism is waning as fast as Gerald Wallace's did at the same age?

Cuz that is how I view Leonard moving forward. Brown is almost that already, and has another 6-10 years of peak athleticism and development to his game.

I'm bumping this because I haven't seen interaction with it.

I genuinely think Leonard has peaked. This is an ultimate sell-high moment for the Spurs. If they get a kings ransom and Leonard's athleticism falls off a cliff due to nagging injuries/age, that trade will go down as one of the best trades of the decade.

I think he will likely be closer to 18 points a game in his new system over the next 4-5 years. Here is my reasoning:
1. Waning athleticism combined with poor ball-handling that prohibits him from getting to his spaces on the court
2. Not playing in Pops system, which was tailored to Leonard's spots on the court. Remember when they switched a few years ago from the 4-out offense to playing through the mid-post? That was adjusting the offense to fit Leonard's game, but almost no other team runs that offense in the league. Can Leonard score at that high of a level with a normal NBA offense?
3. He peaked. This is not a player that has had multiple 25 ppg seasons. He had one season like that and one season at 21 ppg. What if he was closer to the 21 ppg than the 25 ppg scorer? That year his free throw rate spiked considerably, way higher than any other year in his career in the NBA or college. One of the first things to go when athleticism wanes is the ability to draw fouls.
I think this could be quite a legitimate concern. Obviously we won't know until he comes back, but it's not worth the risk when Brown was effectively an 18/5 guy with elite defence in the playoffs. Of course it's not quite the level that Leonard was (and might still be at) defensively, but that's a risk I'm willing to take. We were the best defensive team in the league starting a rookie and a sophomore.

The only real difference between Leonard (if he's peaked) and Brown is that ~20% free throw % differential. If Brown can make strides there along with his control of the ball attacking the ring, i.e. not getting blocked and fumbling a lot, then he's almost untouchable
Is this a joke?  We’re concerned because he peaked and MVP level player?  By that measure, Kevin Durant has peaked too. 

And can we stop measuring guys with numbers.  If you’re a star, you’re a star.  He’d command that kind of attention and make that kind of impact regardless.

And no, Jaylen isn’t anywhere near as good and I’d put it at 5-10% that he ever reaches that level (MVP level).  I know people hate the Jeff green comparison, and that’s understandable.  But I have another possibility for brown...Al Jefferson.  Not in their style of play obviously, but not every player becomes what people expect.  Al was good enough to be the centerpiece of the KG trade, and was of course, not a bad player.  Averaged 20-10 a time or two but never became a star.

Let’s stop using second year stats and some kind of superstar predictor.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: gouki88 on June 17, 2018, 12:14:24 PM
What if Leonard has peaked? What if, when he is on a team with other all-star players, he only averages 18, 6, and 2 with all-nba level defense? What if his athleticism is waning as fast as Gerald Wallace's did at the same age?

Cuz that is how I view Leonard moving forward. Brown is almost that already, and has another 6-10 years of peak athleticism and development to his game.

I'm bumping this because I haven't seen interaction with it.

I genuinely think Leonard has peaked. This is an ultimate sell-high moment for the Spurs. If they get a kings ransom and Leonard's athleticism falls off a cliff due to nagging injuries/age, that trade will go down as one of the best trades of the decade.

I think he will likely be closer to 18 points a game in his new system over the next 4-5 years. Here is my reasoning:
1. Waning athleticism combined with poor ball-handling that prohibits him from getting to his spaces on the court
2. Not playing in Pops system, which was tailored to Leonard's spots on the court. Remember when they switched a few years ago from the 4-out offense to playing through the mid-post? That was adjusting the offense to fit Leonard's game, but almost no other team runs that offense in the league. Can Leonard score at that high of a level with a normal NBA offense?
3. He peaked. This is not a player that has had multiple 25 ppg seasons. He had one season like that and one season at 21 ppg. What if he was closer to the 21 ppg than the 25 ppg scorer? That year his free throw rate spiked considerably, way higher than any other year in his career in the NBA or college. One of the first things to go when athleticism wanes is the ability to draw fouls.
I think this could be quite a legitimate concern. Obviously we won't know until he comes back, but it's not worth the risk when Brown was effectively an 18/5 guy with elite defence in the playoffs. Of course it's not quite the level that Leonard was (and might still be at) defensively, but that's a risk I'm willing to take. We were the best defensive team in the league starting a rookie and a sophomore.

The only real difference between Leonard (if he's peaked) and Brown is that ~20% free throw % differential. If Brown can make strides there along with his control of the ball attacking the ring, i.e. not getting blocked and fumbling a lot, then he's almost untouchable
Is this a joke?  We’re concerned because he peaked and MVP level player?  By that measure, Kevin Durant has peaked too. 

And can we stop measuring guys with numbers.  If you’re a star, you’re a star.  He’d command that kind of attention and make that kind of impact regardless.

And no, Jaylen isn’t anywhere near as good and I’d put it at 5-10% that he ever reaches that level (MVP level).  I know people hate the Jeff green comparison, and that’s understandable.  But I have another possibility for brown...Al Jefferson.  Not in their style of play obviously, but not every player becomes what people expect.  Al was good enough to be the centerpiece of the KG trade, and was of course, not a bad player.  Averaged 20-10 a time or two but never became a star.

Let’s stop using second year stats and some kind of superstar predictor.
The concern is that he will never return to his peak. That's a perfectly valid concern, especially for a guy who is potentially a 1 year rental and is a complete mystery at this stage.

I don't think anyone is making the case that JB will be like Kawhi. However, I think he can be a 16-20ppg scorer with elite defence, which this season indicated was almost a certainty
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: cman88 on June 17, 2018, 12:54:41 PM
Do we really want a guy that cant handle playing for POP(who is one of the greatest coaches of all time)

This isn't accurate at all. He "handled" playing for Pop just fine evidenced by his multiple all-star selections, multiple all-NBA team selections, multiple defensive player of the year awards, finishing 2nd in MVP voting in 15-16, and 3rd in MVP voting in 16-17.

The issues seem to be with the way Pop continually called him out in the media over his injury. That's what probably burned bridges and it has nothing to do with Pop the coach.

he sat out a whole season when he was healthy and kept his team in the dark because he didn't want to hurt his "value."

people on this board are upset with Kyrie just because he got Knee surgery.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: LarBrd33 on June 17, 2018, 01:19:32 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Agree that Kawhi’s injury is a major concern. I also think the Szcerbiak comp sells Brown short. This year, Brown routinely guarded the other team’s best scoring wing or off guard. He is already better than Szcerbiak ever was on that side of the ball, and barring injury there’s no reason to think he won’t get better, given his work ethic and time to develop physically. His floor (already achieved) is plus defender; his ceiling is all-NBA defender.
I don't want to sell Szczerbiak short either.  He was an elite shooter and made an all-star team once.  I'm hopeful Jaylen can reach that level.  Peak Szczerbiak flirted with the 50/40/90 club, though, which is unlikely for Jaylen.
Why did you even compare them when they're such different players?

You consistently undersell, or even ignore, the defensive end when evaluating players, particularly JB. I don't get it
yeah brown was ok defensively. I agree it’s not fair to compare them.  Jaylen has a long way to go until he is close to what peak Wally Szczerbiak was on offense and it’s super unlikely he ever shoots that well.  I think the reason people say his ceiling is Szczerbiak is mainly because it’s another good example (along with j rich) of a fringe star and that’s likely what Jaylen will become.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Beat LA on June 17, 2018, 03:15:32 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Beat LA on June 17, 2018, 03:20:48 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years

I'm just talking in terms of skills and style of play, and in going back and looking at some highlights from Richardson's career, Brown, at this point in time, looks like a clone of the former Michigan State Spartan :-\.

Whoever first made that comparison was right on. The much maligned nbadraft.net, I believe, had Jason Richardson/Jimmy Butler as Brown's player comp.

The more I think about it Richardson is a good combination of reasonable expectation and style of play with the hopes Brown can exceed him.  Richardson had 3 years scoring over 20 a game, and averaged 17.1 for his career.  Brown made a huge leap in his game this past year, and it will be interesting to see how much improvement he has left, or if he starts to level off.  I wish at this point Brown was in year 3 or 4 of his career as we would have a much clearer answer of who he is.  Maybe he surprises, and becomes something like Clyde Drexler. Ha

I think sometimes people, myself included, throw around the all star label loosely.  It’s very tough to become one of the best 10 wings in the game in any given year.  A fringe all star status with Brown would be fine.  When you start to think of names you can see how tough it can be.  His competition for all star status is his 2 fellow wings Hayward and Tatum, then you have Derozan, Simmons, James, Oladipo, Giannis, Beal, Harden, Durant, Thompson, McCollum, George, Leonard, Butler, and then you have other promising young wings Gordon, Wiggins, Mitchell, Ingram, Josh Jackson, and incoming top prospects the next couple years like Doncic, Porter JR, Reddish, and Barrett.

Well, on this plus side, and while his ball handling obviously still needs work, at least he isn't looking down when he dribbles, haha (not that I could do any better, of course. I was just comparing him to Drexler in this regard).

Unfortunately, Brown is nowhere near Clyde in terms of passing, though, so yeah :-\.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: LarBrd33 on June 17, 2018, 04:32:55 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak. 

Reddit opinions can differ wildly.  Most recently I’ve seen Jaylen compared to Shane Battier.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: keevsnick on June 17, 2018, 04:44:27 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison





Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: ETNCeltics on June 17, 2018, 04:54:18 PM
Hard to believe so many would throw away Brown for one year of a guy who has clearly stated he wants to go to LA. Beyond foolish.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: LarBrd33 on June 17, 2018, 04:58:15 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: SHAQATTACK on June 17, 2018, 05:05:15 PM
Hard to believe so many would throw away Brown for one year of a guy who has clearly stated he wants to go to LA. Beyond foolish.

This is why I mostly doubt Danny will sign off on the deal.  Where Irving had a few years ,   I think he ll want some commitment from Kawhi .

Which Im highly doubtful will happen.   The resultI don't I see Spurs owners rebuilding Lakers  and being stomped by them for years to come..  They take the best offer NOT associated with Lakers .   

incredibly unless Lakers are allowed to over pay ....which they would in a heart beat ,  I doubtful Kawhi brings the Kings ransome  people here think he will ......only he Lakers , New York will  ober pay.

Also by NOT trad g him to Lakers , this kinda  screws with Lebrons mind a bit , and may e even Georges .

Spurs should send him East to Knicks for all they can get .
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Phantom255x on June 17, 2018, 05:07:00 PM
Hard to believe so many would throw away Brown for one year of a guy who has clearly stated he wants to go to LA. Beyond foolish.

This is why I mostly doubt Danny will sign off on the deal.  Where Irving had a few years ,   I think he ll want some commitment from Kawhi .

Which Im highly doubtful will happen.   The result is NO I see Spurs owners rebuilding Lakers .  They take the best offer NOT associated with Lakers .   

incredibly unless Lakers are allowed to over pay ....which they would in a heart beat ,  I doubtful Kawhi brings the Kings ransome he wants.

Also by NOT trad g him to Lakers , this kinda  screws with Lebrons mind a bit , and may e even Georges .

Spurs should send him East to Knicks for all they can get .

How about Milwaukee for Middleton + Parker + 2018 Bucks First Rounder?

Or instead of Parker, put Maker/Brogdon in.

Makes sense for all sides IMHO. According to Woj, he doesn't want to be the alpha of a team that has to deal with a ton of pressure all around (media, in-game, etc.)

He could get that with MIL, and a duo of Leonard/Giannis is a problem for a lot of folks (including the C's though the C's are deeper).

Even if he's a rental, MIL might be a bit desperate to add legitimate star-power to their team since they are kind of just stuck with what they have now, and it can keep Giannis happy going forward.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: SHAQATTACK on June 17, 2018, 05:11:37 PM
Hard to believe so many would throw away Brown for one year of a guy who has clearly stated he wants to go to LA. Beyond foolish.

This is why I mostly doubt Danny will sign off on the deal.  Where Irving had a few years ,   I think he ll want some commitment from Kawhi .

Which Im highly doubtful will happen.   The result is NO I see Spurs owners rebuilding Lakers .  They take the best offer NOT associated with Lakers .   

incredibly unless Lakers are allowed to over pay ....which they would in a heart beat ,  I doubtful Kawhi brings the Kings ransome he wants.

Also by NOT trad g him to Lakers , this kinda  screws with Lebrons mind a bit , and may e even Georges .

Spurs should send him East to Knicks for all they can get .

How about Milwaukee for Middleton + Parker + 2018 Bucks First Rounder?

Or instead of Parker, put Maker/Brogdon in.

Makes sense for all sides IMHO.


Thats fine .....ANYWaY t keep him off the SAME team as Lebron .  Lebron wants and can build his own version f GS at Lakers ......Lakers have the money and will let him have his way 100 % .   

Lebron will recruit the best stars he can for his new Lakers Bron Club .


Kawhi going anywhere and PG staying in OKC ....would be a huge blow to James and Lakers fans

For me basically at this point unless Houston gets James ,  James is a Laker .

Houston will be dang lucky to keep CP3 off a James led Lakers club
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Eddie20 on June 17, 2018, 05:15:53 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: LarBrd33 on June 17, 2018, 06:04:54 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
im just relaying what others have said Jaylen’s ceiling is.  Personally I think more realistically his ceiling is poor man’s Dario Saric.

JK

The point is whether you see his ceiling as battier, j-rich, rudy gay, Wally or corey maggette (another name I commonly seen thrown around), there’s been countless quality players like jaylen who peaked out as fringe stars.  All those guys averaged 20+ points in their peak and generally fell short of making allstar teams. Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy. He’s shown progress but let’s not get ahead of ourselves in pretending a guy who averaged 14 points at age 21 is a guaranteed mvp candidate.  Usually superstars are already performing as superstar at that age.  He’s a quality starter right now and that’s it.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Monkhouse on June 17, 2018, 06:06:31 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
im just relaying what others have said Jaylen’s ceiling is.  Personally I think more realistically his ceiling is poor man’s Dario Saric.

Dude, that's bad. Even for you... Come on...

Unbelievable.

EDIT: LaBrd33 with the quick jk edit.

There is some comprehensive evidence that Jaylen can become Kawhi Leonard in that he's a solid defender, and shoots the 3 ball well extremely well. He's also I think more athletically explosive.

Minus the enormous wingspan, and stout defense+gigantic shaq-like hands, Jaylen and Kawhi both share similar question marks coming into the NBA draft.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: LarBrd33 on June 17, 2018, 06:15:14 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
im just relaying what others have said Jaylen’s ceiling is.  Personally I think more realistically his ceiling is poor man’s Dario Saric.

Dude, that's bad. Even for you... Come on...

Unbelievable.
my bad.  My stupid phone autocorrected “Dario Saric” as “Dario Saric”.

[dang it], it did it again.  Why the hell cant I type Timothe Luwawu-Cabarrot on this thing?

>> Sent From My Sixer Flip - Buy your own 76ers fan flip phone at 76ers.com <<
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Eddie20 on June 17, 2018, 06:25:32 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: LarBrd33 on June 17, 2018, 06:32:11 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

That would make Dario Saric their 5th option. Wow!
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Phantom255x on June 17, 2018, 06:38:25 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

You really think the Spurs, after dealing with all they did with Leonard this season, would take back Fultz as a primary piece? The same Fultz that apparently had to change his entire shooting form and was injured virtually the entire season. Wow lol. Just wow. Fultz might be an elite prospect but RIGHT NOW, his trade value is not that high. He can be a piece in a trade but if he's the primary piece, then good luck. PHI would certainly have to add Saric to that and probably another pick.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: keevsnick on June 17, 2018, 06:39:42 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
im just relaying what others have said Jaylen’s ceiling is.  Personally I think more realistically his ceiling is poor man’s Dario Saric.

JK

The point is whether you see his ceiling as battier, j-rich, rudy gay, Wally or corey maggette (another name I commonly seen thrown around), there’s been countless quality players like jaylen who peaked out as fringe stars.  All those guys averaged 20+ points in their peak and generally fell short of making allstar teams. Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy. He’s shown progress but let’s not get ahead of ourselves in pretending a guy who averaged 14 points at age 21 is a guaranteed mvp candidate.  Usually superstars are already performing as superstar at that age.  He’s a quality starter right now and that’s it.

The thing is man those guys arent his ceiling, they are the floor. Guys who have a similar season to Jaylen at a similar age very rarely end up as anything less than the "Fringe Star" level you describe. Maggete at 21 average 10 points a game. Richardson had a similar season on a 21 win team (that tends to inflate scoring). Szerbiak was 23 when he average 14 points a game. Even Jeff Green had the bad luck to literally require heart surgery. Otto porter didnt average 14 till this last year. Harrison barnes took till his 5th age 24 season to hit 19. So ya, Jaylen season was arguably more impressive or at a younger age than any of those guys, that would tend to indicate hes gonna be AT LEAST that good. Thats typically how the age/ improvement curve works. Now I agree he likely wont reach Kawhi levels but
history would seem to indicate thats his absolute ceilinbg while Rudy Gay (or Richardson, ie that level) is the floor. Again, he compares favorably with Hayward, George at his age. So I dont think solid all star fringe all nba is an unreasonable middle ish outcome.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: LarBrd33 on June 17, 2018, 06:42:19 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

You really think the Spurs, after dealing with all they did with Leonard this season, would take back Fultz as a primary piece? The same Fultz that apparently had to change his entire shooting form and was injured virtually the entire season. Wow lol. Just wow. Fultz might be an elite prospect but RIGHT NOW, his trade value is not that high. He can be a piece in a trade but if he's the primary piece, then good luck. PHI would certainly have to add Saric to that and probably another pick.
Philly can’t give up a superstar prospect like Fultz without getting assurance kawhi will re-sign, but yeah that seems to be the offer to beat.   
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: LarBrd33 on June 17, 2018, 06:44:12 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
im just relaying what others have said Jaylen’s ceiling is.  Personally I think more realistically his ceiling is poor man’s Dario Saric.

JK

The point is whether you see his ceiling as battier, j-rich, rudy gay, Wally or corey maggette (another name I commonly seen thrown around), there’s been countless quality players like jaylen who peaked out as fringe stars.  All those guys averaged 20+ points in their peak and generally fell short of making allstar teams. Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy. He’s shown progress but let’s not get ahead of ourselves in pretending a guy who averaged 14 points at age 21 is a guaranteed mvp candidate.  Usually superstars are already performing as superstar at that age.  He’s a quality starter right now and that’s it.

The thing is man those guys arent his ceiling, they are the floor. Guys who have a similar season to Jaylen at a similar age very rarely end up as anything less than the "Fringe Star" level you describe. Maggete at 21 average 10 points a game. Richardson had a similar season on a 21 win team (that tends to inflate scoring). Szerbiak was 23 when he average 14 points a game. Even Jeff Green had the bad luck to literally require heart surgery. Otto porter didnt average 14 till this last year. Harrison barnes took till his 5th age 24 season to hit 19. So ya, Jaylen season was arguably more impressive or at a younger age than any of those guys, that would tend to indicate hes gonna be AT LEAST that good. Thats typically how the age/ improvement curve works. Now I agree he likely wont reach Kawhi levels but
history would seem to indicate thats his absolute ceilinbg while Rudy Gay (or Richardson, ie that level) is the floor. Again, he compares favorably with Hayward, George at his age. So I dont think solid all star fringe all nba is an unreasonable middle ish outcome.

his floor is 12-15 point scorer with a limited offensive game, solid defense, and poor free throw shooting.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Eddie20 on June 17, 2018, 06:46:09 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

You know just because you keep repeating that isn't going to make it true.

Where does Fultz even go in a re-draft? Value has plummeted badly in the last 12 months. Not only can he not shoot (which is a major problem in today's game), but the guy is petrified to take a perimeter shot. One more bad season, which I wouldn't rule out, and where is his value then?

These guys get drafted ahead of Fultz:
Tatum
Mitchell
Ball
Markannen
Jackson
Fox
Smith
Kuzma
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Phantom255x on June 17, 2018, 06:46:36 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

You really think the Spurs, after dealing with all they did with Leonard this season, would take back Fultz as a primary piece? The same Fultz that apparently had to change his entire shooting form and was injured virtually the entire season. Wow lol. Just wow. Fultz might be an elite prospect but RIGHT NOW, his trade value is not that high. He can be a piece in a trade but if he's the primary piece, then good luck. PHI would certainly have to add Saric to that and probably another pick.
Philly can’t give up a superstar prospect like Fultz without getting assurance kawhi will re-sign, but yeah that seems to be the offer to beat.

Wow..

(https://media.giphy.com/media/mQtpIk4Q2WGas/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Eddie20 on June 17, 2018, 06:49:15 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

You really think the Spurs, after dealing with all they did with Leonard this season, would take back Fultz as a primary piece? The same Fultz that apparently had to change his entire shooting form and was injured virtually the entire season. Wow lol. Just wow. Fultz might be an elite prospect but RIGHT NOW, his trade value is not that high. He can be a piece in a trade but if he's the primary piece, then good luck. PHI would certainly have to add Saric to that and probably another pick.
Philly can’t give up a superstar prospect like Fultz without getting assurance kawhi will re-sign, but yeah that seems to be the offer to beat.

You can do a better job getting a rise out of people without having them question if you even watch basketball.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: LarBrd33 on June 17, 2018, 06:51:58 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

You really think the Spurs, after dealing with all they did with Leonard this season, would take back Fultz as a primary piece? The same Fultz that apparently had to change his entire shooting form and was injured virtually the entire season. Wow lol. Just wow. Fultz might be an elite prospect but RIGHT NOW, his trade value is not that high. He can be a piece in a trade but if he's the primary piece, then good luck. PHI would certainly have to add Saric to that and probably another pick.
Philly can’t give up a superstar prospect like Fultz without getting assurance kawhi will re-sign, but yeah that seems to be the offer to beat.

Wow..

(https://media.giphy.com/media/mQtpIk4Q2WGas/giphy.gif)
reminds me of when the majority of this forum said they wouldn’t give up a 2nd rounder for Embiid. This isn’t really a place for taking the long view.

My cat is like this.  If there isn’t any food in her bowl she thinks she’s going to starve to death. Every night before dinner time she looks at me with her puppy dog eyes like I’m letting her die.  It’s like, dude calm down - food will be in that bowl soon.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Phantom255x on June 17, 2018, 06:54:39 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

You really think the Spurs, after dealing with all they did with Leonard this season, would take back Fultz as a primary piece? The same Fultz that apparently had to change his entire shooting form and was injured virtually the entire season. Wow lol. Just wow. Fultz might be an elite prospect but RIGHT NOW, his trade value is not that high. He can be a piece in a trade but if he's the primary piece, then good luck. PHI would certainly have to add Saric to that and probably another pick.
Philly can’t give up a superstar prospect like Fultz without getting assurance kawhi will re-sign, but yeah that seems to be the offer to beat.

Wow..

(https://media.giphy.com/media/mQtpIk4Q2WGas/giphy.gif)
reminds me of when the majority of this forum said they wouldn’t give up a 2nd rounder for Embiid. This isn’t really a place for taking the long view.

I mean, I for sure never said that, but good grief find you a friend who credits and defends you about everything like LarBrd does the Sixers  :P :laugh:
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Monkhouse on June 17, 2018, 06:54:51 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

You really think the Spurs, after dealing with all they did with Leonard this season, would take back Fultz as a primary piece? The same Fultz that apparently had to change his entire shooting form and was injured virtually the entire season. Wow lol. Just wow. Fultz might be an elite prospect but RIGHT NOW, his trade value is not that high. He can be a piece in a trade but if he's the primary piece, then good luck. PHI would certainly have to add Saric to that and probably another pick.
Philly can’t give up a superstar prospect like Fultz without getting assurance kawhi will re-sign, but yeah that seems to be the offer to beat.

Wow..

(https://media.giphy.com/media/mQtpIk4Q2WGas/giphy.gif)
reminds me of when the majority of this forum said they wouldn’t give up a 2nd rounder for Embiid. This isn’t really a place for taking the long view.

That just isn't true... And even if people said that, it was probably in jest... Even if Embiid never plays up to his potential, chances are he will outplay any 2nd rounder generally.

Stop making up lies.

Like dude, I don't get what your angle or point is... Why are you so infatuated with the 76ers?

We just beat them 4-1 with Hayward and Kyrie out... Why do you seriously think they are that much of a threat unless they sign LeBron, or acquire PG-13/Kawhi? And none of those options are a foregone conclusion.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Eddie20 on June 17, 2018, 06:57:12 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

You really think the Spurs, after dealing with all they did with Leonard this season, would take back Fultz as a primary piece? The same Fultz that apparently had to change his entire shooting form and was injured virtually the entire season. Wow lol. Just wow. Fultz might be an elite prospect but RIGHT NOW, his trade value is not that high. He can be a piece in a trade but if he's the primary piece, then good luck. PHI would certainly have to add Saric to that and probably another pick.
Philly can’t give up a superstar prospect like Fultz without getting assurance kawhi will re-sign, but yeah that seems to be the offer to beat.

Wow..

(https://media.giphy.com/media/mQtpIk4Q2WGas/giphy.gif)
reminds me of when the majority of this forumsaid they wouldn’t give up a 2nd rounder for Embiid. This isn’t really a place for taking the long view.

Since this is flat-out lie, can you please find me the thread where the MAJORITY of this forum said that? I'm not referring to a couple of guys exaggerating either. I'm talking specifically how you described it.

You're obviously not going to look it up because it's a lie. In fact, I expect you to ignore this request because you're lying.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: LarBrd33 on June 17, 2018, 06:58:33 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

You really think the Spurs, after dealing with all they did with Leonard this season, would take back Fultz as a primary piece? The same Fultz that apparently had to change his entire shooting form and was injured virtually the entire season. Wow lol. Just wow. Fultz might be an elite prospect but RIGHT NOW, his trade value is not that high. He can be a piece in a trade but if he's the primary piece, then good luck. PHI would certainly have to add Saric to that and probably another pick.
Philly can’t give up a superstar prospect like Fultz without getting assurance kawhi will re-sign, but yeah that seems to be the offer to beat.

Wow..

(https://media.giphy.com/media/mQtpIk4Q2WGas/giphy.gif)
reminds me of when the majority of this forum said they wouldn’t give up a 2nd rounder for Embiid. This isn’t really a place for taking the long view.

That just isn't true... And even if people said that, it was probably in jest... Even if Embiid never plays up to his potential, chances are he will outplay any 2nd rounder generally.

ill chalk it up to “jest” when those same fans act like the youngest player in nba history to achieve a triple double isn’t adequate return for Kawhi Leonard.  That’s Philly’s trade to turn down.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: CelticsQuestFor18 on June 17, 2018, 07:00:24 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

You really think the Spurs, after dealing with all they did with Leonard this season, would take back Fultz as a primary piece? The same Fultz that apparently had to change his entire shooting form and was injured virtually the entire season. Wow lol. Just wow. Fultz might be an elite prospect but RIGHT NOW, his trade value is not that high. He can be a piece in a trade but if he's the primary piece, then good luck. PHI would certainly have to add Saric to that and probably another pick.
Philly can’t give up a superstar prospect like Fultz without getting assurance kawhi will re-sign, but yeah that seems to be the offer to beat.

Wow..

(https://media.giphy.com/media/mQtpIk4Q2WGas/giphy.gif)
reminds me of when the majority of this forum said they wouldn’t give up a 2nd rounder for Embiid. This isn’t really a place for taking the long view.

I mean, I for sure never said that, but good grief find you a friend who credits and defends you about everything like LarBrd does the Sixers  :P :laugh:

LOL
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Eddie20 on June 17, 2018, 07:00:58 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

You really think the Spurs, after dealing with all they did with Leonard this season, would take back Fultz as a primary piece? The same Fultz that apparently had to change his entire shooting form and was injured virtually the entire season. Wow lol. Just wow. Fultz might be an elite prospect but RIGHT NOW, his trade value is not that high. He can be a piece in a trade but if he's the primary piece, then good luck. PHI would certainly have to add Saric to that and probably another pick.
Philly can’t give up a superstar prospect like Fultz without getting assurance kawhi will re-sign, but yeah that seems to be the offer to beat.

Wow..

(https://media.giphy.com/media/mQtpIk4Q2WGas/giphy.gif)
reminds me of when the majority of this forum said they wouldn’t give up a 2nd rounder for Embiid. This isn’t really a place for taking the long view.

That just isn't true... And even if people said that, it was probably in jest... Even if Embiid never plays up to his potential, chances are he will outplay any 2nd rounder generally.

Stop making up lies.

Like dude, I don't get what your angle or point is... Why are you so infatuated with the 76ers?

We just beat them 4-1 with Hayward and Kyrie out... Why do you seriously think they are that much of a threat unless they sign LeBron, or acquire PG-13/Kawhi? And none of those options are a foregone conclusion.
ill chalk it up to “jest” when those same fans act like the youngest player in nba history to achieve a triple double isn’t adequate return for Kawhi Leonard.  That’s Philly’s trade to turn down.

Forget that, I want to see these "jest" comments for myself. LarBrd, one thing is for you to overhype the Sixers, but now you're stooping really low by lying. Besides, not only are you lying, but you're basically ridiculing the collective basketball IQ of this forum.

So PLEASE either find post the link to the thread or just admit you made it up.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: keevsnick on June 17, 2018, 07:02:33 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
im just relaying what others have said Jaylen’s ceiling is.  Personally I think more realistically his ceiling is poor man’s Dario Saric.

JK

The point is whether you see his ceiling as battier, j-rich, rudy gay, Wally or corey maggette (another name I commonly seen thrown around), there’s been countless quality players like jaylen who peaked out as fringe stars.  All those guys averaged 20+ points in their peak and generally fell short of making allstar teams. Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy. He’s shown progress but let’s not get ahead of ourselves in pretending a guy who averaged 14 points at age 21 is a guaranteed mvp candidate.  Usually superstars are already performing as superstar at that age.  He’s a quality starter right now and that’s it.

The thing is man those guys arent his ceiling, they are the floor. Guys who have a similar season to Jaylen at a similar age very rarely end up as anything less than the "Fringe Star" level you describe. Maggete at 21 average 10 points a game. Richardson had a similar season on a 21 win team (that tends to inflate scoring). Szerbiak was 23 when he average 14 points a game. Even Jeff Green had the bad luck to literally require heart surgery. Otto porter didnt average 14 till this last year. Harrison barnes took till his 5th age 24 season to hit 19. So ya, Jaylen season was arguably more impressive or at a younger age than any of those guys, that would tend to indicate hes gonna be AT LEAST that good. Thats typically how the age/ improvement curve works. Now I agree he likely wont reach Kawhi levels but
history would seem to indicate thats his absolute ceilinbg while Rudy Gay (or Richardson, ie that level) is the floor. Again, he compares favorably with Hayward, George at his age. So I dont think solid all star fringe all nba is an unreasonable middle ish outcome.

his floor is 12-15 point scorer with a limited offensive game, solid defense, and poor free throw shooting.

I assume what you are doing here is stating what Jaylen was this year and saying thats his floor. I would argue first of all with your description since being a top 2 option offensively scoring 18 points a game in a playoff run is not "limited" and getting all nba defense votes is not just "solud". But besides the fact you are very wrong about what Jaylen is right now you are also ignoring that he is almost overwheñumg likely to improve past age 21, becuase almost all young players do. So I guess we are just gonna have to wait and see.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Monkhouse on June 17, 2018, 07:04:08 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

You really think the Spurs, after dealing with all they did with Leonard this season, would take back Fultz as a primary piece? The same Fultz that apparently had to change his entire shooting form and was injured virtually the entire season. Wow lol. Just wow. Fultz might be an elite prospect but RIGHT NOW, his trade value is not that high. He can be a piece in a trade but if he's the primary piece, then good luck. PHI would certainly have to add Saric to that and probably another pick.
Philly can’t give up a superstar prospect like Fultz without getting assurance kawhi will re-sign, but yeah that seems to be the offer to beat.

Wow..

(https://media.giphy.com/media/mQtpIk4Q2WGas/giphy.gif)
reminds me of when the majority of this forum said they wouldn’t give up a 2nd rounder for Embiid. This isn’t really a place for taking the long view.

That just isn't true... And even if people said that, it was probably in jest... Even if Embiid never plays up to his potential, chances are he will outplay any 2nd rounder generally.

Stop making up lies.

Like dude, I don't get what your angle or point is... Why are you so infatuated with the 76ers?

We just beat them 4-1 with Hayward and Kyrie out... Why do you seriously think they are that much of a threat unless they sign LeBron, or acquire PG-13/Kawhi? And none of those options are a foregone conclusion.
ill chalk it up to “jest” when those same fans act like the youngest player in nba history to achieve a triple double isn’t adequate return for Kawhi Leonard.  That’s Philly’s trade to turn down.

Might be one of the most overrated statistics people use to determine 'success.' Yeah sure, it's very impressive and hard feat to pull off, but who really cares? Fultz has extremely low value. No one is going to give him a top 10 pick let alone Kawhi freakin' Leonard..
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: gouki88 on June 17, 2018, 07:05:53 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

You really think the Spurs, after dealing with all they did with Leonard this season, would take back Fultz as a primary piece? The same Fultz that apparently had to change his entire shooting form and was injured virtually the entire season. Wow lol. Just wow. Fultz might be an elite prospect but RIGHT NOW, his trade value is not that high. He can be a piece in a trade but if he's the primary piece, then good luck. PHI would certainly have to add Saric to that and probably another pick.
Philly can’t give up a superstar prospect like Fultz without getting assurance kawhi will re-sign, but yeah that seems to be the offer to beat.

Wow..

(https://media.giphy.com/media/mQtpIk4Q2WGas/giphy.gif)
reminds me of when the majority of this forumsaid they wouldn’t give up a 2nd rounder for Embiid. This isn’t really a place for taking the long view.

Since this is flat-out lie, can you please find me the thread where the MAJORITY of this forum said that? I'm not referring to a couple of guys exaggerating either. I'm talking specifically how you described it.

You're obviously not going to look it up because it's a lie. In fact, I expect you to ignore this request because you're lying.
I would definitely not hold your breath here
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: LarBrd33 on June 17, 2018, 07:10:02 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

You really think the Spurs, after dealing with all they did with Leonard this season, would take back Fultz as a primary piece? The same Fultz that apparently had to change his entire shooting form and was injured virtually the entire season. Wow lol. Just wow. Fultz might be an elite prospect but RIGHT NOW, his trade value is not that high. He can be a piece in a trade but if he's the primary piece, then good luck. PHI would certainly have to add Saric to that and probably another pick.
Philly can’t give up a superstar prospect like Fultz without getting assurance kawhi will re-sign, but yeah that seems to be the offer to beat.

Wow..

(https://media.giphy.com/media/mQtpIk4Q2WGas/giphy.gif)
reminds me of when the majority of this forum said they wouldn’t give up a 2nd rounder for Embiid. This isn’t really a place for taking the long view.

That just isn't true... And even if people said that, it was probably in jest... Even if Embiid never plays up to his potential, chances are he will outplay any 2nd rounder generally.

Stop making up lies.

Like dude, I don't get what your angle or point is... Why are you so infatuated with the 76ers?

We just beat them 4-1 with Hayward and Kyrie out... Why do you seriously think they are that much of a threat unless they sign LeBron, or acquire PG-13/Kawhi? And none of those options are a foregone conclusion.
ill chalk it up to “jest” when those same fans act like the youngest player in nba history to achieve a triple double isn’t adequate return for Kawhi Leonard.  That’s Philly’s trade to turn down.

Forget that, I want to see these "jest" comments for myself. LarBrd, one thing is for you to overhype the Sixers, but now you're stooping really low by lying. Besides, not only are you lying, but you're basically ridiculing the collective basketball IQ of this forum.

So PLEASE either find post the link to the thread or just admit you made it up.
i don’t believe in the whole “dig up old comments to humiliate individuals”... that’s the kind of sick stuff the leftovers of this forum participate in.  It’s not important. You called me a sixer fan for relaying that several fans around the league think brown has a ceiling of a fringe star.  Calling me a sixer fan had absolutely nothing to do with what I was taking about.  That’s just the type of instigatey nonsense that caused this forum to lose a gem like LarBrd33 in the first place.  Traditionally, you only feel alive when you are calling me a Sixer fan. I played along and joked his ceiling was Dario Saric.  That should be enough for you Eddie.   You’re welcome.

Now, if you have something of value to add to the discussion of whether it makes sense to gamble on kawhi at the expense or someone who has a realistic ceiling of someone on the level of j-rich/Sczerbiak, we can get back on topic.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Monkhouse on June 17, 2018, 07:20:21 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

You really think the Spurs, after dealing with all they did with Leonard this season, would take back Fultz as a primary piece? The same Fultz that apparently had to change his entire shooting form and was injured virtually the entire season. Wow lol. Just wow. Fultz might be an elite prospect but RIGHT NOW, his trade value is not that high. He can be a piece in a trade but if he's the primary piece, then good luck. PHI would certainly have to add Saric to that and probably another pick.
Philly can’t give up a superstar prospect like Fultz without getting assurance kawhi will re-sign, but yeah that seems to be the offer to beat.

Wow..

(https://media.giphy.com/media/mQtpIk4Q2WGas/giphy.gif)
reminds me of when the majority of this forum said they wouldn’t give up a 2nd rounder for Embiid. This isn’t really a place for taking the long view.

That just isn't true... And even if people said that, it was probably in jest... Even if Embiid never plays up to his potential, chances are he will outplay any 2nd rounder generally.

Stop making up lies.

Like dude, I don't get what your angle or point is... Why are you so infatuated with the 76ers?

We just beat them 4-1 with Hayward and Kyrie out... Why do you seriously think they are that much of a threat unless they sign LeBron, or acquire PG-13/Kawhi? And none of those options are a foregone conclusion.
ill chalk it up to “jest” when those same fans act like the youngest player in nba history to achieve a triple double isn’t adequate return for Kawhi Leonard.  That’s Philly’s trade to turn down.

Forget that, I want to see these "jest" comments for myself. LarBrd, one thing is for you to overhype the Sixers, but now you're stooping really low by lying. Besides, not only are you lying, but you're basically ridiculing the collective basketball IQ of this forum.

So PLEASE either find post the link to the thread or just admit you made it up.
i don’t believe in the whole “dig up old comments to humiliate individuals”... that’s the kind of sick stuff the leftovers of this forum participate in.  It’s not important. You called me a sixer fan for relaying that several fans around the league think brown has a ceiling of a fringe star.  Calling me a sixer fan had absolutely nothing to do with what I was taking about.  That’s just the type of instigatey nonsense that caused this forum to lose a gem like LarBrd33 in the first place.  Traditionally, you only feel alive when you are calling me a Sixer fan. I played along and joked his ceiling was Dario Saric.  That should be enough for you Eddie.   You’re welcome.

Now, if you have something of value to add to the discussion of whether it makes sense to gamble on kawhi at the expense or someone who has a realistic ceiling of j-rich/Sczerbiak, we can get back on topic.

Serious questions I want to ask you LarBrd33.

Who do you think has more value, Fultz or Jaylen Brown? Who do you think will become the better player, and why do you think the Spurs would even be interested in Fultz anyways?
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Eddie20 on June 17, 2018, 07:22:07 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

You really think the Spurs, after dealing with all they did with Leonard this season, would take back Fultz as a primary piece? The same Fultz that apparently had to change his entire shooting form and was injured virtually the entire season. Wow lol. Just wow. Fultz might be an elite prospect but RIGHT NOW, his trade value is not that high. He can be a piece in a trade but if he's the primary piece, then good luck. PHI would certainly have to add Saric to that and probably another pick.
Philly can’t give up a superstar prospect like Fultz without getting assurance kawhi will re-sign, but yeah that seems to be the offer to beat.

Wow..

(https://media.giphy.com/media/mQtpIk4Q2WGas/giphy.gif)
reminds me of when the majority of this forum said they wouldn’t give up a 2nd rounder for Embiid. This isn’t really a place for taking the long view.

That just isn't true... And even if people said that, it was probably in jest... Even if Embiid never plays up to his potential, chances are he will outplay any 2nd rounder generally.

Stop making up lies.

Like dude, I don't get what your angle or point is... Why are you so infatuated with the 76ers?

We just beat them 4-1 with Hayward and Kyrie out... Why do you seriously think they are that much of a threat unless they sign LeBron, or acquire PG-13/Kawhi? And none of those options are a foregone conclusion.
ill chalk it up to “jest” when those same fans act like the youngest player in nba history to achieve a triple double isn’t adequate return for Kawhi Leonard.  That’s Philly’s trade to turn down.

Forget that, I want to see these "jest" comments for myself. LarBrd, one thing is for you to overhype the Sixers, but now you're stooping really low by lying. Besides, not only are you lying, but you're basically ridiculing the collective basketball IQ of this forum.

So PLEASE either find post the link to the thread or just admit you made it up.
i don’t believe in the whole “dig up old comments to humiliate individuals”... that’s the kind of sick stuff the leftovers of this forum participate in.  It’s not important.

You don't see the hypocrisy here? You actually are making fun of the members of this forum by concocting some story that the masses wouldn't trade a 2nd rd pick for Embiid, yet you can't post the link because it's a blatant lie. That's pretty sad, man.

The topic is a good one, but you went off the rails by fabricating things. You don't have to do that in order to try to make a point.o
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: LarBrd33 on June 17, 2018, 07:25:18 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

You really think the Spurs, after dealing with all they did with Leonard this season, would take back Fultz as a primary piece? The same Fultz that apparently had to change his entire shooting form and was injured virtually the entire season. Wow lol. Just wow. Fultz might be an elite prospect but RIGHT NOW, his trade value is not that high. He can be a piece in a trade but if he's the primary piece, then good luck. PHI would certainly have to add Saric to that and probably another pick.
Philly can’t give up a superstar prospect like Fultz without getting assurance kawhi will re-sign, but yeah that seems to be the offer to beat.

Wow..

(https://media.giphy.com/media/mQtpIk4Q2WGas/giphy.gif)
reminds me of when the majority of this forum said they wouldn’t give up a 2nd rounder for Embiid. This isn’t really a place for taking the long view.

That just isn't true... And even if people said that, it was probably in jest... Even if Embiid never plays up to his potential, chances are he will outplay any 2nd rounder generally.

Stop making up lies.

Like dude, I don't get what your angle or point is... Why are you so infatuated with the 76ers?

We just beat them 4-1 with Hayward and Kyrie out... Why do you seriously think they are that much of a threat unless they sign LeBron, or acquire PG-13/Kawhi? And none of those options are a foregone conclusion.
ill chalk it up to “jest” when those same fans act like the youngest player in nba history to achieve a triple double isn’t adequate return for Kawhi Leonard.  That’s Philly’s trade to turn down.

Forget that, I want to see these "jest" comments for myself. LarBrd, one thing is for you to overhype the Sixers, but now you're stooping really low by lying. Besides, not only are you lying, but you're basically ridiculing the collective basketball IQ of this forum.

So PLEASE either find post the link to the thread or just admit you made it up.
i don’t believe in the whole “dig up old comments to humiliate individuals”... that’s the kind of sick stuff the leftovers of this forum participate in.  It’s not important. You called me a sixer fan for relaying that several fans around the league think brown has a ceiling of a fringe star.  Calling me a sixer fan had absolutely nothing to do with what I was taking about.  That’s just the type of instigatey nonsense that caused this forum to lose a gem like LarBrd33 in the first place.  Traditionally, you only feel alive when you are calling me a Sixer fan. I played along and joked his ceiling was Dario Saric.  That should be enough for you Eddie.   You’re welcome.

Now, if you have something of value to add to the discussion of whether it makes sense to gamble on kawhi at the expense or someone who has a realistic ceiling of j-rich/Sczerbiak, we can get back on topic.

Serious questions I want to ask you LarBrd33.

Who do you think has more value, Fultz or Jaylen Brown? Who do you think will become the better player, and why do you think the Spurs would even be interested in Fultz anyways?
lets just forget about Fultz. I don’t think people here have the capacity to understand it and it’s not really the topic of this thread.  What we are talking about here is whether Jaylen is “the next kawhi”.  I’d love for that to happen, but it’s not realistic.  More realistically he peaks as a fringe star. So the question becomes, if kawhi is healthy how much risk are you willing to take. Personally I wouldn’t give up Jaylen, even if his ceiling is only somewhere around Corey maggette, unless we know for certain kawhi is healthy and willing to stay long term. 
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: bellerephon on June 17, 2018, 07:30:12 PM
I put Brown's potential peak higher than that, reaching Leonard's peak of an elite player is probably too much to hope for, but I think he has potential to be more than a fringe star. He needs to get better in a few key areas, and he very well may not get there, but it is not crazy to think he could become more than a fringe star.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: LarBrd33 on June 17, 2018, 07:33:52 PM
I put Brown's potential peak higher than that, reaching Leonard's peak of an elite player is probably too much to hope for, but I think he has potential to be more than a fringe star. He needs to get better in a few key areas, and he very well may not get there, but it is not crazy to think he could become more than a fringe star.
personally, I agree with you.  I’ve been saying since we drafted him that he could end up jimmy butler with enough development.  But even that is far from a guarantee.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Beat LA on June 17, 2018, 07:36:37 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak. 

Reddit opinions can differ wildly.  Most recently I’ve seen Jaylen compared to Shane Battier.

What does your food truck guy say on the matter? ;) ;D
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: gouki88 on June 17, 2018, 07:45:25 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

You really think the Spurs, after dealing with all they did with Leonard this season, would take back Fultz as a primary piece? The same Fultz that apparently had to change his entire shooting form and was injured virtually the entire season. Wow lol. Just wow. Fultz might be an elite prospect but RIGHT NOW, his trade value is not that high. He can be a piece in a trade but if he's the primary piece, then good luck. PHI would certainly have to add Saric to that and probably another pick.
Philly can’t give up a superstar prospect like Fultz without getting assurance kawhi will re-sign, but yeah that seems to be the offer to beat.

Wow..

(https://media.giphy.com/media/mQtpIk4Q2WGas/giphy.gif)
reminds me of when the majority of this forum said they wouldn’t give up a 2nd rounder for Embiid. This isn’t really a place for taking the long view.

That just isn't true... And even if people said that, it was probably in jest... Even if Embiid never plays up to his potential, chances are he will outplay any 2nd rounder generally.

Stop making up lies.

Like dude, I don't get what your angle or point is... Why are you so infatuated with the 76ers?

We just beat them 4-1 with Hayward and Kyrie out... Why do you seriously think they are that much of a threat unless they sign LeBron, or acquire PG-13/Kawhi? And none of those options are a foregone conclusion.
ill chalk it up to “jest” when those same fans act like the youngest player in nba history to achieve a triple double isn’t adequate return for Kawhi Leonard.  That’s Philly’s trade to turn down.

Forget that, I want to see these "jest" comments for myself. LarBrd, one thing is for you to overhype the Sixers, but now you're stooping really low by lying. Besides, not only are you lying, but you're basically ridiculing the collective basketball IQ of this forum.

So PLEASE either find post the link to the thread or just admit you made it up.
i don’t believe in the whole “dig up old comments to humiliate individuals”... that’s the kind of sick stuff the leftovers of this forum participate in. .
That's very convenient
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: keevsnick on June 17, 2018, 09:18:20 PM
I put Brown's potential peak higher than that, reaching Leonard's peak of an elite player is probably too much to hope for, but I think he has potential to be more than a fringe star. He needs to get better in a few key areas, and he very well may not get there, but it is not crazy to think he could become more than a fringe star.
personally, I agree with you.  I’ve been saying since we drafted him that he could end up jimmy butler with enough development.  But even that is far from a guarantee.

See thats what I dont get, if you thought that after drafting him how is it after seeing him by all accounts be ahead of schedule now think that his most likely outcome is josh Richardson. See most people have gone the other direction. Most thought coming out he was Richardson but have up grades their projections based off his performance thus far.

That said I think we arent that far off. I think most people believe he could be a Jimmy Butler/ Paul George pkayer, the difference is how likely you think that outcome is. I would say its like 50/50 he gets there, you seem to think its much lower. To each his own I guess.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: gpap on June 17, 2018, 09:23:53 PM
Yes we do. And his name is Gordon Hayward. He's just as good, if not better.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: blink on June 17, 2018, 10:28:34 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

You really think the Spurs, after dealing with all they did with Leonard this season, would take back Fultz as a primary piece? The same Fultz that apparently had to change his entire shooting form and was injured virtually the entire season. Wow lol. Just wow. Fultz might be an elite prospect but RIGHT NOW, his trade value is not that high. He can be a piece in a trade but if he's the primary piece, then good luck. PHI would certainly have to add Saric to that and probably another pick.
Philly can’t give up a superstar prospect like Fultz without getting assurance kawhi will re-sign, but yeah that seems to be the offer to beat.

Wow..

(https://media.giphy.com/media/mQtpIk4Q2WGas/giphy.gif)

Yeah that one made me want to jab my eyes out too.  I guess Larbrd33 didn't watch the playoffs.  He didn't see Jaylen drop 30 in some playoff games, average 18ppg in the playoffs after coming back from a hamstring injury IN THE PLAYOFFS. 

I value the playoff stats way more than the regular season stats.  How many of those guys that larbrd33 is saying are Jaylen's ceiling did ANYTHING remotely like that in their second year in the playoffs?  I have no idea, but I doubt any of them did.  Tatum and Brown both almost willed us to the finals themselves.  Both are keepers unless we can somehow swing a trade for the brow. 

Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Beat LA on June 18, 2018, 01:25:21 AM
I put Brown's potential peak higher than that, reaching Leonard's peak of an elite player is probably too much to hope for, but I think he has potential to be more than a fringe star. He needs to get better in a few key areas, and he very well may not get there, but it is not crazy to think he could become more than a fringe star.
personally, I agree with you.  I’ve been saying since we drafted him that he could end up jimmy butler with enough development.  But even that is far from a guarantee.

See thats what I dont get, if you thought that after drafting him how is it after seeing him by all accounts be ahead of schedule now think that his most likely outcome is josh Richardson. See most people have gone the other direction. Most thought coming out he was Richardson but have up grades their projections based off his performance thus far.

That said I think we arent that far off. I think most people believe he could be a Jimmy Butler/ Paul George pkayer, the difference is how likely you think that outcome is. I would say its like 50/50 he gets there, you seem to think its much lower. To each his own I guess.

As much as I love Josh Richardson, we're talking about Jason Richardson, here, lol ;D.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: celticsclay on June 18, 2018, 10:49:23 AM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

You really think the Spurs, after dealing with all they did with Leonard this season, would take back Fultz as a primary piece? The same Fultz that apparently had to change his entire shooting form and was injured virtually the entire season. Wow lol. Just wow. Fultz might be an elite prospect but RIGHT NOW, his trade value is not that high. He can be a piece in a trade but if he's the primary piece, then good luck. PHI would certainly have to add Saric to that and probably another pick.
Philly can’t give up a superstar prospect like Fultz without getting assurance kawhi will re-sign, but yeah that seems to be the offer to beat.

Do you think fultz is the number 2 prospect in league right now? Maybe after the draft he is 3?
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: celticsclay on June 19, 2018, 07:52:16 AM
To keep him off of other teams.  It is all well and good to not want to give up the farm for Leonard, but Boston can kiss any shot at winning the title over the next 3-5 years if Leonard ends up in LA with James or on the Sixers (not to mention the Warriors are still out there).
If only Leonard ends up on Philly, they're still not better than Boston. Even if he and James end up in L.A., that's not a team I'd consider unbeatable unless they get George too.
Philly is absolutely better than Boston if Leonard joins them if the trade is something like Covington, Fultz, and 10.  They could even add Saric and 26 and they are still likely better, and in that scenario they still have cap room for another max player or can just re-sign all of their free agents i.e. Redick, Ilyasova, Belinelli, and Johnson.

This is a pretty darn good team

PG - Simmons, McConnell, Bayless
SG - Redick, Belinelli, Korkmaz
SF - Leonard, Anderson, Luwauw-Cabarrot
PF - Ilyasova, Johnson
C - Embiid, Holmes

That team is absolutely stacked

Calling that team absolutely stacked is a bit hilarious. It would be a team starting two below average starters (reddick should not be starting at 34 years old and illasova is not even close to a starter level while rumored to be 35). Worse, McConnell may be the only one of that group (and Johnson in very short minutes) that is an average bench player. I mean Holmes, tlc, bellinelli and Anderson as primary bench options? Bleh. We could all do cartwheels if this happened and liberty ballers would be in a collective meltdown.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: boscel33 on June 19, 2018, 09:21:51 AM
I just don't see why people are so hopeful of landing him. I feel like we have a younger version of him in the making in Jaylen Brown on a cost controlled contract and someone who is healthy. Obviously, you can argue KL is better but is he 4-6x better? And isn';t JB on the same career trajectory as KL? Will he ever reach the height of KL? No one can tell. But I'm willing to bet on it. He has athleticism through the roof and his work ethic and drive to be the best matches his athleticism level.

I just don't see why people are so hell bent on getting KL. Look close at the stats:

Kawhi Leonard
Age 20: 7.9ppg/5.1rpg in 24mpg
Age 21: 11.9ppg/6.0rpg in 31mpg
Age 22: 12.8ppg/6.2rpg in 29mpg
Age 23: 16.5ppg/7.2rpg in 32mpg
Age 24: 21.2ppg/ 6.8rpg in 33mpg
Age 25: 25.5ppg/5.8rpg in 33mpg

Jaylen Brown
Age 20: 6.6ppg/3rpg in 17mpg
Age 21: 14.5ppg/5rpg in 31mpg

It's arguable, JB has developed even quicker than KL as he is already nearly matching Season 4 output in his 2nd season.

ABSOLUTELY AGREE!

Posted the same thing and put a link to a player comparison between the two.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: CelticsJG on June 19, 2018, 10:26:13 AM
I just don't see why people are so hopeful of landing him. I feel like we have a younger version of him in the making in Jaylen Brown on a cost controlled contract and someone who is healthy. Obviously, you can argue KL is better but is he 4-6x better? And isn';t JB on the same career trajectory as KL? Will he ever reach the height of KL? No one can tell. But I'm willing to bet on it. He has athleticism through the roof and his work ethic and drive to be the best matches his athleticism level.

I just don't see why people are so hell bent on getting KL. Look close at the stats:

Kawhi Leonard
Age 20: 7.9ppg/5.1rpg in 24mpg
Age 21: 11.9ppg/6.0rpg in 31mpg
Age 22: 12.8ppg/6.2rpg in 29mpg
Age 23: 16.5ppg/7.2rpg in 32mpg
Age 24: 21.2ppg/ 6.8rpg in 33mpg
Age 25: 25.5ppg/5.8rpg in 33mpg

Jaylen Brown
Age 20: 6.6ppg/3rpg in 17mpg
Age 21: 14.5ppg/5rpg in 31mpg

It's arguable, JB has developed even quicker than KL as he is already nearly matching Season 4 output in his 2nd season.

Please those are just counting stats. Look at Kawhi advance stats of the same year. Blows Jaylen out of the water.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: Eddie20 on June 21, 2018, 04:23:28 PM
We have to ask ourselves if Kawhi was playing in the 7th game vs the Cavs this year and not Brown would he have been better for us?

I think Ainge knows he needs his defense on Bron, KD and Harden...while getting 20 himself.

Can Brown do that? I think he can he's not there yet.

As a 21 year old, Brown averaged 18 points and 5 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. He also had a bum hamstring.

As a 21 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player.

As a 22 year old, Leonard averaged 14 points and 7 rebounds, while defending the other team's best player. This run included a 4 point game, a 7 point game, and a 6 point game. It also included two 9 point games in the finals.

As a 23 year old, the Spurs were eliminated by the Clippers in the first round of the playoffs. Leonard had 12 points and 13 points in games 6 and 7, both of which were losses.

The concept that, because Brown struggled in game 7, it means his ceiling isn't as high as Leonard, is flawed.

We're not trading for Kawhi at 21, 22, or 23. If Kawhi is healthy, he is better than Brown, and any reasonable expectation of what Brown turns into. I have high hopes for Brown, but Leonard is a two time DPOY and MVP candidate

Disagree but neither of us will say anything new and neither of us will convince the other.

The argument that was made (and has been made in other places) was regarding Jaylen's upside due to his poor last game. That argument is flawed. That was my only point.

No, your premise is flawed. I said that last game vs Cavs because ultimately that's what all this boils down too. Getting Kawhi now is what's important. We know Brown will eventually get better but how much is the question.

In order for Ainge to regret this trade Brown would have to be the DPOY multiple times, and be a top 5 player in the league within 5 years. Is that possible?
Of course its possible that Brown could be that good, but your point is that the odds are that he won't.

I would say that Jaylen's odds of becoming an occasional all star are about 25%
His odds of being Paul George good are about 50%
His odds of being top 5 good are about 25%

Jaylen has a huge upside.

You are also ignoring the very real possibility that Kawhi Leonard doesn't have problems going forward. Last year was disturbing on several levels. It is hardly a sure bet that he comes back as if nothing had happened. There is a very real possibility that Jaylen is the better player in a year or two.
you are basically saying there is a 75% chance brown ends up Paul George at the least. 

That’s wildly optimistic.  The most likely scenario, by far, is that he peaks out as a fringe star that never makes an allstar team.

Brown might end up terrific, but his ceiling is stil lower than prime kawhi.  Best case scenario he ends up like jimmy butler.

No one has any clue what Jaylen Brown's ceiling is or what his best case scenario is.
lots of players had high ceilings they never reached.  His highest possible ceiling is probably jimmy butler. A mid-level expectation for him is probably André Iguodala.  Still a solid chance he ends up worse.
What are you actually basing these projections on? He doesn’t play like Jimmy Butler nor Iguodala

Yeah, I don't see any similarities, there, either. I tend to think that Brown, at least at this point, is a carbon copy of Jason Richardson.

Not sure as to how I feel about that, lol ;D.
I think he's definitely closer to JRich, but more of a defender and less of a passer. Although JRich came into the league at 21, so it might be a bit unfair to compare them for a couple of years
Agreed.  JRich is a reasonable ceiling for him.  Fringe star who put up big numbers, but never made an all-star team. 

Good call.  The question then becomes whether or not you think it's worthwhile to trade for a "top 5" player like Kawhi at the expense of a player who projects as Jason Richardson in a few years?
That's only the question if you ignore all context. Kawhi is, or at least was, a top 5 player, but he is injured and may never be that guy again. He is also an impending free agent who has expressed a desire to play in LA (aka as far from Boston as possible, really). JB is a guy who projects to be Richardson-esque, but is cost-controlled for the foreseeable future, is invested in Boston, is a leader of this team and is a healthy 21 year old.
I totally hear you and I agree that giving up a guy with a Richardson ceiling (or as I've heard others suggest - a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling) for an MVP-caliber player is a no-brainer, but when you consider that MVP-caliber player has injury concerns and might be a rental, having multiple years of a cost-controlled young player with a Wally Szczerbiak ceiling has a lot of appeal.

Where was this? Reddit?
For instance... my bubble tea guy, who has a proven track record of making a mean bubble tea while proving spot-on NBA insight, tells me jaylen optimistically projects as a smaller Wally Szczerbiak.

Based on what? Szerbiak a put up 14 points in his second NBA season roughly the same kind of year as Jaylen. He also turned 24 that year. Jaylen is way ahead of where Szerbiak was as a player at his age. Szerbiak is his floor. I have to reiterate this, but young players who are good at 21 get better, often much better. Weather its the Butlrt, George, Hayward, Kawhi ive mentioned. Or Szerbiak. Or Harrison Barnes. Or otto Porter. You can say his ceiling is Szerbiak but when hes better, younger than Szerbiak was its just not a credible comparison
i think what they are saying is the best case scenario Jaylen ends up a fringe star like Wally szczerbiak. Obviously we have several more years before we see if he stays at his current level, improves to an Otto porter level, or reaches his Wally Sczerbiak/J-Rich ceiling.  Personally I think there’s a chance he exceeds reasonable expectations and develops into a jimmy butler.

Your comparisons are utterly ridiculous.

It seems as though you're still mad that a very limited Jaylen Brown, maybe not even at 50%, dominated your Sixers. The guy averaged 15.3 PPG, in just 27 MPG, on 53.5% from the field and 50% from distance. Now imagine him healthy. Now imagine him as he continues to get better. Scary stuff, huh? I don't blame you for being bitter that the Sixers don't have anyone like him on their roster. Bitterness is your sole motivation when you bring Wally, a player that most Celtics fans don't think highly of.
Jaylen will be our 4th option next season if everyone is healthy.

Isn't that scary? Think about it, the 2 guys that absolutely destroyed the Sixers are going to be our 4th and 5th offensive options. How do you even hope to cope with that?
Eddie, careful.  Philly overachieved in year 1 of the dynasty and could realistically add kawhi and Lebron/George this summer.  Hard to imagine anyone outbidding a Fultz + #10 + Covington offer for kawhi.

You really think the Spurs, after dealing with all they did with Leonard this season, would take back Fultz as a primary piece? The same Fultz that apparently had to change his entire shooting form and was injured virtually the entire season. Wow lol. Just wow. Fultz might be an elite prospect but RIGHT NOW, his trade value is not that high. He can be a piece in a trade but if he's the primary piece, then good luck. PHI would certainly have to add Saric to that and probably another pick.
Philly can’t give up a superstar prospect like Fultz without getting assurance kawhi will re-sign, but yeah that seems to be the offer to beat.

Wow..

(https://media.giphy.com/media/mQtpIk4Q2WGas/giphy.gif)
reminds me of when the majority of this forum said they wouldn’t give up a 2nd rounder for Embiid. This isn’t really a place for taking the long view.

That just isn't true... And even if people said that, it was probably in jest... Even if Embiid never plays up to his potential, chances are he will outplay any 2nd rounder generally.

Stop making up lies.

Like dude, I don't get what your angle or point is... Why are you so infatuated with the 76ers?

We just beat them 4-1 with Hayward and Kyrie out... Why do you seriously think they are that much of a threat unless they sign LeBron, or acquire PG-13/Kawhi? And none of those options are a foregone conclusion.
ill chalk it up to “jest” when those same fans act like the youngest player in nba history to achieve a triple double isn’t adequate return for Kawhi Leonard.  That’s Philly’s trade to turn down.

Forget that, I want to see these "jest" comments for myself. LarBrd, one thing is for you to overhype the Sixers, but now you're stooping really low by lying. Besides, not only are you lying, but you're basically ridiculing the collective basketball IQ of this forum.

So PLEASE either find post the link to the thread or just admit you made it up.
i don’t believe in the whole “dig up old comments to humiliate individuals”... that’s the kind of sick stuff the leftovers of this forum participate in.  It’s not important. You called me a sixer fan for relaying that several fans around the league think brown has a ceiling of a fringe star.  Calling me a sixer fan had absolutely nothing to do with what I was taking about.  That’s just the type of instigatey nonsense that caused this forum to lose a gem like LarBrd33 in the first place.  Traditionally, you only feel alive when you are calling me a Sixer fan. I played along and joked his ceiling was Dario Saric.  That should be enough for you Eddie.   You’re welcome.

Now, if you have something of value to add to the discussion of whether it makes sense to gamble on kawhi at the expense or someone who has a realistic ceiling of j-rich/Sczerbiak, we can get back on topic.

Serious questions I want to ask you LarBrd33.

Who do you think has more value, Fultz or Jaylen Brown? Who do you think will become the better player, and why do you think the Spurs would even be interested in Fultz anyways?
lets just forget about Fultz. I don’t think people here have the capacity to understand it.

I guess the Sixers don't understand Fultz and his superstar potential either...

MICHAEL SCOTTO/THE ATHLETIC -
The Philadelphia 76ers held internal talks about packaging Markelle Fultz as well as the No. 10 and No. 26 picks to move into the top-5 to select Michael Porter Jr., according to sources.

The 76ers moved away from that strategy due to Porter's recurring back issues.
Title: Re: Why Kawhi Leonard...we already have him
Post by: CelticsElite on May 30, 2019, 11:57:10 PM
How has this take aged so far?