Walker and Giddens, Again.

[huzy]

I think Doc really needs to show some foresight here - with the lack of proven depth at the small forward position on this team, Doc needs to figure out whether either of these guys has it in them to step up in a real game, not in practice.

If look at comparative teams at our level (Cleveland, LA, San Antonio, Orlando) their rookies are playing substantial minutes, outside of the Lakers.

JJ Hickson: 12 MPG
George Hill: 17 MPG
Courtney Lee: 23 MPG

While each of these picks was significantly earlier than either Giddens or Walker, these teams are getting substantial contributions from their rookies.

Perhaps, if Doc had more patience with rookies and acclimated into significant minutes, we could have more depth on a bench that is widely known as being shallow. 

[MiltPalacio]

As to Bill Walker, who I think has tremendous upside, he's just not ready to play serious minutes yet.  I think he could hang on Offense but his defense is just unacceptable at this point, in the limited time he's been on the floor he's constantly looking lossed and confused on assignments, and I have yet to see him effectively handle a pick.  I think the best thing to do is sit on him this year and wait for next year and give him scal's minutes since we'll be preparing for life after Ronald McDonald at that point.  Next year is critical to play him, or else that upside could turn into a "kedrick brown" like reality


I can't speak as to J.R. b/c I just havent seen him play at all

[winsomme]

Walker and Giddens are rookies, not saviours. Pruitt has not shown that he is the backup pg we need. There are less than 30 games left to play and we are not playing as well as we should be despite the record. The goals for the rest of the season are to get home court advantage, especially for the East, rest our players, get practice time and most important, improve our play such as in reducing turnovers and making our free throws. To do this this we need to play the players who will be playing in the playoffs. This excludes Giddens, Walker and (Pruitt). These three all have talent, but they are not NBA ready at this time.

The question, then, is how do we backup the 3 going forward, while still getting rest for Paul and Ray down the stretch?  Is that possible without playing Walker?

If Ray is the primary backup for Paul, how do you limit Ray's minutes, while also keeping Ray and Paul in the game at the same time for long stretches?

this is my question too, Roy. and i think the answer is going to be some hodgepodge of Eddie, Mar, Scals and TA (when they come back)....

until Scals and TA come back, I think we are going to see Rondo getting more minutes and some terribly small lineups with Rondo (Marbury), Eddie (Marbury), Ray (Paul).....

maybe with Walker getting those like 1 minute stints to get either Ray or Paul a rest at the end of the 1st and 3rd Qs.

personally, I'm not crazy about it. It's too patchwork-y for me and leaves us vulnerable defensively with the smallness, but that seems to be the direction they are headed....

[Atzar]

Walker and Giddens are rookies, not saviours. Pruitt has not shown that he is the backup pg we need. There are less than 30 games left to play and we are not playing as well as we should be despite the record. The goals for the rest of the season are to get home court advantage, especially for the East, rest our players, get practice time and most important, improve our play such as in reducing turnovers and making our free throws. To do this this we need to play the players who will be playing in the playoffs. This excludes Giddens, Walker and (Pruitt). These three all have talent, but they are not NBA ready at this time.

So when Paul gets in foul trouble, who takes LeBron?  Nobody's trying to make them into saviors.  I'm not expecting Bill Walker or JR to come in and score 20 points with 10 rebounds and 10 assists in 15 minutes while holding LeBron to zero's.  We all know that isn't happening.  I'm just talking about 5-10 minutes a game for whichever looks the best.  Try to get them used to the system, used to the rotations.  That way, if they're forced to come in during the playoffs, they've at least got a little bit of time under their belts.  In all likelihood LeBron will still abuse them if they're in the game, but it won't be as bad as it will if they're tossed out there with no minutes at all.

[2short]

I don't think either guy is really ready to play.  BUT we need them to get some time because how else will a rookie get comfortable.  Walker can give us some time at sf and that is a posistion we need bodies for.  If I'm doc I put him in at the end of the 1st quarter with all the starters and give PP a break for 5 minutes.  Don't play either guy with ANY subs.  Walker will bring the defensive intensity we'll need from him for playoffs (hope he's ready) and if he is out there with all starters we won't need to score or do anything out of the ordinary.  Which means if he relaxes and plays within the team game he shouldn't have too many turnovers/fouls etc ie. won't hurt us.

[nickagneta]

I'm sorry, but I know a lot of people are of the firm belief that a coach can not adequately gauge what a player will do in agame atmosphere simply by watching them in practice but I think that is completely and utterly wrong. I don't buy it and no amount of pointing out the opposite opinion is going to change my mind.

I coached for years in a couple of sports, and I know it was only youth ball, but the mistakes that I saw at practice that I knew would come back to hurt a players performance didn't suddenly go away because they got playing time. That's just human nature people and it's not going to change just because of an increase in age or ability or an increase in competition.

Doc is coaching to win and gets paid for just that. The young players he feels are ready are playiong. The young players he feels aren't ready are not. Doc's job is not to placate the fans of the Boston celtics who don't like his methods or who feel they know more about basketball than he does. It is to win and right now, how can we really argue with the results.

All those people who were calling for POB are now witnessing that he can't crack the rotation in Toronto either. Maybe Doc is a lot better at gauging when a player is ready to help a championship caliber team win games, day in and day out, than many thinks he is. A few fancy dunks and a good NBDL game aside, Walker and Giddens have shown nothing in games and probably just as little in practice. Let's face it if they want minutes they have to play better than the people in front of them.

Doc has done a masterful job of keeping the Big Three's minutes down while at the same time winning games. As I posted elsewhere, comparing the amount of minutes he plays the Big Three as compared to the minutes that Popovich, Jack, Tomjonovich and other championship coaches have played their 30+ stars you will find he plays them about the same or less(sometimes much less) than those great coaches played their thirtysomething stars.

Doc says they aren't ready, his track record since getting some talent here in Boston is okay by me. I think he's earned the right to play whoever he wants.

 

[Atzar]

All those people who were calling for POB are now witnessing that he can't crack the rotation in Toronto either. Maybe Doc is a lot better at gauging when a player is ready to help a championship caliber team win games, day in and day out, than many thinks he is. A few fancy dunks and a good NBDL game aside, Walker and Giddens have shown nothing in games and probably just as little in practice. Let's face it if they want minutes they have to play better than the people in front of them.

Doc has done a masterful job of keeping the Big Three's minutes down while at the same time winning games. As I posted elsewhere, comparing the amount of minutes he plays the Big Three as compared to the minutes that Popovich, Jack, Tomjonovich and other championship coaches have played their 30+ stars you will find he plays them about the same or less(sometimes much less) than those great coaches played their thirtysomething stars.

Doc says they aren't ready, his track record since getting some talent here in Boston is okay by me. I think he's earned the right to play whoever he wants.

 

The first half of your post is well-taken; the second half I disagree with.  You mentioned that Walker and Giddens need to outplay the men in front of them to get time, and I agree with that.  Paul Pierce and Ray Allen are undoubtedly in front of them, and then there's... who?  For the third time, what happens when Paul Pierce can't play due to foul trouble?  Do you put Ray on LeBron for 36 minutes of the game?  I sure hope not.  Again, what if we have to put one of the rookies on the court in the playoffs? 

And I disagree that Doc has done well at keeping the Big Three's minutes down, with the exception of Kevin Garnett.  I think Ray and Paul have played too many minutes, especially here lately.  It's one thing if they have to be left in to preserve the game, but it's another thing when they're left on the court in a blowout.  In the 38-point win over the Nuggets, Paul and Ray played 33 minutes each, more than anybody else on the team.  You can't tell me they couldn't have been pulled earlier without jeopardizing the win.  In a 20-point victory at Phoenix, Paul and Ray played 44 and 40 minutes respectively.  The whole "Phoenix can close the gap really quickly" argument is bull.  Pull them, and if Phoenix goes on a run then put them back in. 

Doc has indeed been a great coach, and I think he got snubbed last year for the Coach of the Year award.  That, however, doesn't mean he's immune to mistakes, or that his judgment can't be off.  I think this is one of those times that his judgment is off.

[nickagneta]

All those people who were calling for POB are now witnessing that he can't crack the rotation in Toronto either. Maybe Doc is a lot better at gauging when a player is ready to help a championship caliber team win games, day in and day out, than many thinks he is. A few fancy dunks and a good NBDL game aside, Walker and Giddens have shown nothing in games and probably just as little in practice. Let's face it if they want minutes they have to play better than the people in front of them.

Doc has done a masterful job of keeping the Big Three's minutes down while at the same time winning games. As I posted elsewhere, comparing the amount of minutes he plays the Big Three as compared to the minutes that Popovich, Jack, Tomjonovich and other championship coaches have played their 30+ stars you will find he plays them about the same or less(sometimes much less) than those great coaches played their thirtysomething stars.

Doc says they aren't ready, his track record since getting some talent here in Boston is okay by me. I think he's earned the right to play whoever he wants.

 

The first half of your post is well-taken; the second half I disagree with.  You mentioned that Walker and Giddens need to outplay the men in front of them to get time, and I agree with that.  Paul Pierce and Ray Allen are undoubtedly in front of them, and then there's... who?  For the third time, what happens when Paul Pierce can't play due to foul trouble?  Do you put Ray on LeBron for 36 minutes of the game?  I sure hope not.  Again, what if we have to put one of the rookies on the court in the playoffs? 

And I disagree that Doc has done well at keeping the Big Three's minutes down, with the exception of Kevin Garnett.  I think Ray and Paul have played too many minutes, especially here lately.  It's one thing if they have to be left in to preserve the game, but it's another thing when they're left on the court in a blowout.  In the 38-point win over the Nuggets, Paul and Ray played 33 minutes each, more than anybody else on the team.  You can't tell me they couldn't have been pulled earlier without jeopardizing the win.  In a 20-point victory at Phoenix, Paul and Ray played 44 and 40 minutes respectively.  The whole "Phoenix can close the gap really quickly" argument is bull.  Pull them, and if Phoenix goes on a run then put them back in. 

Doc has indeed been a great coach, and I think he got snubbed last year for the Coach of the Year award.  That, however, doesn't mean he's immune to mistakes, or that his judgment can't be off.  I think this is one of those times that his judgment is off.

Garnett's MPG this year: 32.2
Pierce's MPG this year: 37.3
Allen's MPG this year : 36.3

Garnett is playing less per minute than last year. Allen is about the same, maybe 30 seconds per game more. Pierce is playing a little over a minute more. And last year the Big Three got a ton of 20 MPG games in the last 3 weeks that lowered those numbers. As I said before go back and see what Phil jackson played Pippen and Jordan. See how much he played Shaq. See how much Pop played Duncan two years ago. Take a look at what Rudy T played Hakeem and Clyde. Doc is playing his thirtysomethings less minutes than these great coaches did their thirtysomething stars.

His time management of their minutes has been great. If they end the year at similar to better numbers than last year I don't see how anyone can complain. Has he overplayed them in a game here or there? Sure, what coach doesn't overplay his best on occasions? I think it is minor. If the Big Three were up around 40 MPG I would be worried. But they are nowhere near that number.

And as for who is in front of the rookies how about Eddie House, Gabe Pruitt, Tony Allen, Brian Scalabrini and now Stephon Marbury. Any and all of those guys deserve minutes at the 2 and 3 before the rooks. With Scal and Allen hurt will Ray and Pierce need to play a minute or two more per game? Sure. But aren't their minutes in a game way more productive and positive and ensure of being quality minutes than some unproven rookie that may have thus far shown nothing to their coach?

[winsomme]

All those people who were calling for POB are now witnessing that he can't crack the rotation in Toronto either. Maybe Doc is a lot better at gauging when a player is ready to help a championship caliber team win games, day in and day out, than many thinks he is. A few fancy dunks and a good NBDL game aside, Walker and Giddens have shown nothing in games and probably just as little in practice. Let's face it if they want minutes they have to play better than the people in front of them.

Doc has done a masterful job of keeping the Big Three's minutes down while at the same time winning games. As I posted elsewhere, comparing the amount of minutes he plays the Big Three as compared to the minutes that Popovich, Jack, Tomjonovich and other championship coaches have played their 30+ stars you will find he plays them about the same or less(sometimes much less) than those great coaches played their thirtysomething stars.

Doc says they aren't ready, his track record since getting some talent here in Boston is okay by me. I think he's earned the right to play whoever he wants.

 

The first half of your post is well-taken; the second half I disagree with.  You mentioned that Walker and Giddens need to outplay the men in front of them to get time, and I agree with that.  Paul Pierce and Ray Allen are undoubtedly in front of them, and then there's... who?  For the third time, what happens when Paul Pierce can't play due to foul trouble?  Do you put Ray on LeBron for 36 minutes of the game?  I sure hope not.  Again, what if we have to put one of the rookies on the court in the playoffs? 

And I disagree that Doc has done well at keeping the Big Three's minutes down, with the exception of Kevin Garnett.  I think Ray and Paul have played too many minutes, especially here lately.  It's one thing if they have to be left in to preserve the game, but it's another thing when they're left on the court in a blowout.  In the 38-point win over the Nuggets, Paul and Ray played 33 minutes each, more than anybody else on the team.  You can't tell me they couldn't have been pulled earlier without jeopardizing the win.  In a 20-point victory at Phoenix, Paul and Ray played 44 and 40 minutes respectively.  The whole "Phoenix can close the gap really quickly" argument is bull.  Pull them, and if Phoenix goes on a run then put them back in. 

Doc has indeed been a great coach, and I think he got snubbed last year for the Coach of the Year award.  That, however, doesn't mean he's immune to mistakes, or that his judgment can't be off.  I think this is one of those times that his judgment is off.

Garnett's MPG this year: 32.2
Pierce's MPG this year: 37.3
Allen's MPG this year : 36.3

Garnett is playing less per minute than last year. Allen is about the same, maybe 30 seconds per game more. Pierce is playing a little over a minute more. And last year the Big Three got a ton of 20 MPG games in the last 3 weeks that lowered those numbers. As I said before go back and see what Phil jackson played Pippen and Jordan. See how much he played Shaq. See how much Pop played Duncan two years ago. Take a look at what Rudy T played Hakeem and Clyde. Doc is playing his thirtysomethings less minutes than these great coaches did their thirtysomething stars.

His time management of their minutes has been great. If they end the year at similar to better numbers than last year I don't see how anyone can complain. Has he overplayed them in a game here or there? Sure, what coach doesn't overplay his best on occasions? I think it is minor. If the Big Three were up around 40 MPG I would be worried. But they are nowhere near that number.

And as for who is in front of the rookies how about Eddie House, Gabe Pruitt, Tony Allen, Brian Scalabrini and now Stephon Marbury. Any and all of those guys deserve minutes at the 2 and 3 before the rooks. With Scal and Allen hurt will Ray and Pierce need to play a minute or two more per game? Sure. But aren't their minutes in a game way more productive and positive and ensure of being quality minutes than some unproven rookie that may have thus far shown nothing to their coach?

Nick, At is making a good point here. another big minute night for Paul and Ray....

we don't know how the injury situation is going to unfold for TA and Scals, and Eddie and Mar can't be guarding guys that are 6'7".

what happens if Ray or Paul gets in FT?

I'd like to see Walker getting some minutes here too, but i don't think it's going to happen.

[CoachBo]

I'm sorry, but I know a lot of people are of the firm belief that a coach can not adequately gauge what a player will do in agame atmosphere simply by watching them in practice but I think that is completely and utterly wrong. I don't buy it and no amount of pointing out the opposite opinion is going to change my mind.

I coached for years in a couple of sports, and I know it was only youth ball, but the mistakes that I saw at practice that I knew would come back to hurt a players performance didn't suddenly go away because they got playing time. That's just human nature people and it's not going to change just because of an increase in age or ability or an increase in competition.

Doc is coaching to win and gets paid for just that. The young players he feels are ready are playiong. The young players he feels aren't ready are not. Doc's job is not to placate the fans of the Boston celtics who don't like his methods or who feel they know more about basketball than he does. It is to win and right now, how can we really argue with the results.

All those people who were calling for POB are now witnessing that he can't crack the rotation in Toronto either. Maybe Doc is a lot better at gauging when a player is ready to help a championship caliber team win games, day in and day out, than many thinks he is. A few fancy dunks and a good NBDL game aside, Walker and Giddens have shown nothing in games and probably just as little in practice. Let's face it if they want minutes they have to play better than the people in front of them.

Doc has done a masterful job of keeping the Big Three's minutes down while at the same time winning games. As I posted elsewhere, comparing the amount of minutes he plays the Big Three as compared to the minutes that Popovich, Jack, Tomjonovich and other championship coaches have played their 30+ stars you will find he plays them about the same or less(sometimes much less) than those great coaches played their thirtysomething stars.

Doc says they aren't ready, his track record since getting some talent here in Boston is okay by me. I think he's earned the right to play whoever he wants.

 

It is completely and utterly wrong, Nick - and ridiculous.

You want minutes on my team, you show me in practice. You loaf, don't grasp the systems, you don't play.

[cordobes]

I'm sorry, but I know a lot of people are of the firm belief that a coach can not adequately gauge what a player will do in agame atmosphere simply by watching them in practice but I think that is completely and utterly wrong. I don't buy it and no amount of pointing out the opposite opinion is going to change my mind.

I coached for years in a couple of sports, and I know it was only youth ball, but the mistakes that I saw at practice that I knew would come back to hurt a players performance didn't suddenly go away because they got playing time. That's just human nature people and it's not going to change just because of an increase in age or ability or an increase in competition.

Doc is coaching to win and gets paid for just that. The young players he feels are ready are playiong. The young players he feels aren't ready are not. Doc's job is not to placate the fans of the Boston celtics who don't like his methods or who feel they know more about basketball than he does. It is to win and right now, how can we really argue with the results.

All those people who were calling for POB are now witnessing that he can't crack the rotation in Toronto either. Maybe Doc is a lot better at gauging when a player is ready to help a championship caliber team win games, day in and day out, than many thinks he is. A few fancy dunks and a good NBDL game aside, Walker and Giddens have shown nothing in games and probably just as little in practice. Let's face it if they want minutes they have to play better than the people in front of them.

Doc has done a masterful job of keeping the Big Three's minutes down while at the same time winning games. As I posted elsewhere, comparing the amount of minutes he plays the Big Three as compared to the minutes that Popovich, Jack, Tomjonovich and other championship coaches have played their 30+ stars you will find he plays them about the same or less(sometimes much less) than those great coaches played their thirtysomething stars.

Doc says they aren't ready, his track record since getting some talent here in Boston is okay by me. I think he's earned the right to play whoever he wants.

 

It is completely and utterly wrong, Nick - and ridiculous.

You want minutes on my team, you show me in practice. You loaf, don't grasp the systems, you don't play.

Yeah, well said.

[cordobes]

Paul Pierce and Ray Allen are undoubtedly in front of them, and then there's... who?  For the third time, what happens when Paul Pierce can't play due to foul trouble?  Do you put Ray on LeBron for 36 minutes of the game?  I sure hope not.  Again, what if we have to put one of the rookies on the court in the playoffs? 

Yeah, that's why I've been saying a backup wing would have been my first priority and I've no idea how people thought a PG or a big man were greater needs.

I disagree with your solution though. Does anyone really know if the rookies are even NBA material? Are we going to trust on a 2nd round rookie with little to none NBA experience to play such a prominent role in the playoffs? I mean, it's certainly possible (anything is, as Garnett told us), but what are the odds?

[Fan from VT]

I'm sorry, but I know a lot of people are of the firm belief that a coach can not adequately gauge what a player will do in agame atmosphere simply by watching them in practice but I think that is completely and utterly wrong. I don't buy it and no amount of pointing out the opposite opinion is going to change my mind.

I coached for years in a couple of sports, and I know it was only youth ball, but the mistakes that I saw at practice that I knew would come back to hurt a players performance didn't suddenly go away because they got playing time. That's just human nature people and it's not going to change just because of an increase in age or ability or an increase in competition.

Doc is coaching to win and gets paid for just that. The young players he feels are ready are playiong. The young players he feels aren't ready are not. Doc's job is not to placate the fans of the Boston celtics who don't like his methods or who feel they know more about basketball than he does. It is to win and right now, how can we really argue with the results.

All those people who were calling for POB are now witnessing that he can't crack the rotation in Toronto either. Maybe Doc is a lot better at gauging when a player is ready to help a championship caliber team win games, day in and day out, than many thinks he is. A few fancy dunks and a good NBDL game aside, Walker and Giddens have shown nothing in games and probably just as little in practice. Let's face it if they want minutes they have to play better than the people in front of them.

Doc has done a masterful job of keeping the Big Three's minutes down while at the same time winning games. As I posted elsewhere, comparing the amount of minutes he plays the Big Three as compared to the minutes that Popovich, Jack, Tomjonovich and other championship coaches have played their 30+ stars you will find he plays them about the same or less(sometimes much less) than those great coaches played their thirtysomething stars.

Doc says they aren't ready, his track record since getting some talent here in Boston is okay by me. I think he's earned the right to play whoever he wants.

 

It is completely and utterly wrong, Nick - and ridiculous.

You want minutes on my team, you show me in practice. You loaf, don't grasp the systems, you don't play.

Yeah, well said.

Part of me does want to see Walker for a few minutes a game. On the other hand, Marbury looked solid tonight, and is strong enough to guard 2 guards for stretches while eddie guards opposing point guards and the two can switch on offense, so that helps with resting Paul and Ray.

To the point above, though, even though I'd like a couple regular season minutes for Walker to see what he's got, I have to admit that it's not as though Doc has a track record of burying young Celtics on the bench then having them explode elsewhere. Has anybody that Doc refused to play been traded away or switched teams, then been granted playing time and done well? Big Al is incredible, but he played a lot here and we knew that. Marcus Banks, Gerald, Orien, O'bryant, Delonte, and Gomes are all the same players elsewhere as they were here. That has to at least indicate that Doc has some recognition for which players can play.

[Atzar]

Paul Pierce and Ray Allen are undoubtedly in front of them, and then there's... who?  For the third time, what happens when Paul Pierce can't play due to foul trouble?  Do you put Ray on LeBron for 36 minutes of the game?  I sure hope not.  Again, what if we have to put one of the rookies on the court in the playoffs? 

Yeah, that's why I've been saying a backup wing would have been my first priority and I've no idea how people thought a PG or a big man were greater needs.

I disagree with your solution though. Does anyone really know if the rookies are even NBA material? Are we going to trust on a 2nd round rookie with little to none NBA experience to play such a prominent role in the playoffs? I mean, it's certainly possible (anything is, as Garnett told us), but what are the odds?

Do you have a better solution?  The deadline is tomorrow.  We aren't getting any new pieces.  So tell me:  who guards LeBron when Paul can't?  Do you let him eat Ray?  Do you put Garnett, or maybe Powe on him?  Do you go small, tell Rondo or Marbury to stay in front of him and pray that his jumpshot isn't finding bottom that day?  Whether we like it or not - most of us don't - the 2nd round rookie with little to no NBA experience is the only legit backup 3 on the roster.  I don't expect Scalabrine back this year (he can't hold Bron's jock anyway), and I'm not optimistic about TA either.  Unless TA makes it back sooner than I think he will, we just don't have the personnel.

I don't feel like you guys are really seeing what I'm saying here.  I'm not questioning Doc's decisions regarding the situation - although Danny is another matter entirely.  All I'm saying is that the possibility exists that Walker will need to spell Pierce on Bron for a few minutes in the playoffs, and I'd rather him have some regular season minutes under his belt in preparation for that emergency.

[xmuscularghandix]

The backup wing is TA, who is expected to be back by the playoffs.