Is Jaylen Brown still a Celtic?

[playdream]

When you look closely at it, Brown was pretty darn good when he was counted on to score in the playoffs last year. He and Tatum were counted on to carry a good sized load and both did a nice job of it. (Because everyone else was injured.)

Now we get back the 2 players from injury. Both players are veteran NBA scorers who have had the benefit of years in the league. We now tell the kids to be complementary players while playing beside these same 2 veteran scorers.

Both kids have never been just complementary players in their entire basketball lives. Not in high school or college. Both are too respectful to step on anyone's toes, and that may be the problem.

Tonight Brown score 9 points on 17 shots(most of the team) and Tatum 21pt on 14 shots

It's ECF g7 all over again, he shrinks when mostly needed while Tatum performed

No more "he sucks because he is asked to play complementary" excuses

I don't mind talking big, only if you can back it up, so far he doesn't

[nickagneta]

When you look closely at it, Brown was pretty darn good when he was counted on to score in the playoffs last year. He and Tatum were counted on to carry a good sized load and both did a nice job of it. (Because everyone else was injured.)

Now we get back the 2 players from injury. Both players are veteran NBA scorers who have had the benefit of years in the league. We now tell the kids to be complementary players while playing beside these same 2 veteran scorers.

Both kids have never been just complementary players in their entire basketball lives. Not in high school or college. Both are too respectful to step on anyone's toes, and that may be the problem.

Tonight Brown score 9 points on 17 shots(most of the team) and Tatum 21pt on 14 shots

It's ECF g7 all over again, he shrinks when mostly needed while Tatum performed

No more "he sucks because he is asked to play complementary" excuses

I don't mind talking big, only if you can back it up, so far he doesn't

Funny because just the game before Brown was putting up 17 2nd half points while Tatum was benched for most of the 2nd half because he sucked so bad.

It was ECF g6 all over again when Brown was trying to lead the Celtics to a win with just one other playing well and Tatum playing awful.

[gouki88]

When you look closely at it, Brown was pretty darn good when he was counted on to score in the playoffs last year. He and Tatum were counted on to carry a good sized load and both did a nice job of it. (Because everyone else was injured.)

Now we get back the 2 players from injury. Both players are veteran NBA scorers who have had the benefit of years in the league. We now tell the kids to be complementary players while playing beside these same 2 veteran scorers.

Both kids have never been just complementary players in their entire basketball lives. Not in high school or college. Both are too respectful to step on anyone's toes, and that may be the problem.

Tonight Brown score 9 points on 17 shots(most of the team) and Tatum 21pt on 14 shots

It's ECF g7 all over again, he shrinks when mostly needed while Tatum performed

No more "he sucks because he is asked to play complementary" excuses

I don't mind talking big, only if you can back it up, so far he doesn't

Funny because just the game before Brown was putting up 17 2nd half points while Tatum was benched for most of the 2nd half because he sucked so bad.

It was ECF g6 all over again when Brown was trying to lead the Celtics to a win with just one other playing well and Tatum playing awful.

Yeah, trying to make generalisations based off of one game is a very dangerous game to play. That being said, Jaylen's inability to hit from distance has been very disappointing (as has JT's).

[Celtics4ever]

Tonight Brown score 9 points on 17 shots(most of the team) and Tatum 21pt on 14 shots

It's ECF g7 all over again, he shrinks when mostly needed while Tatum performed

It is clear you don't watch every game see below in quotes.

Funny because just the game before Brown was putting up 17 2nd half points while Tatum was benched for most of the 2nd half because he sucked so bad.

I was thinking the same thing...

[Moranis]

Tatum hasn't exactly been setting the world on fire, but Brown has been much worse this year.

These are Brown's splits

41.9% 2PT, 27.7% 3PT, 62.1% FT, 11.7 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 1.4 apg, 0.5 spg, 0.5 bpg, 1.2 tpg, 2.7 fpg

Those are all significantly worse then last year and while 11 games isn't a season, it is starting to be a large enough sample size that concern should be setting in for everyone. 

While Tatum's shooting splits are worse, he is actually scoring more, rebounding more, and getting more assists then he was last year.  So he is at least being active and trying.  I have far more confidence that Tatum's shot is going to fall then I do in Brown turning it around.  Brown just looks lost and out of place out there most of the time. 

[nickagneta]

Tatum hasn't exactly been setting the world on fire, but Brown has been much worse this year.

These are Brown's splits

41.9% 2PT, 27.7% 3PT, 62.1% FT, 11.7 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 1.4 apg, 0.5 spg, 0.5 bpg, 1.2 tpg, 2.7 fpg

Those are all significantly worse then last year and while 11 games isn't a season, it is starting to be a large enough sample size that concern should be setting in for everyone. 

While Tatum's shooting splits are worse, he is actually scoring more, rebounding more, and getting more assists then he was last year.  So he is at least being active and trying.  I have far more confidence that Tatum's shot is going to fall then I do in Brown turning it around.  Brown just looks lost and out of place out there most of the time.

And Brown's defense has been spectacular while Tatum's has been awful. And saying Brown hasn't been trying is very absurd

[footey]

Tatum hasn't exactly been setting the world on fire, but Brown has been much worse this year.

These are Brown's splits

41.9% 2PT, 27.7% 3PT, 62.1% FT, 11.7 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 1.4 apg, 0.5 spg, 0.5 bpg, 1.2 tpg, 2.7 fpg

Those are all significantly worse then last year and while 11 games isn't a season, it is starting to be a large enough sample size that concern should be setting in for everyone. 

While Tatum's shooting splits are worse, he is actually scoring more, rebounding more, and getting more assists then he was last year.  So he is at least being active and trying.  I have far more confidence that Tatum's shot is going to fall then I do in Brown turning it around.  Brown just looks lost and out of place out there most of the time.

You post Brown’s splits to show how bad he’s been. Then you say Tatun’s Splits are even worse but at least he’s “trying”. They are both off to rocky starts. If anything Tatum sometimes trying too hard. He is making more bad decisions on the court than Brown. Both of them are pressing for sure, explaining some of the early season regression.

I think our slow start is partly attributable to reworking chemistry, and partly to exaggerating how good our team was last year. We barely escaped first round. Had we not, expectations for this season would be more realistic.

I warned to watch out for Toronto before season started. Kawhi has been superlative. But even when he sits they continue to dominate. Every player has a specific role which he excels at. Brad’s positionless basketball is not what they play.

Maybe the lost feeling you describe Jaylen having is a result of this style.

[Moranis]

Tatum hasn't exactly been setting the world on fire, but Brown has been much worse this year.

These are Brown's splits

41.9% 2PT, 27.7% 3PT, 62.1% FT, 11.7 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 1.4 apg, 0.5 spg, 0.5 bpg, 1.2 tpg, 2.7 fpg

Those are all significantly worse then last year and while 11 games isn't a season, it is starting to be a large enough sample size that concern should be setting in for everyone. 

While Tatum's shooting splits are worse, he is actually scoring more, rebounding more, and getting more assists then he was last year.  So he is at least being active and trying.  I have far more confidence that Tatum's shot is going to fall then I do in Brown turning it around.  Brown just looks lost and out of place out there most of the time.

You post Brown’s splits to show how bad he’s been. Then you say Tatun’s Splits are even worse but at least he’s “trying”. They are both off to rocky starts. If anything Tatum sometimes trying too hard. He is making more bad decisions on the court than Brown. Both of them are pressing for sure, explaining some of the early season regression.

I think our slow start is partly attributable to reworking chemistry, and partly to exaggerating how good our team was last year. We barely escaped first round. Had we not, expectations for this season would be more realistic.

I warned to watch out for Toronto before season started. Kawhi has been superlative. But even when he sits they continue to dominate. Every player has a specific role which he excels at. Brad’s positionless basketball is not what they play.

Maybe the lost feeling you describe Jaylen having is a result of this style.

I never said Tatum has been even worse than Brown, I said Tatum was worse then last year (shooting wise), but he has absolutely been better than Brown in that department this year.  Tatum is actually better than he was last year in several key areas, which isn't true of Brown.  Brown is down across the board

Brown has been awful.  Of the regular rotation, he has by far both the worst ORTG and the worst DRTG.  His ORTG is 11 points worse than Hayward (who is 2nd worst of the regular rotation).  He is the only member on the C's with a negative offensive win share and only Baynes among the regular rotation has less defensive win shares (of course Baynes has played in 2 less games).  Overall win shares per 48, only Yabu is worse (he is about 3 times worse than Wanamaker).  Hayward who is the next lowest rotation player has nearly 7 times more win share per 48 than Brown.  He has the worst TS% on the team (well yabu is worse, but that is it).

Brown has been BY FAR the worst Celtic this year.  It isn't close.  He has been terrible across the board.

[Moranis]

Tatum hasn't exactly been setting the world on fire, but Brown has been much worse this year.

These are Brown's splits

41.9% 2PT, 27.7% 3PT, 62.1% FT, 11.7 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 1.4 apg, 0.5 spg, 0.5 bpg, 1.2 tpg, 2.7 fpg

Those are all significantly worse then last year and while 11 games isn't a season, it is starting to be a large enough sample size that concern should be setting in for everyone. 

While Tatum's shooting splits are worse, he is actually scoring more, rebounding more, and getting more assists then he was last year.  So he is at least being active and trying.  I have far more confidence that Tatum's shot is going to fall then I do in Brown turning it around.  Brown just looks lost and out of place out there most of the time.

And Brown's defense has been spectacular while Tatum's has been awful. And saying Brown hasn't been trying is very absurd

Spectacular?  None of the metrics show this at all.  In fact they show the opposite, which matches my eye test.  Brown has been awful on both ends of the floor.  He has been better on defense then offense, but spectacular he has not been.  Brown gets lost out there.  He isn't engaging on the boards, and hasn't been working on offense except for a short burst here or there.  He is completely and utterly lost on both ends of the floor.  So that is what I meant by trying.  He doesn't have that Smart dog in him, where no matter what you know you are getting maximum effort.  Tatum has slipped up in that regard on occasion as well, but by and large, Tatum puts forth the effort, which is why his rebounds are up, his assists are up, his shot attempts are up (despite having to share the load more), etc.  Tatum is in a shooting slump, which I have confidence he will snap out of, Brown has just been bad, lost, etc., which I have no idea if he will snap out of because I've watched him go through stretches like this since he was on the C's. 

[footey]

Tatum hasn't exactly been setting the world on fire, but Brown has been much worse this year.

These are Brown's splits

41.9% 2PT, 27.7% 3PT, 62.1% FT, 11.7 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 1.4 apg, 0.5 spg, 0.5 bpg, 1.2 tpg, 2.7 fpg

Those are all significantly worse then last year and while 11 games isn't a season, it is starting to be a large enough sample size that concern should be setting in for everyone. 

While Tatum's shooting splits are worse, he is actually scoring more, rebounding more, and getting more assists then he was last year.  So he is at least being active and trying.  I have far more confidence that Tatum's shot is going to fall then I do in Brown turning it around.  Brown just looks lost and out of place out there most of the time.

You post Brown’s splits to show how bad he’s been. Then you say Tatun’s Splits are even worse but at least he’s “trying”. They are both off to rocky starts. If anything Tatum sometimes trying too hard. He is making more bad decisions on the court than Brown. Both of them are pressing for sure, explaining some of the early season regression.

I think our slow start is partly attributable to reworking chemistry, and partly to exaggerating how good our team was last year. We barely escaped first round. Had we not, expectations for this season would be more realistic.

I warned to watch out for Toronto before season started. Kawhi has been superlative. But even when he sits they continue to dominate. Every player has a specific role which he excels at. Brad’s positionless basketball is not what they play.

Maybe the lost feeling you describe Jaylen having is a result of this style.

I never said Tatum has been even worse than Brown, I said Tatum was worse then last year (shooting wise), but he has absolutely been better than Brown in that department this year.  Tatum is actually better than he was last year in several key areas, which isn't true of Brown.  Brown is down across the board

Brown has been awful.  Of the regular rotation, he has by far both the worst ORTG and the worst DRTG.  His ORTG is 11 points worse than Hayward (who is 2nd worst of the regular rotation).  He is the only member on the C's with a negative offensive win share and only Baynes among the regular rotation has less defensive win shares (of course Baynes has played in 2 less games).  Overall win shares per 48, only Yabu is worse (he is about 3 times worse than Wanamaker).  Hayward who is the next lowest rotation player has nearly 7 times more win share per 48 than Brown.  He has the worst TS% on the team (well yabu is worse, but that is it).

Brown has been BY FAR the worst Celtic this year.  It isn't close.  He has been terrible across the board.

You posted similar doomsday predictions about Rozier less than a year ago as I recall. You over-rely on statistical evidence and twist it into your story. Sometimes your story is right. Sometimes it’s wrong. Here I think it is too early to tell. But your bashing of Brown is a bit much. Do you watch all the games? Just curious.

[playdream]

When you look closely at it, Brown was pretty darn good when he was counted on to score in the playoffs last year. He and Tatum were counted on to carry a good sized load and both did a nice job of it. (Because everyone else was injured.)

Now we get back the 2 players from injury. Both players are veteran NBA scorers who have had the benefit of years in the league. We now tell the kids to be complementary players while playing beside these same 2 veteran scorers.

Both kids have never been just complementary players in their entire basketball lives. Not in high school or college. Both are too respectful to step on anyone's toes, and that may be the problem.

Tonight Brown score 9 points on 17 shots(most of the team) and Tatum 21pt on 14 shots

It's ECF g7 all over again, he shrinks when mostly needed while Tatum performed

No more "he sucks because he is asked to play complementary" excuses

I don't mind talking big, only if you can back it up, so far he doesn't

Funny because just the game before Brown was putting up 17 2nd half points while Tatum was benched for most of the 2nd half because he sucked so bad.

It was ECF g6 all over again when Brown was trying to lead the Celtics to a win with just one other playing well and Tatum playing awful.

Tatum was in a terrible shooting slump in the Suns game, but he still fought and contribute to a team high 15+ , Brown scored 17 only because Suns paint defense is one of the worst, we all see what happened when they faced real defense last night

You can have slumps even if you'are a star but you can't shrink in the biggest games like the elimination game, again Tatum performed in the biggest stage while Brown is no where to be find

[playdream]

Tatum hasn't exactly been setting the world on fire, but Brown has been much worse this year.

These are Brown's splits

41.9% 2PT, 27.7% 3PT, 62.1% FT, 11.7 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 1.4 apg, 0.5 spg, 0.5 bpg, 1.2 tpg, 2.7 fpg

Those are all significantly worse then last year and while 11 games isn't a season, it is starting to be a large enough sample size that concern should be setting in for everyone. 

While Tatum's shooting splits are worse, he is actually scoring more, rebounding more, and getting more assists then he was last year.  So he is at least being active and trying.  I have far more confidence that Tatum's shot is going to fall then I do in Brown turning it around.  Brown just looks lost and out of place out there most of the time.

And Brown's defense has been spectacular while Tatum's has been awful. And saying Brown hasn't been trying is very absurd

Spectacular?  None of the metrics show this at all.  In fact they show the opposite, which matches my eye test.  Brown has been awful on both ends of the floor.  He has been better on defense then offense, but spectacular he has not been.  Brown gets lost out there.  He isn't engaging on the boards, and hasn't been working on offense except for a short burst here or there.  He is completely and utterly lost on both ends of the floor.  So that is what I meant by trying. He doesn't have that Smart dog in him, where no matter what you know you are getting maximum effort.  Tatum has slipped up in that regard on occasion as well, but by and large, Tatum puts forth the effort, which is why his rebounds are up, his assists are up, his shot attempts are up (despite having to share the load more), etc.  Tatum is in a shooting slump, which I have confidence he will snap out of, Brown has just been bad, lost, etc., which I have no idea if he will snap out of because I've watched him go through stretches like this since he was on the C's.

This exactly , Brown has improved his one on one defense and shooting but that's almost the only thing to talk about so far, he looks lost out there

[nickagneta]

The idea that Brown isn't trying because he isn't getting stats is patently absurd. Who was it that shut down the Greek Freak almost all game? Who was shutting down Booker in the first half until he was put on TJ Warren because others were getting lit up by Warren? Who shut down Mitchell in the first half until he was switched to Ingles for most of the second half?  Who is always given the job to defend the best wing defender on the opposition causing his defensive rating to be higher? And who is usually given the easiest player to guard on the opposition? I will give you a hint, it's not the same guy that is the answer to all the other questions.

And as for his passing did you see that bounce pass down most of the length of the court to a wide open Hayward last night? What about all the excellent passes out to the perimeter when he drives and is cut off? Brown almost never is caught mid air not knowing what to do anymore. Brown's BBIQ is very good. He makes smarter plays year in and year out. And his handle is way better than his rookie year.

And Brown has been used mostly as a 4th or 5th option with the starters so of course his shots and scoring are down. And if Tatum is in a slump, then so is Brown. But at least Brown is taking mostly good shots. Tatum is passing up open threes to go iso and take awful mid range jumpers. If the ball sticks on any of the starting fives hands it's Tatum's so he can do his iso thing.

I have high hopes for both but neither is playing good overall basketball and one isn't really playing much better than the other.

[Celtics4ever]

This exactly , Brown has improved his one on one defense and shooting but that's almost the only thing to talk about so far, he looks lost out there

I like how folks ignore the good games he has had, and only see the bad.   Totally unfair to Brown.   The whole team looks lost at points right now.

[playdream]

This exactly , Brown has improved his one on one defense and shooting but that's almost the only thing to talk about so far, he looks lost out there

I like how folks ignore the good games he has had, and only see the bad.   Totally unfair to Brown.   The whole team looks lost at points right now.

No one has been unfair on Brown, just being objective, other players is getting their share of blame, Brown can't be the exception