CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: ScoobyDoo on January 31, 2013, 06:11:25 PM
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We will miss a lot by not having Rondo on the floor. But one area I think we gain big time is with the perimeter D that Bradley and Lee play;
1. They take no plays off on D
2. Bradley can bully point guards rather than get banged up by bigger twos every game.
3. Lee is a better fit defensively for most twos and though a bit smallish, he's generally quicker than them.
I love Rondo but one of the biggest things that bothered me about his game is that he often times played disinterested, matador D and his man waltzed by him a lot, with generally very negative consequences for our overall team D.
I'm interested to see if Bradley and Lee can sustain the effort and if they can get some real rhythm together defensively. If they can it could go a long way towards us becoming a lock down team defensively again.
Now, if we only had a young 7 foot center to play along side of KG as the second line of defense after bradley and Lee's harassing perimeter D. :)
It would be great if Melo were ready...
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Defense is dandy. Except, we need to prove we have a guy who can take the ball across center court without tripping over his own legs. And preferably taking less than 10 seconds to get us into an offensive set.
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I don't understand Doc/Danny wanting to give Bradley as much PG responsibilities as he'd been given.
Lee, Terry, Barbosa are all superior ball-handlers and take care of the ball much better.
Keep Avery at his role, nothing has to change for him.
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They need to play ball on both side of the court.
They must improve their offense- specially those wide open 3s.
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They play great defense. Terry and Barbosa play great offense. I like the rotation, but its not championship-caliber without Rondo.
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They play great defense. Terry and Barbosa play great offense. I like the rotation, but its not championship-caliber without Rondo.
Great defense by Terry and Barbosa is a bit overboard. They've been active, but still quite flawed.
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They play great defense. Terry and Barbosa play great offense. I like the rotation, but its not championship-caliber without Rondo.
Great defense by Terry and Barbosa is a bit overboard. They've been active, but still quite flawed.
I think you misread.
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Yeah, agreed on the offensive end, but...
The defensive pressure that Bradley and Lee apply is impressive. I also like that Bradley can bully Point guards physically rather than being undersized at the two.
I would prefer we stay with the Bradley / Lee starting duo, let the team manage the ball handling as a unit.
I also think practice makes perfect and both Bradley and lee will gradually improve with there ability to get us into our offense.
If they have a night where they're really struggling, bring in Terry or Barbosa earlier.
All that being said, if, for example, Calderon became available, he would be nice to have in the rotation as a ball handler / play maker.
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Or if we could pick up a more pure point fairly cheaply via trade I wouldn't be opposed to it.
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They play great defense. Terry and Barbosa play great offense. I like the rotation, but its not championship-caliber without Rondo.
Great defense by Terry and Barbosa is a bit overboard. They've been active, but still quite flawed.
I think you misread.
Oh, completely lol
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We will miss a lot by not having Rondo on the floor. But one area I think we gain big time is with the perimeter D that Bradley and Lee play;
1. They take no plays off on D
2. Bradley can bully point guards rather than get banged up by bigger twos every game.
3. Lee is a better fit defensively for most twos and though a bit smallish, he's generally quicker than them.
I love Rondo but one of the biggest things that bothered me about his game is that he often times played disinterested, matador D and his man waltzed by him a lot, with generally very negative consequences for our overall team D.
People here are wildly overstating any issues on defense Rondo has.
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Lee is not really undersized.
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He seems slightly undersized to me at the two but if not, even better...
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He seems slightly undersized to me at the two but if not, even better...
Compared to Bradley, he's big at least.
He's a solid 6-4 without shoes I believe.
Big enough for most SGs and enough to be a SF at times.
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We will miss a lot by not having Rondo on the floor. But one area I think we gain big time is with the perimeter D that Bradley and Lee play;
1. They take no plays off on D
2. Bradley can bully point guards rather than get banged up by bigger twos every game.
3. Lee is a better fit defensively for most twos and though a bit smallish, he's generally quicker than them.
I love Rondo but one of the biggest things that bothered me about his game is that he often times played disinterested, matador D and his man waltzed by him a lot, with generally very negative consequences for our overall team D.
People here are wildly overstating any issues on defense Rondo has.
I've watched pretty much every play of every game and I don't think how bad Rondo's defense has been can be wildly overstated. It is dreadful. He is a turnstile.
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Defense is dandy. Except, we need to prove we have a guy who can take the ball across center court without tripping over his own legs. And preferably taking less than 10 seconds to get us into an offensive set.
Take 10 seconds to get it over and pass it off vs. get it over in 3 seconds then dribble the ball in place for 7 seconds makes no difference to me.
In the last two games, I haven't seen us have more problems getting a quality shot off before the last seconds in the shot clock than I did with Rondo at point. That might happen eventually, but until that happens, I have no problem with our current ball handling.
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We will miss a lot by not having Rondo on the floor. But one area I think we gain big time is with the perimeter D that Bradley and Lee play;
1. They take no plays off on D
2. Bradley can bully point guards rather than get banged up by bigger twos every game.
3. Lee is a better fit defensively for most twos and though a bit smallish, he's generally quicker than them.
I love Rondo but one of the biggest things that bothered me about his game is that he often times played disinterested, matador D and his man waltzed by him a lot, with generally very negative consequences for our overall team D.
People here are wildly overstating any issues on defense Rondo has.
Are you serious? Rondo is a terrible defender. I feel bad about the injury but ive been waiting for 4 years to see this team play without Rondo. I always thought it would come from a trade.
This team will be be better off without Rondo. Addition by Subtraction and by the end of the season it will be obvious to everyone.
Lee and Bradley are like a breath of fresh air. Advancing the ball with the pass,running hard and good perimeter defense. Tommy loved it.
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Yeah FatJohnReturns, I agree regarding Rondo's D.
There is no questions Rondo can be an elite defender, when he wants to...
The problem I have is that he seems very lackadaisical a large part of the time on D. I watched a one play in a recent game where I think the kid "Ivan" from Atlanta was barreling up the court and Rondo could easily have made him pick up his dribble but instead he let the guy go by him and then tried to reach around for a steal. Result - dunk or something at the rim.
101 says "stop the ball"...
Anyway, I know some people say he's moving his man towards the help in the half court by letting them go by. What I see is a lot of easy baskets because of it.
Bradley and Lee first and foremost try like hell to saty in front of their guys and if they do get beat or picked off by a screen, they then try like hell to catch up to their man.
Generally once a guy blows by Rondo, he's usually not exhausting himself pursuing them and trying to catch up.
The most frustrating part of it is that he's fully capable of playing elite D any time he wants.
if he dedicated himself to the defensive end of the floor like KG does, he "would be" the best all around point guard in the league, period.
And I don't buy that he has to conserve his energy. It's been the same when he's had no one behind him versus this year when he's had 3 legit back ups in Bradley, Barbosa and Terry...
I'm not saying he's a "horrible" defender, but his effort and grit on that side of the ball, in comparison to Bradley, Lee, KG and Pierce is pathetic.
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Defense is dandy. Except, we need to prove we have a guy who can take the ball across center court without tripping over his own legs. And preferably taking less than 10 seconds to get us into an offensive set.
Take 10 seconds to get it over and pass it off vs. get it over in 3 seconds then dribble the ball in place for 7 seconds makes no difference to me.
In the last two games, I haven't seen us have more problems getting a quality shot off before the last seconds in the shot clock than I did with Rondo at point. That might happen eventually, but until that happens, I have no problem with our current ball handling.
Ignoring the end of game shot clock violation like the one vs the Kings, we had 24 shot clock violations in our first 43 games and we've had 4 in the last two games. The fact that you didn't notice it doesn't seem to mean it isn't happening.
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Yeah FatJohnReturns, I agree regarding Rondo's D.
There is no questions Rondo can be an elite defender, when he wants to...
The problem I have is that he seems very lackadaisical a large part of the time on D. I watched a one play in a recent game where I think the kid "Ivan" from Atlanta was barreling up the court and Rondo could easily have made him pick up his dribble but instead he let the guy go by him and then tried to reach around for a steal. Result - dunk or something at the rim.
101 says "stop the ball"...
Just curious, but how far from the basket was the play? Ivan's got about 7 inches and 60 pounds on Rondo, if he's barreling up the court towards Rondo I don't see a lot of good things happening if Rondo tries to "stop the ball".
Anyway, I know some people say he's moving his man towards the help in the half court by letting them go by. What I see is a lot of easy baskets because of it.
There were a lot of easy baskets earlier in the year because the (mainly) newer players weren't rotating when they should.
And I don't buy that he has to conserve his energy. It's been the same when he's had no one behind him versus this year when he's had 3 legit back ups in Bradley, Barbosa and Terry...
Whether you buy it or not, Rondo's playing a career high in minutes this year, legit backups or not. In fact he's had to struggle through injuries and play big minutes when he was clearly slowed from those injuries, just like in years past.
And yes, I know, he probably played quite a bit of "lazy defense" when he was hobbling around on the court.
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Defense is dandy. Except, we need to prove we have a guy who can take the ball across center court without tripping over his own legs. And preferably taking less than 10 seconds to get us into an offensive set.
Take 10 seconds to get it over and pass it off vs. get it over in 3 seconds then dribble the ball in place for 7 seconds makes no difference to me.
In the last two games, I haven't seen us have more problems getting a quality shot off before the last seconds in the shot clock than I did with Rondo at point. That might happen eventually, but until that happens, I have no problem with our current ball handling.
Ignoring the end of game shot clock violation like the one vs the Kings, we had 24 shot clock violations in our first 43 games and we've had 4 in the last two games. The fact that you didn't notice it doesn't seem to mean it isn't happening.
My count has 3 shot clock violations in 2 games (more like 2.5 if were considering the OTs and intensity of Miami) if we're ignoring the one at the end of the SAC game. Maybe I'm missing one, I dunno. I'm typically a numbers guy, but my point here wasn't particularly about violations, it was about the quality of shot (which is certainly more subjective). Rondo has shot more 3pta this season (1.3 per game) than any time in his career. And I think the reason for this increase is because Rondo has to jack it up more at the end of the shot clock because we're sometimes unable to find a quality shot in the first 21 seconds of the possession. I noticed this quite a bit in games previously and have noticed it less in the last two games. It really will take more time to tell for sure though since its only been 2 games.
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We will miss a lot by not having Rondo on the floor. But one area I think we gain big time is with the perimeter D that Bradley and Lee play;
1. They take no plays off on D
2. Bradley can bully point guards rather than get banged up by bigger twos every game.
3. Lee is a better fit defensively for most twos and though a bit smallish, he's generally quicker than them.
I love Rondo but one of the biggest things that bothered me about his game is that he often times played disinterested, matador D and his man waltzed by him a lot, with generally very negative consequences for our overall team D.
I'm interested to see if Bradley and Lee can sustain the effort and if they can get some real rhythm together defensively. If they can it could go a long way towards us becoming a lock down team defensively again.
Now, if we only had a young 7 foot center to play along side of KG as the second line of defense after bradley and Lee's harassing perimeter D. :)
It would be great if Melo were ready...
If we play something like .700 ball from now on, we are going to all know that a lot of the instincts that a huge number of posters here was right: Rondo WAS playing matador d, on a team that had spotty defense near the bucket. So much for high bb iq. I just don't understand how he couldn't have known.
Meanwhile, KG is still great at man to man but also help d. So if penetration is slowed down by solid perimeter d, KG can get to where he needs to be. As we see now, Sully has been solid on d and Green is also a good perimeter defender.
If we can avoid further injuries I think we can win 48 games. I don't know if Rajon was going to snap out of it but he wasn't going to soon enough for the team to flourish in the regular season
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PG by committee. All 4 mentioned are capable ball handlers. Offense far less stagnant right now. Pierce can take on PG duties as needed. We have two HOFers we can run our offense through on any given possession.
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I just want to ask one of the many posters who are appalled by Rondo's defense to name an elite offensive NBA point guard who you think plays lock down perimeter defense?
I have frequently asked this question when folks rail about Rondo's "lazy" defense, but nobody ever has a reasonable response. There's a reason that opposing NBA coaches vote Rondo to the NBA all defensive team every year. It's because he's a premier defender in the league at his position.
Opposing NBA point guards get into the lane. That's almost unavoidable. There are too many picks set and these guys (even the non-elite ones) are simply too good with the ball in their hands to not be able to utilize screens and get into the lane.
Rondo, unlike many NBA point guards, however, is always a threat to make a defensive play, whether the opposing point guard is in the lane or not. That's what makes him elite defensively.
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I love how they kept D-Wade on check simultaneously
Wade scored 20, but he was 6-20 with 6 TOs...thats solid D in my opinion
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We will miss a lot by not having Rondo on the floor. But one area I think we gain big time is with the perimeter D that Bradley and Lee play;
1. They take no plays off on D
2. Bradley can bully point guards rather than get banged up by bigger twos every game.
3. Lee is a better fit defensively for most twos and though a bit smallish, he's generally quicker than them.
I love Rondo but one of the biggest things that bothered me about his game is that he often times played disinterested, matador D and his man waltzed by him a lot, with generally very negative consequences for our overall team D.
I'm interested to see if Bradley and Lee can sustain the effort and if they can get some real rhythm together defensively. If they can it could go a long way towards us becoming a lock down team defensively again.
Now, if we only had a young 7 foot center to play along side of KG as the second line of defense after bradley and Lee's harassing perimeter D. :)
It would be great if Melo were ready...
If we play something like .700 ball from now on, we are going to all know that a lot of the instincts that a huge number of posters here was right: Rondo WAS playing matador d, on a team that had spotty defense near the bucket. So much for high bb iq. I just don't understand how he couldn't have known.
Meanwhile, KG is still great at man to man but also help d. So if penetration is slowed down by solid perimeter d, KG can get to where he needs to be. As we see now, Sully has been solid on d and Green is also a good perimeter defender.
If we can avoid further injuries I think we can win 48 games. I don't know if Rajon was going to snap out of it but he wasn't going to soon enough for the team to flourish in the regular season
You think the Celtics can go 26 and 11 with 20 road games left and 10 back to backs? They're terrible away from home (7-14), so at best they'd maybe win half...that's already 10 losses right there. They also play a lot of good teams; half are against the Clippers, Bulls, Nuggets (2), Warriors, Thunder, Heat (2), Grizzlies, Knicks (2), Pacers (2), Nets, Hawks (2), and Portland.
Sorry, I don't see it happening. I'd love to be wrong though...
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I love how they kept D-Wade on check simultaneously
Wade scored 20, but he was 6-20 with 6 TOs...thats solid D in my opinion
No sir, he did not... he had only 17pts! ;)
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Were not saying Rondo can't play great D. Were saying he plays hard D only when HE feels like it. I would have to question the Bball IQ of anyone that disagrees with what the majority of posters in this thread are saying. It's obvious.
I love the guy also which is what p---es me off so much about it.
And to the poster looking for a star point that plays, played D all of the time. John Stockton comes to mind. Oscar Robinson as well. Yes they are throw backs.
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Were not saying Rondo can't play great D. Were saying he plays hard D only when HE feels like it. I would have to question the Bball IQ of anyone that disagrees with what the majority of posters in this thread are saying. It's obvious.
I love the guy also which is what p---es me off so much about it.
And to the poster looking for a star point that plays, played D all of the time. John Stockton comes to mind. Oscar Robinson as well. Yes they are throw backs.
I question the basketball IQ of someone who bases his opinions and observations solely on what the majority have to say.
I find it highly amusing that the best you could do was to compare Rondo negatively to a couple of Hall of Famers who played in previous decades.
I'll have to re-phrase my question. What star point guards playing today do you consider to play lock down defense?
I ask this not to call out point guards. I'm not claiming that Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook, Tony Parker, Deron Williams, Derrick Rose, Kyrie Irving, and Steph Curry are all lazy players, but rather I'm trying to point out that it's virtually impossible to be a full time elite, offensive minded point guard and play lock down defense for 35 plus minutes a game over the course of an NBA season.
Rondo is being judged by a different standard than anyone else. I'm just trying to point that out.
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Defense is dandy. Except, we need to prove we have a guy who can take the ball across center court without tripping over his own legs. And preferably taking less than 10 seconds to get us into an offensive set.
Take 10 seconds to get it over and pass it off vs. get it over in 3 seconds then dribble the ball in place for 7 seconds makes no difference to me.
In the last two games, I haven't seen us have more problems getting a quality shot off before the last seconds in the shot clock than I did with Rondo at point. That might happen eventually, but until that happens, I have no problem with our current ball handling.
Not really the same, when the play is getting someone open off the ball. When you take 10 seconds before you even start running a play, we have an issue.
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To "Bballtim" -
The play I was talking about was with Ivan Johnson coming off a rebound and headed the other way. Based on player positions, Rondo was the first Celtic in line who could have met Ivan and stopped or slowed down the progression of the ball. Instead of hedging in front of the guy in a Basketball 101 move, Rondo chose to let him fly by and then try to slap the ball away from Ivan from behind.
Rondo could have easily turned him and forced him to give up the ball at half court, instead he played it "matador" style. This is the same thing he often does in his half court defense as well. It is not what you see Bradley and Lee doing.
The first rule in defense is stay in front of your guy if at all possible. The next is stay between your man and the ball, it's simple stuff..and it's what Bradley, Lee and KG do on a possession by possession basis. It is not what Rondo does.
I played guard - I big man coming the court is a turnover waiting to happen. It's an opportunity - you can easily stop these guys without getting hurt, that's the advantage your speed and agility as a smaller guy gives you.
Rotations leading to easy baskets:
I don't disagree about this as a contributing factor to more easy baskets early in our season. But it does not negate the first problem of Rondo often times not staying in front of his man in the first place.
Season high in minutes:
Rondo may be playing a season high in minutes but he's also 27. Injuries are a contributing factor - understood. But even when he's healthy he has a real tendency to get "lazy' on D.
Rondo is one of my favorite players ever to wear a Celtics uniform. I also think he has all the tools he needs to go down as one of the best point guards of all time, top 10. But he won't get that distinction unless he puts as much focus into playing fundamental 101 basketball on a consistent basis on the defensive end as he does trying to make the unique unbelievable assists he does on the offensive end.
I find this aspect of Rondo's game incredibly frustrating as a fan mostly because he is probably capable of playing KG type D at the point whenever he wishes - but he doesn't wish to do it enough.
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To "Bballtim" -
The play I was talking about was with Ivan Johnson coming off a rebound and headed the other way. Based on player positions, Rondo was the first Celtic in line who could have met Ivan and stopped or slowed down the progression of the ball. Instead of hedging in front of the guy in a Basketball 101 move, Rondo chose to let him fly by and then try to slap the ball away from Ivan from behind.
Rondo could have easily turned him and forced him to give up the ball at half court, instead he played it "matador" style. This is the same thing he often does in his half court defense as well. It is not what you see Bradley and Lee doing.
The first rule in defense is stay in front of your guy if at all possible. The next is stay between your man and the ball, it's simple stuff..and it's what Bradley, Lee and KG do on a possession by possession basis. It is not what Rondo does.
I played guard - I big man coming the court is a turnover waiting to happen. It's an opportunity - you can easily stop these guys without getting hurt, that's the advantage your speed and agility as a smaller guy gives you.
Rotations leading to easy baskets:
I don't disagree about this as a contributing factor to more easy baskets early in our season. But it does not negate the first problem of Rondo often times not staying in front of his man in the first place.
Season high in minutes:
Rondo may be playing a season high in minutes but he's also 27. Injuries are a contributing factor - understood. But even when he's healthy he has a real tendency to get "lazy' on D.
Rondo is one of my favorite players ever to wear a Celtics uniform. I also think he has all the tools he needs to go down as one of the best point guards of all time, top 10. But he won't get that distinction unless he puts as much focus into playing fundamental 101 basketball on a consistent basis on the defensive end as he does trying to make the unique unbelievable assists he does on the offensive end.
I find this aspect of Rondo's game incredibly frustrating as a fan mostly because he is probably capable of playing KG type D at the point whenever he wishes - but he doesn't wish to do it enough.
a) I don't remember the play you were referring to. I'd have to see it to comment on it.
b) I still think that most of the time a guard tries to get past Rondo they call for a pick to do it. Sometimes they'll make a few attempts at him before calling for the pick. You could claim he doesn't fight through picks well but that's a separate discussion.
c) The point about the minutes was that you were claiming that he didn't have to worry about tiring out because of all of our guards. My point is that, in spite of those other players he's playing a career high for minutes so they aren't exactly getting him more rest.
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We will miss a lot by not having Rondo on the floor. But one area I think we gain big time is with the perimeter D that Bradley and Lee play;
1. They take no plays off on D
2. Bradley can bully point guards rather than get banged up by bigger twos every game.
3. Lee is a better fit defensively for most twos and though a bit smallish, he's generally quicker than them.
I love Rondo but one of the biggest things that bothered me about his game is that he often times played disinterested, matador D and his man waltzed by him a lot, with generally very negative consequences for our overall team D.
I'm interested to see if Bradley and Lee can sustain the effort and if they can get some real rhythm together defensively. If they can it could go a long way towards us becoming a lock down team defensively again.
Now, if we only had a young 7 foot center to play along side of KG as the second line of defense after bradley and Lee's harassing perimeter D. :)
It would be great if Melo were ready...
wait, you mean rondo takes plays off? Who would have thunk that? ;)
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BBall, yeah, wish I could upload it as an example, would be easier to explain.
Fair enough re the picks and I do agree / think that he's not nearly as aggressive or good at fighting through picks as, for example, Bradley is. maybe it's a matter of tenacity / will or it could be just not a strength for Rondo. But my gut tells me Rondo could do almost anything he wants to do on a court from an athletic standpoint.
Point taken on the minutes issue. I'd place that on Doc then, because, whether we're winning or losing, I think the coach should find the way to get his best players enough rest.
But again, don't get me wrong, I love Rondo's game in general. I would use him much differently than Doc does, particularly in the half court.
On D, I just think he's reaching about 60/70 % of his potential on a night to night basis - I think he is capable of KG level D at the point position.
On a separate issue - I think a problem for Rondo since he's been here is that Ainge has yet to find him a legit back up point on a year to year basis.
I think that's been a real mistake. And outside of Posey and now Green the same can be said for Pierce. Another mistake.
When you're lucky enough to get players like KG, Pierce and Rondo - I would think Job A,B & C would be to first get long term, viable back ups for them, not patchwork it. Then build the rest of the team from there...
I think Rondo's suffered because of that, having to play through injuries more often than he maybe should have.
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I also have to say that I have seen Rondo play killer D, through picks and in general, but only in spurts during a game or spurts of games period.
KG does it every night, Bradley every night. If Rondo did it every night, he goes to all world in book, best point in the game.
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Fair enough re the picks and I do agree / think that he's not nearly as aggressive or good at fighting through picks as, for example, Bradley is. maybe it's a matter of tenacity / will or it could be just not a strength for Rondo. But my gut tells me Rondo could do almost anything he wants to do on a court from an athletic standpoint.
While Rondo could probably put more of an effort in getting through picks I think it has limited value because the guy he's guarding is headed straight to the rim and Rondo would have to catch them from behind.
Point taken on the minutes issue. I'd place that on Doc then, because, whether we're winning or losing, I think the coach should find the way to get his best players enough rest.
I don't understand this either. I'd point to the game in Sacramento where Rondo missed the previous game with a hip injury. He was moving around pretty badly when I was watching and the Kings won handily. Rondo led the team in minutes that game, probably not a good idea.