Full Basketball HOF Class of '24 Announced

[Moranis]

I don't think Kobe was as big as Vince in 1999-01. He was huge before Vince came into the league and then Vince blew him out of the water in 1999-00. Vince became the heir apparent to MJ over Kobe during this period.

Obviously, this didn't last. Kobe retook top spot over Vince. Probably in 2002 onwards.

and yet Kobe was making higher All NBA teams during that stretch.  Vince was certainly popular with fans, but it didn't translate on the court.

I may be misinterpreting but it sounds like you are suggesting that All NBA teams are objectively determined.  Probably a better measure than fan love, but All-NBA is deeply impacted by personal preferences in addition to the quality of competition at the particular position - which is extremely era dependent.  Kobe likely had a bit of an edge being in LA and on great teams.  I don't think Vince was Kobe, but there is some space between Kobe as a HOFer and the guys who squeak in.  To me, Vince is a pretty obvious Hall of Fame player. My favorite player in my youth was JoJo White, Hall of Famer. He had nowhere near the HOF credentials of Vince Carter, other than playing on two championship teams alongside HOFers Cowens and Havlicek.

JoJo White had 2 2nd Team All NBA and played in an era where there wasn't a 3rd Team or he would have had a couple of those.  Those 2 2nd Team are better than Carter and he had 1 less all star game.  Yes, he played on a much better team, but individually he had every bit of the accolades that Vince did.  That said, JoJo shouldn't be in the HOF eother.

[Who]

I was thinking T-Mac has a big advantage in playoff performances. Not in team success (Vince) but in individual performances. They are actually closer than I expected.

T-Mac = 38gms 28.5ppg 6.9rpg 6.2apg 2.4 stocks 3.2 TO
     = 43% FG% 30% 3PT% 75.6% FT% 51.7% TS%

Including the one 3 game playoff series for TOR didn't make much of a difference. T-Mac went from 28.5ppg to 29.5ppg. His rpg, apg (+0.3apg), stocks (+0.1), and TOs stayed the same. His shooting percentages the same also.

Vince = 42gms 25.9ppg 6.9rpg 5.2apg 2.4 stocks 2.7 TO
      = 41.8% FG% 33.2% 3PT% 78% FT% 51.6% TS%

Interesting to see the games played as almost identical with 42 to 38 playoff games in Vince's favour. This despite Vince winning 3 playoff series to 0 for McGrady. McGrady's teams made the playoffs more regularly with 7 trips to the postseason to 5 for Vince. This only includes their careers up until 2008 when both were still in their primes.

It is also interesting to note the similar TS%. McGrady averaged more points at +2.6ppg or +3.6ppg if we discount his first playoff appearance before he became a legit star. Same rebounds. Same scoring efficiency. McGrady +1.0apg with an extra 0.5 TOs. Fair trade off. 2:1 AST:TO ratio. Solid for a wing.

[Who]

I thought McGrady's playoff resume would look better than it did because I remember putting up stellar numbers in the post-season and being among the all-time leaders in scoring per game despite failing to get out of the first round.

A closer look at his playoff series performances is interesting.

2001 = lost 3-1 to Milwaukee Bucks. That was the great Bucks team that went to the ECF with Ray Allen, Sam Cassell and Glenn Robinson. No shame in losing to them. ORL was overmatched. McGrady had only a 48% TS% but great per game numbers at 33.8ppg 8.3apg 6.5rpg.

2002 = lost 3-1 to Charlotte Hornets. Both teams finished with 44 wins on the season. No Jamal Mashburn for Hornets as he was injured. He only played half a season. They were 23-16 with him and 21-22 without him. Baron Davis was there. Even matchup with ORL having the best individual player. Maybe slight advantage ORL. Tracy had a big series with 30.8ppg, 6.3rpg and 5.5apg. This was the first of a three year run with good TS% at 55-56% all three years. Baron Davis went for 25ppg 9apg 9rpg and 2.8spg to lead Charlotte over Orlando. Mike Miller had a vanishing act which hurt ORL.

2003 = lost 4-3 to DET. This was the year before DET won the title. DET were a better team with 50 wins to 43 for ORL. Tayshaun wasn't a regular yet. No Sheed. But they had Chauncey, Rip and Big Ben. Chauncey not quite a star yet (16ppg 4apg on the season). Still they were a great defensive team thanks to Ben and their two guards both went for 20+ppg in the playoff series. ORL were leading 3-1 before getting hammered in each of the final 3 games (31pt loss, 15pt loss, 15pt loss). T-Mac was impressive with 31.7ppg 6.7rpg 4.7apg. And in the second year of his three year run of positive TS% at 56%.

2005 = played Dirk's Mavs. First year without Nash. Yao emerging as a star but not the top ten player he would become. Only an 18ppg 8rpg guy that season. DAL better W-L record at 58 wins to 51 wins. I would consider it a fairly even matchup and it was a tight 7 game series. T-Mac would have maybe his best playoff series at 30.7ppg 7.4rpg 6.7apg 3 stocks with strong defense on Dirk. Final year of his 3 year run of positive TS% at 55.6%. Dirk would score 21ppg but on only 35% FG% 47% TS%. McGrady had out-dueled him. DAL supporting cast out-performed HOU. DAL 3rd to 5th scorers all scored 13-14ppg (older 6th man Stackhouse, older role player era Finley, pre-star Josh Howard) while Houston's averaged 8ppg-11ppg (old man Wesley, Sura, Jon Barry, Mike James).   

This is where McGrady's playoff resume takes a disappointing dip. He has two consecutive postseasons against the Utah Jazz. This is the same team that Kobe Bryant made mince-meat out of because they had no high level wing defenders & no shot-blockers in the paint. He attacked them mercilessly off the bounce attacking the basket and destroyed them. T-Mac shot long jumpers instead. This is where T-Mac's three year run of positive TS% end in the post season and he has back-to-back 47.8% TS% against this dodgy defensive team in the Utah Jazz.

T-Mac's per game stats are good but down from his 3yr run in ORL and 1st yr in HOU. He averages 25.3ppg 5.9rpg and 7.3apg in 2007 and 27ppg 8.2rpg and 6.8apg in 2008. Better in 2008.

Both years Deron Williams & Carlos Boozer out-duel Tracy McGrady and Yao Ming. In particular Boozer. Yao Ming could not defend Okur on the perimeter or Boozer facing up from the mid-post or in the PnR. Boozer too quick for him. Utah won in 7 and then 6 games the year after. They had Houston's number. 

Still, both of these were even matchups for Houston as was the DAL series. All 3 of them fair game. McGrady lost all 3. As he did in ORL against Charlotte in another fair game series. In only 2 of his 6 playoff trips did he face a team that was better than him and heavily favoured. In the other 4 of 6 he had winnable series and lost all of them.

He had good TS% in half of the 6 series and bad TS% in the other half. He had great per game numbers in all 6 series. In only one of the 6 playoff series did his defense stand out.

[Neurotic Guy]

I don't think Kobe was as big as Vince in 1999-01. He was huge before Vince came into the league and then Vince blew him out of the water in 1999-00. Vince became the heir apparent to MJ over Kobe during this period.

Obviously, this didn't last. Kobe retook top spot over Vince. Probably in 2002 onwards.

and yet Kobe was making higher All NBA teams during that stretch.  Vince was certainly popular with fans, but it didn't translate on the court.

I may be misinterpreting but it sounds like you are suggesting that All NBA teams are objectively determined.  Probably a better measure than fan love, but All-NBA is deeply impacted by personal preferences in addition to the quality of competition at the particular position - which is extremely era dependent.  Kobe likely had a bit of an edge being in LA and on great teams.  I don't think Vince was Kobe, but there is some space between Kobe as a HOFer and the guys who squeak in.  To me, Vince is a pretty obvious Hall of Fame player. My favorite player in my youth was JoJo White, Hall of Famer. He had nowhere near the HOF credentials of Vince Carter, other than playing on two championship teams alongside HOFers Cowens and Havlicek.

JoJo White had 2 2nd Team All NBA and played in an era where there wasn't a 3rd Team or he would have had a couple of those.  Those 2 2nd Team are better than Carter and he had 1 less all star game.  Yes, he played on a much better team, but individually he had every bit of the accolades that Vince did.  That said, JoJo shouldn't be in the HOF eother.

You admit some equivalency between Jojo and Vince and then acknowledge that it isn’t actual HOF criteria you use for HOF consideration but criteria that you’ve developed on your own. I admit defeat. If it’s your criteria for eligibility, you’re right, Vince doesn’t make it.  In the actual world where the HOF voters establish who gets in, precedent is set and Vince does make it.

[Moranis]

I don't think Kobe was as big as Vince in 1999-01. He was huge before Vince came into the league and then Vince blew him out of the water in 1999-00. Vince became the heir apparent to MJ over Kobe during this period.

Obviously, this didn't last. Kobe retook top spot over Vince. Probably in 2002 onwards.

and yet Kobe was making higher All NBA teams during that stretch.  Vince was certainly popular with fans, but it didn't translate on the court.

I may be misinterpreting but it sounds like you are suggesting that All NBA teams are objectively determined.  Probably a better measure than fan love, but All-NBA is deeply impacted by personal preferences in addition to the quality of competition at the particular position - which is extremely era dependent.  Kobe likely had a bit of an edge being in LA and on great teams.  I don't think Vince was Kobe, but there is some space between Kobe as a HOFer and the guys who squeak in.  To me, Vince is a pretty obvious Hall of Fame player. My favorite player in my youth was JoJo White, Hall of Famer. He had nowhere near the HOF credentials of Vince Carter, other than playing on two championship teams alongside HOFers Cowens and Havlicek.

JoJo White had 2 2nd Team All NBA and played in an era where there wasn't a 3rd Team or he would have had a couple of those.  Those 2 2nd Team are better than Carter and he had 1 less all star game.  Yes, he played on a much better team, but individually he had every bit of the accolades that Vince did.  That said, JoJo shouldn't be in the HOF eother.

You admit some equivalency between Jojo and Vince and then acknowledge that it isn’t actual HOF criteria you use for HOF consideration but criteria that you’ve developed on your own. I admit defeat. If it’s your criteria for eligibility, you’re right, Vince doesn’t make it.  In the actual world where the HOF voters establish who gets in, precedent is set and Vince does make it.

There are lots of guys with 2 All NBA teams that arent in the HOF though

[Kernewek]

I don't think Kobe was as big as Vince in 1999-01. He was huge before Vince came into the league and then Vince blew him out of the water in 1999-00. Vince became the heir apparent to MJ over Kobe during this period.

Obviously, this didn't last. Kobe retook top spot over Vince. Probably in 2002 onwards.

and yet Kobe was making higher All NBA teams during that stretch.  Vince was certainly popular with fans, but it didn't translate on the court.

I may be misinterpreting but it sounds like you are suggesting that All NBA teams are objectively determined.  Probably a better measure than fan love, but All-NBA is deeply impacted by personal preferences in addition to the quality of competition at the particular position - which is extremely era dependent.  Kobe likely had a bit of an edge being in LA and on great teams.  I don't think Vince was Kobe, but there is some space between Kobe as a HOFer and the guys who squeak in.  To me, Vince is a pretty obvious Hall of Fame player. My favorite player in my youth was JoJo White, Hall of Famer. He had nowhere near the HOF credentials of Vince Carter, other than playing on two championship teams alongside HOFers Cowens and Havlicek.

JoJo White had 2 2nd Team All NBA and played in an era where there wasn't a 3rd Team or he would have had a couple of those.  Those 2 2nd Team are better than Carter and he had 1 less all star game.  Yes, he played on a much better team, but individually he had every bit of the accolades that Vince did.  That said, JoJo shouldn't be in the HOF eother.

You admit some equivalency between Jojo and Vince and then acknowledge that it isn’t actual HOF criteria you use for HOF consideration but criteria that you’ve developed on your own. I admit defeat. If it’s your criteria for eligibility, you’re right, Vince doesn’t make it.  In the actual world where the HOF voters establish who gets in, precedent is set and Vince does make it.

There are lots of guys with 2 All NBA teams that arent in the HOF though

None of them as famous as Vince Carter.

[Moranis]

I don't think Kobe was as big as Vince in 1999-01. He was huge before Vince came into the league and then Vince blew him out of the water in 1999-00. Vince became the heir apparent to MJ over Kobe during this period.

Obviously, this didn't last. Kobe retook top spot over Vince. Probably in 2002 onwards.

and yet Kobe was making higher All NBA teams during that stretch.  Vince was certainly popular with fans, but it didn't translate on the court.

I may be misinterpreting but it sounds like you are suggesting that All NBA teams are objectively determined.  Probably a better measure than fan love, but All-NBA is deeply impacted by personal preferences in addition to the quality of competition at the particular position - which is extremely era dependent.  Kobe likely had a bit of an edge being in LA and on great teams.  I don't think Vince was Kobe, but there is some space between Kobe as a HOFer and the guys who squeak in.  To me, Vince is a pretty obvious Hall of Fame player. My favorite player in my youth was JoJo White, Hall of Famer. He had nowhere near the HOF credentials of Vince Carter, other than playing on two championship teams alongside HOFers Cowens and Havlicek.

JoJo White had 2 2nd Team All NBA and played in an era where there wasn't a 3rd Team or he would have had a couple of those.  Those 2 2nd Team are better than Carter and he had 1 less all star game.  Yes, he played on a much better team, but individually he had every bit of the accolades that Vince did.  That said, JoJo shouldn't be in the HOF eother.

You admit some equivalency between Jojo and Vince and then acknowledge that it isn’t actual HOF criteria you use for HOF consideration but criteria that you’ve developed on your own. I admit defeat. If it’s your criteria for eligibility, you’re right, Vince doesn’t make it.  In the actual world where the HOF voters establish who gets in, precedent is set and Vince does make it.

There are lots of guys with 2 All NBA teams that arent in the HOF though

None of them as famous as Vince Carter.

Amar'e is pretty famous. He has 5 All NBA and 6 All Star games.  He was also better than Vince st his peak.  He has been retired since 2016. Not in HOF.

Remember when Marbury was the next big thing. Also 2 All NBA Teams like Vince, not in the HOF and unlike Vince he has some decent international cred and what he did with his sneaker line was great for the youth. Not in HOF.

There are other famous people as well, like Grandmama (though his back giving out shortened his career to just a decade).

It shouldn't be the Hall of Very Good or the Hall of Played a Long Time.

This entire player class is a joke and cheapens the HOF for those that actually deserve ut.

[Moranis]

And Grandmama was on one the best and most famous college teams ever and played in probably the most famous college game ever. Well at least pretty much everyone knows the last shot (though Grandmama ost that one).  So he has a great college resume to go along with his decade of high level play in the NBA and one of the most famous ad lines ever (hence the Grandmama).

To be clear, I don't think Johnson should be in the HOF, merely pointing out his resume as a comparison to Vince.  I do think Amar'e should be in. 5 All NBA Teams is a lot for someone to not be in.

[Kernewek]

I'd give you an argument for Starbury based on his play & fame in China, but I honestly can't believe you want to put Amar'e into this (admittedly vibes-based) conversation regarding fame.

[Donoghus]

And Grandmama was on one the best and most famous college teams ever and played in probably the most famous college game ever. Well at least pretty much everyone knows the last shot (though Grandmama ost that one).  So he has a great college resume to go along with his decade of high level play in the NBA and one of the most famous ad lines ever (hence the Grandmama).

To be clear, I don't think Johnson should be in the HOF, merely pointing out his resume as a comparison to Vince.  I do think Amar'e should be in. 5 All NBA Teams is a lot for someone to not be in.

Larry Johnson played in the Kentucky-Duke regional final?

[Donoghus]

I'd give you an argument for Starbury based on his play & fame in China, but I honestly can't believe you want to put Amar'e into this (admittedly vibes-based) conversation regarding fame.

Yeah, Amar'e was nowhere on the same level of Vince Carter in terms of popularity.

[Moranis]

And Grandmama was on one the best and most famous college teams ever and played in probably the most famous college game ever. Well at least pretty much everyone knows the last shot (though Grandmama ost that one).  So he has a great college resume to go along with his decade of high level play in the NBA and one of the most famous ad lines ever (hence the Grandmama).

To be clear, I don't think Johnson should be in the HOF, merely pointing out his resume as a comparison to Vince.  I do think Amar'e should be in. 5 All NBA Teams is a lot for someone to not be in.

Larry Johnson played in the Kentucky-Duke regional final?

my bad on that. Duke beat them 79-77 but it wasn't the shot game. UNLV was 34-0 and the defending champs heading inro that game.

[Moranis]

I'd give you an argument for Starbury based on his play & fame in China, but I honestly can't believe you want to put Amar'e into this (admittedly vibes-based) conversation regarding fame.

Yeah, Amar'e was nowhere on the same level of Vince Carter in terms of popularity.

Sure but he was famous and was a better player with far more meaningful accolades. 

[Who]

Amar'e is pretty famous. He has 5 All NBA and 6 All Star games.  He was also better than Vince st his peak. 

Was Amare better than Vince at his peak?

Never more than the 2nd best player on his Phoenix Suns team to Nash. Never more than 45 win team on the Knicks as the best player on his own squad. Immediately the 2nd best player on the Knicks after Melo joined.

Amare was a scoring machine (prolific, highly efficient, consistent) but a lousy defender, subpar rebounder and a non-passer.

[Moranis]

Amar'e is pretty famous. He has 5 All NBA and 6 All Star games.  He was also better than Vince st his peak. 

Was Amare better than Vince at his peak?

Never more than the 2nd best player on his Phoenix Suns team to Nash. Never more than 45 win team on the Knicks as the best player on his own squad. Immediately the 2nd best player on the Knicks after Melo joined.

Amare was a scoring machine (prolific, highly efficient, consistent) but a lousy defender, subpar rebounder and a non-passer.

Yes Amar'e was better.  1 1st Team and 4 2nd Team.  4 seasons in top 10 MVP finishing as high as 6th (and another season receiving votes).  All of that far exceeds anything Vince did. 

Their 3rd seasons were both actually their best seasons. 14.6 WS for Amar'e and 12.9 WS for Vince.  Amar'e got hurt 3 games into his 4th year and while that diminished him, he still out performed Vince during their prime years.