Author Topic: Celtics (35-13) at Heat (26-22) Game #49 1/24/23  (Read 4450 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Celtics (35-13) at Heat (26-22) Game #49 1/24/23
« Reply #315 on: January 24, 2023, 10:48:02 PM »

Online jpotter33

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 42476
  • Tommy Points: 1112
Joe mismanages 3 games in a row.  He blew it against Toronto and we were [dang] lucky to win that.  Just garbage coaching. 

I could do better.  Yeah I said it.  You're [dang] right I could do better.

My 7 year old with a whopping one year of experience playing basketball could coach better right now. No logical basketball person would let that final play go without a TO given our injuries and how the fourth has went.

Seriously, there's got to be zero confidence in him as a playoff coach right now. If you're Brad, you have to sit him down and put his butt on the hot seat. This in-game management futility is costing us way too many games.

I can’t imagine he would coach this way in the playoffs. I think he’s determined to use live game experiences as teaching moments regardless of whether it leads to a win or a loss. There’s no other logical explanation. Mazulla got this job for a reason surely Brad would have known of his philosophy and signed off on it. That’s the only thing I can think of.

Even if this is true, it's ludicrous to give up games because of this. What is the team going to learn in that instance with 4 of their top 6 out and not having it going all fourth quarter long?

Whatever the true reason is, there's no justification for it.

Players being out is a great opportunity for learning. These guys who are usually not on the floor in pressure situations now get experience in a pressure situation and have an opportunity to build confidence.

So that when the playoffs do come around, if a situation arises where they are called into crunc Q4 minutes for whatever reason (like foul trouble), then they are then ready and prepared for the pressure moment.

Larry Bird used to do that as a coach. He would use the first couple of months of the season to give his 2nd unit more Q4 minutes in close games over his starters for this exact reason. He was intentional with it and he got great results. That 1998 Pacers team that pushed Chicago to 7 in the ECF and the 2000 Pacers that went to the Finals both got huge performances from their bench in big playoff moments.

Sure, but they get that experience by actually playing the game itself.

Putting them out there blind and expecting them to figure it out themselves as a learning lesson is insane, particularly on the second night of a back to back and with how the fourth had gone thus far.

I can see some logic in occasionally doing this, but Joe takes this to the absolutely extreme, and it leads to these kinds of issues like we saw tonight. There's absolutely no justification for what happened tonight, and each win is valuable and could be the difference between playing a game 7 on the road versus at home.
I miss Ime.


Re: Celtics (35-13) at Heat (26-22) Game #49 1/24/23
« Reply #316 on: January 24, 2023, 10:53:45 PM »

Offline Who

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 42242
  • Tommy Points: 2248
Joe mismanages 3 games in a row.  He blew it against Toronto and we were [dang] lucky to win that.  Just garbage coaching. 

I could do better.  Yeah I said it.  You're [dang] right I could do better.

My 7 year old with a whopping one year of experience playing basketball could coach better right now. No logical basketball person would let that final play go without a TO given our injuries and how the fourth has went.

Seriously, there's got to be zero confidence in him as a playoff coach right now. If you're Brad, you have to sit him down and put his butt on the hot seat. This in-game management futility is costing us way too many games.

I can’t imagine he would coach this way in the playoffs. I think he’s determined to use live game experiences as teaching moments regardless of whether it leads to a win or a loss. There’s no other logical explanation. Mazulla got this job for a reason surely Brad would have known of his philosophy and signed off on it. That’s the only thing I can think of.

Even if this is true, it's ludicrous to give up games because of this. What is the team going to learn in that instance with 4 of their top 6 out and not having it going all fourth quarter long?

Whatever the true reason is, there's no justification for it.

Players being out is a great opportunity for learning. These guys who are usually not on the floor in pressure situations now get experience in a pressure situation and have an opportunity to build confidence.

So that when the playoffs do come around, if a situation arises where they are called into crunc Q4 minutes for whatever reason (like foul trouble), then they are then ready and prepared for the pressure moment.

Larry Bird used to do that as a coach. He would use the first couple of months of the season to give his 2nd unit more Q4 minutes in close games over his starters for this exact reason. He was intentional with it and he got great results. That 1998 Pacers team that pushed Chicago to 7 in the ECF and the 2000 Pacers that went to the Finals both got huge performances from their bench in big playoff moments.

Did they change the rules in the playoffs and take TO's away? He can teach how to handle pressure and coach the guys to a win at the same time.

It is about learning to make decisions for yourself and working as a group in difficult situations without having to look over to your head coach to ask what you should do.

Basketball is a game of instincts. Of making quick decisions. You don't want to be in your head thinking about what you are meant to be doing.

This is way of getting players to develop that in high-pressure situations ... essentially the most similar type of situations to a playoff game that a coach can get to teach his players.

There is also responsibility; ownership of the team. Coaches do not play. Players play. There is individual responsibility and collective responsibility. There is responsibility and then there is trust. These are qualities that developed in situations like this ... as unity in trust forged in difficult high pressure moments are much stronger than in easy low pressure moments of games.

There is a lot of very good things that can be gained for this type of strategy. I have long been a fan of it. Phil Jackson used it to great effect.

Re: Celtics (35-13) at Heat (26-22) Game #49 1/24/23
« Reply #317 on: January 24, 2023, 10:57:39 PM »

Offline Who

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 42242
  • Tommy Points: 2248
There was an interesting article I was reading maybe two weeks ago about coaching. Not 100% sure but I think the sport was volleyball and they were talking about they moved the coach further away from the court (rule change) ... and how this benefitted the team.

The team was no longer looking over to the coach at all times for guidance on what to do. They were just playing. Trusting their instincts. And the team got much better results.

I can't remember the team. Team USA? California? I don't remember.

But similar type of ideas to what we are talking about here. Just in a different sport.

Re: Celtics (35-13) at Heat (26-22) Game #49 1/24/23
« Reply #318 on: January 24, 2023, 11:00:33 PM »

Offline Ed Monix

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1541
  • Tommy Points: 162
  • Signature move: Punch to the jejunum
Miami Heat just posted this on their official Twitter:

—————————

Celtics gave away the ball 17 times in the narrow loss to the HEAT, in a matchup the Celtics had a chance to win if they didn’t again generate self-inflicted wounds.



—————————

Honestly even without the rivalry, the Miami Heat are such a hateable, classless organization.
5' 10" former point guard

Career highlight: 1973-74 championship, Boston Celtics

Career lowlight: traded for a washing machine

Re: Celtics (35-13) at Heat (26-22) Game #49 1/24/23
« Reply #319 on: January 24, 2023, 11:12:17 PM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5134
  • Tommy Points: 584
Btw I’m not suggesting not calling a timeout was the right thing…I mentioned it at the time that Joe should have called timeout. I just really think joes not callin a timeout in thst situation, as well as other situations, is due to his coaching philosophy. He’s using these live ball situations as teaching moments even if it costs them the game, because he wants them to experience those moments and look back to see if they made the right or wrong decision so thst I’m the playoffs they will be better at them. But come playoff time the time for learning will be over and every win matters because you need 16 wins to raise banner 18.

This team has multiple guys with loads of playoff experience. If he wants to teach, then teach tatum how to get back on defense. Teach them not to go iso in moments when things spiral.

Timeouts are for reminding your team what works and what doesn't, correcting them when they start to spiral before too much damage is done. It also serves to halt the opponent's momentum.
The Four Celtic Generals:
Russell - Cowens - Bird - Garnett

The Four Celtic Lieutenants:
Cousy - Havlicek - McHale - Pierce

Re: Celtics (35-13) at Heat (26-22) Game #49 1/24/23
« Reply #320 on: January 24, 2023, 11:15:50 PM »

Offline ozgod

  • K.C. Jones
  • *************
  • Posts: 13590
  • Tommy Points: 1057

Joe saying he should have done more to get them better looks out of the zone from a coaching point of view

Said their spacing wasn’t good during the zone and didn’t play fast enough

Says it was on him to put up a better play on that second last offensive possession where JT got trapped, he felt they had a good opportunity because Miami had their offensive lineup out there and he liked their matchups and he didn’t want Miami to put their defensive lineup during any timeout, so he said he didn’t feel he needed to call a timeout but what he needed to do was call a better play for JT thst would give him more visibility when he got trapped

Here's what Joe Mazz had to say regarding that second last play of the game, the one where we all agreed he should have called timeout. I linked it to that specific part of the interview but the whole interview is worth listening to, at least to understand his thought process (which probably most of us don't, and don't agree with  :police:). Straight from the horse's mouth  :laugh:

https://youtu.be/VnWchx9G1CU?t=184
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: Celtics (35-13) at Heat (26-22) Game #49 1/24/23
« Reply #321 on: January 24, 2023, 11:16:29 PM »

Offline 86MaxwellSmart

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3599
  • Tommy Points: 358
I knew this would happen.....Winning the entire game, then go on a huge scoring drought....GAVE this game away...letting Miami go on a 15-0 run. What the hell Tatum---why would you dribble the clock out? ATTACK always, get to the line, something!
Larry Bird was Greater than you think.

Re: Celtics (35-13) at Heat (26-22) Game #49 1/24/23
« Reply #322 on: January 24, 2023, 11:17:26 PM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5134
  • Tommy Points: 584
So, I'm looking at the play-by-play summary, let me make sure about what happened.

8:47 Rob W dunks for a 10 point lead
Spolestra calls for a timeout
Heat proceed then to go from down 10 to up 5 in the next five minutes.
Juicy Fruit Joe never calls a timeout to at least address a +15-point run by the Heat.


This guy is a deer in headlights clueless. We will not win the title with him this season.
I don't know who to be angrier with, Mazzulla or Udoka.
Does Stevens ever sit down with Joe and talk to him about his glaring screw-ups ?

yes, the 15-0 run in that situation without a TO is damming. also damming was the lack of a TO and solid ATO on the second-to-last possession. miami is running a stretch 2-3 and the guards were extending to double tatum at the 3pt line, which they had consistently done in the 4Q, knowing he was the only real threat.

how do you beat that? definitely not with a lazy skip pass, but instead with a high post pass, followed by the perimeter wings cutting hard to the paint. tatum could have stayed above the 3pt line for a kick-out, if the guards collapse on the high post. if bam or another big steps up, the cutting wings have a layup. and the frustrating part of it is rob is an excellent passer.

joe is lost and is riding a great roster.

Your strategy to hit the high post against the zone trap is absolutely right on.
How could Mazzulla have climbed to this level and not know that ?
The Four Celtic Generals:
Russell - Cowens - Bird - Garnett

The Four Celtic Lieutenants:
Cousy - Havlicek - McHale - Pierce

Re: Celtics (35-13) at Heat (26-22) Game #49 1/24/23
« Reply #323 on: January 24, 2023, 11:19:10 PM »

Offline 86MaxwellSmart

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3599
  • Tommy Points: 358
Man, I'm done with PP and Hauser...Weakling players....and Kornet is a total sissy.
Larry Bird was Greater than you think.

Re: Celtics (35-13) at Heat (26-22) Game #49 1/24/23
« Reply #324 on: January 24, 2023, 11:22:09 PM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5134
  • Tommy Points: 584
It's not the end of the world.  We still have the best record in the league with the best team.

Fool's gold at this point, way too many red flags.
The concern being expressed is us looking towards the playoffs.
What are we seeing now that will lose playoff games down the road ?
The Four Celtic Generals:
Russell - Cowens - Bird - Garnett

The Four Celtic Lieutenants:
Cousy - Havlicek - McHale - Pierce

Re: Celtics (35-13) at Heat (26-22) Game #49 1/24/23
« Reply #325 on: January 24, 2023, 11:47:16 PM »

Offline angryguy77

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6017
  • Tommy Points: 482
Joe mismanages 3 games in a row.  He blew it against Toronto and we were [dang] lucky to win that.  Just garbage coaching. 

I could do better.  Yeah I said it.  You're [dang] right I could do better.

My 7 year old with a whopping one year of experience playing basketball could coach better right now. No logical basketball person would let that final play go without a TO given our injuries and how the fourth has went.

Seriously, there's got to be zero confidence in him as a playoff coach right now. If you're Brad, you have to sit him down and put his butt on the hot seat. This in-game management futility is costing us way too many games.

I can’t imagine he would coach this way in the playoffs. I think he’s determined to use live game experiences as teaching moments regardless of whether it leads to a win or a loss. There’s no other logical explanation. Mazulla got this job for a reason surely Brad would have known of his philosophy and signed off on it. That’s the only thing I can think of.

Even if this is true, it's ludicrous to give up games because of this. What is the team going to learn in that instance with 4 of their top 6 out and not having it going all fourth quarter long?

Whatever the true reason is, there's no justification for it.

Players being out is a great opportunity for learning. These guys who are usually not on the floor in pressure situations now get experience in a pressure situation and have an opportunity to build confidence.

So that when the playoffs do come around, if a situation arises where they are called into crunc Q4 minutes for whatever reason (like foul trouble), then they are then ready and prepared for the pressure moment.

Larry Bird used to do that as a coach. He would use the first couple of months of the season to give his 2nd unit more Q4 minutes in close games over his starters for this exact reason. He was intentional with it and he got great results. That 1998 Pacers team that pushed Chicago to 7 in the ECF and the 2000 Pacers that went to the Finals both got huge performances from their bench in big playoff moments.

Did they change the rules in the playoffs and take TO's away? He can teach how to handle pressure and coach the guys to a win at the same time.

It is about learning to make decisions for yourself and working as a group in difficult situations without having to look over to your head coach to ask what you should do.

Basketball is a game of instincts. Of making quick decisions. You don't want to be in your head thinking about what you are meant to be doing.

This is way of getting players to develop that in high-pressure situations ... essentially the most similar type of situations to a playoff game that a coach can get to teach his players.

There is also responsibility; ownership of the team. Coaches do not play. Players play. There is individual responsibility and collective responsibility. There is responsibility and then there is trust. These are qualities that developed in situations like this ... as unity in trust forged in difficult high pressure moments are much stronger than in easy low pressure moments of games.

There is a lot of very good things that can be gained for this type of strategy. I have long been a fan of it. Phil Jackson used it to great effect.

Isn't that what the coach is for? Practice end game scenarios and then call plays. That's his job. He's not teaching kids how to swim here by throwing then in and hoping for the best.
Fire Joe.

Re: Celtics (35-13) at Heat (26-22) Game #49 1/24/23
« Reply #326 on: January 24, 2023, 11:47:23 PM »

Offline Billz401

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1197
  • Tommy Points: 87
  • B's Up
Man, I'm done with PP and Hauser...Weakling players....and Kornet is a total sissy.
Kornet is the softest most ineffective 7 footer ive ever seen. We're talking Semih Erden levels of trash. But at least tonight he did dunk it twice but usually its a missed layup or pass out. And im over PP and his hero ball. He takes some of the wildest shots ive ever seen a reserve player take. Theres gotta be someone in free agency who can run a team better than him.

There was like a 4 or 5 possession period where Tatum didnt even touch the ball because PP and D White couldnt figure out how to run a play. Every time down court I was yelling at the TV to get Tatum the ball.. Thats also on coach Joe too. He had 2 timeouts in pocket and decided to let them completely wet the bed on that last possession. Why screen with Rob and bring another defender over to JT? They werent concerned with him at all and instantly trapped
everyone got so sensitive after 9-11... thanks alot bin laden

Re: Celtics (35-13) at Heat (26-22) Game #49 1/24/23
« Reply #327 on: January 25, 2023, 12:11:42 AM »

Offline GreenEnvy

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4410
  • Tommy Points: 1017
Miami Heat just posted this on their official Twitter:

—————————

Celtics gave away the ball 17 times in the narrow loss to the HEAT, in a matchup the Celtics had a chance to win if they didn’t again generate self-inflicted wounds.



—————————

Honestly even without the rivalry, the Miami Heat are such a hateable, classless organization.

This isn’t as big of a rivalry as the Heat make it out to be. Yea they were missing their best player, but we were missing 60% of our starting lineup and our best reserve.
I AM A CELTIC

Re: Celtics (35-13) at Heat (26-22) Game #49 1/24/23
« Reply #328 on: January 25, 2023, 12:18:55 AM »

Offline hpantazo

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23604
  • Tommy Points: 1234
So we were missing three starters and our best bench player, and lost by 2 points and people are freaking out and saying we are not a true contender?

Re: Celtics (35-13) at Heat (26-22) Game #49 1/24/23
« Reply #329 on: January 25, 2023, 12:43:13 AM »

Offline CelticSooner

  • Danny Ainge
  • **********
  • Posts: 10668
  • Tommy Points: 776
  • GOT IT!!!
Joe saying he should have done more to get them better looks out of the zone from a coaching point of view

Said their spacing wasn’t good during the zone and didn’t play fast enough

Says it was on him to put up a better play on that second last offensive possession where JT got trapped, he felt they had a good opportunity because Miami had their offensive lineup out there and he liked their matchups and he didn’t want Miami to put their defensive lineup during any timeout, so he said he didn’t feel he needed to call a timeout but what he needed to do was call a better play for JT thst would give him more visibility when he got trapped

He was fine with the trap but Tatum didn’t read it correctly because the play call wasn’t very good. Better use that as a learning experience to all involved going forward because that same situation will happen often.

 The thing about timeouts is they can help you get on the same page. I refuse to believe that won’t change in the playoffs. Joe will be hammered by everyone if it costs them a playoff game. I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt right now.