Bill Simmons on the Celtics off-season

[Fafnir]

I like that he declared AI a top 30 all time NBA player. I don't buy that for a moment.

Iverson still gets doubted, but he is one of the greatest of all time. He was NEVER surrounded by a good team.

He's a scorer, an elite scorer. But just scoring inefficiently can't win in the NBA. I can't think of a one-dimensional player as a top 30 player of all time.

[Hoops]

I like that he declared AI a top 30 all time NBA player. I don't buy that for a moment.

Iverson still gets doubted, but he is one of the greatest of all time. He was NEVER surrounded by a good team.

Horsepuckey.  Forgetting about 'Mello?  Denver was one of the best teams in the west after that trade was made.  The lack of leadership from Iverson - the fact that he doesn't make life easier for his teammates - was holding them back.  Chauncey's play had a direct impact on how much better the team was, but it was also the leadership that he provided that Iverson simply does not bring.  There was plenty, plenty, PLENTY of talent latent on that team when Iverson was in town, they SHOULD have been a lot better than they were.

Likewise, the Pistons still had a lot of individual talent, but AI could never provide the leadership that they lost when Chauncey left.  Given players like Prince and Rip and 'Sheed and Stuckey, they *should* have been a lot better than they were.

When you see TEAMS underperforming, coming apart at the seams like Denver and Detroit when they had Iverson, you look to the guy controlling the rock as being primarily responsible. 

You say he never had a great team; I say he's been surrounded by plenty of talent in recent years, but a true superstar - someone that we can consider top-50 all-time - provides the leadership for talent to coalesce into team.

I agree that Iverson hasn't been the type of player to make his teammates better, but he never claimed to be that type player. Just because Melo is talented doesn't make the potential for a good team. It was one of the stupidest moves ever made to bring AI to Denver. While it would take a pretty rare combination of unselfish players, AI could have thrived if someone had constructed the right team around him.

[Fafnir]

I like that he declared AI a top 30 all time NBA player. I don't buy that for a moment.

Iverson still gets doubted, but he is one of the greatest of all time. He was NEVER surrounded by a good team.

Horsepuckey.  Forgetting about 'Mello?  Denver was one of the best teams in the west after that trade was made.  The lack of leadership from Iverson - the fact that he doesn't make life easier for his teammates - was holding them back.  Chauncey's play had a direct impact on how much better the team was, but it was also the leadership that he provided that Iverson simply does not bring.  There was plenty, plenty, PLENTY of talent latent on that team when Iverson was in town, they SHOULD have been a lot better than they were.

Likewise, the Pistons still had a lot of individual talent, but AI could never provide the leadership that they lost when Chauncey left.  Given players like Prince and Rip and 'Sheed and Stuckey, they *should* have been a lot better than they were.

When you see TEAMS underperforming, coming apart at the seams like Denver and Detroit when they had Iverson, you look to the guy controlling the rock as being primarily responsible. 

You say he never had a great team; I say he's been surrounded by plenty of talent in recent years, but a true superstar - someone that we can consider top-50 all-time - provides the leadership for talent to coalesce into team.

I agree that Iverson hasn't been the type of player to make his teammates better, but he never claimed to be that type player. Just because Melo is talented doesn't make the potential for a good team. It was one of the stupidest moves ever made to bring AI to Denver. While it would take a pretty rare combination of unselfish players, AI could have thrived if someone had constructed the right team around him.

Isn't entire point of playing professional basketball to make the team better?

AI was succesful when he was younger and had a team built around his scoring talents. But those days are long gone, and it only worked one year.

[MrTripleDouble10]

I don't have the link, but I know for a fact that he was MORE excited about the younger Celtics teams a few years back, than he has been about the KG era.  Simmons is one of these guys that is constantly in love with the POTENTIAL of young players and teams.  He gets way too excited about over-hyped young players/rookies who have done nothing to win in their careers.

Sure, in a perfect world, you'd love to build a championship team through the draft and with a ton of younger players so it will have a lasting effect (i.e. the Celtics/Lakers of the 80's, which he is forever holding onto).

But Ainge took the smart approach (lots of luck was involved too, like KG and Ray Allen being available) and it netted a title.  It also has given we as fans the expectations to at least be in the conversation of championship caliber teams heading into the season for three years in a row now.

I don't know about everyone else, but I'd take a relatively older team with title expectations every year over a team with a bunch of young, exciting players that just lose all year.  Oh wait, we had that too.

[Hoops]

As much as I like Simmons, he ignores (intentionally or unintentially) the fact that Sheed starts having problems when he becomes disinterested. Maybe that's a character flaw on Sheed's part, but he didn't play well the last couple of seasons because he was totally disinterested in Detroit. I think the situation in Boston (esp. with KG as constant motivation) will keep Sheed plenty engaged and interested over the next couple years. The result will be much better production and a much better overall player than he was the last couple of years.

[Mr October]

i really like simmons... but he is taking the easy path, go against the popular opinion grain.

That way, later on he can say, "see i told you the wallace signing could have been bad." 

Any signing could go badly.

One thing I guarantee wont be an issue: playing time between Sheed, Perk (& KG). There is plenty of minutes and all 3 guys need to have their minutes monitored. No one is gonna be griping for more. Simmons is flat out wrong on this one.

However he is right that Artest and Wallace are nothing like they used to be, and are getting by on reputation a bit. However thats why they are now considered role players and not the best player on their team, Mr. Simmons. 

Boston is much better then they were last April. And If LA keeps Odom they are just as good. Artest for Ariza just gives them a different look - some parts better, some parts worse.

[MBz]

Even though I like the Sheed and Daniels signings, I did enjoy this article quite a bit.  Almost Famous is a great movie, one of the more under-rated ones in my opinion and it was cool how he connected the quotes to the NBA.

[BballTim]

Does anyone know how much Ray Allen (who at least half the people here hate as a player) has left?  

  At least half the people here hate Ray Allen as a player? Seriously?

[Fafnir]

Does anyone know how much Ray Allen (who at least half the people here hate as a player) has left?  

  At least half the people here hate Ray Allen as a player? Seriously?

I think he's referring to all the trade speculation.

[BballTim]

Does anyone know how much Ray Allen (who at least half the people here hate as a player) has left?  

  At least half the people here hate Ray Allen as a player? Seriously?

I think he's referring to all the trade speculation.

  But that was mainly based on the length of his contract.

[paintitgreen]

Thinking about Iverson in the top 30, it's not that far fetched. Off the top of my head, I would definitely put the following ahead of him: Russell, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq, Oscar, Kobe, West, Karl Malone, Moses, Dr. J, Pettit, Cousy, Baylor, Hondo, Barkley, Robinson, Stockton, KG, Isaiah, Pippen, Rick Barry, George Mikan. That's 27. There are a lot who are arguably better than Iverson, but you could argue Iverson, an MVP and 10 time All Star, and/or Nash, a 2 time MVP and 6 time All Star, were better NBA players than these guys: Cowens, McHale, Payton, Dolph Schayes, Kidd, Willis Reed, Gervin, Tiny, Ewing, Sam Jones, Sharman, Walt Frazier, Walton, Maravich, Parish.

That's 44 guys total. A lot of guys on that latter list would probably have been better if not for injury shortened or plagued careers (McHale, Reed, Cowens, Tiny to an extent) but Iverson gutted out a lot of amazing years in the NBA. I'll always have a ton of respect for what he did in this league, and I don't think it's crazy to think he's one of the best 30 ever. He's certainly one of the best of his generation. That he's now too old and was blamed for Detroit's collapse - much of which can in fact be attributed to a bad coach, Sheed not showing up last year, Rip missing long stretches and not accepting a bench role, and the Pistons forcing a non point guard (Stuckey) to handle the ball all the time - doesn't change that he was a phenomenal talent for a long time.

And I agree that Billups saving Denver and Iverson inhibiting the Nuggets is garbage. Denver won 4 more games with Billups in 09 than with Iverson in 08. Just so happens that it switched them from an 8 seed to a 2 seed. Not surprising considering the West as a whole was far inferior in 08-09 than it was in 07-08 with huge dropoffs from the Suns, Spurs, Hornets and Jazz and improvement only really from the Blazers. The Nuggets had a perfect storm this year (and blew it by the way). Billups has been an underrated player, and that team needed a point guard, but linking solely Billups and Iverson to the changes in fortune of  Detroit and Denver is a bit short-sighted considering all that went right for Denver and all that went wrong for Detroit.

I agree with the majority of Simmons' sentiments. I like the Wallace move a lot more than he does (although if it changes from Wallace replacing Powe, Scalabrine and Moore to Wallace replacing Powe, Scalabrine, Moore and Davis, that changes things a lot) but a lot of his comments are spot on. And the fact that the Celtics are still short a real backup 3, again, I agree with. 

[steve]

As much as I like Simmons, he ignores (intentionally or unintentially) the fact that Sheed starts having problems when he becomes disinterested. Maybe that's a character flaw on Sheed's part, but he didn't play well the last couple of seasons because he was totally disinterested in Detroit. I think the situation in Boston (esp. with KG as constant motivation) will keep Sheed plenty engaged and interested over the next couple years. The result will be much better production and a much better overall player than he was the last couple of years.

I agree.  In some ways he is like Randy Moss.  I think we will be the most intimidating team this year.  

[Fafnir]

Thinking about Iverson in the top 30, it's not that far fetched. Off the top of my head, I would definitely put the following ahead of him: Russell, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq, Oscar, Kobe, West, Karl Malone, Moses, Dr. J, Pettit, Cousy, Baylor, Hondo, Barkley, Robinson, Stockton, KG, Isaiah, Pippen, Rick Barry, George Mikan. That's 27. There are a lot who are arguably better than Iverson, but you could argue Iverson, an MVP and 10 time All Star, and/or Nash, a 2 time MVP and 6 time All Star, were better NBA players than these guys: Cowens, McHale, Payton, Dolph Schayes, Kidd, Willis Reed, Gervin, Tiny, Ewing, Sam Jones, Sharman, Walt Frazier, Walton, Maravich, Parish.

That's 44 guys total. A lot of guys on that latter list would probably have been better if not for injury shortened or plagued careers (McHale, Reed, Cowens, Tiny to an extent) but Iverson gutted out a lot of amazing years in the NBA. I'll always have a ton of respect for what he did in this league, and I don't think it's crazy to think he's one of the best 30 ever. He's certainly one of the best of his generation.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Nate Archibald

Paul Arizin
Charles Barkley
Rick Barry
Elgin Baylor
Dave Bing
Larry Bird
Wilt Chamberlain
Bob Cousy
Dave Cowens
Billy Cunningham
Dave DeBusschere
Clyde Drexler
Julius Erving
Patrick Ewing
Walt Frazier
George Gervin
Hal Greer
John Havlicek
Elvin Hayes
Magic Johnson
Sam Jones
Michael Jordan
Jerry Lucas
Karl Malone
Moses Malone
Pete Maravich
Kevin McHale
George Mikan
Earl Monroe
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Robert Parish
Bob Pettit
Scottie Pippen
Willis Reed
Oscar Robertson
David Robinson
Bill Russell
Dolph Schayes
Bill Sharman
John Stockton
Isiah Thomas
Nate Thurmond
Wes Unseld
Bill Walton
Jerry West
Lenny Wilkens
James Worthy
 
Who do you think AI is better than on this list? Consider also that Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, and several other current players aren't on this list at all.

I don't think AI cracks top 50 myself.

[Fafnir]

Does anyone know how much Ray Allen (who at least half the people here hate as a player) has left?  

  At least half the people here hate Ray Allen as a player? Seriously?

I think he's referring to all the trade speculation.

  But that was mainly based on the length of his contract.

I know but some people think that means you also don't like Ray as a player.

I still like Bill's column's, they're funny.

[furball]

Does anyone know how much Ray Allen (who at least half the people here hate as a player) has left?  

  At least half the people here hate Ray Allen as a player? Seriously?

I think he's referring to all the trade speculation.

  But that was mainly based on the length of his contract.

I know but some people think that means you also don't like Ray as a player.

I still like Bill's column's, they're funny.

While I was reffering to all the trade suggestions (that started after last season) I was also reffering to all the complaints about him from the play-offs the last two seasons.  Except for the finals, everyone(that's an exaggeration) was crying for Rays head.