A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)

[fairweatherfan]

Sandor survives because he hasn't faced his brother yet.

But not Jaime? They've both got more or less the same arc closure. I suspect Brienne will die saving him.

See, I think Jaime has completed his arc.  He left Cersei behind and faced the people he'd wronged.  He knighted Brienne.  He's made amends.

I think he's ready to die (from a character perspective, not saying he feels ready to die necessarily).

I don't think Jaime needs to kill Cersei or something in order to come full circle.  Indeed, I think returning to Winterfell to face Bran and stand accused for what he's done, and then be saved by the people he treated well along the way -- that's full circle for Jaime.

I agree this is a key part of his redemption arc but I just don't see it ending without him facing Cersei and fulfilling that prophecy.

BTW so so hopeful the Night King will find a way to wight the Mountain.

There will be some discovery in the crypts, too late to affect the battle but that will prove vital for the final battle against the undead in episode 5.

Finding an ultimate NK killing weapon seems a little too cliche for the show. Wonder if some Stark+crypt magic means someone comes back like Benjen. The fan choice is of course Ned but it'd most likely be Lyanna or else like Bran the Builder with special knowledge about the Night King.

I'm not saying they'll find some magic ultimate killing weapon, but maybe a piece of information or some insight that will help somebody (probably Tyrion) figure out the way that they can find a way to win against the undead.

Oh yeah wasn't implying you meant that just kinda musing about possibilities. I think if it's info it'll come from Bran, he's really the only ancient Stark we've heard much about and he built the Wall so he knows something about keeping them at bay.

EDIT: Ooh I bet it's gotta be about those symbols they keep making out of corpses. That thread's been hanging out since literally the first sequence of the show.

[tazzmaniac]

IMO Arya and Gendry will take the throne.

Jon Snow is idealistic and will have to die (again) to achieve his goals. He is a classic Christ-like figure and does not belong in the world that he will save.

Dany will make some sort of mistake which will be her undoing. She might possibly prove to be unstable like her father. Or her distrust of others will cost her. She represents magic and dragons, and I think she too will not inherit the world she is creating.

Cersei won't win because she is pure evil.

Sansa has a chance. Tyrion has an outside shot. He is the wisest and most stable of all the characters.

But Arya and Gendry I think make the most sense from a writing standpoint. George Martin clearly loves the character, and so does everyone else. She is cunning and violent enough to survive the coming war and yet she has enough of a moral compass that she would make for a fine leader.

And now she might be carrying the former King's grandson.

Dendry has a royal pedigree and as good a claim as anyone to the throne - especially with the backing of an empowered Arya Stark. He also makes a fine counterbalance to Arya's personality. I think the other Starks will die and she will inherit the North. She then uses Dendry's heritage to claim the throne. Their marriage and baby unites the South and North, and everyone lives happily ever after.

Tyrion is not wise.  Cersei played him like a fiddle.  The Masters played him.  A wise man knows when to keep his mouth shut but Tyrion likes to hear the sound of his voice too much. 

Dendry and Arya would make terrible rulers.  They've showed no leadership ability or desire to lead.

Tyrion has regressed badly the past few seasons; bunch of bad decisions, some cynical and perhaps weak (slavers), some too soft-hearted (believing Cersei could sacrifice for the common good).

That said, remember Jorah's speech, about everyone making mistakes? I wonder if he's due for some redemption.

I don't know that he really believed in Cersei so much as he believed in Jamie.  If Jamie wasn't so gung ho, I don't think Tyrion would have believed Cersei. 

And he really didn't mess up all that much with the slavers because at the end of the day, he knew his side had superior forces and that the odds of the slavers ever actually giving up (without being decimated) was almost zero.  And the reality is that the betrayal actually worked out much greater in Dany's favor as it got her the ships she needed to sail to the Seven Kingdoms and it ended the slavers without a long drawn out war where her forces would have been weakened.  Now the show didn't portray Tyrion this way because they wanted to make him seem weaker and it added tension, but that is how I see it i.e. you take the long shot for a peaceful resolution, but know full well it probably won't happen, and prepare for the upcoming battle.

It was Tyrion's plan not Jaime's.  Tyrion convinced Dany that it would work.  Jaime wasn't even there when Tyrion met the 2nd time with Cersei and she finally agreed.  It was a stupid plan.  Cersei had no incentive to follow through on it.  Cersei would have been the greatest idiot in GOT to actually send her troops up north.  She'd have been handing the throne to Dany. 

As for the slavers, Dany was gone with Drogon when Tyrion made the peace overture.  The only troops he had were the Unsullied and the Second Sons who weren't even able to control the uprising in the city.  By asking for a peace meeting, he confirmed their weakness.  When the fleet showed up, Tyrion's forces were outmatched.  It wasn't until Dany showed up with the dragons and the Dothraki that the tables were turned. 

[Moranis]

IMO Arya and Gendry will take the throne.

Jon Snow is idealistic and will have to die (again) to achieve his goals. He is a classic Christ-like figure and does not belong in the world that he will save.

Dany will make some sort of mistake which will be her undoing. She might possibly prove to be unstable like her father. Or her distrust of others will cost her. She represents magic and dragons, and I think she too will not inherit the world she is creating.

Cersei won't win because she is pure evil.

Sansa has a chance. Tyrion has an outside shot. He is the wisest and most stable of all the characters.

But Arya and Gendry I think make the most sense from a writing standpoint. George Martin clearly loves the character, and so does everyone else. She is cunning and violent enough to survive the coming war and yet she has enough of a moral compass that she would make for a fine leader.

And now she might be carrying the former King's grandson.

Dendry has a royal pedigree and as good a claim as anyone to the throne - especially with the backing of an empowered Arya Stark. He also makes a fine counterbalance to Arya's personality. I think the other Starks will die and she will inherit the North. She then uses Dendry's heritage to claim the throne. Their marriage and baby unites the South and North, and everyone lives happily ever after.

Tyrion is not wise.  Cersei played him like a fiddle.  The Masters played him.  A wise man knows when to keep his mouth shut but Tyrion likes to hear the sound of his voice too much. 

Dendry and Arya would make terrible rulers.  They've showed no leadership ability or desire to lead.

Tyrion has regressed badly the past few seasons; bunch of bad decisions, some cynical and perhaps weak (slavers), some too soft-hearted (believing Cersei could sacrifice for the common good).

That said, remember Jorah's speech, about everyone making mistakes? I wonder if he's due for some redemption.

I don't know that he really believed in Cersei so much as he believed in Jamie.  If Jamie wasn't so gung ho, I don't think Tyrion would have believed Cersei. 

And he really didn't mess up all that much with the slavers because at the end of the day, he knew his side had superior forces and that the odds of the slavers ever actually giving up (without being decimated) was almost zero.  And the reality is that the betrayal actually worked out much greater in Dany's favor as it got her the ships she needed to sail to the Seven Kingdoms and it ended the slavers without a long drawn out war where her forces would have been weakened.  Now the show didn't portray Tyrion this way because they wanted to make him seem weaker and it added tension, but that is how I see it i.e. you take the long shot for a peaceful resolution, but know full well it probably won't happen, and prepare for the upcoming battle.

It was Tyrion's plan not Jaime's.  Tyrion convinced Dany that it would work.  Jaime wasn't even there when Tyrion met the 2nd time with Cersei and she finally agreed.  It was a stupid plan.  Cersei had no incentive to follow through on it.  Cersei would have been the greatest idiot in GOT to actually send her troops up north.  She'd have been handing the throne to Dany. 

As for the slavers, Dany was gone with Drogon when Tyrion made the peace overture.  The only troops he had were the Unsullied and the Second Sons who weren't even able to control the uprising in the city.  By asking for a peace meeting, he confirmed their weakness.  When the fleet showed up, Tyrion's forces were outmatched.  It wasn't until Dany showed up with the dragons and the Dothraki that the tables were turned.

I know it was Tyrion's plan, but Jamie bought in.  If Jamie thought it was a bad idea, Tyrion would have as well.  Tyrion has always believed in Jamie.

The Unsullied and Second Sons are a fighting force, they aren't a police force.  A straight up battle would have been a slaughter in their direction.  A few terrorist attacks here and there are no where near the same thing as a straight up battle.  There is no way that fleet and the "army" they had would have stood a chance on the field of battle against the Unsullied.  It would have been a massacre.  There were quotes to that effect (I think they might have been in the books even).  The show paints this in a vastly different way then I suspect the books will doing because of the drama aspect. 

[nickagneta]

I think most, if not all, in the crypts die. I don't see Tyrion being there though. I see him being out of the crypt and surviving.

I think Theon and the Ironborn die protecting Bran, who survives, as for men to survive long term, the history of men and Children, must survive.

Trying to figure out who will die, I am looking at, men winning eventually and Dany and Jon taking the throne together, breaking the wheel of only one ruler. Both will rule.

So I got Samwell Tarley taking over Warden of the South with the Tyrells and Martells gone and Sam as the lone male survivor of the Tarleys.

Jamie becomes Warden of the West as last surviving member of the Lannisters. I think Tyrion dies killing Cersei.

Gendry takes over as head of the Baratheon family with Arya as his wife.

Sansa becomes Warden of the North.

Yara ends up ruling the Iron Isles as Euron's fleet is destroyed by dragons.

Lots of the supporting characters are going to die. Lots.

[kraidstar]

IMO Arya and Gendry will take the throne.

Jon Snow is idealistic and will have to die (again) to achieve his goals. He is a classic Christ-like figure and does not belong in the world that he will save.

Dany will make some sort of mistake which will be her undoing. She might possibly prove to be unstable like her father. Or her distrust of others will cost her. She represents magic and dragons, and I think she too will not inherit the world she is creating.

Cersei won't win because she is pure evil.

Sansa has a chance. Tyrion has an outside shot. He is the wisest and most stable of all the characters.

But Arya and Gendry I think make the most sense from a writing standpoint. George Martin clearly loves the character, and so does everyone else. She is cunning and violent enough to survive the coming war and yet she has enough of a moral compass that she would make for a fine leader.

And now she might be carrying the former King's grandson.

Dendry has a royal pedigree and as good a claim as anyone to the throne - especially with the backing of an empowered Arya Stark. He also makes a fine counterbalance to Arya's personality. I think the other Starks will die and she will inherit the North. She then uses Dendry's heritage to claim the throne. Their marriage and baby unites the South and North, and everyone lives happily ever after.

Tyrion is not wise.  Cersei played him like a fiddle.  The Masters played him.  A wise man knows when to keep his mouth shut but Tyrion likes to hear the sound of his voice too much. 

Dendry and Arya would make terrible rulers.  They've showed no leadership ability or desire to lead.

Tyrion has regressed badly the past few seasons; bunch of bad decisions, some cynical and perhaps weak (slavers), some too soft-hearted (believing Cersei could sacrifice for the common good).

That said, remember Jorah's speech, about everyone making mistakes? I wonder if he's due for some redemption.

I don't know that he really believed in Cersei so much as he believed in Jamie.  If Jamie wasn't so gung ho, I don't think Tyrion would have believed Cersei. 

And he really didn't mess up all that much with the slavers because at the end of the day, he knew his side had superior forces and that the odds of the slavers ever actually giving up (without being decimated) was almost zero.  And the reality is that the betrayal actually worked out much greater in Dany's favor as it got her the ships she needed to sail to the Seven Kingdoms and it ended the slavers without a long drawn out war where her forces would have been weakened.  Now the show didn't portray Tyrion this way because they wanted to make him seem weaker and it added tension, but that is how I see it i.e. you take the long shot for a peaceful resolution, but know full well it probably won't happen, and prepare for the upcoming battle.

It was Tyrion's plan not Jaime's.  Tyrion convinced Dany that it would work.  Jaime wasn't even there when Tyrion met the 2nd time with Cersei and she finally agreed.  It was a stupid plan.  Cersei had no incentive to follow through on it.  Cersei would have been the greatest idiot in GOT to actually send her troops up north.  She'd have been handing the throne to Dany. 

As for the slavers, Dany was gone with Drogon when Tyrion made the peace overture.  The only troops he had were the Unsullied and the Second Sons who weren't even able to control the uprising in the city.  By asking for a peace meeting, he confirmed their weakness.  When the fleet showed up, Tyrion's forces were outmatched.  It wasn't until Dany showed up with the dragons and the Dothraki that the tables were turned.

Well, ignoring the threat of the undead army is suicidal. I think Jaime and Tyrion underestimated just how insane their sister is. Which is realistic. A sane mind believes that even the craziest and most evil people have some good in them, or at least enough of a sense of self-preservation to put grudges aside in the name of mutual survival. Cersei unfortunately does not possess these qualities - she is almost unbelievably evil. Her siblings tried to get her help and they failed, leaving them in the same situation they would have been in otherwise.

Not extending the olive branch would have been much more foolish. The Dead King is marching regardless. The only other option besides a truce was an immediate war with Cersei which would have left the North undefended and the winner of the war greatly weakened.

It was a no-win situation.

[Moranis]

I think most, if not all, in the crypts die. I don't see Tyrion being there though. I see him being out of the crypt and surviving.

I think Theon and the Ironborn die protecting Bran, who survives, as for men to survive long term, the history of men and Children, must survive.

Trying to figure out who will die, I am looking at, men winning eventually and Dany and Jon taking the throne together, breaking the wheel of only one ruler. Both will rule.

So I got Samwell Tarley taking over Warden of the South with the Tyrells and Martells gone and Sam as the lone male survivor of the Tarleys.

Jamie becomes Warden of the West as last surviving member of the Lannisters. I think Tyrion dies killing Cersei.

Gendry takes over as head of the Baratheon family with Arya as his wife.

Sansa becomes Warden of the North.

Yara ends up ruling the Iron Isles as Euron's fleet is destroyed by dragons.

Lots of the supporting characters are going to die. Lots.

Basically what I had, except I think Jamie kills Cersei (not Tyrion) and Jon kills Dany to trigger the prophecy and defeat the Night King (I also think she turns on him giving basically no choice and he almost accidentally triggers the prophecy).  All of those survivors that you have, all loyal to Jon right now except Yara (Dany and she would absolutely support Jon if he was left) and Jamie (though he is far more likely to support Jon than Dany and Dany would probably kill him anyway for killer her father something Jon doesn't seem as hung up on). 

I really don't see Dany living.  She is a very strong fighter, but a terrible leader, and I just can't see her sharing the throne with anyone, especially someone with a stronger claim (he is not only a male relative but the child of her older brother, such that even if he was a female he would have had a stronger claim). 

[Celtics4ever]

   She is a very strong fighter,

Not really, she has never killed anyone.   Her dragons and troops are what her tough, not herself personally.

I saw white walkers outside of Winterfell but I saw no Nightking.   Did he split his army?  Send half south and half north.

[nickagneta]

I think most, if not all, in the crypts die. I don't see Tyrion being there though. I see him being out of the crypt and surviving.

I think Theon and the Ironborn die protecting Bran, who survives, as for men to survive long term, the history of men and Children, must survive.

Trying to figure out who will die, I am looking at, men winning eventually and Dany and Jon taking the throne together, breaking the wheel of only one ruler. Both will rule.

So I got Samwell Tarley taking over Warden of the South with the Tyrells and Martells gone and Sam as the lone male survivor of the Tarleys.

Jamie becomes Warden of the West as last surviving member of the Lannisters. I think Tyrion dies killing Cersei.

Gendry takes over as head of the Baratheon family with Arya as his wife.

Sansa becomes Warden of the North.

Yara ends up ruling the Iron Isles as Euron's fleet is destroyed by dragons.

Lots of the supporting characters are going to die. Lots.

Basically what I had, except I think Jamie kills Cersei (not Tyrion) and Jon kills Dany to trigger the prophecy and defeat the Night King (I also think she turns on him giving basically no choice and he almost accidentally triggers the prophecy).  All of those survivors that you have, all loyal to Jon right now except Yara (Dany and she would absolutely support Jon if he was left) and Jamie (though he is far more likely to support Jon than Dany and Dany would probably kill him anyway for killer her father something Jon doesn't seem as hung up on). 

I really don't see Dany living.  She is a very strong fighter, but a terrible leader, and I just can't see her sharing the throne with anyone, especially someone with a stronger claim (he is not only a male relative but the child of her older brother, such that even if he was a female he would have had a stronger claim).

If Dany doesn't survive then Jon loses the Dothraki and the Unsullied and maybe even any surviving dragons. Even more so if it is found out he killed Dany. Jon killing Dany could even cause the Dothraki and Unsullied to turn on Jon and his army.

The survivors of the North and the Vale won't be enough to beat Cersei's army. With Dany dying, especially at the hands of Jon, Jon loses tremendous amounts of power.

I think Dany has to survive. Only she controls the power to defeat Cersei's army.

[fairweatherfan]

   She is a very strong fighter,

Not really, she has never killed anyone. 

She singlehandedly murdered every Khal in Vaes Dothrak, it's how she won them over for good.


Am I nuts or does nobody know Jaime pushed Bran out the window besides Bran? If I remember right he couldn't recall it at first, but wild that he never told anybody since.

[Moranis]

I think most, if not all, in the crypts die. I don't see Tyrion being there though. I see him being out of the crypt and surviving.

I think Theon and the Ironborn die protecting Bran, who survives, as for men to survive long term, the history of men and Children, must survive.

Trying to figure out who will die, I am looking at, men winning eventually and Dany and Jon taking the throne together, breaking the wheel of only one ruler. Both will rule.

So I got Samwell Tarley taking over Warden of the South with the Tyrells and Martells gone and Sam as the lone male survivor of the Tarleys.

Jamie becomes Warden of the West as last surviving member of the Lannisters. I think Tyrion dies killing Cersei.

Gendry takes over as head of the Baratheon family with Arya as his wife.

Sansa becomes Warden of the North.

Yara ends up ruling the Iron Isles as Euron's fleet is destroyed by dragons.

Lots of the supporting characters are going to die. Lots.

Basically what I had, except I think Jamie kills Cersei (not Tyrion) and Jon kills Dany to trigger the prophecy and defeat the Night King (I also think she turns on him giving basically no choice and he almost accidentally triggers the prophecy).  All of those survivors that you have, all loyal to Jon right now except Yara (Dany and she would absolutely support Jon if he was left) and Jamie (though he is far more likely to support Jon than Dany and Dany would probably kill him anyway for killer her father something Jon doesn't seem as hung up on). 

I really don't see Dany living.  She is a very strong fighter, but a terrible leader, and I just can't see her sharing the throne with anyone, especially someone with a stronger claim (he is not only a male relative but the child of her older brother, such that even if he was a female he would have had a stronger claim).

If Dany doesn't survive then Jon loses the Dothraki and the Unsullied and maybe even any surviving dragons. Even more so if it is found out he killed Dany. Jon killing Dany could even cause the Dothraki and Unsullied to turn on Jon and his army.

The survivors of the North and the Vale won't be enough to beat Cersei's army. With Dany dying, especially at the hands of Jon, Jon loses tremendous amounts of power.

I think Dany has to survive. Only she controls the power to defeat Cersei's army.

Jon will have Rhaegal and will have defeated the army of the dead.  He will have enough power and influence to defeat hired guns who don't actually have loyalty to anything other than a buck.

[Moranis]

   She is a very strong fighter,

Not really, she has never killed anyone. 

She singlehandedly murdered every Khal in Vaes Dothrak, it's how she won them over for good.


Am I nuts or does nobody know Jaime pushed Bran out the window besides Bran? If I remember right he couldn't recall it at first, but wild that he never told anybody since.

and I obviously meant it as a leader.  For example, Jamie was one of the most skilled swordsmen in the Seven Kingdoms, but he was a terrible general.  Dany has always been skilled at leading men in battle as well as strategically.  She is a terrible ruler though.  She proved that across the pond and in her short time in Seven Kingdoms. 

[mobilija]

What’s with the big white wolf in the scene where Jon, Sam and other wall survivor guy were chatting it up like frat brothers on the battlements?

Foreshadowing? Just a random”not Ghost” wolf? A scene shot several seasons ago?

Just thought it was a little bizarre and confusing...

[LarBrd33]

What’s with the big white wolf in the scene where Jon, Sam and other wall survivor guy were chatting it up like frat brothers on the battlements?

Foreshadowing? Just a random”not Ghost” wolf? A scene shot several seasons ago?

Just thought it was a little bizarre and confusing...

It was Ghost.  He's been around, but they just haven't really showed him.

[LarBrd33]

I can't get over the fact that Jon Snow witnessed this and thinks it's a smart idea to put everyone in the crypts where there are tons of dead people: 



Seems pretty stupid

[Phantom255x]

I can't get over the fact that Jon Snow witnessed this and thinks it's a smart idea to put everyone in the crypts where there are tons of dead people: 



Seems pretty stupid

Yeah that crypt scene will be ugly.