What works with women better: Nice guy or jerk?

[TradeProposalDude]

My entire life, society has told me that success with success with women boils down to having bad boy characteristics - and having an edge.

I'm quite the opposite of a jerk if you were to meet me, but by the same token I'm no pushover either. I could get my fair share of average looking ladies, but they aren't exactly a catch for most of the bachelors out there to start out with.

I'm referring to the top tier, highly coveted women. I have friends that nab them with consistency. And they aren't exactly jerks, though they do tend to do well using their "jerk" gimmicks. Surprisingly they are effective with them. The bar room gimmicks, as I'd like to call them.

I'm not really looking to get your middle of the road chick. How do you get the upper echelon chick to like you without being a jerk? I'm in my early 20's if you were wondering, and I have my own pad (live there myself) and job so it's not like I don't have roadblocks like living with a mother.

It sounds like a straightforward question but I have so much trouble a lot of the time without getting nervous around the "better" looking women. It sucks getting put into the friend category. Laugh at me you may, but I'm sure most of you have encountered the same problem at some point in your lives.

It's a weird question to ask someone in real life, so I'm assuming on a message board setting, honest and well thought out responses are likely to be provided. And I know this is like the 2nd or 3rd woman related thread this  week or month, so if you're wondering if I'm trying to turn the off topic board into a sop fest, the answer is no.

[Roy Hobbs]

Eh...  don't take this the wrong way, but if you consider physical attractiveness to be the determining factor in separating "top tier, highly coveted women" / "upper echelon chicks" from "middle of the road chicks", I think you might want to try to perfect the "jerk" routine.

Perhaps this is just my old age showing through, but seriously, looks aren't everything.

[davefromnatick]

My entire life, society has told me that success with success with women boils down to having bad boy characteristics - and having an edge.

I'm quite the opposite of a jerk if you were to meet me, but by the same token I'm no pushover either. I could get my fair share of average looking ladies, but they aren't exactly a catch for most of the bachelors out there to start out with.

I'm referring to the top tier, highly coveted women. I have friends that nab them with consistency. And they aren't exactly jerks, though they do tend to do well using their "jerk" gimmicks. Surprisingly they are effective with them. The bar room gimmicks, as I'd like to call them.

I'm not really looking to get your middle of the road chick. How do you get the upper echelon chick to like you without being a jerk? I'm in my early 20's if you were wondering, and I have my own pad (live there myself) and job so it's not like I don't have roadblocks like living with a mother.

It sounds like a straightforward question but I have so much trouble a lot of the time without getting nervous around the "better" looking women. It sucks getting put into the friend category. Laugh at me you may, but I'm sure most of you have encountered the same problem at some point in your lives.

It's a weird question to ask someone in real life, so I'm assuming on a message board setting, honest and well thought out responses are likely to be provided. And I know this is like the 2nd or 3rd woman related thread this  week or month, so if you're wondering if I'm trying to turn the off topic board into a sop fest, the answer is no.

Is this ground for a TammyPoint?   Seriously, don't worry about it.  That's the way life is.   Hot chicks think nice guys are safe.  "I don't want to lose you as a friend" is the kiss of death.  Approach a group of hot girls, but not the hottest one.  That's the way to seal the deal.

[BigThreePeat]

As someone who just successfully closed the deal exactly 16 minutes ago (she just left) with a fairly hot 28 year old girl who has been calling herself a lesbian for the last 6 years... I can say with 100% confidence and sincerity that "jerk" will win the vast majority of the time.

Obviously different depending on the girl.  And obviously it depends on the kind of girl you're trying to get and what you want to get out of it.  When people say, "treat them like trash", they don't mean you go out there and insult them.  The concept is more about keeping their self esteem low by ignoring their calls, not treating them like princesses and giving them backwards compliments.  Sadly (and truthfully) the majority of girls will lose interest if they know they can have you.  Kinda lame.   Obviously over time you can get that relationship to grow, but if you are asking "is it easier to court girls by being a punk or being a sweetheart" it obviously works best to be the punk.

Man, but yesterday I had the gist of this conversation with my best friend who has been single for 8 months and can't understand why all the girls he meets lose interest.   The problem is, he'll meet them and immediately tell them how he broke up with his ex... and 5 hours later he's telling them how amazing and how beautiful they are and how much he wants to continue to see them.   Actually... two days ago I had to go rent the movie "Swingers" and force him to sit through it.  He's a spitting image of "Mikey" in swingers.  He sits around sulking about his ex all day and refuses to go out meeting women.  WHen I do drag him out to meet women, he finds a way to blow it for himself.   He is TOTALLY Mikey from Swingers.   And that movie is pretty darn honest with how these things work.   Vince Vaughn's character is a total cocky egotistical punk in the movie, but he meets boatloads of women who fall over him.  Meanwhile, the "Mikey" character remains true to the "nice guy" routine up until the very end.   The "nice guy" routine eventually works and you presume he lives happily ever after.   And it's the same as in real life... you can continue to treat girls like princesses and have success.  No doubt.  Depends on the girl.    But generally... in this day of age...  my suggestion would be to just not overwhelm them with grovelling compliments.  It'll work out better in the end.

  

[TradeProposalDude]

As someone who just successfully closed the deal exactly 16 minutes ago (she just left) with a fairly hot 28 year old girl who has been calling herself a lesbian for the last 6 years... I can say with 100% confidence and sincerity that "jerk" will win the vast majority of the time.

Obviously different depending on the girl.  And obviously it depends on the kind of girl you're trying to get and what you want to get out of it.  When people say, "treat them like trash", they don't mean you go out there and insult them.  The concept is more about keeping their self esteem low by ignoring their calls, not treating them like princesses and giving them backwards compliments.  Sadly (and truthfully) the majority of girls will lose interest if they know they can have you.  Kinda lame.   Obviously over time you can get that relationship to grow, but if you are asking "is it easier to court girls by being a punk or being a sweetheart" it obviously works best to be the punk.

Man, but yesterday I had the gist of this conversation with my best friend who has been single for 8 months and can't understand why all the girls he meets lose interest.   The problem is, he'll meet them and immediately tell them how he broke up with his ex... and 5 hours later he's telling them how amazing and how beautiful they are and how much he wants to continue to see them.   Actually... two days ago I had to go rent the movie "Swingers" and force him to sit through it.  He's a spitting image of "Mikey" in swingers.  He sits around sulking about his ex all day and refuses to go out meeting women.  WHen I do drag him out to meet women, he finds a way to blow it for himself.   He is TOTALLY Mikey from Swingers.   And that movie is pretty darn honest with how these things work.   Vince Vaughn's character is a total cocky egotistical punk in the movie, but he meets boatloads of women who fall over him.  Meanwhile, the "Mikey" character remains true to the "nice guy" routine up until the very end.   The "nice guy" routine eventually works and you presume he lives happily ever after.   And it's the same as in real life... you can continue to treat girls like princesses and have success.  No doubt.  Depends on the girl.    But generally... in this day of age...  my suggestion would be to just not overwhelm them with grovelling compliments.  It'll work out better in the end.

 

That's the funny thing though dude. I'm not a pushover even around beautiful women. I don't ever feel the need to "compromise" my worth by buying flowers and stuff. I'm not that kind of guy. I do however get nervous, like I am not good with eye contact, and I just in general tend to be afraid to say the wrong thing. I know that I'll have to muster up a little courage to do things like making backhanded compliments but I'm just afraid I'll look shallow and she'll perceive me as fragmented because that unpredictable behavior doesn't really match my rather predictable personality.

[BigThreePeat]

Let me clarify a little what I mean.   I don't think the "bad boy" thing really means guys who drive motorcycles and hate their mother.   That's not what I'm talking about.  

I mean if you're the kind of guy who is looking for a long term relationships with an adorable sweet christian girl who waits 3 months to do "anything"... obviously approach that accordingly.

But in the interest of honestly since we're all adults here, if you're the kinda guy who is looking to meet girls and hook up with them (shocking)... well then being a "nice guy" probably isn't going to get you very far.

Quick example:  I go out with a group of friends a couple weeks ago.  My buddy Jeff has been single for 8 months.  He's crushing on this girl he met.  The girl is the best friend of his best friend's fiance.  Anyways... he's been crushing on this girl for a few weeks now.  He's been talking to her on myspace, complimenting her pictures, following her around like a puppydog at parties, buying her drinks,  opening the door for her when they car pool to clubs, making silly "safe jokes" and even holding her hand as they cross the street.    We all go out partying and my buddy Alex talks to Jeff.  Heres the gist:

Alex: "what's up with the girl?  She yours?".  
Jeff: "no no... she's just a friend".  
Alex:  "man... she's pretty cute.  You should get with that"
Jeff: "no man, she's just a friend"
Alex:  "Yeah, but do you like her?  Make a move, man..."
Jeff: "Man just let me do what i do"

Jeff wasn't being the wolf.  He was being the safe "friend".   Alex figures to himself, "well if Jeff doesn't have the manhood to do it, I'm gonna".   Alex spends the rest of the night flirting with her, saying all sorts of "adult oriented" jokes,  insinuating various "adult oriented" things with the girl... and generally painting the picture, "Yo... I got one thing on my mind lady... take it or leave it".

Flash forward a couple hours... Jeff is sitting in the corner by himself and Alex is on the dance floor as she's drunkenly grinding all over him and saying umm... various "adult oriented" suggestions on where the night should go.    I had to pull them apart.   Alex has a girlfriend and he was too drunk to be thinking straight.

The point?  Pretty typical... the jerk will get what he wants the majority of the time.  Don't blame the guy who takes advantage of this fact.  It's just the way the majority of women seem to work.  *shrug*.

The whole conundrum is pretty well summed up in "Swingers"

 TRENT
                   That's what I'm telling you, baby.  The
                   babies love that stuff.  They don't want
                   all that sensitive ___.  You start
                   talking to them about puppy dogs and ice
                   cream.  They know what you want.  What do
                   you think?  You think they don't?

                             MIKE
                   I know.  I know.

                             TRENT
                   They know what you want, believe me.
                   Pretending is just a waste of time.
                   You're gonna take them there eventually
                   anyway.  Don't apologize for it.
                             MIKE
                   I'm just trying to be a gentleman, show
                   some respect...

                             TRENT
                   Respect, my ___.  They respect honesty.
                   You see how they dress when they go out?
                   They want to be noticed.  You're just
                   showing them it's working.  You gotta get
                   off this respect kick, baby.  There aint
                   nothing wrong with letting them now that
                   you're money and that you want to party.
[/quote}

[Redz]

My wife loves me and that's really the only opinion I care about any more.  As she likes to say she had to "kiss some frogs" first before me.  Being the nice guy is not a good routine for picking up "hot chicks", but eventually it can be the basis for a real relationship. 

Your answer: 

short term: jerk
long term: nice guy

[bdm860]

Eh...  don't take this the wrong way, but if you consider physical attractiveness to be the determining factor in separating "top tier, highly coveted women" / "upper echelon chicks" from "middle of the road chicks", I think you might want to try to perfect the "jerk" routine.

Perhaps this is just my old age showing through, but seriously, looks aren't everything.

I'm with you Roy, first thing I thought was this guy has the wrong priorities.  I think TradeProposalDude's top tier girls are a dime a dozen.  Sounds like you're chasing after the wrong thing, but to each his own.  Maybe you'll perfect the jerk routine, get those shallow, superificial women, but then after a little while you'll get bored with the lack of substance, desire something more, and be back here with a similar post, except you'll be asking how to get a girl that you can have a relationship with that will last.

Said the dude who's single 

[BigThreePeat]

My wife loves me and that's really the only opinion I care about any more.  As she likes to say she had to "kiss some frogs" first before me.  Being the nice guy is not a good routine for picking up "hot chicks", but eventually it can be the basis for a real relationship. 

Your answer: 

short term: jerk
long term: nice guy

Agreed.   Definitely agreed.   TradeProposalDude... just go rent "Swingers".  If you're looking to hook up with the hot chick at the bar eating olives, tell her to get her little butt the dance floor and start shaking her moneymaker.   If you're looking for a long term relationship with an adorable swing-dancing Heather Grahm... just be yourself.    Eventually it'll probably work out.

[Edgar]

Eh...  don't take this the wrong way, but if you consider physical attractiveness to be the determining factor in separating "top tier, highly coveted women" / "upper echelon chicks" from "middle of the road chicks", I think you might want to try to perfect the "jerk" routine.

Perhaps this is just my old age showing through, but seriously, looks aren't everything.

No... wallet too....

P.S. not entirely serious but not entirely joking.

[indeedproceed]

Swingers is a good movie to strike the perfect balance between jerk and nice.

My advice: be these thing in this order: be positive, be confident, be nice, and play dumb a little, especially about inferred meanings.

By play dumb I don't mean seem unintelligent, I mean be (or try to appear to be) completely unassuming. Ask questions, be interested, and unless you're talking about some sad or really emotional stuff, have a smile on your face.

I don't know if that doesn't make sense but it sums up my approach pretty well.

[blackbird]

Don't try to be something you're not- just have confidence in who you are.

When Otis Redding was asked what it meant to "have soul" his reply was something to the effect of "having soul is just having 100% confidence in yourself."

If you want to have success in life (with women or otherwise), you gotta be soulful. Be yourself. It's the confidence that attracts people, not a bad boy act.

[Tnerb02]

NSFW:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVcyNANK5cY

I think the OP needs a pair of these.

[blackbird]

As someone who just successfully closed the deal exactly 16 minutes ago (she just left) ...

No offense, brother, but if you're on Celticsblog (in the offseason no less) only a few minutes after gettin it on... well I think it may be time to re-examine your life. The first step to recovery is admitting you have an addiction.

[Celtic Fan Forever]

As someone who just successfully closed the deal exactly 16 minutes ago (she just left) ...

No offense, brother, but if you're on Celticsblog (in the offseason no less) only a few minutes after gettin it on... well I think it may be time to re-examine your life. The first step to recovery is admitting you have an addiction.

LOL, TP