2013 CB Draft: Eastern First Round: Cleveland(3) vs Orlando(6)

[Rondo2287]

Honestly, I think this is kind of a dream matchup for Cleveland.  I can see TA and the interior Defense for Cleveland turning Kobe into a serious low efficiency scorer in this series. 

Well, I think that needs to be looked at from both directions.  Cleveland has only two above-average scorers in their starting lineup, and they're matched directly with our best defenders.  Lawson's going to struggle to get space against Hill, and while Asik can't blanket Horford all over the court, he can force him out of the post and clamp down on pick+rolls, leaving him with contested midrange jumpers.  Take away Lawson's high-percentage looks and make Horford a jumpshooter and Cleveland's offense gets real ugly real fast.  Bring Crawford in and you might make a few more contested deep jumpers, but there's now a major defensive issue, and the ball movement gets even worse.

Meanwhile, we have 1 elite scorer flanked by 3 competent, effective scorers in the starting lineup, and one efficient garbage man in Asik who's also gotten high praise from his coaches for the shots he frees up for others in the offense.  Plus Jack and Amar'e, among the most offensively effective bench guards and bigs in the league, coming in for an additional punch, and a championship-caliber coach who can run circles around Hollins on strategy and adjustments to boot. 

This series will be a defensive struggle, both teams have strong defenders at multiple positions.  Points will come dearly for both teams.  But as Who pointed out, Cleveland just doesn't have enough offensive weapons, and we do.  They'll have a lot more trouble scoring on us than we will on them.

Very good counter points.  TP for the well thought out response.

[AB_Celtic]

Honestly, I think this is kind of a dream matchup for Cleveland.  I can see TA and the interior Defense for Cleveland turning Kobe into a serious low efficiency scorer in this series. 

Well, I think that needs to be looked at from both directions.  Cleveland has only two above-average scorers in their starting lineup, and they're matched directly with our best defenders.  Lawson's going to struggle to get space against Hill, and while Asik can't blanket Horford all over the court, he can force him out of the post and clamp down on pick+rolls, leaving him with contested midrange jumpers.  Take away Lawson's high-percentage looks and make Horford a jumpshooter and Cleveland's offense gets real ugly real fast.  Bring Crawford in and you might make a few more contested deep jumpers, but there's now a major defensive issue, and the ball movement gets even worse.

Meanwhile, we have 1 elite scorer flanked by 3 competent, effective scorers in the starting lineup, and one efficient garbage man in Asik who's also gotten high praise from his coaches for the shots he frees up for others in the offense.  Plus Jack and Amar'e, among the most offensively effective bench guards and bigs in the league, coming in for an additional punch, and a championship-caliber coach who can run circles around Hollins on strategy and adjustments to boot. 

This series will be a defensive struggle, both teams have strong defenders at multiple positions.  Points will come dearly for both teams.  But as Who pointed out, Cleveland just doesn't have enough offensive weapons, and we do.  They'll have a lot more trouble scoring on us than we will on them.

Very good counter points.  TP for the well thought out response.

Cleveland has only two above-average scorers in their starting lineup, and they're matched directly with our best defenders.

Meanwhile, we have 1 elite scorer flanked by 3 competent, effective scorers in the starting lineup... plus Jack and Amar'e

Guess where one of our best defenders is? On that elite scorer. If you can simply negate our two best scorers because you have good defenders on them, then we can negate yours. Kobe's the best scorer of Kobe, Lawson, Horford, but I'd take TA as a defender over Hill and Asik.

And are you calling KG and Butler incompetent scorers? Both put up more than 10ppg last year and were very effective in doing so. Jack and Crawford both do the same thing, but edge Crawford in my book. And again, you don't even know if Amar'e will be healthy, but Landry will be, and he's also an excellent scorer, efficiency-wise.

[dark_lord]

i voted...CLE

[nickagneta]

Pretty sure I am going Cavs as well

[fairweatherfan]

Better #1 guy, better coaching, better bench, better playoff experience, better offense, equal defense.  Consensus: Gonna lose.  Eh, what can ya do?

[Roy H.]

Better #1 guy, better coaching, better bench, better playoff experience, better offense, equal defense.  Consensus: Gonna lose.  Eh, what can ya do?

Not draft Kobe.

I think people are a little skeptical of Kobe, after we just saw his team struggle spectacularly fail despite being in the top-two in terms of talent.

[KGs Knee]

I'll say this, this series is definitely not going to be decided by the SF's.  Wow, both teams seem terrible at that position.  I guess the edge has to go to Orlando though.

Still completely undecided though.  I just don't buy Horford/KG as being all that better than Asik/Millsap.  Sure, they have the 'sexier" names, but we all know how little I care about that.  And besides, Kobe is obviously the biggest "name" of them all.

This is really the last series I have yet to make up my mind on.

[AB_Celtic]

Personally, I can't see a team led by a 36-year-old Kobe Bryant winning a playoff series without a right hand man next to Kobe... someone significantly better than anything Orlando has on it's roster, including Amar'e (who can't be relied on to be healthy).

Probably the last I'll say on this thread. Gotta finish packing.

[ronaldo943]

I think this is one of those series where if it was played on any other website Orlando would win. I mean George Hill clearly has showed that he will bother Ty and Ty will average under .400 for the playoffs. We all know Jamal will choke once again especially if Kobe is guarding him. So you have 2 guys shooting under .400 and these are 2 of your 3 "main" scorers. Clearly stats have shown that Allen makes life harder for Kobe, but not impossible and Kobe is still going to get his points. I mean you guys make it seem like Allen is better than Kobe. Kobe>>>Allen. The only "favorable" matchup I see for Cleveland is Horford vs Asik, but in the 2 games they played this season Asik had double the amount of rebounds than Horford so if Orlando is winning the rebounding margin and Cleveland's 2 out of 3 main scorers are being inefficient and combining for 28 (at the max) I can't see how Cleveland wins.



In another note I definitely see Cleveland beating New York/Boston.

[AB_Celtic]

I think this is one of those series where if it was played on any other website Orlando would win. I mean George Hill clearly has showed that he will bother Ty and Ty will average under .400 for the playoffs. We all know Jamal will choke once again especially if Kobe is guarding him. So you have 2 guys shooting under .400 and these are 2 of your 3 "main" scorers. Clearly stats have shown that Allen makes life harder for Kobe, but not impossible and Kobe is still going to get his points. I mean you guys make it seem like Allen is better than Kobe. Kobe>>>Allen. The only "favorable" matchup I see for Cleveland is Horford vs Asik, but in the 2 games they played this season Asik had double the amount of rebounds than Horford so if Orlando is winning the rebounding margin and Cleveland's 2 out of 3 main scorers are being inefficient and combining for 28 (at the max) I can't see how Cleveland wins.



In another note I definitely see Cleveland beating New York/Boston.

Jeepers ron. Do I really have to keep doing this?

There isn't enough evidence that Hill can bother Ty. Only three games where they played legitimate minutes together, and in two of them Ty did well. And as I showed with my Tony Allen video post, the stats don't always tell the story. Basketball-reference player comparisons are useless.

Air and I have told you why you can't just expect Crawford to shoot below .400 at least 3 times now. I'm not repeating myself again.

In no way and in zero posts have I said that Tony Allen is better than Kobe Bryant. But I have said (and Kobe has said) that Allen can contain him better than anyone. Please refer to the video post. I'll even give you the link:

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=67493.msg1548297#msg1548297

Asik got tons of rebounds because he was the only good rebounder on the Rockets last year. And yes, Horford will have no trouble scoring on him.

If you still want to vote Orlando, that's your prerogative, but I'm pretty sick of seeing the same arguments pop up over and over again, especially when I've already refuted them. If you wanted to continue the conversation from one of my earlier posts, I think that's fine too, but here all you're doing is re-raising issues I've already discussed and (IMO) shut down.

Good day, sir.

"But, AB..."

[ronaldo943]

I think this is one of those series where if it was played on any other website Orlando would win. I mean George Hill clearly has showed that he will bother Ty and Ty will average under .400 for the playoffs. We all know Jamal will choke once again especially if Kobe is guarding him. So you have 2 guys shooting under .400 and these are 2 of your 3 "main" scorers. Clearly stats have shown that Allen makes life harder for Kobe, but not impossible and Kobe is still going to get his points. I mean you guys make it seem like Allen is better than Kobe. Kobe>>>Allen. The only "favorable" matchup I see for Cleveland is Horford vs Asik, but in the 2 games they played this season Asik had double the amount of rebounds than Horford so if Orlando is winning the rebounding margin and Cleveland's 2 out of 3 main scorers are being inefficient and combining for 28 (at the max) I can't see how Cleveland wins.



In another note I definitely see Cleveland beating New York/Boston.

Jeepers ron. Do I really have to keep doing this?

There isn't enough evidence that Hill can bother Ty. Only three games where they played legitimate minutes together, and in two of them Ty did well. And as I showed with my Tony Allen video post, the stats don't always tell the story. Basketball-reference player comparisons are useless.

Air and I have told you why you can't just expect Crawford to shoot below .400 at least 3 times now. I'm not repeating myself again.

In no way and in zero posts have I said that Tony Allen is better than Kobe Bryant. But I have said (and Kobe has said) that Allen can contain him better than anyone. Please refer to the video post. I'll even give you the link:

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=67493.msg1548297#msg1548297

Asik got tons of rebounds because he was the only good rebounder on the Rockets last year. And yes, Horford will have no trouble scoring on him.

If you still want to vote Orlando, that's your prerogative, but I'm pretty sick of seeing the same arguments pop up over and over again, especially when I've already refuted them. If you wanted to continue the conversation from one of my earlier posts, I think that's fine too, but here all you're doing is re-raising issues I've already discussed and (IMO) shut down.

Good day, sir.

"But, AB..."

Ty's FG% average against Hill past 3 games .429 (Hill only played 20 while Ty played 29 and also this happened in 2011) .100 and .412. Ty's career average against Hill's team is .394 FG% so I think there is enough evidence. Unfortunately there are no videos showing Hill's block on Ty and since "videos" tell the whole story for you I guess you're right

I have told you (and with FACTS) why Crawford will definitely shoot under .400 and I'll do it again. Jamal has a playoff career average of .380 FG% (29 games) and last year was .387 FG% (6 games) he also averaged .388 FG% against Kobe this season and against Kobe has career average of .407.

Look at these videos where Kobe makes Allen look like a fool, video man. Also Allen himself has said that there is no Kobe stopper.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GssE8N8pyb0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErIhw79QJ5Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHDd8RRmWxk

Asik got 9 offensive rebounds in one of those games against Horford so any explanation on how his team being a "bad" rebounding has anything to do with that go ahead I'll wait. I would also like to point out that Horford only got 5 rebounds (all defensive) in that game. Talk about getting dominated on the boards. I'm giving you facts not theories.


You're cute.

[AB_Celtic]

Hill's block? Singular? Yikes I'm scared. And I STILL don't believe in head-to-head comparison. I just do not. Ty has matured and he can handle Hill.

And I have told you multiple times why this is an entirely different scenario for Jamal than anyone has ever seen because of KG and Horford.

To get 9 offensive rebounds your team has to shoot like crap.

The 17 videos of TA's defense on Kobe speak volumes more than three highlight plays. Kobe can do this stuff to pretty much anyone; what I'm arguing is that Tony slows him down better than anyone. And Kobe agrees.


I'm out.

[ronaldo943]

Hill's block? Singular? Yikes I'm scared. And I STILL don't believe in player comparison. I just do not. Ty has matured and he can handle Hill.

And I have told you multiple times why this is an entirely different scenario for Jamal than anyone has ever seen because of KG and Horford.

To get 9 offensive rebounds your team has to shoot like crap.

The 17 videos of TA's defense on Kobe speak volumes more than three highlight plays. Kobe can do this stuff to pretty much anyone; what I'm arguing is that Tony slows him down better than anyone. And Kobe agrees.


I'm out.

Hah, you got me there either way Hill had 3 blocks against Ty in one game. You're right in 1 year Ty has matured and is a "big boy" so he can clearly now handle Hill, I love your logic. 

I have also told you that in 09-10 and 10-11 Crawford had Smith and Horford which I would say is offensively similar to KG and Horford and yet he still didn't do anything in the playoffs.

So by that logic Horford must be the worse rebounder ever as he only got 5 total (all defenisve) rebounds (against a team who shot like "crap" according to you) while his opponent got 19 rebounds and 9 offensive. I mean you would think that they would teach Horford how to box out.

Congrats you are going to slow down Kobe, either way he is still going to get his 25+ points.

Ciao.

[nickagneta]

i think it probably best for this convo to take a breather

[Roy H.]

Congrats you are going to slow down Kobe, either way he is still going to get his 25+ points.

Lakers' record when Kobe scored 25+ points last season:  21-29 (or something like that)