How do you rank Tatum against other Celtics legends?

[Roy H.]

...I struggle with Hondo. On the one hand, he's iconic, but also perhaps not a guy who's got an all-time game as much as all-time moments?

What do you mean in terms of him not having an all-time game?  When I think of all-time moments vs. all-time game, I think of somebody like Robert Horry.  I don't think that's what you're getting at, but I'm curious what your definition is.

He never won an MVP like some other great Celtics, but he was 13x All-Star, 11x All-NBA and 8x All-Defense.

[Moranis]

For time on Celtics only, there are only 4 players that are clearly better than him at this point, the 4 MVP's (Cousy, Russell, Cowens, Bird).  Now obviously KG was better in Minny and guys like Pierce, Hondo, McHale, and Sam had much longer careers with great success, so it is a hard question to answer.  I'd probably have him 6th behind the MVP's and KG, just ahead of Hondo and Pierce with Sam and McHale rounding out the top 10.

[Vermont Green]

...I struggle with Hondo. On the one hand, he's iconic, but also perhaps not a guy who's got an all-time game as much as all-time moments?

What do you mean in terms of him not having an all-time game?  When I think of all-time moments vs. all-time game, I think of somebody like Robert Horry.  I don't think that's what you're getting at, but I'm curious what your definition is.

He never won an MVP like some other great Celtics, but he was 13x All-Star, 11x All-NBA and 8x All-Defense.

This is qualitative but I have Bird and Russell as the top 2.  I could understand either as the top 1 but different eras, different positions, so hard to compare directly.  I will probably give the edge to Russell.

Below these two, there are so many great players.  I would probably have Pierce 3rd and Havlicek 4th.  I give points for duration of career with the Celtics, not just for how good at the peak.  Not very far behind are the likes of McHale, Heinsohn, Garnett.

Tatum, in my mind, is in the tier with Pierce and Havlicek, but still a little behind them.  I expect that he will pass both in time.  Not sure he will catch Bird and Russell but there is a chance.

[Kernewek]

...I struggle with Hondo. On the one hand, he's iconic, but also perhaps not a guy who's got an all-time game as much as all-time moments?

What do you mean in terms of him not having an all-time game?  When I think of all-time moments vs. all-time game, I think of somebody like Robert Horry.  I don't think that's what you're getting at, but I'm curious what your definition is.

He never won an MVP like some other great Celtics, but he was 13x All-Star, 11x All-NBA and 8x All-Defense.

Yeah I'm not sure I have a good one really. But I'll try to explain. My list is just a loose list of quick association with Celtics all-timers.

Russell = winning, Bird = timeless game, McHale = Broken Leg, KG = an absolute one-season culture shift, Pierce= the Celtics draft pick who broke the Bias curse, Cowens = cab driver for a season. Things like that.

Havlicek is two things first and always, for me: iconic play-by-play calls. "Havlicek steals it!" and the call for the shot he makes in double-overtime in Game 5 of the '76 Finals. Iconic. Legitimately legendary moments in basketball history. Not particularly helpful if I wanted to define where he sits based on my first impression when I read his name or think about him.

So, again, that's just my quick association, and because I've never really tried to do a strict top-X list for the Celtics I've never really done a deep dive on his game or thought about where exactly he falls in the mix - even though he's in that top rung somewhere.

[hardlyyardley]

How can you possibly mention Rondo in the same breath as Cousy or Havlicek is beyond me

[Vermont Green]

I think people's age is going to affect their impression of players.  I am old enough to remember seeing Havlicek play (on TV) some but not old enough to remember Russell in real time.  Even with that, it is hard for me to judge Havlicek against say Pierce as I watched Pierce so much more.

And with Russell, he was clearly another era of the game, Havlicek much closer to the modern game.  But the game was different even for Bird.  But in terms of era, I have Havlicek closer to Bird's or Pierce's era than to Russell's era.  Again, no real science to this, just perception.

[Kernewek]

How can you possibly mention Rondo in the same breath as Cousy or Havlicek is beyond me

Is it impossible for you to envision a world where Tatum has had, to this point (and let's say end of season), a career that is closer to a Ray- or Rondo-level career than a Cousy- or Hondo-level career?


edit for clarity, since this is what we're trying to do, right? Figure out where Tatum sits against the team's great players of the past today.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

From a pure basketball skill set, he's better than Pierce but I'm not ranking him over Pierce yet.   I've said it before, he has the highest ceiling since Bird.

He has the potential to retire as a top 5 Boston Celtic ever.

Will he get there? No idea but I hope so because that means more championships.

This feels right. On a purely 'vibes-based' basis, I think it goes something like this:

The absolute top of the mountain: Pierce, KG, McHale, Bird, Cowens, Russell. Guys like that.

The next rung: Tatum, Allen, Rondo, Parish, Ced, DJ, Heinsohn, Cousy, &c.

My 'very deep' thought process, looking at our championship squads.

From the last championship/contending core:
I would put him in line with, say, Ray & Rondo, and a wee bit behind Pierce and KG.

From The Bird-cores: He's behind McHale, Bird, and Walton (only if we're including Walton's peak - his time in Portland). On the level with Parish, Cedric Maxwell & DJ.

From the 70's he's behind Cowens and... that's it.

I'm certainly not rating him against Bill but I would take Tatum over anyone else on the Russell Dynasty C's.

No mention of Havlicek—where do you place him?

Gun to my head, probably in the top echelon. I left him out because it was a dashed-off list and I struggle with Hondo. On the one hand, he's iconic, but also perhaps not a guy who's got an all-time game as much as all-time moments?

Fair enough.

[blink]

I have him behind these fellas:
Tier 1:Bill Russell, Larry Bird
Tier 2:Havlicek, Sam Jones, Cowens, Pierce, Cousey, Parish, McHale, (KG?)

probably in the middle of the pack with these guys right now
Tier 3: (KG?), JoJo White, C. Maxwell, Tatum, Tommy H, probably others

I think you need multiple titles or a whole career in Boston to even sniff Tier 2.  Tatum just hasn't been around that long, and he hasn't won a title yet.  I know some would put KG in Tier 2.  But I dunno, I am not sure.

[Who]

He has done nothing.

He doesn't rate next to legends.

[Vermont Green]

He has done nothing.

He doesn't rate next to legends.

That is a bit harsh.  I get we all want championships but Tatum is 2 time, 1st team all-NBA in an era where there are more stars than ever:

Celtics 1st Team All-NBA List:
Bob Cousy (10), Larry Bird (9), John Havlicek (4), Bill Sharman (4), Ed Macauley (3), Bill Russell (3), Jayson Tatum (2), Kevin Garnett, Kevin McHale, Ed Sadowski.

Paul Pierce has 1 championship but was never 1st team all-NBA.  Cowens, if I have this right, won an MVP (1973) but not a 1st team all-NBA.

[Who]

He has done nothing.

He doesn't rate next to legends.

That is a bit harsh.  I get we all want championships but Tatum is 2 time, 1st team all-NBA in an era where there are more stars than ever:

Celtics 1st Team All-NBA List:
Bob Cousy (10), Larry Bird (9), John Havlicek (4), Bill Sharman (4), Ed Macauley (3), Bill Russell (3), Jayson Tatum (2), Kevin Garnett, Kevin McHale, Ed Sadowski.

Paul Pierce has 1 championship but was never 1st team all-NBA.  Cowens, if I have this right, won an MVP (1973) but not a 1st team all-NBA.

Yes, harsh. This is Boston. The place of Titans.

Individual accolades do not compare to titles. Tatum can line up behind all the winners next to the other guys who won nothing in their Celtics career.


You want to be a legend here, you gotta win.

[Vermont Green]

He has done nothing.

He doesn't rate next to legends.

That is a bit harsh.  I get we all want championships but Tatum is 2 time, 1st team all-NBA in an era where there are more stars than ever:

Celtics 1st Team All-NBA List:
Bob Cousy (10), Larry Bird (9), John Havlicek (4), Bill Sharman (4), Ed Macauley (3), Bill Russell (3), Jayson Tatum (2), Kevin Garnett, Kevin McHale, Ed Sadowski.

Paul Pierce has 1 championship but was never 1st team all-NBA.  Cowens, if I have this right, won an MVP (1973) but not a 1st team all-NBA.

Yes, harsh. This is Boston. The place of Titans.

Individual accolades do not compare to titles. Tatum can line up behind all the winners next to the other guys who won nothing in their Celtics career.


You want to be a legend here, you gotta win.

So Ted Williams is not a legend then?  I am not necessarily disagreeing with you.  Championships are part of "legend-dom".  I think you are taking it a bit too far though.

[Who]

He has done nothing.

He doesn't rate next to legends.

That is a bit harsh.  I get we all want championships but Tatum is 2 time, 1st team all-NBA in an era where there are more stars than ever:

Celtics 1st Team All-NBA List:
Bob Cousy (10), Larry Bird (9), John Havlicek (4), Bill Sharman (4), Ed Macauley (3), Bill Russell (3), Jayson Tatum (2), Kevin Garnett, Kevin McHale, Ed Sadowski.

Paul Pierce has 1 championship but was never 1st team all-NBA.  Cowens, if I have this right, won an MVP (1973) but not a 1st team all-NBA.

Yes, harsh. This is Boston. The place of Titans.

Individual accolades do not compare to titles. Tatum can line up behind all the winners next to the other guys who won nothing in their Celtics career.


You want to be a legend here, you gotta win.

So Ted Williams is not a legend then?  I am not necessarily disagreeing with you.  Championships are part of "legend-dom".  I think you are taking it a bit too far though.

Not my sport. Celtics wise = no titles, not a legend.

Pierce wouldn't be up there next to those other legends if he didn't win one late in his career. That is the standard you have live up to be a Celtics legend.

[Who]

When LeBron went to LAL, they asked will he be a Lakers legend if he fails to win a title? The consensus was no and rightly so. Now he did win one and he does get to put his name up there. Not as bright as guys who spent more of their careers there while winning like Magic, Kareem, Shaq or Kobe but still there behind them.

Then take a different guy like a D-Rose in Chicago. He is a Bulls legend despite not winning a title. Why? Because the team has little history of success outside of the 90s. The bar for what is a legend is much lower. It is easier to pass and he passed it.

For the Celtics, titles are part of the package to be a legend here. That is the bar.

Until Tatum passes that bar, he is that next group below the legends. He is with Isaiah Thomas, Antoine Walker, Ed Macauley. He wants to be up there with big boys, he's gotta win.