Folks are forgetting what its like when Avery Bradley is on the floor

[tonyto3690]

Absolutely agree with the title.

Bradley is bar-none, the best on ball defender in the NBA.  He was shooting over 50% from 3 as a starter and over 50% from the field.  He showed lightning quick agility and ability to get to the rim on his own, the ability to hit a step back jumper consistently, and was great off the ball and in transition with Rondo.  The kid has a shaky handle, but he's only like 21.

Bradley was a beast on defense and showed a lot of talent and promise on the offensive end.

More than that, he's shown he "gets it'.  Doing all the dirty work, never complaining about role, always doing what's best for the team, playing through pain for the team.  He's a blue collar Celtics who prides himself in being able to do the dirty work.

Bradley does not leave unless it's for a big time superstar in a steal of a deal.  I would almost go as far to say as he's untouchable unless it's for a top 10 player.

[Celtics18]

I never claimed Joe Johnson was a typical shooting guard. According to the numbers Bradley isn't even average against shooting guards in general. The way I see it If he can't defend shooting guards he shouldn't start next to Rondo.

http://www.82games.com/1112/11BOS2.HTM#bypos

According to the By Position numbers at 82games, over all the Celtics defense was excellent when Avery Bradley played the shooting guard position.

When Bradley was playing at shooting guard, opposing teams had an average offensive rating of 85.5.  Based on those numbers, it seems to me that he can guard the shooting guard position more than adequately.  As good a defender as he is at the point, the team's defensive numbers were even better with Avery at the off guard.

I'd guess that's a result of Rondo & Bradley > Bradley & Allen. And often times even when Bradley was playing the 2 offensively he'd defend point guards. I'm not trying to say Bradley sucks, I'm just trying to say don't retire his jersey just yet. It's way to early to put the untradeable label on him, especially when your talking an allstar in return.

I'm going to hold off on the retiring of the jersey as well.  I've said myself that I think the major conundrum about Avery Bradley is that he's at his best defensively as a point guard and he's at his best offensively as a two guard. 

Clearly, there are match ups that are going to be difficult for him at the two because of his lack of height, but it has been shown that the overall Celtics team defense has not been hurt by Bradley playing starters' minutes at shooting guard.  So, while he may be more impressive defensively as a point guard, I don't think it's accurate to say that "he can't defend shooting guards."

I'm also not trying to label him untradeable.  The point I made in another thread is that it doesn't make sense to trade him at this point, because based on his lack of NBA experience, the questions about where he fits best, and the fact that he's coming off double surgery probably adds up to meaning that we wouldn't be able to get all that much in return for him.  If we could trade him straight up for Josh Smith, sure, let's do it.  I don't think that's happening.  And, I'm not sure I want to add him in a package that depletes half our roster to bring in Josh Smith. 

[bfrombleacher]

So happy I got the BOS@BKN preseason game.

The 9-0 run was incredible. The thing is Avery Bradley had that kind of effect almost on his own.

[Mr Green]

I love Avery. He has such a huge heart and he hustles and fights for everything. Fingers crossed that he can recover completely from his shoulder surgeries and have a long and successful career with the Cs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2ZO3-Iq-t4

[ianboyextreme]

I have my doubts about Bradley. He is a great defender, but I don't think the fact that he's 6'2 should be so easily dismissed. He's spectacular against point guards, but I'm not sold on his defense against shooting guards. Blocking Dwayne Wade and consistently stopping him are two different things, do you really think he can stop Wade consistently? Anyone remember how much ATL went to JJ in the post against Bradley? Here's a reminder.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9HAOamii9c

In 5 possessions: a foul on Bradley, a missed shot, a made hook over the top, a layup, and an a assist (4 points on 2-3 shooting an assist and a drawn foul.)

Here's a quote from a great breakdown on Bradley I found while searching for defense on his not so amazing shooting guard defense.

As an isolation defender, Bradley defends both point guards and wing players.  Although he is only 6’3”, his 6’7” wingspan lets Doc Rivers feel comfortable putting him on larger players.  Overall he is a good isolation defender, ranking 86th in the NBA in points allowed per possession according to MySynergy Sports, but he truly shines when facing off against point guards, as seen in the previous video.  On 48 isolation possessions against point guards, he is allowing only 0.65 points per possession.  However, that means his numbers against wing players are not as stellar.  He is allowing one point per possession in isolation versus wing players.  That figure is much higher than the NBA average of approximately 0.8 points per isolation possession.  While Bradley’s wingspan is an advantage against point guards, most wing players have equal, if not greater, length.  The video below shows that despite Bradley’s strong effort, Gerald Henderson gets his shot off without too much trouble.

and a video of Gerald Henderson (who? yeah I know) giving AB the business a few times to get the idea across.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWS8rUqv3Pg

Unless I read that wrong it seems to suggest Bradley is a below average defender against shooting guards by the numbers. So if he can't defend the shooting guard position how much sense does it make having him out their next to Rondo? Is he really a better option at the SG spot than Lee? I'm not convinced. This is the reason why I don't consider AB untradeable and am willing to trade him for an All-star caliber player.

Edit: Poor to below average.

First of all Joe Johnson is 6'7". You could post him up against most 2 guards in the league and he will score consistently. Also, that stat, which by the way is a good stat and that site is good as well, only takes into account his defense on isolation plays. There are lots of times where the player he is guarding doesnt even get a chance to get into isolation because of Avery's defense.

I do agree that Avery is more effective guarding pg's and smaller 2 guards, but that happens a lot of the time anyway. Depending on the matchup, Rondo would guard the less threatening player. If were playing OKC, Avery guards Westbrook, and Rondo guards Sefalosha and plays safety. Regardless, Avery can guard any body under 6'7" better than most- he even packed Joe Johnson in last years playoffs, he is just truly the best in the game when guarding players between 6'2"- 6'5".

[ianboyextreme]

Also, trading Avery Bradley for Josh Smith, a border line all star, is pretty different from trading Al Jefferson for Kevin Garnett, one of the greatest players of all time.

It's not that different I don't think. Al Jefferson had a pretty underwhelming start with the C's and an injury riddled one. His second year he "broke out" after his move to center. Then we traded him for a top-10 player.

I'm not saying Smith is anywhere near Garnett. I'm also not saying that Bradley is as good as Al Jefferson was. A 6'10" center with post moves is move valuable in this league than a 6'2" shooting guard. There are exceptions but not very many.

I think moving Bradley (and probably Bass) for Smith would obviously be a less earth-shaking move but wouldn't be too much different. Remember we included a lot more than just Jefferson for Garnett. We would have to include picks for Smith too. I absolutely love Avery Bradley. I think he's a top 10 defender in the league, top 3 at shooting guard. I also think that Bradley as the center piece in a Josh Smith trade is a trade we have to make.

Unfortunately what Atlanta needs is a SF or a C. We aren't exactly gushing at either of those positions and I'm not willing to trade Jeff Green without getting a quality SF back in return. We just don't have the depth. MAYBE a Green for Smith swap and we sign Pietrus back but man I'd have to really consider that move. I'd be loathe to do it.

Maybe if Danny pulls a miracle and swings getting us Tayshaun Prince for Bass and Smith for Green I'd be floored. I'd also suspect some dealings with the devil. No judgments though!

Really I'm really happy with our team this year and unless we can add a top 20 center prospect or a franchise level talent I'd rather just keep our surprisingly skilled depth, and that includes Avery Bradley.

Are you kidding me? We "have" to make that trade?? Look at this team. Why are folks even thinking about trades. This team is gonna run people out of the building and in a couple years will have the best guard rotation in the league with Avery Bradley, Rondo, and C Lee. We dont have to make any move because this team is a beast.
Also, as much as I love Big Al, Avery is more valuable as a player because defense is more valuable than offense.

[ianboyextreme]

Joe Johnson obviously isn't the typical shooting guard. He's much bigger.

If Bradley isn't completely dominant against every single shooting guard in the league, he's replaceable?

I never claimed Joe Johnson was a typical shooting guard. According to the numbers Bradley isn't even average against shooting guards in general. The way I see it If he can't defend shooting guards he shouldn't start next to Rondo.

One thing you didn't consider is Johnson having to guard Bradley at the other end.

You might have noticed that Bradley is as quick and agile as they come.

Bradley didn't have the green light from Doc to take his man off the dribble hardly at all. We saw glimpses of sick driving ability with a soft finishing touch, once he learned to be decisive and confident, and stopped getting blocked as much.

You saw "Sick" driving ability I saw sneaky opportunistic drives. In transition he'd attack defenses that couldn't keep up with him drawing a foul or beating them up the court for a lay-up. In the half court he'd beat guys trying to close out on his jumper. Nothing spectacular just smart basketball. He has potential offensively but I don't see any reason to expect him to be better than Lee, offensively.

He's only what, 22? He's probably younger than Kris Joseph and Fab Melo. His ball handling can improve, and he's already average at worst. It was all a matter of confidence, for the most part.

I can't wait for Doc to give Bradley the green light more this year. Bradley could be a top 10 point guard in the near future if he ever got traded or Rondo got injured.

Bradley's ball handling is below average for a point-guard. He looks uncomfortable and awkward bringing the ball up court. He struggles against pressure and has a pretty weak off hand. Right now he basically has no point guard skills or ability. Yes, he's young and has a lot of time to improve but the NBA is full of those type of players. As far as I'm concerned Avery Bradley just isn't a point-guard

Scoring point guard like John Wall, with way better defense but playing behind Rondo.

Sounds like a nice dream, but It makes no sense to have two great players on the same team playing the same position. The logical thing to do would be trade the lesser player of the two, to strengthen another position of weakness.

You'll see very effective ball handling from Bradley this year, and I think he'll beat out Barbosa and Terry for back up PG too.

Bradley's proven to be a quick learner and a hardworker, but IMO he's so obviously not a point-guard. Doc has even said as much himself. Bradley could end up as good as you think he is(probably not John Wall with crazy defense good), but he could also end as just an average starter or a very good backup. I think right now it's something like 50/50. I don't think it should be taken as a slight to him when fans want to trade him for a proven all-star caliber player.

So hes definetly not a PG (which I agree with), but we shouldnt have two great players at the same position on the same team? Which is it?

[ianboyextreme]

Joe Johnson obviously isn't the typical shooting guard. He's much bigger.

If Bradley isn't completely dominant against every single shooting guard in the league, he's replaceable?

I never claimed Joe Johnson was a typical shooting guard. According to the numbers Bradley isn't even average against shooting guards in general. The way I see it If he can't defend shooting guards he shouldn't start next to Rondo.

One thing you didn't consider is Johnson having to guard Bradley at the other end.

You might have noticed that Bradley is as quick and agile as they come.

Bradley didn't have the green light from Doc to take his man off the dribble hardly at all. We saw glimpses of sick driving ability with a soft finishing touch, once he learned to be decisive and confident, and stopped getting blocked as much.

You saw "Sick" driving ability I saw sneaky opportunistic drives. In transition he'd attack defenses that couldn't keep up with him drawing a foul or beating them up the court for a lay-up. In the half court he'd beat guys trying to close out on his jumper. Nothing spectacular just smart basketball. He has potential offensively but I don't see any reason to expect him to be better than Lee, offensively.

He's only what, 22? He's probably younger than Kris Joseph and Fab Melo. His ball handling can improve, and he's already average at worst. It was all a matter of confidence, for the most part.

I can't wait for Doc to give Bradley the green light more this year. Bradley could be a top 10 point guard in the near future if he ever got traded or Rondo got injured.

Bradley's ball handling is below average for a point-guard. He looks uncomfortable and awkward bringing the ball up court. He struggles against pressure and has a pretty weak off hand. Right now he basically has no point guard skills or ability. Yes, he's young and has a lot of time to improve but the NBA is full of those type of players. As far as I'm concerned Avery Bradley just isn't a point-guard

Scoring point guard like John Wall, with way better defense but playing behind Rondo.

Sounds like a nice dream, but It makes no sense to have two great players on the same team playing the same position. The logical thing to do would be trade the lesser player of the two, to strengthen another position of weakness.

You'll see very effective ball handling from Bradley this year, and I think he'll beat out Barbosa and Terry for back up PG too.

Bradley's proven to be a quick learner and a hardworker, but IMO he's so obviously not a point-guard. Doc has even said as much himself. Bradley could end up as good as you think he is(probably not John Wall with crazy defense good), but he could also end as just an average starter or a very good backup. I think right now it's something like 50/50. I don't think it should be taken as a slight to him when fans want to trade him for a proven all-star caliber player.

Also, your claiming he "average" against sg's (which is absurd) based on one defensive situation- isolation plays.

[ianboyextreme]

I never claimed Joe Johnson was a typical shooting guard. According to the numbers Bradley isn't even average against shooting guards in general. The way I see it If he can't defend shooting guards he shouldn't start next to Rondo.

http://www.82games.com/1112/11BOS2.HTM#bypos

According to the By Position numbers at 82games, over all the Celtics defense was excellent when Avery Bradley played the shooting guard position.

When Bradley was playing at shooting guard, opposing teams had an average offensive rating of 85.5.  Based on those numbers, it seems to me that he can guard the shooting guard position more than adequately.  As good a defender as he is at the point, the team's defensive numbers were even better with Avery at the off guard.

The link you added, is about Bradley playing shooting guard.  That doesn't say anything about his ability to actually guard shooting guards.  Bradley has repeatedly struggled against shooting guards.  When we play him at SG, he either struggles, takes risks to compensate for his inefficiency, or we play him against the opposing PG, and the rest of the team covers for him against the opposing SG (who should be his man).

He's still a great defender, but if the defensive awards were based on how well u guarded your own position, I doubt he'd even be in the running at SG...he may win at PG though.

Dude, you honestly just made up the fact that he struggles against shooting guards. He is a very good 2 guard defender and a transcendent point guard defender. You (i think it was you) throw out one stat that says hes below average in isolation plays, and thats what everything your saying is resting on- not pick and roll defense, not transition defense, not spot up defense, and most importantly, not overall defense.

[ianboyextreme]

I don't think people are forgetting. I think we we have a ton of strong depth at Averys position and I think he is our biggest trade chip out of those guys. I also think in his very short career he's had 3 injuries which required surgery and have kept in out for long periods of time. Also the fact that he didn't even play half a good season of basketball will lead people to believe maybe, if his value is high to other Gms it wouldn't be crazy to see what you can get.

It works both ways. If im selling him to a GM I talk about his all world defense if im trying to convince myself to try and upgrade the roster I say he has had several injuries and has only strung together 1/4 of a good season.

There's really a risk either way. There's as much evidence to project him as a bust as there is to project him as an all star.

The same doubt was being thrown Avery's way all over this board at the beginning of last season and he thoroughly proved everybody wrong.

"There's as much evidence to project him as a bust as there is to project him as an all star."- In what way shape or form is this true? He is a young talented player who came into his own as he was expected to since high school. There is no reason or evidence to expect Avery Bradley to bust but, based on his performance the majority of last season, a lot of evidence that he will continue to succeed.

I think you are hist extremely overly sensitive if anyone doesn't gush over Bradley.

I loved bradley last year and I had hopes for him and fulfilled those for 2 months.

What evidence do you have that he is going to be some sort of all star? Boy you mist have really been riding that Jeremy Lin train last year haha.

I don't see why people get insulted over the idea of trading Bradley. Nobody wants to cut him or doesn't think he's good. Its the exact opposite because he could def be a great trade chip. Id be more insulted by people that don't even think Bradley would be able to.fetch any big names or garner any interest.

Didn't we go through this with Al Jefferson already? At least at the time he was presumed to be budding into an all star (much more so than AB) and we were trading for a guy exiting his prime (although a once in a generation talent)

So if you think AB is better and more valuable than Josh Smith and you're willing to bet the world than I can't help you there. If you are only interested in trading bad or old players that no one wants than I can't hel you there either

Im sensitive to anyone not gushing over Bradley? You just came back with a defensive response, I was simply defending Bradley. I dont like when people wanna trade any of our players, cause they have a basketball boner for someone, before we even see what this team, as currently constructed, can do.
I dont really care about him being an all star, although I think that is a possability in the future given his physical ability and work ethic. I care about how much better out team is when he is on the floor, which the numbers show, is more than true.
Also, trading Avery Bradley for Josh Smith, a border line all star, is pretty different from trading Al Jefferson for Kevin Garnett, one of the greatest players of all time.

Basically bottom line is if this team is cruising without Bradley. If Lee thrives as a starter and at least producing close to what Bradley was producing (which I think is very possible playing on this team and beside Rondo) would you then explore the possibility of trading Bradley? Is Bradley just untouchable in your opinion?

I think people throw out a lot of trade ideas that could be possibilities and could improve our team. Guys like J Smith, Andrew Bogut and Anderson Varejao intrigue us fans.. I don't think a lot of us are saying "Make this trade now" but more exploring the realistic possibility that maybe one of our strongest trade chips at by far our deepest position could help get us someone with more need and talent.

I really don't see how someone can disagree with this

If Lee provides production similar to Bradley's? That would be impossible because, although I really like Lee, he and no one in the league can play defense like Avery. I would much rather see the to of them man the shooting guard position for years to come, one as a starter and one coming off the bench.

[ianboyextreme]

What peopel are forgetting is that the kid had two shoulder surgeries and there's no telling when he's coming back, or, more importantly, what he'll look like when he does.

His defense is not predicated on his shoulders. No reason to think that will be any different.

No, his ability to be a useful NBA player is.

Uhh, his ability to be a useful NBA player is based on his defense...which is based on his legs. Your point is mute.

[Mr Green]

I don't think having a shorter than average backcourt would prevent a team from winning a championship. Being undersized didn't stop Isiah Thomas (6'1''), Joe Dumars (6'3'') and Vinnie Johnson (6'2'') winning back to back titles about 20 years ago. Miami also won with Wade (6'3''), Chalmers (6'2'') and Cole (6'2'') as their primary guard rotation throughout most of last season.

Rondo, Bradley, Terry and Lee are a great core. Sure now and then someone like Joe Johnson will post them up, but on the other side of the coin he has to worry about keeping up with the foot speed of smaller guys in transition.

Yes, good defense is played with your feet, so the condition of Avery's shoulders shouldn't adversely affect his big picture defensive abilities.

[kozlodoev]

I don't think having a shorter than average backcourt would prevent a team from winning a championship. Being undersized didn't stop Isiah Thomas (6'1''), Joe Dumars (6'3'') and Vinnie Johnson (6'2'') winning back to back titles about 20 years ago. Miami also won with Wade (6'3''), Chalmers (6'2'') and Cole (6'2'') as their primary guard rotation throughout most of last season.

Rondo, Bradley, Terry and Lee are a great core. Sure now and then someone like Joe Johnson will post them up, but on the other side of the coin he has to worry about keeping up with the foot speed of smaller guys in transition.

Yes, good defense is played with your feet, so the condition of Avery's shoulders shouldn't adversely affect his big picture defensive abilities.

Wade is 6'4. This makes him taller than any guard not named Courtney Lee on our roster. Not to mention the Heat also had Mike Miller.

[kozlodoev]

What peopel are forgetting is that the kid had two shoulder surgeries and there's no telling when he's coming back, or, more importantly, what he'll look like when he does.

His defense is not predicated on his shoulders. No reason to think that will be any different.

No, his ability to be a useful NBA player is.

Uhh, his ability to be a useful NBA player is based on his defense...which is based on his legs. Your point is mute.

My point is not "mute". It's not even moot, for that matter -- there was a reason Bradley couldn't crack the rotation when he was unable to hit the broad side of the barn from anywhere or bring the ball up.

[cman88]

What peopel are forgetting is that the kid had two shoulder surgeries and there's no telling when he's coming back, or, more importantly, what he'll look like when he does.

His defense is not predicated on his shoulders. No reason to think that will be any different.

No, his ability to be a useful NBA player is.

Uhh, his ability to be a useful NBA player is based on his defense...which is based on his legs. Your point is mute.

My point is not "mute". It's not even moot, for that matter -- there was a reason Bradley couldn't crack the rotation when he was unable to hit the broad side of the barn from anywhere or bring the ball up.

he was a rookie at that point though...his real breakout started on the defensive end when he started in place of an injured Rondo and people were finally able to see his lock down defense.

Courtney Lee is a solid defender, and I would definitely start him against teams with bigger 2 guards...but I havent yet really seen if he has the ability to lock down quick 1-2 guards like Jrue holiday, westbrook, rose, teague..

and thats where Bradley's value is...Rondo likes to gamble ALOT defensively..you can stick Bradley on the opposing teams best guard and let Rondo play the passing lanes.

in the playoffs, once bradley was ruled out, we were getting shredded alot by guard penetration.