Folks are forgetting what its like when Avery Bradley is on the floor

[Celtics18]

Joe Johnson scored 17 PPG on 37% field goal shooting against us in last year's playoffs.  The guy wasn't exactly dominant.

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

Joe Johnson obviously isn't the typical shooting guard. He's much bigger.

If Bradley isn't completely dominant against every single shooting guard in the league, he's replaceable?

Even most historical great players struggled against certain specific matchups.

Barkley struggled mightily against McHale, if I recall correctly. So even legendary players can struggle against certain matchups.


One thing you didn't consider is Johnson having to guard Bradley at the other end.

You might have noticed that Bradley is as quick and agile as they come.

Bradley didn't have the green light from Doc to take his man off the dribble hardly at all. We saw glimpses of sick driving ability with a soft finishing touch, once he learned to be decisive and confident, and stopped getting blocked as much.

He's only what, 22? He's probably younger than Kris Joseph and Fab Melo. His ball handling can improve, and he's already average at worst. It was all a matter of confidence, for the most part.

I can't wait for Doc to give Bradley the green light more this year. Bradley could be a top 10 point guard in the near future if he ever got traded or Rondo got injured.

Scoring point guard like John Wall, with way better defense but playing behind Rondo.

You'll see very effective ball handling from Bradley this year, and I think he'll beat out Barbosa and Terry for back up PG too.

He's 20 or 21 I think.

[scaryjerry]

I still prefer Bradley over lee...but we have both..good problem to have and who knows if Avery does come back and perform like last season..he was really just emerging hope he gets back to it
The ones questioning his size and if he could stop wade consistently? Wade is. 6'3 and was consistently hounded and struggled against ab....Johnson posted him up in the playoff series? Johnson shot under 40 percent.

[nostar]

Also, trading Avery Bradley for Josh Smith, a border line all star, is pretty different from trading Al Jefferson for Kevin Garnett, one of the greatest players of all time.

It's not that different I don't think. Al Jefferson had a pretty underwhelming start with the C's and an injury riddled one. His second year he "broke out" after his move to center. Then we traded him for a top-10 player.

I'm not saying Smith is anywhere near Garnett. I'm also not saying that Bradley is as good as Al Jefferson was. A 6'10" center with post moves is move valuable in this league than a 6'2" shooting guard. There are exceptions but not very many.

I think moving Bradley (and probably Bass) for Smith would obviously be a less earth-shaking move but wouldn't be too much different. Remember we included a lot more than just Jefferson for Garnett. We would have to include picks for Smith too. I absolutely love Avery Bradley. I think he's a top 10 defender in the league, top 3 at shooting guard. I also think that Bradley as the center piece in a Josh Smith trade is a trade we have to make.

Unfortunately what Atlanta needs is a SF or a C. We aren't exactly gushing at either of those positions and I'm not willing to trade Jeff Green without getting a quality SF back in return. We just don't have the depth. MAYBE a Green for Smith swap and we sign Pietrus back but man I'd have to really consider that move. I'd be loathe to do it.

Maybe if Danny pulls a miracle and swings getting us Tayshaun Prince for Bass and Smith for Green I'd be floored. I'd also suspect some dealings with the devil. No judgments though!

Really I'm really happy with our team this year and unless we can add a top 20 center prospect or a franchise level talent I'd rather just keep our surprisingly skilled depth, and that includes Avery Bradley.

[ManUp]

Joe Johnson obviously isn't the typical shooting guard. He's much bigger.

If Bradley isn't completely dominant against every single shooting guard in the league, he's replaceable?

I never claimed Joe Johnson was a typical shooting guard. According to the numbers Bradley isn't even average against shooting guards in general. The way I see it If he can't defend shooting guards he shouldn't start next to Rondo.

One thing you didn't consider is Johnson having to guard Bradley at the other end.

You might have noticed that Bradley is as quick and agile as they come.

Bradley didn't have the green light from Doc to take his man off the dribble hardly at all. We saw glimpses of sick driving ability with a soft finishing touch, once he learned to be decisive and confident, and stopped getting blocked as much.

You saw "Sick" driving ability I saw sneaky opportunistic drives. In transition he'd attack defenses that couldn't keep up with him drawing a foul or beating them up the court for a lay-up. In the half court he'd beat guys trying to close out on his jumper. Nothing spectacular just smart basketball. He has potential offensively but I don't see any reason to expect him to be better than Lee, offensively.

He's only what, 22? He's probably younger than Kris Joseph and Fab Melo. His ball handling can improve, and he's already average at worst. It was all a matter of confidence, for the most part.

I can't wait for Doc to give Bradley the green light more this year. Bradley could be a top 10 point guard in the near future if he ever got traded or Rondo got injured.

Bradley's ball handling is below average for a point-guard. He looks uncomfortable and awkward bringing the ball up court. He struggles against pressure and has a pretty weak off hand. Right now he basically has no point guard skills or ability. Yes, he's young and has a lot of time to improve but the NBA is full of those type of players. As far as I'm concerned Avery Bradley just isn't a point-guard

Scoring point guard like John Wall, with way better defense but playing behind Rondo.

Sounds like a nice dream, but It makes no sense to have two great players on the same team playing the same position. The logical thing to do would be trade the lesser player of the two, to strengthen another position of weakness.

You'll see very effective ball handling from Bradley this year, and I think he'll beat out Barbosa and Terry for back up PG too.

Bradley's proven to be a quick learner and a hardworker, but IMO he's so obviously not a point-guard. Doc has even said as much himself. Bradley could end up as good as you think he is(probably not John Wall with crazy defense good), but he could also end as just an average starter or a very good backup. I think right now it's something like 50/50. I don't think it should be taken as a slight to him when fans want to trade him for a proven all-star caliber player.

[Celtics18]

I never claimed Joe Johnson was a typical shooting guard. According to the numbers Bradley isn't even average against shooting guards in general. The way I see it If he can't defend shooting guards he shouldn't start next to Rondo.

http://www.82games.com/1112/11BOS2.HTM#bypos

According to the By Position numbers at 82games, over all the Celtics defense was excellent when Avery Bradley played the shooting guard position.

When Bradley was playing at shooting guard, opposing teams had an average offensive rating of 85.5.  Based on those numbers, it seems to me that he can guard the shooting guard position more than adequately.  As good a defender as he is at the point, the team's defensive numbers were even better with Avery at the off guard.

[SHAQATTACK]

Lee /AB / ROndo combos are going to fast break city.  All three love to sneak around the basket stealing as much garbage from the bigs as they can.

Keeping a fresh AB or Lee in the game is gonna wear down the other teams main guards.

The C's whole game gets better when this kid gets back on the floor .

[arambone]

bradley got all defensive votes for half a season of extended minutes.

With a full season he would have been 1st or 2nd all defensive team. He'd have to be really bad offensively to equal an average starter. Average offense and all defensive team defense equals way above average. And bradley was above average offensively.

All stars are selected for their offensive stat stuffing ability, not their overall value. Hence rondo not getting voted in. Bradley played like an overall almost all star for half a season, even if fans never would have voted for him and the league would have pushed for a flashier player as coaches choice. As a 20 year old. Making 2 million dollars. Josh smith would have to be 8 times as good to be equal value, and then darko, lee, barbosa, bass would need to be cut to make room.

Bradley struggled as a 19 year old trying to be a pass first playmaking point guard. At 21, if asked to be a scoring point guard like wall, i think bradley would have similar or better overall impact. Bradley might not ever have walls ballhandling, but he plays way better defense, has better judgement, is smarter, and probably shoots better outside.

Great backup point guard, doc just needs to give him the green light to score freely instead of playmaking like rondo. Not bad for a well above average starting shooting guard.

[SHAQATTACK]

Wilcox and Bradley came in and lifted this team when the future looked very dark.  I was in a green depression , JO had sickened me to the core.

They will be back to help once again. 

[dtrader]

I never claimed Joe Johnson was a typical shooting guard. According to the numbers Bradley isn't even average against shooting guards in general. The way I see it If he can't defend shooting guards he shouldn't start next to Rondo.

http://www.82games.com/1112/11BOS2.HTM#bypos

According to the By Position numbers at 82games, over all the Celtics defense was excellent when Avery Bradley played the shooting guard position.

When Bradley was playing at shooting guard, opposing teams had an average offensive rating of 85.5.  Based on those numbers, it seems to me that he can guard the shooting guard position more than adequately.  As good a defender as he is at the point, the team's defensive numbers were even better with Avery at the off guard.

The link you added, is about Bradley playing shooting guard.  That doesn't say anything about his ability to actually guard shooting guards.  Bradley has repeatedly struggled against shooting guards.  When we play him at SG, he either struggles, takes risks to compensate for his inefficiency, or we play him against the opposing PG, and the rest of the team covers for him against the opposing SG (who should be his man).

He's still a great defender, but if the defensive awards were based on how well u guarded your own position, I doubt he'd even be in the running at SG...he may win at PG though.

[CelticG1]

I don't think people are forgetting. I think we we have a ton of strong depth at Averys position and I think he is our biggest trade chip out of those guys. I also think in his very short career he's had 3 injuries which required surgery and have kept in out for long periods of time. Also the fact that he didn't even play half a good season of basketball will lead people to believe maybe, if his value is high to other Gms it wouldn't be crazy to see what you can get.

It works both ways. If im selling him to a GM I talk about his all world defense if im trying to convince myself to try and upgrade the roster I say he has had several injuries and has only strung together 1/4 of a good season.

There's really a risk either way. There's as much evidence to project him as a bust as there is to project him as an all star.

The same doubt was being thrown Avery's way all over this board at the beginning of last season and he thoroughly proved everybody wrong.

"There's as much evidence to project him as a bust as there is to project him as an all star."- In what way shape or form is this true? He is a young talented player who came into his own as he was expected to since high school. There is no reason or evidence to expect Avery Bradley to bust but, based on his performance the majority of last season, a lot of evidence that he will continue to succeed.

I think you are hist extremely overly sensitive if anyone doesn't gush over Bradley.

I loved bradley last year and I had hopes for him and fulfilled those for 2 months.

What evidence do you have that he is going to be some sort of all star? Boy you mist have really been riding that Jeremy Lin train last year haha.

I don't see why people get insulted over the idea of trading Bradley. Nobody wants to cut him or doesn't think he's good. Its the exact opposite because he could def be a great trade chip. Id be more insulted by people that don't even think Bradley would be able to.fetch any big names or garner any interest.

Didn't we go through this with Al Jefferson already? At least at the time he was presumed to be budding into an all star (much more so than AB) and we were trading for a guy exiting his prime (although a once in a generation talent)

So if you think AB is better and more valuable than Josh Smith and you're willing to bet the world than I can't help you there. If you are only interested in trading bad or old players that no one wants than I can't hel you there either

Im sensitive to anyone not gushing over Bradley? You just came back with a defensive response, I was simply defending Bradley. I dont like when people wanna trade any of our players, cause they have a basketball boner for someone, before we even see what this team, as currently constructed, can do.
I dont really care about him being an all star, although I think that is a possability in the future given his physical ability and work ethic. I care about how much better out team is when he is on the floor, which the numbers show, is more than true.
Also, trading Avery Bradley for Josh Smith, a border line all star, is pretty different from trading Al Jefferson for Kevin Garnett, one of the greatest players of all time.

Basically bottom line is if this team is cruising without Bradley. If Lee thrives as a starter and at least producing close to what Bradley was producing (which I think is very possible playing on this team and beside Rondo) would you then explore the possibility of trading Bradley? Is Bradley just untouchable in your opinion?

I think people throw out a lot of trade ideas that could be possibilities and could improve our team. Guys like J Smith, Andrew Bogut and Anderson Varejao intrigue us fans.. I don't think a lot of us are saying "Make this trade now" but more exploring the realistic possibility that maybe one of our strongest trade chips at by far our deepest position could help get us someone with more need and talent.

I really don't see how someone can disagree with this

[celtics2]

I've been seeing a lot of threads recently with different trade ideas involving Avery (mostly targeting Josh Smith). Now theres a pattern in sports where a player will get injured, and because he is no longer on tv everday, people forget what they bring to the table. I can already see it happening with Derrick Rose if you follow sports sites such as Bleacher Report.

I just want to remind everybody that when Avery was in our starting lineup last year, we were without a doubt the best team in basketball, offensively and defensively. The offensive part is really important to note because before Avery we were towards the bottom of the league.

So next time you think about who you would trade if you were GM, just remember the type of player Avery is and how much he changes the dynamics of this team. I know I remember and I know he is gonna come back and make yall remember too.

I don't forget. It was the best the Celts played since the Big 3 started up. I don't know how one recovers his ability to perform to past levels after 2 shoulder surgeries. We have to get a good look at him before letting him loose.

[kozlodoev]

What peopel are forgetting is that the kid had two shoulder surgeries and there's no telling when he's coming back, or, more importantly, what he'll look like when he does.

His defense is not predicated on his shoulders. No reason to think that will be any different.

No, his ability to be a useful NBA player is.

[ManUp]

I never claimed Joe Johnson was a typical shooting guard. According to the numbers Bradley isn't even average against shooting guards in general. The way I see it If he can't defend shooting guards he shouldn't start next to Rondo.

http://www.82games.com/1112/11BOS2.HTM#bypos

According to the By Position numbers at 82games, over all the Celtics defense was excellent when Avery Bradley played the shooting guard position.

When Bradley was playing at shooting guard, opposing teams had an average offensive rating of 85.5.  Based on those numbers, it seems to me that he can guard the shooting guard position more than adequately.  As good a defender as he is at the point, the team's defensive numbers were even better with Avery at the off guard.

I'd guess that's a result of Rondo & Bradley > Bradley & Allen. And often times even when Bradley was playing the 2 offensively he'd defend point guards. I'm not trying to say Bradley sucks, I'm just trying to say don't retire his jersey just yet. It's way to early to put the untradeable label on him, especially when your talking an allstar in return.

[European NBA fan]

What peopel are forgetting is that the kid had two shoulder surgeries and there's no telling when he's coming back, or, more importantly, what he'll look like when he does.

His defense is not predicated on his shoulders. No reason to think that will be any different.

No, his ability to be a useful NBA player is.

All I have read about shoulder surgeries like Avery's indicate that a full recovery is the most likely result. I see no need to be pessimistic about that, at least not yet.

The only thing I'm worried about is whether Bradley showed his true potential in the final month of last season or it was just a single, crazy stretch. If he gets there again he will be a game changer on both ends.