Author Topic: Greatest Starting 5... ever?  (Read 14889 times)

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Re: Greatest Starting 5... ever?
« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2010, 05:39:21 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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I've even discussed Wilt with Laker fans over on SS & R (LakerBlog), and they even mention Kareem over Wilt in a few cases.

Wilt just never had what I like to call "It"...that intangible that put his teams over the top. But he was in fact maybe the most physically dominant center out there.

For me? I like to call Hakeem the most skilled center ever. But that doesn't mean he was the greatest. I quantify greatness with banners.

You use Roy's example of example of switching Bill and Wilt's personas? I have to agree with Roy here - if such a thing had happened, Wilt would've been known as simply the best, even to this day. Even over Michael, IMO.

I'm not that old or fortunate to have actually seen Wilt and Bill play against one another, and I don't even know if they are on youtube. But from what I've learned from hearsay, Wilt basically dominated Russell nearly every time they played, but not to the point that he could elevate LA.

Anyone correct me if I'm wrong here.

Bill held the fort down, though - just enough for Boston to win all those banners.

If Roy's example of switching happened, we wouldn't even be able to laugh at LA, because they in fact would've won like 20-25 Banners.

Re: Greatest Starting 5... ever?
« Reply #46 on: August 14, 2010, 05:44:45 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Found Some!

Volume is rather low, but good quality nonetheless!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UsLn9IjEhc

Re: Greatest Starting 5... ever?
« Reply #47 on: August 14, 2010, 06:09:16 PM »

Offline ram

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Wilt basically dominated Russell nearly every time they played,

------------------------
nothing could be farther from the truth.

Also, note that Russell only played 1 season with Wilt in LA-most of the rivalry was Philly-Boston


Re: Greatest Starting 5... ever?
« Reply #48 on: August 14, 2010, 06:24:41 PM »

Offline Celtics17

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Wilt just about doubled Russ's scoring and outrebounded him by an average of 5 a game in their head to head meetings. Hi teams were not obliterated by the C's either with Wilt's Philadelphia teams winning 40% of all the games they played against the Celtics.

 Look guys, I am not saying a negative word about Russel. I was always a very cerebral player in any sport I played too and often beat players who had more natural athletic ability. All I am saying is if you put Wilt on the Celtics title teams then it's possible that they win more titles then they did with Russ. Granted it's impossible to prove but it is possible.

Saying that Wilt didn't know how to win may be a valid argument, some players dont. The thing is though, there were enough quality players on the C's title teams that I think he would have found a way. People use to say that Jordan was nothing but a scorer until he won some titles. Did he win them because Magic and Larry got old or were already out of the league and the 90's was a weak period in the NBA? I dont know, that is one argument. Or did he win them because he was just darn good and knew how to win? The reality of it is we will never know for sure.

Each person though is entitled to his/her opinion here and mine is that I think if Wilt played center for the C's in the 60's they may have won more titles then they did and I do understand that if Russ hadnt hurt his ankle one year the Hawks would probably have lost.

Re: Greatest Starting 5... ever?
« Reply #49 on: August 14, 2010, 06:59:10 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Wilt just about doubled Russ's scoring and outrebounded him by an average of 5 a game in their head to head meetings. Hi teams were not obliterated by the C's either with Wilt's Philadelphia teams winning 40% of all the games they played against the Celtics.

 Look guys, I am not saying a negative word about Russel. I was always a very cerebral player in any sport I played too and often beat players who had more natural athletic ability. All I am saying is if you put Wilt on the Celtics title teams then it's possible that they win more titles then they did with Russ. Granted it's impossible to prove but it is possible.

Saying that Wilt didn't know how to win may be a valid argument, some players dont. The thing is though, there were enough quality players on the C's title teams that I think he would have found a way. People use to say that Jordan was nothing but a scorer until he won some titles. Did he win them because Magic and Larry got old or were already out of the league and the 90's was a weak period in the NBA? I dont know, that is one argument. Or did he win them because he was just darn good and knew how to win? The reality of it is we will never know for sure.

Each person though is entitled to his/her opinion here and mine is that I think if Wilt played center for the C's in the 60's they may have won more titles then they did and I do understand that if Russ hadnt hurt his ankle one year the Hawks would probably have lost.

  Wilt outscored Russell by 30-15 a game during the season, but 23-16 in the playoffs. Having his stats fade in the postseason doesn't help your case.

Re: Greatest Starting 5... ever?
« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2010, 07:13:41 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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By the way, I think a guy who has so many stars next to his name would be a little more tactful then to just come out and say 'you are wrong' in relation to another posters comments!

Sorry for upsetting you.  I wouldn't be arguing the contrary point if I thought you were right, but I guess I should have been more wishy-washy.

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Re: Greatest Starting 5... ever?
« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2010, 07:17:30 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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By the way, I think a guy who has so many stars next to his name would be a little more tactful then to just come out and say 'you are wrong' in relation to another posters comments!

Sorry for upsetting you.  I wouldn't be arguing the contrary point if I thought you were right, but I guess I should have been more wishy-washy.
To be fair, Roy did say the argument was wrong, not the poster.

That's pretty mild for an Internet forum.

Re: Greatest Starting 5... ever?
« Reply #52 on: August 14, 2010, 10:14:39 PM »

Offline Celtics17

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Roy, there is no need to apologize, you were plenty 'wishy-washy'!

Re: Greatest Starting 5... ever?
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2010, 10:49:10 PM »

Offline Moranis

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2 things:

1) If you are going to talk injury, Russell would have had 12/13 if he hadn't been hurt in 1958

2) Wilt is on record as saying Russell was better than him-that Russ just refused to win. Paraphrasing: "I wanted to win, Russell HAD to win."

Want more prrof of Russell's greatness-take a look at the team prior to Russell coming aboard and right after he left.

1956-.542, 39-33 despite 3 HOF players on the team and lost their only playoff series.

1970-.415, 36-46 despite 3 HOF players (JoJo was a rookie)


Bill is on record as saying Wilt was better then him as well.  It is called being humble.

Wilt did what his coaches and owners asked of him.  When they wanted him to take over games by scoring he did.  When they wanted him to man up and focus on defense he did.  When they wanted him to pass the ball he did.  The simple reality is the Philladelphia teams he was on were by and large lacking sufficient talent to win championships so his owner wanted Wilt to just go out and score and put butts in the seats.  It was also the only way Philly had any shot of winning a title.
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Re: Greatest Starting 5... ever?
« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2010, 10:54:16 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I would argue that if Wilt had played on the Celtics that we may have won more titles then 11/13. I know it's not a popular stance but I still take it anyway.

. . . and your argument would be wrong.

Wilt played alongside Jerry West and Elgin Baylor for four seasons, and played with West and Gail Goodrich in his other season with the Lakers.  He only won one title, when surrounded by West, Baylor, *and* Goodrich.  

I don't see how it's possible to extrapolate, then, that Wilt magically would have won 12+ titles in 13 years surrounded by similar -- or, if you listen to NBA historians, lesser -- players.

(The 76ers team he played on with Billy Cunningham and Hal Greer was pretty darn good, too, but again, they only managed one title).  
I thought you were better then this Roy. 

In the first season Wilt played 81 games, but Baylor was at 76 and West was at 61.  They lost game 7 to Boston, but Wilt was injured in the game and didn't play at all down the stretch in the 2 point Laker loss.  It also often takes a season for a team to come together and they were 3 points from winning a NBA title from an all time great team.

In year 2, Wilt played just 12 games.  Baylor played just 54 games and the West just 74.  Wilt was back for the playoffs, but coming off an injury and aged 33 he couldn't get them over the hump.  They again lost in the NBA finals in game 7, this time at New York.

In year 3, Baylor played a whopping 2 games.  West dropped down to 69.  Goodrich was at 79 and Wilt at 82.  Come playoff time West and Baylor weren't on the team and Wilt and Goodrich weren't enough to get by the Bucks in the conference finals.

Year 4 (71-72), Baylor was gone.  Wilt, Goodrich, and West all played at least 77 games and the Lakers marched through the playoffs easily winning the title.  Wilt was now 35 and way past his prime and time was catching up to a 33 year old West.

The following season all three were essentially healthy all year and they won 60 games, but the age was too much in the finals and they lost to the younger and more balanced Knicks. 

Again, it's all well and good to blame injuries or whatever, but what evidence is there that Wilt would have won 12+ championships in 13 seasons?  He won 2 championships in 14 seasons, despite being surrounded by some of the best talent the NBA had at the time.

Also, of course, if the excuse is "Team X didn't win because Wilt was injured . . .", I'm not sure how that supports the claim that he would have won more if he had better teammates.

Wilt was a man among boys, athletically.  I tend to agree with others, though, that when it came to desire and instincts, he was lacking.  Put Wilt Chamberlain's brain in Bill Russell's body, and you have a guy who would have been an average, at best, NBA player.  Put Bill Russell's brain in Wilt Chamberlain's body, and nobody would even mention MJ as the best ever.
There is none, but here is none the other way either.  And you know you completely misrepresented Wilt's time in L.A. because it fit your argument.   What a guy does when he is past his prime, injured, and with injured teammates, has almost no relevance as to what that same guy would have done healthy and in his prime with healthy talented teammates.  And you know very well that is exactly what you did.  Skewed facts to fit your argument rather then looking at it objectively.
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Re: Greatest Starting 5... ever?
« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2010, 10:55:24 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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The simple reality is the Philladelphia teams he was on were by and large lacking sufficient talent to win championships so his owner wanted Wilt to just go out and score and put butts in the seats.  It was also the only way Philly had any shot of winning a title.

Arguably, that was the case with the Philadelphia Warriors teams he was on (although Paul Arizin was no slouch).  However, you're not arguing that the Sixers teams he was on weren't good enough to win a title, are you?  As mentioned earlier, those were some dang good teams, filled with Hall of Fame teammates.

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Re: Greatest Starting 5... ever?
« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2010, 11:00:31 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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I would argue that if Wilt had played on the Celtics that we may have won more titles then 11/13. I know it's not a popular stance but I still take it anyway.

. . . and your argument would be wrong.

Wilt played alongside Jerry West and Elgin Baylor for four seasons, and played with West and Gail Goodrich in his other season with the Lakers.  He only won one title, when surrounded by West, Baylor, *and* Goodrich.  

I don't see how it's possible to extrapolate, then, that Wilt magically would have won 12+ titles in 13 years surrounded by similar -- or, if you listen to NBA historians, lesser -- players.

(The 76ers team he played on with Billy Cunningham and Hal Greer was pretty darn good, too, but again, they only managed one title).  
I thought you were better then this Roy. 

In the first season Wilt played 81 games, but Baylor was at 76 and West was at 61.  They lost game 7 to Boston, but Wilt was injured in the game and didn't play at all down the stretch in the 2 point Laker loss.  It also often takes a season for a team to come together and they were 3 points from winning a NBA title from an all time great team.

In year 2, Wilt played just 12 games.  Baylor played just 54 games and the West just 74.  Wilt was back for the playoffs, but coming off an injury and aged 33 he couldn't get them over the hump.  They again lost in the NBA finals in game 7, this time at New York.

In year 3, Baylor played a whopping 2 games.  West dropped down to 69.  Goodrich was at 79 and Wilt at 82.  Come playoff time West and Baylor weren't on the team and Wilt and Goodrich weren't enough to get by the Bucks in the conference finals.

Year 4 (71-72), Baylor was gone.  Wilt, Goodrich, and West all played at least 77 games and the Lakers marched through the playoffs easily winning the title.  Wilt was now 35 and way past his prime and time was catching up to a 33 year old West.

The following season all three were essentially healthy all year and they won 60 games, but the age was too much in the finals and they lost to the younger and more balanced Knicks. 

Again, it's all well and good to blame injuries or whatever, but what evidence is there that Wilt would have won 12+ championships in 13 seasons?  He won 2 championships in 14 seasons, despite being surrounded by some of the best talent the NBA had at the time.

Also, of course, if the excuse is "Team X didn't win because Wilt was injured . . .", I'm not sure how that supports the claim that he would have won more if he had better teammates.

Wilt was a man among boys, athletically.  I tend to agree with others, though, that when it came to desire and instincts, he was lacking.  Put Wilt Chamberlain's brain in Bill Russell's body, and you have a guy who would have been an average, at best, NBA player.  Put Bill Russell's brain in Wilt Chamberlain's body, and nobody would even mention MJ as the best ever.
There is none, but here is none the other way either.  And you know you completely misrepresented Wilt's time in L.A. because it fit your argument.   What a guy does when he is past his prime, injured, and with injured teammates, has almost no relevance as to what that same guy would have done healthy and in his prime with healthy talented teammates.  And you know very well that is exactly what you did.  Skewed facts to fit your argument rather then looking at it objectively.

The fact is, Wilt played with fellow Hall of Famers almost his entire career, and walked away with two titles.  Some of those teammates were the first-tier, upper echelon type of Hall of Famers.  I don't think it's likely, then, that Wilt would have added another 10+ titles to his resume' if he'd been in Boston.  He was a guy who always cared more about stats than he did about titles.  In baseball terms, Wilt was A-rod; talented enough to win a bit, but never as much as he should have.

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Re: Greatest Starting 5... ever?
« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2010, 11:20:17 PM »

Offline ahartz15

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Pretty easy if you ask me...

Magic/MJ/Bird/Duncan/Russell

Re: Greatest Starting 5... ever?
« Reply #58 on: August 14, 2010, 11:37:23 PM »

Offline ThaPreacher

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Magic, Jordan, Bird, Duncan, Russell

First guys off the bench would be Kevin McHale and Oscar Robertson.

Props to Pippen for naming three Celts to his all-time team.





Pistol Pete, Michael Jordan, Dr. J, Kevin Garnett, Bill Russell

We are going to run, run, and then run.  Bird and Duncan will be only be crossing half court when we score.

Havlicek and Baylor come off the bench.

Kobe might play small forward instead of Erving.  But I like the Maravich to Jordan or Dr. J on the break!
« Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 12:45:26 PM by ThaPreacher »
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Re: Greatest Starting 5... ever?
« Reply #59 on: August 14, 2010, 11:40:11 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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Magic, Jordan, Bird, Duncan, Russell

First guys off the bench would be Kevin McHale and Oscar Robertson.

Props to Pippen for naming three Celts to his all-time team.





Pistol Pete, Michael Jordan, Dr. J, Kevin Garnett, Bill Russell

We are going to run, run, and then run.  Bird will be Duncan will only be crossing half court when we score.

Havlicek and Baylor come off the bench.

Kobe might play small forward instead of Erving.  But I like the Maravich to Jordan or Dr. J on the break!

Why Maravich?  If you're running a fast break offense, I think you could do better with a point guard.

(He was a heck of a scorer, though.)

All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

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