Author Topic: Greatest Starting 5... ever?  (Read 14889 times)

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Re: Greatest Starting 5... ever?
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2010, 01:18:46 PM »

Offline Celtics17

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My starting 5 includes Bird, Jordan, Magic, Chamberlain and Russel. I realize of course that I have two centers there but I am moving Russel to power forward. With Chamberlain and Jordan and Bird we dont need any scoring from Russel and I know that he could guard any power forward who ever played and shut him down.

As far as the debate about Wilt not being a team player you have to examine the 'teams' he played on. They just werent of the same caliber as Russels groups. For instance, how many Hall of Fame players did Wilt play with early in his career? How many did Russel play with. I would argue that if Wilt had played on the Celtics that we may have won more titles then 11/13. I know it's not a popular stance but I still take it anyway.

The real debate on the best all time team comes when you look at the second unit.

Re: Greatest Starting 5... ever?
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2010, 01:23:14 PM »

Offline housecall

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Best starting 5 is tough, partly because the team would need balance to be good, i.e. offense/defense, inside/outside, and balanced scoring among the players.

'86 C's and the 72-win Bulls proved to be the best of their time, even if each player wouldn't make a best-5 on their own merits (e.g. Danny Ainge, any Bull not name Jordan or Pippen).

I gotta say, if they choose to play the regular season like it means something, Rondo, Ray, Pierce, KG, and J.O'Neal have the potential to come together like those squads did, and I think may have similar postseason success.
TP...thats why after rethinking my 5 i changed to KG as my pf because he makes my 5 more of a balance team.

Re: Greatest Starting 5... ever?
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2010, 01:26:09 PM »

Offline Celtics17

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Jon, it's kind of funny that you and I were basically saying the same starting 5 at the same time and I definitely agree with you. A combination of Wilt at center and Russ at power forward or for that matter the two switched would be devastating. Teams would not get off a shot within 15 feet of the basket and would not get rebounds easily at all.

Sorry but I am amazed at how so many people write off the most dominating player the game has ever seen in Wilt. The man so thoroughly dominated the game that people still dont like him I guess. In Boston I am sure he has never been a popular guy but I dont think you can find a better all around athlete to ever play the game and it just happens to be in the frame of a 300 pound monster of a man. As Wilt once wrote, "nobody ever roots for Goliath".

Re: Greatest Starting 5... ever?
« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2010, 01:31:21 PM »

Offline Jon

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Jon, it's kind of funny that you and I were basically saying the same starting 5 at the same time and I definitely agree with you. A combination of Wilt at center and Russ at power forward or for that matter the two switched would be devastating. Teams would not get off a shot within 15 feet of the basket and would not get rebounds easily at all.

Sorry but I am amazed at how so many people write off the most dominating player the game has ever seen in Wilt. The man so thoroughly dominated the game that people still dont like him I guess. In Boston I am sure he has never been a popular guy but I dont think you can find a better all around athlete to ever play the game and it just happens to be in the frame of a 300 pound monster of a man. As Wilt once wrote, "nobody ever roots for Goliath".

Being that the guy AVERAGED over 50 ppg in one season pretty much says all that needs to be said. 

Absurd, just absurd. 

Re: Greatest Starting 5... ever?
« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2010, 02:10:15 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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I would argue that if Wilt had played on the Celtics that we may have won more titles then 11/13. I know it's not a popular stance but I still take it anyway.

. . . and your argument would be wrong.

Wilt played alongside Jerry West and Elgin Baylor for four seasons, and played with West and Gail Goodrich in his other season with the Lakers.  He only won one title, when surrounded by West, Baylor, *and* Goodrich.  

I don't see how it's possible to extrapolate, then, that Wilt magically would have won 12+ titles in 13 years surrounded by similar -- or, if you listen to NBA historians, lesser -- players.

(The 76ers team he played on with Billy Cunningham and Hal Greer was pretty darn good, too, but again, they only managed one title).  
« Last Edit: August 14, 2010, 02:18:35 PM by Roy Hobbs »

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Re: Greatest Starting 5... ever?
« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2010, 02:53:45 PM »

Offline ram

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Roy-you left off Chet "The Jet" Walker, too, a perrenial All-Star.
In fact, HOFer Cunningham was the 6th man on that Sixers team and, man for man, from 1965-1968, they were superior to an aging Celtics team. Another former All-Star, Luke Jackson played PF.

In fact, the 1967 Sixers team was picked as the all time greatest team when the NBA had their 35th anniversary season celebration in 1981. I thought it was absurd to pick a team that could not be the Celts in either '66 or '68.

Re: Greatest Starting 5... ever?
« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2010, 02:58:34 PM »

Offline kofanis0880

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Jon, it's kind of funny that you and I were basically saying the same starting 5 at the same time and I definitely agree with you. A combination of Wilt at center and Russ at power forward or for that matter the two switched would be devastating. Teams would not get off a shot within 15 feet of the basket and would not get rebounds easily at all.

Sorry but I am amazed at how so many people write off the most dominating player the game has ever seen in Wilt. The man so thoroughly dominated the game that people still dont like him I guess. In Boston I am sure he has never been a popular guy but I dont think you can find a better all around athlete to ever play the game and it just happens to be in the frame of a 300 pound monster of a man. As Wilt once wrote, "nobody ever roots for Goliath".

Being that the guy AVERAGED over 50 ppg in one season pretty much says all that needs to be said. 

Absurd, just absurd. 

A lot of Chamberlain's stat were account of him being a ball-hog. It is well documented that a number of his teammates didn't like him that much. Also he is 100 point game was somewhat of a farce as well as some of his other unbelievable records and achievements.
Don't get wrong he was a hell of a player, but also vastly overrated (if you look purely at stats) and not really a team player. Once he matured his avg dropped from 33.5 to 24.1 and he started winning championships.

Re: Greatest Starting 5... ever?
« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2010, 02:59:31 PM »

Offline housecall

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My observation from watching Wilt when i was young is like most kids we love to see a player score a lot of points.Defense,what is defense when you see a player score in the 30's 40's50's every night.Once you get a little older and realizes a winning team is built on a balanced attack with a emphasis on defense.Wilt's teams were never defensive minded,even with the superstars he had.The one season he won was when West figured it out,defense win championships.Prior to their championship season West&Goodrich were ball hogs that shot a lot.It wasn't so much that Wilt was a lousy passer most of his career as it was he didn't committ to becoming a well rounded player.
   Body language only,i never got the impression winning championships meant as much to Wilt as it did to Russell,just my opinion.On the otherhand,West appeared more driven to win a championship.When he spoke to the media which wasn't as much as these guys today,he always sounded focused on trying to win the big one. IMO
« Last Edit: August 14, 2010, 03:17:08 PM by housecall »

Re: Greatest Starting 5... ever?
« Reply #38 on: August 14, 2010, 02:59:36 PM »

Offline Moranis

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C - Wilt
PF - Hakeem
SF - Rodman
SG - Jordan
PG - Magic


I realize I have some guys out of position and I'm sure the Rodman selection at SF will get some flack, but Rodman is the perfect starter on this sort of team.  All he cares about is rebounding and defending and that is what you need on a team like this.  Hakeem, while a center, can guard pretty much any PF so I don't lose anything defensively there and Wilt and Hakeem would be unguardable.  
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Re: Greatest Starting 5... ever?
« Reply #39 on: August 14, 2010, 03:15:39 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I would argue that if Wilt had played on the Celtics that we may have won more titles then 11/13. I know it's not a popular stance but I still take it anyway.

. . . and your argument would be wrong.

Wilt played alongside Jerry West and Elgin Baylor for four seasons, and played with West and Gail Goodrich in his other season with the Lakers.  He only won one title, when surrounded by West, Baylor, *and* Goodrich.  

I don't see how it's possible to extrapolate, then, that Wilt magically would have won 12+ titles in 13 years surrounded by similar -- or, if you listen to NBA historians, lesser -- players.

(The 76ers team he played on with Billy Cunningham and Hal Greer was pretty darn good, too, but again, they only managed one title).  
I thought you were better then this Roy. 

In the first season Wilt played 81 games, but Baylor was at 76 and West was at 61.  They lost game 7 to Boston, but Wilt was injured in the game and didn't play at all down the stretch in the 2 point Laker loss.  It also often takes a season for a team to come together and they were 3 points from winning a NBA title from an all time great team.

In year 2, Wilt played just 12 games.  Baylor played just 54 games and the West just 74.  Wilt was back for the playoffs, but coming off an injury and aged 33 he couldn't get them over the hump.  They again lost in the NBA finals in game 7, this time at New York.

In year 3, Baylor played a whopping 2 games.  West dropped down to 69.  Goodrich was at 79 and Wilt at 82.  Come playoff time West and Baylor weren't on the team and Wilt and Goodrich weren't enough to get by the Bucks in the conference finals.

Year 4 (71-72), Baylor was gone.  Wilt, Goodrich, and West all played at least 77 games and the Lakers marched through the playoffs easily winning the title.  Wilt was now 35 and way past his prime and time was catching up to a 33 year old West.

The following season all three were essentially healthy all year and they won 60 games, but the age was too much in the finals and they lost to the younger and more balanced Knicks. 
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Re: Greatest Starting 5... ever?
« Reply #40 on: August 14, 2010, 03:28:08 PM »

Offline kofanis0880

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PG Rondo - I wanted to put Oscar/Magic here put Rondo is a shut down defender and pass first PG even though everyone on this team can create for themselves Rondo would make it that much easier.
SG Jordan/Kobe - Obvious and interchangeable on this team Kobe has better range but Michael is just Michael
SF LeBron - I know Im going to get a lot of heat for this but he does belong only one with 0 championships, but we all know they will come. His numbers after 7 years match-up favorably to everyone except for maybe MJ. Regardless of if you think he is a punk or not he is a dominant force at the forward position.
PF Russell - He was only 6'9, this day and age he would be the ultimate
C Olajuwon - Center in a skilled PFs body, size defense and IQ to stop and dominate anyone from Shaq to Duncan and anyone in between.

6th man: Reggie Miller/Ray Allen

Re: Greatest Starting 5... ever?
« Reply #41 on: August 14, 2010, 03:36:55 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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I would argue that if Wilt had played on the Celtics that we may have won more titles then 11/13. I know it's not a popular stance but I still take it anyway.

. . . and your argument would be wrong.

Wilt played alongside Jerry West and Elgin Baylor for four seasons, and played with West and Gail Goodrich in his other season with the Lakers.  He only won one title, when surrounded by West, Baylor, *and* Goodrich.  

I don't see how it's possible to extrapolate, then, that Wilt magically would have won 12+ titles in 13 years surrounded by similar -- or, if you listen to NBA historians, lesser -- players.

(The 76ers team he played on with Billy Cunningham and Hal Greer was pretty darn good, too, but again, they only managed one title).  
I thought you were better then this Roy. 

In the first season Wilt played 81 games, but Baylor was at 76 and West was at 61.  They lost game 7 to Boston, but Wilt was injured in the game and didn't play at all down the stretch in the 2 point Laker loss.  It also often takes a season for a team to come together and they were 3 points from winning a NBA title from an all time great team.

In year 2, Wilt played just 12 games.  Baylor played just 54 games and the West just 74.  Wilt was back for the playoffs, but coming off an injury and aged 33 he couldn't get them over the hump.  They again lost in the NBA finals in game 7, this time at New York.

In year 3, Baylor played a whopping 2 games.  West dropped down to 69.  Goodrich was at 79 and Wilt at 82.  Come playoff time West and Baylor weren't on the team and Wilt and Goodrich weren't enough to get by the Bucks in the conference finals.

Year 4 (71-72), Baylor was gone.  Wilt, Goodrich, and West all played at least 77 games and the Lakers marched through the playoffs easily winning the title.  Wilt was now 35 and way past his prime and time was catching up to a 33 year old West.

The following season all three were essentially healthy all year and they won 60 games, but the age was too much in the finals and they lost to the younger and more balanced Knicks. 

Again, it's all well and good to blame injuries or whatever, but what evidence is there that Wilt would have won 12+ championships in 13 seasons?  He won 2 championships in 14 seasons, despite being surrounded by some of the best talent the NBA had at the time.

Also, of course, if the excuse is "Team X didn't win because Wilt was injured . . .", I'm not sure how that supports the claim that he would have won more if he had better teammates.

Wilt was a man among boys, athletically.  I tend to agree with others, though, that when it came to desire and instincts, he was lacking.  Put Wilt Chamberlain's brain in Bill Russell's body, and you have a guy who would have been an average, at best, NBA player.  Put Bill Russell's brain in Wilt Chamberlain's body, and nobody would even mention MJ as the best ever.

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Re: Greatest Starting 5... ever?
« Reply #42 on: August 14, 2010, 04:10:56 PM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

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Dumars, Jordan, Bird, KG, Shaq



three off the bench would be DJ, Pippen, Olajuwon.

just when it seemed everyone was picking Magic-Jordan-Bird, you come out with a Dumars-MJ-Bird troika. wow! haha. i don't say i agree but hey, to each his own :P



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I figured if MJ is gonna have the ball the whole time... you might as well have somebody who can hit the open three AND shut down the other teams PG.

I’m not just saying “he’s the best PG, he’s the best SG...” I’m actually trying to think about if they were actually all out there.

  Without coming up with a lineup (yet), I'd have gone the other way, maybe Oscar or Jerry West instead of MJ.

  A more interesting exercise might be a lineup of "greats" that would struggle to get to the conference finals. Something like Iverson/Jordan/Nique/Moses/Amare.

lol. I'd go with... Iverson and Vince Carter at the guard spots, T-Mac at the small forward. I can't think of any bad "great" big men right now though.



- LilRip

  I wasn't going for bad superstars, just stars that could never co-exist. Put Jordan, Nique and AI on the same team and they literally might try and steal the ball from each other.

Kevin McHale would drive those guys crazy, he NEVER passes out of the post. Iverson, Carter, McGrady, McHale, _________

Re: Greatest Starting 5... ever?
« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2010, 04:11:33 PM »

Offline Celtics17

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Well, if you want to switch bodies and brains why dont you just argue how many championships Russel would have won if he had been on the teams that Chamberlain was on and vice versa? I think that would  be a lot more relevant. By the way, I think a guy who has so many stars next to his name would be a little more tactful then to just come out and say 'you are wrong' in relation to another posters comments! How do you know that I am wrong? You can never, ever prove it so you are putting your back against the wall in even making such a definitive statement. At least I said I would argue the point.

Re: Greatest Starting 5... ever?
« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2010, 05:37:50 PM »

Offline ram

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2 things:

1) If you are going to talk injury, Russell would have had 12/13 if he hadn't been hurt in 1958

2) Wilt is on record as saying Russell was better than him-that Russ just refused to win. Paraphrasing: "I wanted to win, Russell HAD to win."

Want more prrof of Russell's greatness-take a look at the team prior to Russell coming aboard and right after he left.

1956-.542, 39-33 despite 3 HOF players on the team and lost their only playoff series.

1970-.415, 36-46 despite 3 HOF players (JoJo was a rookie)