Author Topic: Playoff Games 4/25/08  (Read 17788 times)

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Re: Playoff Games 4/25/08
« Reply #60 on: April 26, 2008, 01:12:06 AM »

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Phoenix has some tough decisions to make this offseason because they are screwed. Shaq's contract is going to kill them for the next two years, and he's showing no passion for the game.  He's indifferent out there, truely a disgrace. Boris Diaw has quite a bad contract himself, but he's movable.

Next year is really their last chance to accomplish anything, but what I'm seeing from Shaq makes me believe that they won't be much of a factor.  They have to start thinking soon of moving Nash and try to get something for him.


I'd stand still for next season. Training camp will make a huge difference to this crew. It's impossible to change from Marion and their style of play to Shaq. They have no identity, they'll be able to create one during camp and throughout the regular season. There just wasn't enough time for this season.

For one, I'd like to see them use Shaq more in the low post, they've gone away from that as the series has gone on.

They need another wing or/and a backup point to let Barbosa concentrate on scoring. I'd consider moving one or some of the supporting cast but not their main guys (without there being some type of special offer).


They need to find a way to play defense.  They are no longer the fast breaking team.
They're absolutely a fast breaking team and they will be next year. They need to continue running.

They have one of the best fast break point guards in the game. One of the best fast break power forwards in the game. A great open court player in Grant Hill who is simply the best on that team at leaking out on the break. Then they have Raja who's solid on the break. That's a fast breaking team.

Then you go to the bench with Diaw and Barbosa. They should absolutely continue running.


But they don't run. 
They did run. They stopped running.

Inconsistency under pressure. This is where the value of training camp and a full season together come to fruition. Their execution in the playoffs has fallen off with each half of basketall. They're unsure of what to do out there. They're not a team, they're just a group of individuals.

I don't have the stats on hand but after the Shaquille O Neal trade they took a smaller percentage of their shots early in the clock but their shooting percentage was much higher. They were running a more efficient fast break than before and scoring a similer number of fastbreak points on less opportunities. What changed was the first 7-10 seconds of the shot clock, those points were harder to come by and their half court offense slowed down and it wasn't as good because of that. Their running game wasn't the problem, their half court game was the problem and it still is the problem.

Execution has killed the Suns. They stopped running, that's the problem. They stopped using Shaq in the low post, that's the problem. Execution killed them.

Grant Hill's injury hurt too. Only game San Antonio won in the regular season was when Grant didn't start. He's the only guy capable of creating in the halfcourt ouside of Nash and their best fastbreak finisher. He's clearly been a shadow of himself on the court this series. Putting your hopes on his health is a scary proposition. No backups on the wings only made his loss worse.

Re: Playoff Games 4/25/08
« Reply #61 on: April 26, 2008, 01:18:35 AM »

Offline CoachCowens

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It was totally unnecessary for Shaq to push into him like that. Just because Duncan can absorb the blow doesn't make it any less flagrant. If that isn't flagrant then I guess Dampier's push on CP3 wasn't either.   

Re: Playoff Games 4/25/08
« Reply #62 on: April 26, 2008, 01:23:55 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Phoenix has some tough decisions to make this offseason because they are screwed. Shaq's contract is going to kill them for the next two years, and he's showing no passion for the game.  He's indifferent out there, truely a disgrace. Boris Diaw has quite a bad contract himself, but he's movable.

Next year is really their last chance to accomplish anything, but what I'm seeing from Shaq makes me believe that they won't be much of a factor.  They have to start thinking soon of moving Nash and try to get something for him.
I'd stand still for next season. Training camp will make a huge difference to this crew. It's impossible to change from Marion and their style of play to Shaq. They have no identity, they'll be able to create one during camp and throughout the regular season. There just wasn't enough time for this season.

For one, I'd like to see them use Shaq more in the low post, they've gone away from that as the series has gone on.

They need another wing or/and a backup point to let Barbosa concentrate on scoring. I'd consider moving one or some of the supporting cast but not their main guys (without there being some type of special offer).

The problem is that they have about 70 million tied up in 6 players.  One of them being Shaq that has shown a great degree of deterioration, and as I said... he looks indifferent out there; I don't see much hope of that situation improving.

They don't have the means to start adding players as they've been allergic to the luxury tax. We'll see how many veterans are willing to go there with a paycut when more promising teams out there will be also looking to fillup roster spots (Celtics for one). And they only have about 7 players under contract next year.  That's a ton of begging to fillup the roster.
Their cap situation doesn't bother me. They have the top tier talent to get the job done, they only need filler. Filler can be acquired cheaply.

I think the Suns have a very good situation on their hands, albeit very short term.

Well, it does bother me because I don't see Shaq producing and he doesn't seem tradable to me.  Maybe you do see him producing and that's why I see things differently. Grant Hill staying is not a given, he has a player option.  Their defense isn't going to improve, and I don't see them playing the fastbreak game as well as they used to.  Not nearly as good.

But I guess we can continue this debate during the offseason or during the early portion of next season.  I really don't see it, with the Spurs continuing to dominate them, the Hornets improving as they have, the Lakers improving as they have... I'd be surprised if they can outrun Denver next year or Golden State for that matter.

It was totally unnecessary for Shaq to push into him like that. Just because Duncan can absorb the blow doesn't make it any less flagrant. If that isn't flagrant then I guess Dampier's push on CP3 wasn't either.  

I thought Dampier's wasn't.  I think he wanted to give him a push foul, but I didn't see him pushing that hard.  I saw his feet though, and it looked like Dampier tangled them up and almost fell, giving CP3 a bigger push than intended.  I might be wrong and need to see the replay again, but that's the impression I got.

Re: Playoff Games 4/25/08
« Reply #63 on: April 26, 2008, 01:35:52 AM »

Offline Bahku

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It was totally unnecessary for Shaq to push into him like that. Just because Duncan can absorb the blow doesn't make it any less flagrant. If that isn't flagrant then I guess Dampier's push on CP3 wasn't either.   

I've seen the same foul probably three or four times, on average, in every game I've ever watched, and very few were called flagrant. The defending player is attempting to get in position to take a charge, knows they're going to be late, and just throws their hip toward the oncoming player. It's done with picks, too, all the time, and never called flagrant. Sorry, but this was an over-reaction at a time, (the playoffs), when there should be more latitude given for fouls, not less.
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Re: Playoff Games 4/25/08
« Reply #64 on: April 26, 2008, 01:43:31 AM »

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Well, it does bother me because I don't see Shaq producing and he doesn't seem tradable to me.  Maybe you do see him producing and that's why I see things differently. Grant Hill staying is not a given, he has a player option.  Their defense isn't going to improve, and I don't see them playing the fastbreak game as well as they used to.  Not nearly as good.
Yep, we disagree on all those points. I do think Shaq will be productive next season and I think he has been this season. I do think it's a given Grant sticks around. I do think their defense will improve but still be very vulnerable to screen and rolls. I do think they still have a very good fast break team.

.............

Shaq only has two years left on his deal. One more year to try and contend with Nashy. If it's a complete failure he'll have a huge expiring contract and they'll be able to rebuild. If it works well they'll have a ring or at least a good shot at it. If it works and everybody is healthy enough to go on they get another years run out of this group. Then they rebuild around Amare. Shaq's and Nash's future are inter-twined, most likely if one goes the other one goes out the door in the same motion. There's no future there for either guy. They're near the end of the line. It's now. 1 year is enough if it's all you're going to get and this was the best team they could get with Nash there, they get two years then great.

.........

I also think Shaq is better defensively than Yao Ming. So if Shaq can't win because of his defensive flaws then no Yao Ming team can ever win because they both have the exact same defensive flaws.

They can make it work. There'll be matchups they'll be vulnerable to (Utah) but they'll have a really good shot.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2008, 09:11:00 AM by Who »

Re: Playoff Games 4/25/08
« Reply #65 on: April 26, 2008, 03:05:23 AM »

Offline CoachCowens

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It was totally unnecessary for Shaq to push into him like that. Just because Duncan can absorb the blow doesn't make it any less flagrant. If that isn't flagrant then I guess Dampier's push on CP3 wasn't either.   

I've seen the same foul probably three or four times, on average, in every game I've ever watched, and very few were called flagrant. The defending player is attempting to get in position to take a charge, knows they're going to be late, and just throws their hip toward the oncoming player. It's done with picks, too, all the time, and never called flagrant. Sorry, but this was an over-reaction at a time, (the playoffs), when there should be more latitude given for fouls, not less.

It wasn't a hip it was a forearm. If he did it to someone of Parker or Nash's size the guy would have been laid out. A pick is different in that the player is not leaving the floor.  The game was pretty much out of reach and was just a cheap shot out of frustration. It wasn't an ejection worthy shot just flagrant. I seem to remember Horry getting a game suspension for a hip to Nash last year.

Re: Playoff Games 4/25/08
« Reply #66 on: April 26, 2008, 03:30:55 AM »

Offline blueygreen

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It was totally unnecessary for Shaq to push into him like that. Just because Duncan can absorb the blow doesn't make it any less flagrant. If that isn't flagrant then I guess Dampier's push on CP3 wasn't either.   

I've seen the same foul probably three or four times, on average, in every game I've ever watched, and very few were called flagrant. The defending player is attempting to get in position to take a charge, knows they're going to be late, and just throws their hip toward the oncoming player. It's done with picks, too, all the time, and never called flagrant. Sorry, but this was an over-reaction at a time, (the playoffs), when there should be more latitude given for fouls, not less.

It wasn't a hip it was a forearm. If he did it to someone of Parker or Nash's size the guy would have been laid out. A pick is different in that the player is not leaving the floor.  The game was pretty much out of reach and was just a cheap shot out of frustration. It wasn't an ejection worthy shot just flagrant. I seem to remember Horry getting a game suspension for a hip to Nash last year.

I see players do it all the time, it's just like the younger leagues where a teammate of mine would try and draw charges but lean in a little to absorb the contact better (in anticipation), the other problem was that he was incredibly strong for his age and most people fell over when running into him (he was a short guy too). But this is just overreaction to a guy the size of shaq. Seeing him do it, there was nothing aggressive there. It didn't help that Tim Duncan laid done for as long as possible to draw maximum ref sympathy. And uhh, it's not like TD can be called innocent of any protruding hips :P

Re: Playoff Games 4/25/08
« Reply #67 on: April 26, 2008, 04:37:14 AM »

Offline Bahku

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It was totally unnecessary for Shaq to push into him like that. Just because Duncan can absorb the blow doesn't make it any less flagrant. If that isn't flagrant then I guess Dampier's push on CP3 wasn't either.   

I've seen the same foul probably three or four times, on average, in every game I've ever watched, and very few were called flagrant. The defending player is attempting to get in position to take a charge, knows they're going to be late, and just throws their hip toward the oncoming player. It's done with picks, too, all the time, and never called flagrant. Sorry, but this was an over-reaction at a time, (the playoffs), when there should be more latitude given for fouls, not less.

It wasn't a hip it was a forearm. If he did it to someone of Parker or Nash's size the guy would have been laid out. A pick is different in that the player is not leaving the floor.  The game was pretty much out of reach and was just a cheap shot out of frustration. It wasn't an ejection worthy shot just flagrant. I seem to remember Horry getting a game suspension for a hip to Nash last year.

Watching the replay ... he stuck his hip out, forearm was close to the body.
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Re: Playoff Games 4/25/08
« Reply #68 on: April 26, 2008, 03:59:16 PM »

Offline TheReaLPuba

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Suns problem is their offense is terrible...and they let it bother their defense.

They miss open 3's, open 15-20 footers, layups, jump hooks. The Suns are a pretty good offensive team but they haven't shown it.

Their defense is never great but they are playing the Spurs....Spurs are just taking it to another level right now.

The Suns don't know if they even have another level yet....still searching for their regular season level IMO.