Author Topic: It's time to have some perspective  (Read 5425 times)

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Re: It's time to have some perspective
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2019, 11:05:53 PM »

Offline ozgod

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Danny signed three allstars, none of whom is going to bring us a title. We need to upgrade our talent. Will Davis be enough? Probably not, but we can hope that we can find someone else to join him.

Davis + Kyrie + Hayward + Brown + Horford should be plenty.

Too small and too weak.

Kyrie and Hayward can't defend.

But I hope they prove me wrong.

Too small? 

6’10” / 6’10” / 6’8” / 6’7” / 6’3”

You might have unrealistic expectations.

In comparison, Golden State last season:

McGee 7-0, KD 6-9 (or 7-0 depending who you believe), Draymond 6-7, Klay 6-7, Steph 6-3
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: It's time to have some perspective
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2019, 11:38:06 PM »

Offline Chris22

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Danny signed three allstars, none of whom is going to bring us a title. We need to upgrade our talent. Will Davis be enough? Probably not, but we can hope that we can find someone else to join him.

Davis + Kyrie + Hayward + Brown + Horford should be plenty.

Too small and too weak.

Kyrie and Hayward can't defend.

But I hope they prove me wrong.

Too small? 

6’10” / 6’10” / 6’8” / 6’7” / 6’3”

You might have unrealistic expectations.

Yes, too small and too weak.

Kyrie and Hayward can't defend.


Re: It's time to have some perspective
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2019, 11:55:07 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Danny signed three allstars, none of whom is going to bring us a title. We need to upgrade our talent. Will Davis be enough? Probably not, but we can hope that we can find someone else to join him.

Davis + Kyrie + Hayward + Brown + Horford should be plenty.

Too small and too weak.

Kyrie and Hayward can't defend.

But I hope they prove me wrong.

Too small? 

6’10” / 6’10” / 6’8” / 6’7” / 6’3”

You might have unrealistic expectations.

Yes, too small and too weak.

Kyrie and Hayward can't defend.

Very convincing argument.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: It's time to have some perspective
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2019, 01:42:18 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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The main thing I agree with you about is that this Celtics team played a style that was much closer to the thunder than a style akin to the warriors.

The heart of that contrast is key to understanding why this year's Celtics team fell short of expectations (I'm not interested in arguing for the umpteenth time about what those expectations should have been).

What I think you're eliding here is that the Celtics for the past several seasons outperformed the talent on the team. That history of the team as a whole exceeding the sum of the parts was a big driver of those same expectations that you argue should never have been so high.

So my point of view is that it's very important that we understand why the 2019 Celtics were less than the sum of the parts, or at best perhaps they were about equal to the sum of the parts (I don't believe that). 

What separated this team from other teams, including the pre-KD warriors and recent Celtics teams, that were greater than the sum of their parts?

Simply saying "talent" is far too simplistic and not particularly helpful, in my view.

Don't bother arguing on people who only look at the stats. By his logic, George Hill and Pat Connaughton are more talented than Kyrie. It's one thing to be outplayed by a Top 5 player, it's another when role players are the ones that killed you.
who thinks George hill or connaughton is better than kyrie?  Neither is a top 25 player.

Wow I want whatever these people are smoking if they think George Hill and Pat Connaughton are better than Kyrie Irving.

I'm just going to the motion that the "Bucks are more talented team". I think its better to say Bucks are the "better-built" team. Because if we go by individual talent, Celtics have better talent all-around collection of talent on paper. Bucks are top-heavy with the rest just being role players.

We would be a revisionist if you told me by the start of the season that Lopez will be the X-factor for the Bucks. We knew a coaching revamp would improve the Bucks team, but we didn't know Brook would provide much impact.

Brown and Tatum could start on lottery teams and probably average around 20 ppg. I don't know if you can say that to the rest of Bucks supporting cast not named Middleton or Giannis. Even Brook only averaged 13 PPG on a terrible Lakers team last year.

They are a more talented team.

Giannis is arguably the #1 player in the league.

You'd think seeing us get owned by LeBron year after year would get people to understand how much difference 1 elite player makes when matched up against a mediocre group.

Re: It's time to have some perspective
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2019, 09:50:36 AM »

Offline SCeltic34

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Danny signed three allstars, none of whom is going to bring us a title. We need to upgrade our talent. Will Davis be enough? Probably not, but we can hope that we can find someone else to join him.

Davis + Kyrie + Hayward + Brown + Horford should be plenty.

Too small and too weak.

Kyrie and Hayward can't defend.

But I hope they prove me wrong.

Too small? 

6’10” / 6’10” / 6’8” / 6’7” / 6’3”

You might have unrealistic expectations.

Yes, too small and too weak.

Kyrie and Hayward can't defend.

7'0" / 6'9" / 6'8" / 6'4"/ 6'10"

That's Philly's starting lineup (going off the heights listed on their roster page).  Throw in Marjanovic at 7'3" off the bench if you want.  Redick isn't the strongest player and is a defensive liability, but he isn't too small.  Size and strength guarantees nothing.  Philly has never been impressive at any point during their "process".

A combination of Davis + Horford + Hayward + Brown + Irving is more than good enough defensively.  Versatile and adequate size.  Irving is the weak link there but every good team has one.  Hayward isn't a bad defender. 

A lot of our issues stemmed from stagnant, poorly run offense and long scoring droughts, which in turn made it difficult to establish ourselves defensively in the half court consistently.  Adding AD should help with that.

Re: It's time to have some perspective
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2019, 10:48:22 AM »

Offline Triplenickle

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Hayward is about 6'7 and too slow to stay with anyone under that size.  He's not physical or strong enough to guard anyone bigger than that.

Hell, the guy nearly gets a concussion from running into a pick. He's not even half the player Morris is, and HE has those same issues to an extent.

Why do you guys want to torture yourself so much?  If it's because you know we can't get rid of his contract I understand...but if it's talent-related we would do just fine with Ojeleye instead of him.

Not even gonna mention Kyrie cause that's just a classic case of abusive relationship, so I understand why people are so "needy" when it comes to him.

Re: It's time to have some perspective
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2019, 10:59:43 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Hayward is about 6'7 and too slow to stay with anyone under that size.  He's not physical or strong enough to guard anyone bigger than that.

He's 6'8", maybe a quarter inch taller depending on what shoes he's wearing.

And, he's generally been an average to above-average defender of SFs.  He was a key cog in a defense that ranked 7th and 3rd in the NBA his two years prior to signing with Boston.

And I don't even know what to say to you linking concussions and toughness in some way.


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Re: It's time to have some perspective
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2019, 11:10:57 AM »

Offline Triplenickle

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Hayward is about 6'7 and too slow to stay with anyone under that size.  He's not physical or strong enough to guard anyone bigger than that.

He's 6'8", maybe a quarter inch taller depending on what shoes he's wearing.

And, he's generally been an average to above-average defender of SFs.  He was a key cog in a defense that ranked 7th and 3rd in the NBA his two years prior to signing with Boston.

And I don't even know what to say to you linking concussions and toughness in some way.

I thought he was 6'8 but tried not to make him look so bad.  And wasn't Ben wallace about 6'8?  And Barkley was 6'5 getting 14-18 rebounds easy against hall of fame centers.  It's what is between the ears, and for me Hayward just has to go.

For a player not knowing a pick is coming basically everytime someone puts the ball on the floor in games and in practice, is a player that cannot play for me...along with his multitude of other negatives.

I've just seen too many great defenders find a way to get by picks in a league of hand-checking and holding to ever forgive being that weak at it.

Also :)   For Rozier to basically say he doesn't wanna play with Kyrie and Hayward tells me he knows what's going on, on the floor and has a higher bbiq than yall would ever dare to give him.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 11:25:10 AM by Triplenickle »

Re: It's time to have some perspective
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2019, 12:00:08 PM »

Offline moiso

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The main thing I agree with you about is that this Celtics team played a style that was much closer to the thunder than a style akin to the warriors.

The heart of that contrast is key to understanding why this year's Celtics team fell short of expectations (I'm not interested in arguing for the umpteenth time about what those expectations should have been).

What I think you're eliding here is that the Celtics for the past several seasons outperformed the talent on the team. That history of the team as a whole exceeding the sum of the parts was a big driver of those same expectations that you argue should never have been so high.

So my point of view is that it's very important that we understand why the 2019 Celtics were less than the sum of the parts, or at best perhaps they were about equal to the sum of the parts (I don't believe that). 

What separated this team from other teams, including the pre-KD warriors and recent Celtics teams, that were greater than the sum of their parts?

Simply saying "talent" is far too simplistic and not particularly helpful, in my view.

Don't bother arguing on people who only look at the stats. By his logic, George Hill and Pat Connaughton are more talented than Kyrie. It's one thing to be outplayed by a Top 5 player, it's another when role players are the ones that killed you.
who thinks George hill or connaughton is better than kyrie?  Neither is a top 25 player.

Wow I want whatever these people are smoking if they think George Hill and Pat Connaughton are better than Kyrie Irving.

I'm just going to the motion that the "Bucks are more talented team". I think its better to say Bucks are the "better-built" team. Because if we go by individual talent, Celtics have better talent all-around collection of talent on paper. Bucks are top-heavy with the rest just being role players.

We would be a revisionist if you told me by the start of the season that Lopez will be the X-factor for the Bucks. We knew a coaching revamp would improve the Bucks team, but we didn't know Brook would provide much impact.

Brown and Tatum could start on lottery teams and probably average around 20 ppg. I don't know if you can say that to the rest of Bucks supporting cast not named Middleton or Giannis. Even Brook only averaged 13 PPG on a terrible Lakers team last year.

They are a more talented team.

Giannis is arguably the #1 player in the league.

You'd think seeing us get owned by LeBron year after year would get people to understand how much difference 1 elite player makes when matched up against a mediocre group.
Which is why Toronto, with another guy who is arguably the #1 player in the league beat Philly- who have nobody close to Kawhi’s level.  More talent and by far the best player.

Re: It's time to have some perspective
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2019, 12:53:49 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Hayward is about 6'7 and too slow to stay with anyone under that size.  He's not physical or strong enough to guard anyone bigger than that.

He's 6'8", maybe a quarter inch taller depending on what shoes he's wearing.

And, he's generally been an average to above-average defender of SFs.  He was a key cog in a defense that ranked 7th and 3rd in the NBA his two years prior to signing with Boston.

And I don't even know what to say to you linking concussions and toughness in some way.

I thought he was 6'8 but tried not to make him look so bad.  And wasn't Ben wallace about 6'8?  And Barkley was 6'5 getting 14-18 rebounds easy against hall of fame centers.  It's what is between the ears, and for me Hayward just has to go.

For a player not knowing a pick is coming basically everytime someone puts the ball on the floor in games and in practice, is a player that cannot play for me...along with his multitude of other negatives.

I've just seen too many great defenders find a way to get by picks in a league of hand-checking and holding to ever forgive being that weak at it.

Also :)   For Rozier to basically say he doesn't wanna play with Kyrie and Hayward tells me he knows what's going on, on the floor and has a higher bbiq than yall would ever dare to give him.
This is some hilarious posting. Wow, it's almost as if different players have different skill-sets. Why isn't Al Horford as good a rebounder as Bill Russell - they're the same height?? Genuinely dumbfounding.

You're just making things up about him and when people dispute it saying "well it's what I see!" even when it's completely arbitrary.

The last line about Rozier had me rolling. Perhaps the dumbest point guard in the NBA, and certainly one of the most toxic. Hope he wastes away on an irrelevant team
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Re: It's time to have some perspective
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2019, 02:01:51 PM »

Online mobilija

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Hey Tripnickle-
Have u read the “quality of posting” thread up on the latest discussions?
Good stuff

Re: It's time to have some perspective
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2019, 02:06:21 PM »

Offline SCeltic34

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Hayward is about 6'7 and too slow to stay with anyone under that size.  He's not physical or strong enough to guard anyone bigger than that.

He's 6'8", maybe a quarter inch taller depending on what shoes he's wearing.

And, he's generally been an average to above-average defender of SFs.  He was a key cog in a defense that ranked 7th and 3rd in the NBA his two years prior to signing with Boston.

And I don't even know what to say to you linking concussions and toughness in some way.

I thought he was 6'8 but tried not to make him look so bad.  And wasn't Ben wallace about 6'8?  And Barkley was 6'5 getting 14-18 rebounds easy against hall of fame centers.  It's what is between the ears, and for me Hayward just has to go.

For a player not knowing a pick is coming basically everytime someone puts the ball on the floor in games and in practice, is a player that cannot play for me...along with his multitude of other negatives.

I've just seen too many great defenders find a way to get by picks in a league of hand-checking and holding to ever forgive being that weak at it.

Also :)  For Rozier to basically say he doesn't wanna play with Kyrie and Hayward tells me he knows what's going on, on the floor and has a higher bbiq than yall would ever dare to give him.

That's a silly argument.  So if Hayward came out and said he doesn't want to play with Rozier and Kyrie, then would he "know what's going on"?  Or if Kyrie said that about Rozier and Morris?  There's no basis for that premise.  Both basic and advanced statistics paint Rozier negatively.  He might find more freedom on another team, and indeed thrive there (success in the NBA is often largely situational, such as Jeremy Lin with the Knicks), but he's clearly a net negative for the Celtics.  We don't need him, and I sure as hell don't want him with his bad attitude and selfish play.

I'm not sure what to say about the assertion that Ojeleye could replace Hayward.  If you're assuming that Hayward is going to continue to be injury ridden and miss a lot of games, or play like he did early in the season or like he did against the Bucks, then I guess you could make that argument.  He did show significant progression over the course of the season and was playing really well post-concussion.  Until we ran into the Bucks that is.  He's clearly not 100%, especially mentally.  There's still reason to be optimistic about his future, especially as his injury continues to fade into the back of his mind as he gets more game reps.  I like Ojeleye, but the notion that he could replace the production of a healthy Hayward is absurd.

Re: It's time to have some perspective
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2019, 02:13:05 PM »

Offline SCeltic34

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TP to LarBrd33 for the original post.  I've often disagreed with the things you've written in the past, but the post was objective and I agreed with a lot of it, especially the moving forward part.  I'm as disappointed with Kyrie as anybody, but losing him for nothing is far from ideal no matter how much you hate him.

Re: It's time to have some perspective
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2019, 04:40:18 PM »

Offline Triplenickle

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Hey Tripnickle-
Have u read the “quality of posting” thread up on the latest discussions?
Good stuff

I'm gonna check it out...cause I can't tell if you're messin with me  :)

And Gouki, I wish I was dumb enough to lead a team 5 minutes to the finals with only 4 other quality players.


Re: It's time to have some perspective
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2019, 05:35:45 PM »

Offline konkmv

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Keep irwing let rozier morris go... need a pass first pg... need some rebounding... sot blocking...