Author Topic: Ben Rohrbach destroys Nick Wright  (Read 6499 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Ben Rohrbach destroys Nick Wright
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2020, 10:20:31 AM »

Offline droopdog7

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6970
  • Tommy Points: 466
Just as an FYI, Nate Duncan and the other guy listed Tatum in tier 4 (or about 8th) best small forward.  I think the lesson learned here is that Celtic fan is getting just a little bit overboard about Tatum. 

https://podbay.fm/podcast/986901174/e/1582866000

I've noticed Duncan is always a bit negative on the Celtics. He consistently devotes less time talking about the Cs, and it is always with a resigned sigh when they are doing well. I respect their insight and it didn't used to bother me a lot, but the consistency with which Duncan disregards the Cs success has been enough for me to stop listening to them after several years of consistent listening.

Leonard and James are clearly better than Tatum (even though Tatum completely outplayed Leonard in the recent game). He's pretty clearly in the Middleton, Siakim, Butler, George (this year) tier. Doncic is better, if you count him as a small forward.

I definitely think you could argue that Tatum's last 23 games are better than any 23 games stretch from Middleton, Siakim, Butler, or George. If this is for real, and it has been real for over 1/4 of a season, then Tatum is the best overall player (scorer/shot creator/defender) of the bunch.
I think the hype is a little high for a couple of reasons.  First, Tatum is unsustainably hot right now.  Now, if he can sustain it, then superstar for sure.  But I can’t blame observers from questioning whether he can. 

Second, Tatum is a much better scorer than playmaker.  He still doesn’t make other ms better, and that should not be ignored.  We’ll see how that evolves over time.

As for Duncan, he’s not a shock guy like Wright.  He’s much more objective, though he can certainly be wrong.  Thinking that he’s biased is likely more to do with fan bias than his.

Re: Ben Rohrbach destroys Nick Wright
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2020, 10:26:30 AM »

Offline footey

  • Reggie Lewis
  • ***************
  • Posts: 15965
  • Tommy Points: 1833
Just as an FYI, Nate Duncan and the other guy listed Tatum in tier 4 (or about 8th) best small forward.  I think the lesson learned here is that Celtic fan is getting just a little bit overboard about Tatum. 

https://podbay.fm/podcast/986901174/e/1582866000

Which 7 does he rank ahead of him?  And when did he compile the list?  I respect his opinion, probably discounting for recency bias. 

Re: Ben Rohrbach destroys Nick Wright
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2020, 10:27:35 AM »

Offline footey

  • Reggie Lewis
  • ***************
  • Posts: 15965
  • Tommy Points: 1833
Regarding Nick Wright, his living depends on heavy trolling, especially of Boston teams.  That is why I have learned to ignore him. The attention only increases his value. 

Re: Ben Rohrbach destroys Nick Wright
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2020, 10:35:05 AM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6043
  • Tommy Points: 766
Just as an FYI, Nate Duncan and the other guy listed Tatum in tier 4 (or about 8th) best small forward.  I think the lesson learned here is that Celtic fan is getting just a little bit overboard about Tatum. 

https://podbay.fm/podcast/986901174/e/1582866000

I've noticed Duncan is always a bit negative on the Celtics. He consistently devotes less time talking about the Cs, and it is always with a resigned sigh when they are doing well. I respect their insight and it didn't used to bother me a lot, but the consistency with which Duncan disregards the Cs success has been enough for me to stop listening to them after several years of consistent listening.

Leonard and James are clearly better than Tatum (even though Tatum completely outplayed Leonard in the recent game). He's pretty clearly in the Middleton, Siakim, Butler, George (this year) tier. Doncic is better, if you count him as a small forward.

I definitely think you could argue that Tatum's last 23 games are better than any 23 games stretch from Middleton, Siakim, Butler, or George. If this is for real, and it has been real for over 1/4 of a season, then Tatum is the best overall player (scorer/shot creator/defender) of the bunch.
I think the hype is a little high for a couple of reasons.  First, Tatum is unsustainably hot right now.  Now, if he can sustain it, then superstar for sure.  But I can’t blame observers from questioning whether he can. 

Second, Tatum is a much better scorer than playmaker.  He still doesn’t make other ms better, and that should not be ignored.  We’ll see how that evolves over time.

As for Duncan, he’s not a shock guy like Wright.  He’s much more objective, though he can certainly be wrong.  Thinking that he’s biased is likely more to do with fan bias than his.

I know what Duncan is about. But his fan bias does seep through quite a bit.

Tatum is shooting 43% the last 23 games, which is right where he was shooting for his full rookie season. He's been hot the last 10 or so, but over the last 23, he's also getting to the free throw line more and generally scoring at a more efficient rate.

When he cools down, he will still be getting 26-28 a night.

He's also averaging 3 assists a game. That's not a lot and he has to keep taking steps forward as a facilitator, but that's pretty good.

On top of that, he's playing high level defense, averaging a block and over a steal a game while playing everyone from guards to forwards.

A 28-7-3-1-1 guy who is helping his team win like Tatum is a top 5 wing for sure. That's where Tatum is at. Plus, he can go toe-to-toe with the best wings in the NBA and win the matchup. Just ask Leonard and James.

Re: Ben Rohrbach destroys Nick Wright
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2020, 10:42:28 AM »

Offline droopdog7

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6970
  • Tommy Points: 466
Just as an FYI, Nate Duncan and the other guy listed Tatum in tier 4 (or about 8th) best small forward.  I think the lesson learned here is that Celtic fan is getting just a little bit overboard about Tatum. 

https://podbay.fm/podcast/986901174/e/1582866000

Which 7 does he rank ahead of him?  And when did he compile the list?  I respect his opinion, probably discounting for recency bias.
Kawhi, LeBron, luka, KD, George, and Middleton in first three tiers.  Tatum in same tier as butler, tatum technically 8th I believe.  It’s the newest podcast so probably recorded last night.  The criteria was the guy you would want a year from today.

Re: Ben Rohrbach destroys Nick Wright
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2020, 10:44:07 AM »

Offline Donoghus

  • Global Moderator
  • Bill Russell
  • ******************************
  • Posts: 30939
  • Tommy Points: 1607
  • What a Pub Should Be
Just as an FYI, Nate Duncan and the other guy listed Tatum in tier 4 (or about 8th) best small forward.  I think the lesson learned here is that Celtic fan is getting just a little bit overboard about Tatum. 

https://podbay.fm/podcast/986901174/e/1582866000

Which 7 does he rank ahead of him?  And when did he compile the list?  I respect his opinion, probably discounting for recency bias.
Kawhi, LeBron, luka, KD, George, and Middleton in first three tiers.  Tatum in same tier as butler, tatum technically 8th I believe.  It’s the newest podcast so probably recorded last night.  The criteria was the guy you would want a year from today.

Unless Middleton is playing 82 games a year against the Celtics, I don't see how he is ahead of Tatum.  Especially for a guy that you want a year from today.


2010 CB Historical Draft - Best Overall Team

Re: Ben Rohrbach destroys Nick Wright
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2020, 10:44:59 AM »

Offline droopdog7

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6970
  • Tommy Points: 466
Just as an FYI, Nate Duncan and the other guy listed Tatum in tier 4 (or about 8th) best small forward.  I think the lesson learned here is that Celtic fan is getting just a little bit overboard about Tatum. 

https://podbay.fm/podcast/986901174/e/1582866000

I've noticed Duncan is always a bit negative on the Celtics. He consistently devotes less time talking about the Cs, and it is always with a resigned sigh when they are doing well. I respect their insight and it didn't used to bother me a lot, but the consistency with which Duncan disregards the Cs success has been enough for me to stop listening to them after several years of consistent listening.

Leonard and James are clearly better than Tatum (even though Tatum completely outplayed Leonard in the recent game). He's pretty clearly in the Middleton, Siakim, Butler, George (this year) tier. Doncic is better, if you count him as a small forward.

I definitely think you could argue that Tatum's last 23 games are better than any 23 games stretch from Middleton, Siakim, Butler, or George. If this is for real, and it has been real for over 1/4 of a season, then Tatum is the best overall player (scorer/shot creator/defender) of the bunch.
I think the hype is a little high for a couple of reasons.  First, Tatum is unsustainably hot right now.  Now, if he can sustain it, then superstar for sure.  But I can’t blame observers from questioning whether he can. 

Second, Tatum is a much better scorer than playmaker.  He still doesn’t make other ms better, and that should not be ignored.  We’ll see how that evolves over time.

As for Duncan, he’s not a shock guy like Wright.  He’s much more objective, though he can certainly be wrong.  Thinking that he’s biased is likely more to do with fan bias than his.

I know what Duncan is about. But his fan bias does seep through quite a bit.

Tatum is shooting 43% the last 23 games, which is right where he was shooting for his full rookie season. He's been hot the last 10 or so, but over the last 23, he's also getting to the free throw line more and generally scoring at a more efficient rate.

When he cools down, he will still be getting 26-28 a night.

He's also averaging 3 assists a game. That's not a lot and he has to keep taking steps forward as a facilitator, but that's pretty good.

On top of that, he's playing high level defense, averaging a block and over a steal a game while playing everyone from guards to forwards.

A 28-7-3-1-1 guy who is helping his team win like Tatum is a top 5 wing for sure. That's where Tatum is at. Plus, he can go toe-to-toe with the best wings in the NBA and win the matchup. Just ask Leonard and James.
I disagree that Tatum will be averaging 26-28 a game down the stretch and that three assists is pretty good.  I think once the full squad is I expect he’ll go back down to 22-23 a game.  And I don’t think one can bring up his fan bias without first acknowledging their own.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2020, 10:52:04 AM by droopdog7 »

Re: Ben Rohrbach destroys Nick Wright
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2020, 10:55:29 AM »

Offline footey

  • Reggie Lewis
  • ***************
  • Posts: 15965
  • Tommy Points: 1833
Just as an FYI, Nate Duncan and the other guy listed Tatum in tier 4 (or about 8th) best small forward.  I think the lesson learned here is that Celtic fan is getting just a little bit overboard about Tatum. 

https://podbay.fm/podcast/986901174/e/1582866000

I've noticed Duncan is always a bit negative on the Celtics. He consistently devotes less time talking about the Cs, and it is always with a resigned sigh when they are doing well. I respect their insight and it didn't used to bother me a lot, but the consistency with which Duncan disregards the Cs success has been enough for me to stop listening to them after several years of consistent listening.

Leonard and James are clearly better than Tatum (even though Tatum completely outplayed Leonard in the recent game). He's pretty clearly in the Middleton, Siakim, Butler, George (this year) tier. Doncic is better, if you count him as a small forward.

I definitely think you could argue that Tatum's last 23 games are better than any 23 games stretch from Middleton, Siakim, Butler, or George. If this is for real, and it has been real for over 1/4 of a season, then Tatum is the best overall player (scorer/shot creator/defender) of the bunch.

I listen to his podcast a lot.  He is really smart, analytical.  And I don't see the anti-Boston bias like you do.  For example, he ranked Marcus Smart pretty high among 2 guards in his latest ranking (I haven't listened to his small forward list yet), giving his defense and moxie major points, whereas a straight stats geek (which Nate often is, but not with Smart) would rank Smart much lower.  Anyway, I strongly disagree with his ranking of Tatum, but I bet you will see him revise it after the season, especially if we get far into the playoffs.

Re: Ben Rohrbach destroys Nick Wright
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2020, 11:00:59 AM »

Offline droopdog7

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6970
  • Tommy Points: 466
Just as an FYI, Nate Duncan and the other guy listed Tatum in tier 4 (or about 8th) best small forward.  I think the lesson learned here is that Celtic fan is getting just a little bit overboard about Tatum. 

https://podbay.fm/podcast/986901174/e/1582866000

Which 7 does he rank ahead of him?  And when did he compile the list?  I respect his opinion, probably discounting for recency bias.
Kawhi, LeBron, luka, KD, George, and Middleton in first three tiers.  Tatum in same tier as butler, tatum technically 8th I believe.  It’s the newest podcast so probably recorded last night.  The criteria was the guy you would want a year from today.

Unless Middleton is playing 82 games a year against the Celtics, I don't see how he is ahead of Tatum.  Especially for a guy that you want a year from today.
That would mostly depend on your view of Tatum.  Middleton should be just as good next year so clearly Duncan is bearish on Tatum.  Middleton this year is scoring less but more efficient.

Re: Ben Rohrbach destroys Nick Wright
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2020, 11:02:49 AM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6043
  • Tommy Points: 766
Just as an FYI, Nate Duncan and the other guy listed Tatum in tier 4 (or about 8th) best small forward.  I think the lesson learned here is that Celtic fan is getting just a little bit overboard about Tatum. 

https://podbay.fm/podcast/986901174/e/1582866000

I've noticed Duncan is always a bit negative on the Celtics. He consistently devotes less time talking about the Cs, and it is always with a resigned sigh when they are doing well. I respect their insight and it didn't used to bother me a lot, but the consistency with which Duncan disregards the Cs success has been enough for me to stop listening to them after several years of consistent listening.

Leonard and James are clearly better than Tatum (even though Tatum completely outplayed Leonard in the recent game). He's pretty clearly in the Middleton, Siakim, Butler, George (this year) tier. Doncic is better, if you count him as a small forward.

I definitely think you could argue that Tatum's last 23 games are better than any 23 games stretch from Middleton, Siakim, Butler, or George. If this is for real, and it has been real for over 1/4 of a season, then Tatum is the best overall player (scorer/shot creator/defender) of the bunch.
I think the hype is a little high for a couple of reasons.  First, Tatum is unsustainably hot right now.  Now, if he can sustain it, then superstar for sure.  But I can’t blame observers from questioning whether he can. 

Second, Tatum is a much better scorer than playmaker.  He still doesn’t make other ms better, and that should not be ignored.  We’ll see how that evolves over time.

As for Duncan, he’s not a shock guy like Wright.  He’s much more objective, though he can certainly be wrong.  Thinking that he’s biased is likely more to do with fan bias than his.

I know what Duncan is about. But his fan bias does seep through quite a bit.

Tatum is shooting 43% the last 23 games, which is right where he was shooting for his full rookie season. He's been hot the last 10 or so, but over the last 23, he's also getting to the free throw line more and generally scoring at a more efficient rate.

When he cools down, he will still be getting 26-28 a night.

He's also averaging 3 assists a game. That's not a lot and he has to keep taking steps forward as a facilitator, but that's pretty good.

On top of that, he's playing high level defense, averaging a block and over a steal a game while playing everyone from guards to forwards.

A 28-7-3-1-1 guy who is helping his team win like Tatum is a top 5 wing for sure. That's where Tatum is at. Plus, he can go toe-to-toe with the best wings in the NBA and win the matchup. Just ask Leonard and James.
I disagree that Tatum will be averaging 26-28 a game down the stretch and that three assists is pretty good.  I think once the full squad is I expect he’ll go back down to 22-23 a game.  And I don’t think one can bring up his fan bias without first acknowledging their own.

What's to acknowledge? I think I'm a pretty level-headed fan. There are times when I get too high on someone, but I was not impressed with Tatum to begin the year. He reminded me more of Brandon Ingram than Paul George.

The first 24 games he was forcing his shots and shooting 41/37 from the field and only getting 4 free throws a games. Averaging 21 points a game. The 23 games since he is at 26 ppg and shooting 49/43 and getting 5 free throws a game. Which is the real Tatum?

He is passing the eye test right now, and not just because his shooting is hot. He is controlling the game. Teams have to double team him. He is getting to the basket and getting the shots he wants against the best defenders in the NBA.

It's ok to be appropriately positive about his play. He's not an MVP candidate or anything like that.

If the question on the podcast was who you would rather have a year from now, it's ridiculous that Tatum was 8th. Right now he 4th-5th over Middleton, Butler, Siakim, and George. On top of that, he has proven he can go toe-to-toe with Leonard and James without getting overmatched. Players like that are rare.

Re: Ben Rohrbach destroys Nick Wright
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2020, 11:06:06 AM »

Offline ETNCeltics

  • NCE
  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2720
  • Tommy Points: 306
Just as an FYI, Nate Duncan and the other guy listed Tatum in tier 4 (or about 8th) best small forward.  I think the lesson learned here is that Celtic fan is getting just a little bit overboard about Tatum. 

https://podbay.fm/podcast/986901174/e/1582866000

I've noticed Duncan is always a bit negative on the Celtics. He consistently devotes less time talking about the Cs, and it is always with a resigned sigh when they are doing well. I respect their insight and it didn't used to bother me a lot, but the consistency with which Duncan disregards the Cs success has been enough for me to stop listening to them after several years of consistent listening.

Leonard and James are clearly better than Tatum (even though Tatum completely outplayed Leonard in the recent game). He's pretty clearly in the Middleton, Siakim, Butler, George (this year) tier. Doncic is better, if you count him as a small forward.

I definitely think you could argue that Tatum's last 23 games are better than any 23 games stretch from Middleton, Siakim, Butler, or George. If this is for real, and it has been real for over 1/4 of a season, then Tatum is the best overall player (scorer/shot creator/defender) of the bunch.
I think the hype is a little high for a couple of reasons.  First, Tatum is unsustainably hot right now.  Now, if he can sustain it, then superstar for sure.  But I can’t blame observers from questioning whether he can. 

Second, Tatum is a much better scorer than playmaker.  He still doesn’t make other ms better, and that should not be ignored.  We’ll see how that evolves over time.

As for Duncan, he’s not a shock guy like Wright.  He’s much more objective, though he can certainly be wrong.  Thinking that he’s biased is likely more to do with fan bias than his.

I know what Duncan is about. But his fan bias does seep through quite a bit.

Tatum is shooting 43% the last 23 games, which is right where he was shooting for his full rookie season. He's been hot the last 10 or so, but over the last 23, he's also getting to the free throw line more and generally scoring at a more efficient rate.

When he cools down, he will still be getting 26-28 a night.

He's also averaging 3 assists a game. That's not a lot and he has to keep taking steps forward as a facilitator, but that's pretty good.

On top of that, he's playing high level defense, averaging a block and over a steal a game while playing everyone from guards to forwards.

A 28-7-3-1-1 guy who is helping his team win like Tatum is a top 5 wing for sure. That's where Tatum is at. Plus, he can go toe-to-toe with the best wings in the NBA and win the matchup. Just ask Leonard and James.
Tatum is shooting 49/44/80 over his last 23 games, averaging 26/7.

Re: Ben Rohrbach destroys Nick Wright
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2020, 11:13:17 AM »

Offline Fafnir

  • Bill Russell
  • ******************************
  • Posts: 30859
  • Tommy Points: 1327
Nate Duncan thinks Tatum is bad at defense and generally doesn't like his game. Just how he's evaluated him since he was a draft prospect.

He thought Kyrie Irving was a more deserving all-star than Jaylen or Jayson also so  ::).

Re: Ben Rohrbach destroys Nick Wright
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2020, 11:17:24 AM »

Offline Fafnir

  • Bill Russell
  • ******************************
  • Posts: 30859
  • Tommy Points: 1327
Also one of the things to remember about the Dun'c On guys is that while they cover national NBA stuff, they are west coast based and GSW focused most years. They don't watch every team an equal amount. This is most noticeable when they go around the NBA and talk about teams based on box scores.

They've actually been a lot better on non-GSW stuff this year since the GSW sucking so bad has freed up a lot of their viewing time.

Re: Ben Rohrbach destroys Nick Wright
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2020, 11:41:51 AM »

Offline dannyboy35

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1939
  • Tommy Points: 104
 Wright has a big anti Celtic thing going but I don’t think his tiers are crazy at all .
  I think the author is wrong that anyone in that Tatum tier is t in his league. I’m so excited about his future but talking presently. But it’s good to see Nick upset at good stuff happening for us. Dang, he really dislikes Ainge, too.

Re: Ben Rohrbach destroys Nick Wright
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2020, 01:39:21 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6043
  • Tommy Points: 766
Just listened to the first few minutes of the Dunc'd on podcast small forward rankings. They put Leonard in a Tier by himself above James and Doncic.

Lebron James is one of my least favorite players, but there is no denying his greatness, even now. He is in the same tier as Leonard. No doubt about that. He's a better offensive player than Leonard and he's the one guy I'd want if I needed to win one game right now.

I think NBA pundits have talked themselves into Leonard, and I don't fully see it. Don't get me wrong: he is a top 5 player in the NBA, but this idea that he is in his own tier is kinda' silly.

This wreaks of an echo chamber conversation. They keep saying the same things over and over again and each time build Leonard up a little more. It reminds me a lot of draft conversations during this time of year when a player gets talked up more and more until he gets taken top 3.

Don't get me wrong. I think Leonard is a really, really good basketball player, but this idea that he is on another level than James is silly.

That take alone by Nate and Danny was enough to cast aspersions on their rankings as a whole. They seem less objective that they think they are.