Author Topic: The 3-wing lineup: Hayward + Brown + Tatum  (Read 7290 times)

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Re: The 3-wing lineup: Hayward + Brown + Tatum
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2019, 10:54:14 AM »

Offline MichiganAdam

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I think overall the lineup has good size.  We are a little lacking in beef at 1 spot.  1.  JB/MS have well above average size at the "2".  JB in height, MS in beef.  "SF" we are at least average.  PG we are average.  C we are around average.  Where we excel is the athleticism of our top 6.  I think this team runs.  With kanter and our above average "wings" rebounding the ball(better than last year for sure I think), I think we run ALOT more.  This will negate alot of the size "issue" on O.  On D big lineups will have some advantage, but we can negate some of that with switching and fast rotations.  We will see.

Re: The 3-wing lineup: Hayward + Brown + Tatum
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2019, 10:57:05 AM »

Offline __ramonezy__

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Ahmmm this does little to allay any fears as all, if not most, of the data is circumstantial.

Last season teams couldn't game plan for our weakness at PF cuz we could always bring in Al... which was so good that another team paid $100+m for him. Him as an insurance policy whether on the game or on the bench would force teams to actually avoid the PF position... we have no replacement on the team... not the floor... so every team will now be looking to tee off on us at that position.

Re: The 3-wing lineup: Hayward + Brown + Tatum
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2019, 10:59:47 AM »

Offline Erik

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This is the old IT problem. You will soon see that Smart and Walker will be married on the court to make up for Walker's defensive inabilities due to size.

Re: The 3-wing lineup: Hayward + Brown + Tatum
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2019, 11:01:14 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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You have shown some number but numbers say different things depending on how you look at them.  In my case, I have a admitted bias towards bigger lineups so I see the numbers and see that what its shows is you can get away with these small units for short periods of time so long and for the vast majority of the time you have Morris and Horford playing.

I don't disagree that you can put Tatum out there and say go cover Pascal Siakam (just for example) and he will do it and it won't be the end of the world (for short periods of time).  I would rather put Tatum out there and say go play like a wing though and have a true big (or swing big like Morris) do the the other things.
The problem is there are no PF's on this team that aren't rookies or deep bench level type players.  Tatum has to play PF because quite simply there is no one else.  The only other person that you could even make an argument to start is Smart and he makes the team smaller and that makes Wanamaker the only back-up PG on the roster (again a real problem). 

The simple truth is, the roster construction is a hot mess.

Yes, the roster is imbalanced.  The minutes are there for Hayward, Brown, Smart, and Tatum without them needing to play much at PF.  They will share the vast majority of the SG and SF minutes plus take some PG minutes (Smart) and some PF minutes.  But the vast majority of the PF and C minutes are going to need to filled by Kanter, Theis, Ojeleye, RWilliams, and Poirier (plus maybe GWilliams).

If you decide you need to play Tatum at PF for example, so that Theis plays less, that will mean that maybe Edwards needs to play more.  I would rather see Theis or Ojeleye get the minutes at their natural position than have Tatum play out of position and then get more of Edwards.  It is clearly a lesser of two evils kind of thing but I feel that is how it is going to play out.

Re: The 3-wing lineup: Hayward + Brown + Tatum
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2019, 11:02:41 AM »

Offline MichiganAdam

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i would think JB could do almost as well, given we need to use MS as bu pg at least part of the time.

Re: The 3-wing lineup: Hayward + Brown + Tatum
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2019, 11:40:26 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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If Walker plays 32 min at PG, that means Smart plays 16 at PG (I am simplifying this just to illustrate).  Add that to the 96 minutes for SG and SF and that is 112 minutes split between Smart, Brown, Hayward, Tatum or about 28 min each.  Now if you say Tatum plays 8 minutes in some form of small ball line up at PF, that means 30 min each. 

If Tatum or one of the wings plays more at PF, some one else is going to need to start seeing minutes at PG, SG, or SF.  That someone is than Edwards, or Wannamaker, or Langford.  Is that better then more minutes for Ojeleye or Theis?  Maybe, who knows as there are a lot of question marks with all of these fringe players.  Hopefully one of the bigs emerges and plays better than expected and makes this easy.

Re: The 3-wing lineup: Hayward + Brown + Tatum
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2019, 12:08:11 PM »

Offline Moranis

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If Walker plays 32 min at PG, that means Smart plays 16 at PG (I am simplifying this just to illustrate).  Add that to the 96 minutes for SG and SF and that is 112 minutes split between Smart, Brown, Hayward, Tatum or about 28 min each.  Now if you say Tatum plays 8 minutes in some form of small ball line up at PF, that means 30 min each. 

If Tatum or one of the wings plays more at PF, some one else is going to need to start seeing minutes at PG, SG, or SF.  That someone is than Edwards, or Wannamaker, or Langford.  Is that better then more minutes for Ojeleye or Theis?  Maybe, who knows as there are a lot of question marks with all of these fringe players.  Hopefully one of the bigs emerges and plays better than expected and makes this easy.
I posted this in another thread recently, but this is basically how I see the minutes shaking out.

PG - Walker 34, Smart 10, Wanamaker/Edwards 4
SG - Brown 15, Smart 20, Langford 13
SF - Hayward 31, Brown 17
PF - Tatum 32, Semi 10, G. Williams 6
C - Kanter 30, Theis 10, R. Williams 8

Maybe Semi or Theis eats up some of those Langford minutes moving Tatum over to SF a bit, but I really can't see how Tatum isn't spending a lot of time at the 4 this year. 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: The 3-wing lineup: Hayward + Brown + Tatum
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2019, 12:23:18 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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I feel a lot will depend on the match ups game to game. Against a team like 76ers the lineup might be an issue if the guys are missing shots but against most teams it's pretty good as all three wings rebound well and all three are solid help defenders.


The plus of running wings is your team is supposed to be more mobile so playing style will dictate success if they can impose that strength. Fast pace and space with swarming help defense.

Re: The 3-wing lineup: Hayward + Brown + Tatum
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2019, 12:25:53 PM »

Offline footey

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Watching Tatum on the USA team, I think some here are underselling his ability to play the power forward position against decently sized guys. Will be interesting to watch him cover Al Horford opening night.

Re: The 3-wing lineup: Hayward + Brown + Tatum
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2019, 12:38:18 PM »

Offline tstorey_97

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Thanks mmmm

I see this as Steven's opening line up. I'm don't agree with Stevens, but, he will do it and it will win a ton of games.

I'll always be the "Hayward off the bench" guy for the same reasons he came off the bench last year.

Hopefully, these reasons will be a distant memory once the new season begins.


Re: The 3-wing lineup: Hayward + Brown + Tatum
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2019, 12:43:15 PM »

Offline Silky

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Watching Tatum on the USA team, I think some here are underselling his ability to play the power forward position against decently sized guys. Will be interesting to watch him cover Al Horford opening night.

havent seen him play much PF against team usa in those practices at all. Looks like he is almost always a SF, lots of time with Kuzma as the PF.

I just cannot see Tatum going up against the likes of:
Siakam
Morris
Randle
Aminu
Collins
Griffin
Ibaka
Markannen
Young
Harris
Favors
Milsap
Gordon
Love
Aldridge
Green
JJJ
Sabonis
Kristaps
Bagley 3
Zion
Giannis

The PF spot is strong again in the nba, and I mean Physically strong, I dont see Tatum muscling any of those guys. And that renders him a liability on defense, and if he gives everything he has, his offense will suffer for it. (wearing out legs, etc)

Re: The 3-wing lineup: Hayward + Brown + Tatum
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2019, 12:50:19 PM »

Offline Walker Wiggle

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Watching Tatum on the USA team, I think some here are underselling his ability to play the power forward position against decently sized guys. Will be interesting to watch him cover Al Horford opening night.

havent seen him play much PF against team usa in those practices at all. Looks like he is almost always a SF, lots of time with Kuzma as the PF.

I just cannot see Tatum going up against the likes of:
Siakam
Morris
Randle
Aminu
Collins
Griffin
Ibaka
Markannen
Young
Harris
Favors
Milsap
Gordon
Love
Aldridge
Green
JJJ
Sabonis
Kristaps
Bagley 3
Zion
Giannis

The PF spot is strong again in the nba, and I mean Physically strong, I dont see Tatum muscling any of those guys. And that renders him a liability on defense, and if he gives everything he has, his offense will suffer for it. (wearing out legs, etc)

My reply to this would be:

1) A lot of those guys spend much of their time at the 5 at this stage of their careers and at this stage of basketball history. Aldridge, for instance.
2) Much of those guys Tatum can handle easily. Are you worried about Tatum guarding Morris? Thad Young? Is Markannen going to abuse him on the low block? Tatum has a 9'0" standing reach, as another poster mentioned. And he's thin, but let's not exaggerate.
3) He won't have the sole responsibility of guarding 4s. You have two other guys -- Jaylen and Gordon -- who are bigger wings that will share the responsibilities on a match-up basis.

EDIT: Let's also add 4) some of those guys -- Giannis most notably -- can't be guarded by anyone in the league, no matter their size and weight.

Re: The 3-wing lineup: Hayward + Brown + Tatum
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2019, 01:07:48 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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Watching Tatum on the USA team, I think some here are underselling his ability to play the power forward position against decently sized guys. Will be interesting to watch him cover Al Horford opening night.

havent seen him play much PF against team usa in those practices at all. Looks like he is almost always a SF, lots of time with Kuzma as the PF.

I just cannot see Tatum going up against the likes of:
Siakam
Morris
Randle
Aminu
Collins
Griffin
Ibaka
Markannen
Young
Harris
Favors
Milsap
Gordon
Love
Aldridge
Green
JJJ
Sabonis
Kristaps
Bagley 3
Zion
Giannis

The PF spot is strong again in the nba, and I mean Physically strong, I dont see Tatum muscling any of those guys. And that renders him a liability on defense, and if he gives everything he has, his offense will suffer for it. (wearing out legs, etc)

First of all, historical Brown plays the big forwards on defense.

Second, i look at that list very differently than you do. That list does not scare me at all. The PF position is not strong. Plus, those power fowards have to match up with Tatum on the other end too. Few can do that for a full game.

Re: The 3-wing lineup: Hayward + Brown + Tatum
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2019, 01:59:51 PM »

Offline td450

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There are less than 10 bully power forwards in the NBA; players that can overpower a small forward consistently enough to create a problem.

Re: The 3-wing lineup: Hayward + Brown + Tatum
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2019, 02:34:15 PM »

Offline ETNCeltics

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Most of those guys in Silky's post aren't real PFs, and a lot of them will be playing the 5 not the 4. Siakam isn't a real 4. He's a little bigger version of Tatum. Morris, really? How hard is it to defend him jacking 3s all night? Aminu? What does he score, 5 a game? Markanen and Porzingis are outmuscling exactly who?

The list of EC power forwards who can really hurt you is pretty short. Collins, Griffin, and a few others. Most of those other guys are washed up, never really good to begin with, or no more physical than Kyrie Irving. If Tobias harris is someone's idea of a PF, then they should love any of our 3 wings defending the position.

IMO, Hayward will be getting first crack at defending guys like Siakam, and when it comes to Freak, no one has a player who can match up with him.