Author Topic: Melo's problem in a nutshell  (Read 14037 times)

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Re: Melo's problem in a nutshell
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2008, 01:33:23 PM »

Offline Ersatz

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You guys act like lazy is a bad thing.

Re: Melo's problem in a nutshell
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2008, 02:00:27 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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<Snip>

you could say that, it would be unture, but you could say it.
<snip>

If he gave a [dang] about his game, AT ALL, he'd already be able to play better defense and handel better. but he doesn't seem to care. He's content with being a great scorer, which he no doubt is.
<snip>

Um...so Anthony hasn't shown much defensively up to this point in his career, is somewhat turnover prone, and focuses too much on scoring, and these are ways that he's DIFFERENT from a young Paul Pierce? 

Carmelo was 23 during the regular season this year - here are his stats and Pierce's stats for the season during which he was 23 (00-01):

                FG %  3P%  Turn  Blk  Stl  Reb  Ast  PPG
           -----------------------------------------------------
Pierce:    .454   .383    3.2    .8   1.7   6.3   3.1   25.3
Anthony: .492   .354    3.3    .5   1.3   7.4   3.4   25.7

Just slightly similar.  And during his 1 year at Syracuse, Anthony was known as a so-so post player who mostly got by on physical dominance - his jump shot was also very streaky.  Most people don't realize he played by far his best ball of his life during the NCAAs that year, and quite a bit of that came from hard work and gaining the confidence and basketball IQ to use his physical advantages.  Despite the flaws in his game, he is a far superior player now than he was then, but his great tourney in college and lack of success in the NBA tend to cloud that and make it seem like he's been treading water since then.  Remember, this is a guy who was a totally unknown 6 foot nothing point guard until he hit a huge growth spurt his junior year of high school - regaining coordination over a new body like that takes quite a bit of time and, yes, work.

The analogy's not perfect, but the numbers are very similar and the attitude definitely is.  I just hate seeing the usual suspects pile on without knowing anything about the guy, or realizing that a lack of playoff success doesn't mean a player is lazy and will never succeed.

Re: Melo's problem in a nutshell
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2008, 02:01:12 PM »

Offline soap07

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I'm sorry, where are the reports of Melo's lack of work ethic? People's preconceived notions are hilarious. "Other than his rebounding, he's the same player as his sophomore year."

Okay, well other than three point shooting, Ray Allen isn't as potent of a scorer. See how easy that is? Carmelo is an elite rebounder and scorer at his position, how many other players in the league can say that?

Has he been out of the first round? No. But how many players can say they were the best player on a Western Conference 
He's really one dimensional. His 3 point shooting percentage went up to a solid 35% from 27% his sophomore year. Must be from all the work he doesn't put into his game in the offseason.

Re: Melo's problem in a nutshell
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2008, 02:04:39 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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I'm sorry, where are the reports of Melo's lack of work ethic? People's preconceived notions are hilarious. "Other than his rebounding, he's the same player as his sophomore year."

Okay, well other than three point shooting, Ray Allen isn't as potent of a scorer. See how easy that is? Carmelo is an elite rebounder and scorer at his position, how many other players in the league can say that?

Has he been out of the first round? No. But how many players can say they were the best player on a Western Conference 
He's really one dimensional. His 3 point shooting percentage went up to a solid 35% from 27% his sophomore year. Must be from all the work he doesn't put into his game in the offseason.

Bbbut you don't get it, he has TATTOOS.  Several of them.  And he was in the background of a street DVD looking awkward.  Therefore, lazy thug.  QED.

Re: Melo's problem in a nutshell
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2008, 02:07:35 PM »

Offline BballTim

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<Snip>

you could say that, it would be unture, but you could say it.
<snip>

If he gave a [dang] about his game, AT ALL, he'd already be able to play better defense and handel better. but he doesn't seem to care. He's content with being a great scorer, which he no doubt is.
<snip>

Um...so Anthony hasn't shown much defensively up to this point in his career, is somewhat turnover prone, and focuses too much on scoring, and these are ways that he's DIFFERENT from a young Paul Pierce? 

  Pierce was a good defender when he came into the league.

Re: Melo's problem in a nutshell
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2008, 02:10:32 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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<Snip>

you could say that, it would be unture, but you could say it.
<snip>

If he gave a [dang] about his game, AT ALL, he'd already be able to play better defense and handel better. but he doesn't seem to care. He's content with being a great scorer, which he no doubt is.
<snip>

Um...so Anthony hasn't shown much defensively up to this point in his career, is somewhat turnover prone, and focuses too much on scoring, and these are ways that he's DIFFERENT from a young Paul Pierce? 

  Pierce was a good defender when he came into the league.

Pierce was a solid defender when he wanted to be, which wasn't particularly often when the team was decent, and practically never when they sucked.  Feel like addressing the rest of the post where I showed their numbers were virtually identical?

Re: Melo's problem in a nutshell
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2008, 02:11:40 PM »

Offline crownsy

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<Snip>

you could say that, it would be unture, but you could say it.
<snip>

If he gave a [dang] about his game, AT ALL, he'd already be able to play better defense and handel better. but he doesn't seem to care. He's content with being a great scorer, which he no doubt is.
<snip>

Um...so Anthony hasn't shown much defensively up to this point in his career, is somewhat turnover prone, and focuses too much on scoring, and these are ways that he's DIFFERENT from a young Paul Pierce? 

Carmelo was 23 during the regular season this year - here are his stats and Pierce's stats for the season during which he was 23 (00-01):

                FG %  3P%  Turn  Blk  Stl  Reb  Ast  PPG
           -----------------------------------------------------
Pierce:    .454   .383    3.2    .8   1.7   6.3   3.1   25.3
Anthony: .492   .354    3.3    .5   1.3   7.4   3.4   25.7

Just slightly similar.  And during his 1 year at Syracuse, Anthony was known as a so-so post player who mostly got by on physical dominance - his jump shot was also very streaky.  Most people don't realize he played by far his best ball of his life during the NCAAs that year, and quite a bit of that came from hard work and gaining the confidence and basketball IQ to use his physical advantages.  Despite the flaws in his game, he is a far superior player now than he was then, but his great tourney in college and lack of success in the NBA tend to cloud that and make it seem like he's been treading water since then.  Remember, this is a guy who was a totally unknown 6 foot nothing point guard until he hit a huge growth spurt his junior year of high school - regaining coordination over a new body like that takes quite a bit of time and, yes, work.

The analogy's not perfect, but the numbers are very similar and the attitude definitely is.  I just hate seeing the usual suspects pile on without knowing anything about the guy, or realizing that a lack of playoff success doesn't mean a player is lazy and will never succeed.

sicne you both put out posts, i'll respond to them sepratly.

what your missing here is the crux of the argument. no one is saying anthony isn't very good, espically on offense. I think he's a fine second player on a good team. He lacks the desier to be great. I already said melo is a great offensive guy. you just proved he's a great offensive guy. not real sure what your point was.

my point was that he hasen't worked to improve his skill set outside offense, something that saying he has and then comparing him to a 23 year old pierce has no bearing on, all it does is prove they were both good offensive players at 23. considering i said melo is a great offensive player, and always has been, i fail to see what im supposed to take away from that set up to change my opnion.

as to his work ethic, i dunno, getting arrested for a DWI during a playoff run, not wanting to work for his spot on this team, takign a swing at a 5'10 guy and getting himself suspended for half a season, his complete lack of address to his biggest flaw, namely defense, and the complete lack of stories about him working on anything other than scoring, all those speak to me, as well as karl calling his team out over, and over, and over again for not playing defense, yet no one on that team seems to care that they give up 107 points a night..

 
“I will hurt you for this. A day will come when you think you’re safe and happy and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth. And you will know the debt is paid.” – Tyrion

Re: Melo's problem in a nutshell
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2008, 02:13:18 PM »

Offline crownsy

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<Snip>

you could say that, it would be unture, but you could say it.
<snip>

If he gave a [dang] about his game, AT ALL, he'd already be able to play better defense and handel better. but he doesn't seem to care. He's content with being a great scorer, which he no doubt is.
<snip>

Um...so Anthony hasn't shown much defensively up to this point in his career, is somewhat turnover prone, and focuses too much on scoring, and these are ways that he's DIFFERENT from a young Paul Pierce? 

  Pierce was a good defender when he came into the league.

wish someone had told paul that.

What i remeber is a big, athletic kid who was capable fo solid defense, but often got lost.

He worked on it, and now its better. another road where him and melo started close tot he same spot, but have veered off since. melo could be a great defender, if he wanted to be, but he doesn't apperntly.
“I will hurt you for this. A day will come when you think you’re safe and happy and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth. And you will know the debt is paid.” – Tyrion

Re: Melo's problem in a nutshell
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2008, 02:14:42 PM »

Offline crownsy

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I'm sorry, where are the reports of Melo's lack of work ethic? People's preconceived notions are hilarious. "Other than his rebounding, he's the same player as his sophomore year."

Okay, well other than three point shooting, Ray Allen isn't as potent of a scorer. See how easy that is? Carmelo is an elite rebounder and scorer at his position, how many other players in the league can say that?

Has he been out of the first round? No. But how many players can say they were the best player on a Western Conference 
He's really one dimensional. His 3 point shooting percentage went up to a solid 35% from 27% his sophomore year. Must be from all the work he doesn't put into his game in the offseason.

Bbbut you don't get it, he has TATTOOS.  Several of them.  And he was in the background of a street DVD looking awkward.  Therefore, lazy thug.  QED.

its more the DWI, punching a player and running like a school girl, and pot (supposedly former, to be fair) that makes me think of him as immature, but if you want to go with tatto's, thats your call.

and again, not sure why this effects the argument i made in any way, shape, or form, since i already proposed that maturity doesn't nessacrily equal work ethic with regardes to basketball, as pierce showed.

another attempt trying to defelct the main criticiszm?
“I will hurt you for this. A day will come when you think you’re safe and happy and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth. And you will know the debt is paid.” – Tyrion

Re: Melo's problem in a nutshell
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2008, 02:18:18 PM »

Offline soap07

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its more the DWI, punching a player and running like a school girl, and pot (supposedly former, to be fair) that makes me think of him as immature, but if you want to go with tatto's, thats your call.


Is James Posey a thug?

Re: Melo's problem in a nutshell
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2008, 02:19:16 PM »

Offline Jon

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I've never liked Melo.  Pierce has always been a better outside shooter, defender, and passer than Melo and is probably is equal in terms of scoring, dribbling, and rebounding. 

All that aside, the most [dang]ing thing about him is that he's pretty much always played with a decent team.  This year he played with the former Defensive Player of the year in Camby, a former MVP in Iverson, and a former All Star in Kenyon Martin and he could still only muster up a quick first round exit to the Lakers.  And in that series against the hapless L.A. defense, he only managed to shoot 36% from the floor.  Pierce even with poor teams always had a knack for the big game. 

If Carmelo Anthony was really the top player that many say he is, he'd be able to do more with the talent around him. 

Re: Melo's problem in a nutshell
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2008, 02:21:09 PM »

Offline crownsy

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I'm sorry, where are the reports of Melo's lack of work ethic? People's preconceived notions are hilarious. "Other than his rebounding, he's the same player as his sophomore year."

Okay, well other than three point shooting, Ray Allen isn't as potent of a scorer. See how easy that is? Carmelo is an elite rebounder and scorer at his position, how many other players in the league can say that?

Has he been out of the first round? No. But how many players can say they were the best player on a Western Conference 
He's really one dimensional. His 3 point shooting percentage went up to a solid 35% from 27% his sophomore year. Must be from all the work he doesn't put into his game in the offseason.

now to this post.

again, i liek how it tries to use his offensive prowess as proof he has a great work ethic, i've always stipulated he's a great scorer. he's certainly an elite scorer, and a decent rebounder. I never questioned that in my assertions. I asked for proof on how he's improved his overall game since he came into the league. saying he's an elite scorer doesn't do that, he's been an elite scorer since his soph year.

again, at the end of your post you poitn to his break out year. thats great, so did I, and you pointed to his offensive numbers, which i already said were elite.

but, in your rush to bury anyone who proposes he's not achiving all he could, wheres your articles from nugget blogs talkign about him working on his passing? how about his defense, which his coach begs his entire team to work on?

If i say he's a great scorer who has no desire to improve his total game, qouting me offensive numbers and comparisions, which is all you've done here, does little to move me off my argument.

“I will hurt you for this. A day will come when you think you’re safe and happy and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth. And you will know the debt is paid.” – Tyrion

Re: Melo's problem in a nutshell
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2008, 02:23:38 PM »

Offline soap07

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its more the DWI, punching a player and running like a school girl, and pot (supposedly former, to be fair) that makes me think of him as immature, but if you want to go with tatto's, thats your call.

"Punching a player and running like a school girl" - or backing away after realizing what he did and not wanting to escalate the situation. He must be a thug.

Re: Melo's problem in a nutshell
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2008, 02:24:45 PM »

Offline soap07

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Excellent post, Roy.  It's a good thing Karl has Doug Moe next to him because the only way a team with the thugster and Anthony as their best players is going to win is if they average 150ppg.  Even then, they'll be less than a .500 team.  Camby was the only reason this team has made the playoffs the last two years.  He covered 2-3 positions defensively on every rotation.


This makes a ton of sense. What about Carmelo's first couple years in the league?

Re: Melo's problem in a nutshell
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2008, 02:25:07 PM »

Offline crownsy

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its more the DWI, punching a player and running like a school girl, and pot (supposedly former, to be fair) that makes me think of him as immature, but if you want to go with tatto's, thats your call.


Is James Posey a thug?

way to only qoute the part of the post you think you can attack, and not the rest of it.

you guys brought the thug thing in so that you could then turn it around and use it to defend him, I've never stipulated his immaturity is realated to anything other than age, and made allowances for it.

awnser my  question, which you decided not to qoute. why is this relevant to the discussion of his desire to work on his total game when i already allowed that maturity isn't a barrier to working on your overall game? (see: pierce, paul) you brought in the "you hate him because he's a thug" i said that wasen't the case, and now your hammering on the issue you brought up because you don't have an awesnser for the question posed.

“I will hurt you for this. A day will come when you think you’re safe and happy and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth. And you will know the debt is paid.” – Tyrion