2021 Historical Draft: How Does My Team Look?

[gouki88]

The Memphis Grizzlies through 11 rounds:

Isaiah Thomas / Mo Cheeks
Kobe Bryant / Manu Ginobili
Ron Artest / Paul Pressey
Andrei Kirilenko / Brad Miller
Artis Gilmore / Dan Issel / Wayne Embry

I’m going to start IT next to Kobe. I’m using Kobe from when he played with Shaq - he knew how to share the ball, and he knew that he, like everybody else, couldn’t do it alone to win. I don’t think there’s any pairing that can come close to that one offensively. People might come after IT defensively, but I view him as no worse on that end than Nash, especially when IT is playing next to guys like Artest, AK47, Kobe, Gilmore, Pressey & maybe even Cheeks in certain lineups.
Not many teams can boast an efficient 59PPG back-court.

Artest moves into the starting lineup as he’s a better defender than Pressey (DPOY vs All-Defensive 1st team) and a better 3 point shooter. He thrived alongside Kobe in real life, and he forms one of the most formidable defensive trios in the competition in the front-court.

My bench is built around Manu. Cheeks & Pressey are both selfless, pass-first elite defenders who knew what it took to win, Miller is a great all-round stretch big and Issel is a powerful skilled monster.

Embry was a great old-school big man. Powerful, elite rebounder, went toe to toe with some of the GOATs. Does any other team have 3 HOF centres?

This team can go all defence with Cheeks-Kobe-Artest-AK-Gilmore, or all offence with IT-Manu-Kobe-Issel-Gilmore, as matchups dictate.

What are peoples thoughts?

[Moranis]

Raptors through 13

PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50

The Raptors added two very classic 3 and D wings to the roster today in Raja Bell and Robert Covington.  We now have an incredible small ball defensive lineup with Buse, Cooper, Bell, Covington, and Wallace.  5 absolutely nasty defenders and 4 of which are good to elite 3 point shooters around the 4 time DPOY manning the middle. 

[RPGenerate]

The Memphis Grizzlies through 11 rounds:

Isaiah Thomas / Mo Cheeks
Kobe Bryant / Manu Ginobili
Ron Artest / Paul Pressey
Andrei Kirilenko / Brad Miller
Artis Gilmore / Dan Issel / Wayne Embry

I’m going to start IT next to Kobe. I’m using Kobe from when he played with Shaq - he knew how to share the ball, and he knew that he, like everybody else, couldn’t do it alone to win. I don’t think there’s any pairing that can come close to that one offensively. People might come after IT defensively, but I view him as no worse on that end than Nash, especially when IT is playing next to guys like Artest, AK47, Kobe, Gilmore, Pressey & maybe even Cheeks in certain lineups.
Not many teams can boast an efficient 59PPG back-court.

Artest moves into the starting lineup as he’s a better defender than Pressey (DPOY vs All-Defensive 1st team) and a better 3 point shooter. He thrived alongside Kobe in real life, and he forms one of the most formidable defensive trios in the competition in the front-court.

My bench is built around Manu. Cheeks & Pressey are both selfless, pass-first elite defenders who knew what it took to win, Miller is a great all-round stretch big and Issel is a powerful skilled monster.

Embry was a great old-school big man. Powerful, elite rebounder, went toe to toe with some of the GOATs. Does any other team have 3 HOF centres?

This team can go all defence with Cheeks-Kobe-Artest-AK-Gilmore, or all offence with IT-Manu-Kobe-Issel-Gilmore, as matchups dictate.

What are peoples thoughts?

I'm glad you moved Manu back to his natural position. I like the team much better that way.

For PG, I'm not sure what to make of Isaiah Thomas starting. Sure, he's was an offensive force, but he's also a huge disadvantage on defense to the point where I'm not sure he'll survive with the level of talent in this league. I'll have to think on it, but I might like Cheeks better as a starter.

Ron Artest and Kobe wing lineup is great on defense, but I do question how well they fit together, especially if you're choosing Artest's prime years. He was quite ball dominant, and he wasn't very useful off the ball because of his inconsistent outside shot. I remember picking Artest in a previous draft, and I got similar criticism.

That stuff may seem like nitpicking, because after that I think the team looks great all around.

[nickagneta]

The Phoenix Suns

PG: Tony Parker/Norm Van Lier/J.J. Redick
SG: Clyde Drexler/Devin Booker
SF: Danny Granger/Hedo Turkoglu/Tayshaun Prince
PF: Giannis Antetokounmpo/ Anthony Mason/Bob Love
C: DeAndre Jordan/Carlos Boozer

The starters will be those listed right after the position above but who gets used off the bench will be determined, in large part, to matchups, due to the exceptional strength and versatility the team has on its bench. The exception being Devin Booker who is the 6th man and will see big minutes.

Expect to see a bunch of small ball in a death lineup with Giannis at center, but also a three point barrage lineup and a rough and tumble old school lineup when needed. Know that this team will not go with an all bench 2nd team. Expect Clyde or the Freak on the floor at all times.

I will be choosing my years and posting those stats after we stop drafting tomorrow.

[Darth_Yoda]

The San Antonio Spurs

PG: Kyle Lowry / Mookie Blaylock / Mark Jackson
SG: Reggie Miller / Jeff Hornacek
SF: George Gervin / George McGinnis / Kyle Korver
PF Connie Hawkins / Serge Ibaka
C: Clint Capela / Bill Laimbeer / Jusuf Nurkic

Liking my team alot, for the 10th pick I think I have built a team that is pretty well rounded.

I can go small
I can go big
I can shoot the ball to bust zones
I can play make from every position
I can play half court
I can play 7 seconds or less.

But just because I like my team doesn't mean I wont trade them all.

[Who]

The Memphis Grizzlies through 11 rounds:

Isaiah Thomas / Mo Cheeks
Kobe Bryant / Manu Ginobili
Ron Artest / Paul Pressey
Andrei Kirilenko / Brad Miller
Artis Gilmore / Dan Issel / Wayne Embry

I’m going to start IT next to Kobe. I’m using Kobe from when he played with Shaq - he knew how to share the ball, and he knew that he, like everybody else, couldn’t do it alone to win. I don’t think there’s any pairing that can come close to that one offensively. People might come after IT defensively, but I view him as no worse on that end than Nash, especially when IT is playing next to guys like Artest, AK47, Kobe, Gilmore, Pressey & maybe even Cheeks in certain lineups.
Not many teams can boast an efficient 59PPG back-court.

Artest moves into the starting lineup as he’s a better defender than Pressey (DPOY vs All-Defensive 1st team) and a better 3 point shooter. He thrived alongside Kobe in real life, and he forms one of the most formidable defensive trios in the competition in the front-court.

My bench is built around Manu. Cheeks & Pressey are both selfless, pass-first elite defenders who knew what it took to win, Miller is a great all-round stretch big and Issel is a powerful skilled monster.

Embry was a great old-school big man. Powerful, elite rebounder, went toe to toe with some of the GOATs. Does any other team have 3 HOF centres?

This team can go all defence with Cheeks-Kobe-Artest-AK-Gilmore, or all offence with IT-Manu-Kobe-Issel-Gilmore, as matchups dictate.

What are peoples thoughts?

I'm glad you moved Manu back to his natural position. I like the team much better that way.

For PG, I'm not sure what to make of Isaiah Thomas starting. Sure, he's was an offensive force, but he's also a huge disadvantage on defense to the point where I'm not sure he'll survive with the level of talent in this league. I'll have to think on it, but I might like Cheeks better as a starter.

Ron Artest and Kobe wing lineup is great on defense, but I do question how well they fit together, especially if you're choosing Artest's prime years. He was quite ball dominant, and he wasn't very useful off the ball because of his inconsistent outside shot. I remember picking Artest in a previous draft, and I got similar criticism.

That stuff may seem like nitpicking, because after that I think the team looks great all around.

That was mostly me. Some others had milder concerns with Artest but none as severe as mine.

I don't like how Artest played with Kobe in LAL. I hate how Artest played in that Triangle offense. He was a disaster. That offense requires quick decision making. Pass, dribble or shoot. Just decide quickly and move. Artest couldn't handle. He is just too slow - mentally slow.

He is ponderous on the ball and stalls his team's offense. He kills ball movement. He causes stagnant offenses. Artest makes up for some of this with good individual skill-level.

However, in a league like this Historical League where you have so much talent all over your team (scorers everywhere) - I believe the cost of bad team offense to weigh even greater here and that his individual skill level weighs less given the abundance of alternative scorers on every team. 

My opinion on Artest is extreme compares to others ... but that is how I see him. Offensively speaking. Defensively he is awesome.

Note: The Lakers offense was better with Ariza than Artest and this was when Ariza could barely even make a jump-shot. Just quick decisions and cutting. Some transition offense. Limited handles and passing. Artest was so much more skilled than Ariza but the offense got worse. Artest is one of those guys who looks better offensively on bad teams (where everything can slow down and revolve around him) than he does on good teams (where he has to fit around other's talents).

[gouki88]

The Memphis Grizzlies through 11 rounds:

Isaiah Thomas / Mo Cheeks
Kobe Bryant / Manu Ginobili
Ron Artest / Paul Pressey
Andrei Kirilenko / Brad Miller
Artis Gilmore / Dan Issel / Wayne Embry

I’m going to start IT next to Kobe. I’m using Kobe from when he played with Shaq - he knew how to share the ball, and he knew that he, like everybody else, couldn’t do it alone to win. I don’t think there’s any pairing that can come close to that one offensively. People might come after IT defensively, but I view him as no worse on that end than Nash, especially when IT is playing next to guys like Artest, AK47, Kobe, Gilmore, Pressey & maybe even Cheeks in certain lineups.
Not many teams can boast an efficient 59PPG back-court.

Artest moves into the starting lineup as he’s a better defender than Pressey (DPOY vs All-Defensive 1st team) and a better 3 point shooter. He thrived alongside Kobe in real life, and he forms one of the most formidable defensive trios in the competition in the front-court.

My bench is built around Manu. Cheeks & Pressey are both selfless, pass-first elite defenders who knew what it took to win, Miller is a great all-round stretch big and Issel is a powerful skilled monster.

Embry was a great old-school big man. Powerful, elite rebounder, went toe to toe with some of the GOATs. Does any other team have 3 HOF centres?

This team can go all defence with Cheeks-Kobe-Artest-AK-Gilmore, or all offence with IT-Manu-Kobe-Issel-Gilmore, as matchups dictate.

What are peoples thoughts?

I'm glad you moved Manu back to his natural position. I like the team much better that way.

For PG, I'm not sure what to make of Isaiah Thomas starting. Sure, he's was an offensive force, but he's also a huge disadvantage on defense to the point where I'm not sure he'll survive with the level of talent in this league. I'll have to think on it, but I might like Cheeks better as a starter.

Ron Artest and Kobe wing lineup is great on defense, but I do question how well they fit together, especially if you're choosing Artest's prime years. He was quite ball dominant, and he wasn't very useful off the ball because of his inconsistent outside shot. I remember picking Artest in a previous draft, and I got similar criticism.

That stuff may seem like nitpicking, because after that I think the team looks great all around.

That was mostly me. Some others had milder concerns with Artest but none as severe as mine.

I don't like how Artest played with Kobe in LAL. I hate how Artest played in that Triangle offense. He was a disaster. That offense requires quick decision making. Pass, dribble or shoot. Just decide quickly and move. Artest couldn't handle. He is just too slow - mentally slow.

He is ponderous on the ball and stalls his team's offense. He kills ball movement. He causes stagnant offenses. Artest makes up for some of this with good individual skill-level.

However, in a league like this Historical League where you have so much talent all over your team (scorers everywhere) - I believe the cost of bad team offense to weigh even greater here and that his individual skill level weighs less given the abundance of alternative scorers on every team. 

My opinion on Artest is extreme compares to others ... but that is how I see him. Offensively speaking. Defensively he is awesome.

Note: The Lakers offense was better with Ariza than Artest and this was when Ariza could barely even make a jump-shot. Just quick decisions and cutting. Some transition offense. Limited handles and passing. Artest was so much more skilled than Ariza but the offense got worse. Artest is one of those guys who looks better offensively on bad teams (where everything can slow down and revolve around him) than he does on good teams (where he has to fit around other's talents).

While there’s definitely a lot for me to consider in this post, and nothing is finalised, I don’t think that Artest is as much of an issue offensively as you say. He was a 1b option at most (more like a #2 option) in his best year on a 60 win team that made the Conference Finals.
Sure, in Sacramento what you describe might be true. But Artest was contributing to wins in Indiana with good talents around him like O’Neal, an old Miller and someone else (eligible to be drafted in the game).


I don’t think he’s that catastrophic for team offence, but again nothing is finalised

[Who]

I had Artest ranked just outside the starters for this game when it started. The guy is an asset. He is a top defensive player regardless of his offense. I just do not rate his offense well.

-----------------------------

That 2004 Indiana team is an interesting team to look at outside of Artest. They were a bad offensive group. They relied hugely on their defense to carry them to wins. Artest and Jermaine O'Neal their main actors but they also got good contributions from several others and had excellent coaching.

A couple of things stand out about that team:

(1) Jermaine O'Neal deserves more criticism than Artest for bad team offense on that Pacers team. He was a non-passer who jacked a huge number of shots and had below average efficiency. His over-aggressive shot-taking and willingness to settle for low efficiency (contested) shots badly hurt their team's offense.

It was why I drafted Vlade Divac over Jermaine when filling out my starting lineup + is the reason why I still wonder if I should have taken Vucevic over JO who I had ranked above JO but I was seduced by JO's athleticism and defensive chops as something different to my big man rotation.

(2) Ron Artest generally struggled offensively on those Pacers teams except when he was in the 2nd unit when Carlisle ran the team's offense through Artest in the low post while Jermaine O'Neal rested. Artest was often on the fringes of the game offensively when both were on the floor.

(3) Reggie Miller had the worst scoring seasons of his career when JO and Artest were the top two scoring options because they killed the team's ball movement. Miller's scoring pumped back up when injuries and suspensions removed JO and Artest from the mix. The offense was so stagnant and so little ball movement that one of the greatest shooters and team offense SGs of his era only had a minor impact out there.

[Somebody]

Houston Rockets roster after 13 rounds:

PG: Terry Porter, Gus Williams, Calvin Murphy
SG: Jimmy Butler, Richie Guerin, Hal Greer
SF: Bob Dandridge, Cliff Hagan, Richard Jefferson
PF: Draymond Green, Larry Kenon
C: Rudy Gobert, Domantas Sabonis, Neil Johnston

[gouki88]

I had Artest ranked just outside the starters for this game when it started. The guy is an asset. He is a top defensive player regardless of his offense. I just do not rate his offense well.

-----------------------------

That 2004 Indiana team is an interesting team to look at outside of Artest. They were a bad offensive group. They relied hugely on their defense to carry them to wins. Artest and Jermaine O'Neal their main actors but they also got good contributions from several others and had excellent coaching.

A couple of things stand out about that team:

(1) Jermaine O'Neal deserves more criticism than Artest for bad team offense on that Pacers team. He was a non-passer who jacked a huge number of shots and had below average efficiency. His over-aggressive shot-taking and willingness to settle for low efficiency (contested) shots badly hurt their team's offense.

It was why I drafted Vlade Divac over Jermaine when filling out my starting lineup + is the reason why I still wonder if I should have taken Vucevic over JO who I had ranked above JO but I was seduced by JO's athleticism and defensive chops as something different to my big man rotation.

(2) Ron Artest generally struggled offensively on those Pacers teams except when he was in the 2nd unit when Carlisle ran the team's offense through Artest in the low post while Jermaine O'Neal rested. Artest was often on the fringes of the game offensively when both were on the floor.

(3) Reggie Miller had the worst scoring seasons of his career when JO and Artest were the top two scoring options because they killed the team's ball movement. Miller's scoring pumped back up when injuries and suspensions removed JO and Artest from the mix. The offense was so stagnant and so little ball movement that one of the greatest shooters and team offense SGs of his era only had a minor impact out there.

The point about Artest thriving with the 2nd unit is definitely one I’ll be considering. Quite a lot actually. Given the defensive nous of Pressey, and how selfless he was (as well as being someone to keep the ball moving between Kobe & IT, he might get the nod.

Hmm....

[Darth_Yoda]

Houston Rockets roster after 13 rounds:

PG: Terry Porter, Gus Williams
SG: Jimmy Butler, Richie Guerin, Hal Greer
SF: Bob Dandridge, Cliff Hagan, Richard Jefferson
PF: Draymond Green, Larry Kenon
C: Rudy Gobert, Domantas Sabonis, Neil Johnston

Richie Guerin was a great get for you. Dude could score. Is a great addition to your 2nd unit.

[Somebody]

Houston Rockets roster after 13 rounds:

PG: Terry Porter, Gus Williams
SG: Jimmy Butler, Richie Guerin, Hal Greer
SF: Bob Dandridge, Cliff Hagan, Richard Jefferson
PF: Draymond Green, Larry Kenon
C: Rudy Gobert, Domantas Sabonis, Neil Johnston

Richie Guerin was a great get for you. Dude could score. Is a great addition to your 2nd unit.

Yeah I missed out on him while I was scouting before the draft and I couldn't believe how modern his game looked: he was doing hesitations and advanced guard moves that wouldn't look out of place today. He was also a spectacular passer (his passing really stood out to me, he was slinging high leverage passes like one of the passing greats out there) besides pressuring defences with his scoring.

[Roy H.]

Houston Rockets roster after 13 rounds:

PG: Terry Porter, Gus Williams
SG: Jimmy Butler, Richie Guerin, Hal Greer
SF: Bob Dandridge, Cliff Hagan, Richard Jefferson
PF: Draymond Green, Larry Kenon
C: Rudy Gobert, Domantas Sabonis, Neil Johnston

Richie Guerin was a great get for you. Dude could score. Is a great addition to your 2nd unit.

Yeah I missed out on him while I was scouting before the draft and I couldn't believe how modern his game looked: he was doing hesitations and advanced guard moves that wouldn't look out of place today. He was also a spectacular passer (his passing really stood out to me, he was slinging high leverage passes like one of the passing greats out there) besides pressuring defences with his scoring.

Better than Hal Greer?  I noticed you bumped Greer down in your depth chart.

[nickagneta]

Houston Rockets roster after 13 rounds:

PG: Terry Porter, Gus Williams
SG: Jimmy Butler, Richie Guerin, Hal Greer
SF: Bob Dandridge, Cliff Hagan, Richard Jefferson
PF: Draymond Green, Larry Kenon
C: Rudy Gobert, Domantas Sabonis, Neil Johnston

Richie Guerin was a great get for you. Dude could score. Is a great addition to your 2nd unit.

Yeah I missed out on him while I was scouting before the draft and I couldn't believe how modern his game looked: he was doing hesitations and advanced guard moves that wouldn't look out of place today. He was also a spectacular passer (his passing really stood out to me, he was slinging high leverage passes like one of the passing greats out there) besides pressuring defences with his scoring.

Better than Hal Greer?  I noticed you bumped Greer down in your depth chart.

Hal Greer is probably the best SG on that roster. Yes, better than Jimmy Butler.

[Moranis]

Houston Rockets roster after 13 rounds:

PG: Terry Porter, Gus Williams
SG: Jimmy Butler, Richie Guerin, Hal Greer
SF: Bob Dandridge, Cliff Hagan, Richard Jefferson
PF: Draymond Green, Larry Kenon
C: Rudy Gobert, Domantas Sabonis, Neil Johnston

Richie Guerin was a great get for you. Dude could score. Is a great addition to your 2nd unit.

Yeah I missed out on him while I was scouting before the draft and I couldn't believe how modern his game looked: he was doing hesitations and advanced guard moves that wouldn't look out of place today. He was also a spectacular passer (his passing really stood out to me, he was slinging high leverage passes like one of the passing greats out there) besides pressuring defences with his scoring.

Better than Hal Greer?  I noticed you bumped Greer down in your depth chart.

I personally think Greer was the better player.  Guerin always struck me like a stat stuffer on a bad team (those Knicks teams were terrible).  Once Guerin went to St. Louis and was moved way down the depth chart, he took a huge fall statistically.  Greer was a great player and I just don't think you could say the same about Guerin.  I mean Greer was the 2nd best player on one of the 5 greatest seasons in league history.  And even after Wilt left, Greer at 32 was the anchor of a 55 win Sixers team (that was still a playoff team for several years thereafter as Greer aged)