Author Topic: Is Marcus Smart's Defense Good?  (Read 2521 times)

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Re: Is Marcus Smart's Defense Good?
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2020, 04:45:24 AM »

Offline gouki88

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No player in history has locked down his opponent in every game.  It doesn’t happen at the NBA level.

I don’t know, I think OP’s logic is irrefutable: three opposing guards in 4 seasons had set career highs in games in which Smart played. If that doesn’t prove his defense is overrated, what does?
Rofl
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PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
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Re: Is Marcus Smart's Defense Good?
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2020, 08:34:41 AM »

Offline Moranis

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The problem with Marcus Smart is on the other end of the floor.
First time I've heard that a slight positive on offence is a problem :laugh:
Eh.  Some nights he’s a positive, others he’s a negative. The offense occasionally is so bad that it negates the positive defense.
Eh he's a positive in the long run on good teams. Occasional stinkers don't worry me that much when he's usually a slight positive with the upside of having an amazing offensive night to more than balance those bad games out (he's our record holder for most threes in a game iirc, here's an example of Smart getting really hot lol).
any 3 Smart takes is a bad shot because it means the better and more consistent shooters aren't taking them.  Of the rotation, Smart is either at the bottom or very close to it on the team in all of the major offensive efficiency categories i.e. TS%, FTr, TRB%, TOV%, OWS, OBPM, etc.  He is a terrible offensive player.  Absolutely awful.  He'd be a lot better if he only shot 2 or so 3's a game.  That would help a great deal.  But his poor decision making is a problem, both in his inability to not shoot and his high turnover rate.  His offense is a really big problem, especially when you consider how much more important offense is to winning than defense is.  The team is better with Smart on the floor (about 1.3 points per 100 possessions), but it isn't like they are a lot better, and I do wonder if a much better and more consistent offensive player might have more of an impact on the scoreboard than Smart does.  And I'm just talking about a Lou Williams type player, not even a more balanced 2-way type player like a Robert Covington. 
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Re: Is Marcus Smart's Defense Good?
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2020, 08:43:56 AM »

Offline Somebody

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The problem with Marcus Smart is on the other end of the floor.
First time I've heard that a slight positive on offence is a problem :laugh:
Eh.  Some nights he’s a positive, others he’s a negative. The offense occasionally is so bad that it negates the positive defense.
Eh he's a positive in the long run on good teams. Occasional stinkers don't worry me that much when he's usually a slight positive with the upside of having an amazing offensive night to more than balance those bad games out (he's our record holder for most threes in a game iirc, here's an example of Smart getting really hot lol).
any 3 Smart takes is a bad shot because it means the better and more consistent shooters aren't taking them.  Of the rotation, Smart is either at the bottom or very close to it on the team in all of the major offensive efficiency categories i.e. TS%, FTr, TRB%, TOV%, OWS, OBPM, etc.  He is a terrible offensive player.  Absolutely awful.  He'd be a lot better if he only shot 2 or so 3's a game.  That would help a great deal.  But his poor decision making is a problem, both in his inability to not shoot and his high turnover rate.  His offense is a really big problem, especially when you consider how much more important offense is to winning than defense is.  The team is better with Smart on the floor (about 1.3 points per 100 possessions), but it isn't like they are a lot better, and I do wonder if a much better and more consistent offensive player might have more of an impact on the scoreboard than Smart does.  And I'm just talking about a Lou Williams type player, not even a more balanced 2-way type player like a Robert Covington.
Aaaaaand most threes that Smart takes when our stars aren't crapping the bed are created by the aforementioned players, they take nothing away from our stars, in fact they add value to our offence by having a competent volume three point threat out there. Smart's TS% and eFG% is dragged down by his poor two-point shooting that mainly arises when he's forced to create, 35-36% three point shooting on roughly 6 attempts per game is perfectly fine for an off-ball guard while Smart's TOV% is acceptable with how many high leverage passes he finds whenever he has the ball, those spikes he throws are well worth the increased risk of turning the ball over. As for OWS and OBPM, those are box metrics that heavily favour players who are good on-ball engines and Smart isn't that. Better metrics like ORAPM, ORPM, O-RAPTOR and OPIPM all rate Smart as a net neutral or a slight positive for us.

Also not going to get into your ridiculous belief that offence is somehow magnitudes more important than defence when most statistical and analytical (latter is eye-test driven) evidence suggests that it's roughly a 60/40 spread in favour of offence :laugh:
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Re: Is Marcus Smart's Defense Good?
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2020, 09:18:27 AM »

Online DefenseWinsChamps

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There is a legit question here:  despite his propensity to make big plays, is Marcus a bit overrated on a play to play basis? 

I don’t think you find the answer to that in anecdotes or individual game performances. Rather, it makes sense to look at the entire season:

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-overall/?sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=-1&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=GP*GE*40:PLAYER_NAME*E*&StarterBench=Starters

That’s just looking at starters who played 40 games last year.  By FG% differential, Marcus was excellent (29th) but ranked behind perimeter players like Jrue Holiday, Gary Harris, Avery Bradley and several others.  He’s nowhere close to the dominant big man defenders, like Giannis and Gobert.

FG% differential isn’t the end all and be all, but it helps answer the OP’s question.

Thanks for doing the legwork on this. It seems like most people read the title not the post. Otherwise I think they would see that I think his defense is all-NBA worthy. But these stats were essentially where I was going. Perhaps his on-ball defense, particularly against perimeter players, isn't dominant.

Re: Is Marcus Smart's Defense Good?
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2020, 09:35:52 AM »

Offline gouki88

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There is a legit question here:  despite his propensity to make big plays, is Marcus a bit overrated on a play to play basis? 

I don’t think you find the answer to that in anecdotes or individual game performances. Rather, it makes sense to look at the entire season:

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-overall/?sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=-1&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=GP*GE*40:PLAYER_NAME*E*&StarterBench=Starters

That’s just looking at starters who played 40 games last year.  By FG% differential, Marcus was excellent (29th) but ranked behind perimeter players like Jrue Holiday, Gary Harris, Avery Bradley and several others.  He’s nowhere close to the dominant big man defenders, like Giannis and Gobert.

FG% differential isn’t the end all and be all, but it helps answer the OP’s question.

Thanks for doing the legwork on this. It seems like most people read the title not the post. Otherwise I think they would see that I think his defense is all-NBA worthy. But these stats were essentially where I was going. Perhaps his on-ball defense, particularly against perimeter players, isn't dominant.
Maybe, but I don't think that on-ball perimeter defence is all that valuable in today's NBA. Given how team-oriented defence is and how modern NBA offences obsess over exploiting the weaknesses of other teams, I think versatility and the ability to quarterback a team defence is much more important than individual perimeter defence.

It's why Smart is in DPOY talks while Gary Harris, Avery Bradley, Norman Powell and the like aren't even really in All-Defensive talks
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PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Is Marcus Smart's Defense Good?
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2020, 09:40:29 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Every day and TWICE.....not once but TWICE - on Sundays.

Doesn't mean he won't get torched every now and then - ala Tyler Herro.

I feel more comfortable the longer he's on the floor, though.

His play has blossomed as of late with his OFFENSE, key shooting, key PLAYS.....

I love Marcus Smart.

Boy if we could EVER get a defensive Big (Stifle Tower, French Rejection), our defense will leap off the charts, just watch.

Re: Is Marcus Smart's Defense Good?
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2020, 10:02:11 AM »

Offline td450

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He does have a weakness. He just doesn't have the same burst that most NBA points have. When he faces a quicker shifty guard who can also shoot, they have little trouble creating space against him, or going by him. There are quite a few of those.

There are a number of other players in the league that are considerably better at maintaining on ball pressure on these types of players. Avery Bradley was one of the best we've seen at this. Jaylen is far better at this than Marcus.

At almost everything else on defense, he's elite.