Celtics (38-9) at Pistons (25-19) 1/30

[Fafnir]

I Like powe...I dont like his play as of late, thats all
None of his rebounds stick out to me tonight either... but yeah 7 in 11 is good, everyting else was bad

And the reason it may seem like I  dislike powe is because Im the only one whos critical of him, meanwhile everyone else is always critical of baby while always giving leon a break, i try to stray from the norm I guess...Its obvious the coaching staff agrees though

Maybe you went to the kitchen in those 11 minutes?! He got so many so fast it would have been easy to miss.

Powe has been playing offensively very poor the last few weeks, but he is averaging at career levels in almost every single category. He is shooting about 50% from the floor and plays very hard out there. The guy never complains, and is dependable. BBD on the other hand has many of his stat categories down, especially his shooting %, and is playing more minutes to keep his points and rebounds at the same levels as last year. I think he has been playing better this last few weeks than earlier in the year, but let's not over do it.

In almost 2 minutes a game more, BBD is averaging 25% less points, almost 1 full rebound less, and shooting about 10% worse fg% than Powe is. He is also committing more fouls. I think the numbers are pretty clear why people are harder on BBD. If he keeps his recent trend up, then that gap should shrink, however it is pretty obvious why people like Powe. It's very easy to like a guy who is 100% devoted to being as good as he can and much tougher to get behind a guy that is wasting potential due to poor off the court eating habits...

Too bad Powe is offensive stagnation and/or bad turnovers lately. Not sure why but he just hasn't been playing well at all lately. He's still rebounding but that is about it.

[TatteredOnMySleeve]

I Like powe...I dont like his play as of late, thats all
None of his rebounds stick out to me tonight either... but yeah 7 in 11 is good, everyting else was bad

And the reason it may seem like I  dislike powe is because Im the only one whos critical of him, meanwhile everyone else is always critical of baby while always giving leon a break, i try to stray from the norm I guess...Its obvious the coaching staff agrees though

Maybe you went to the kitchen in those 11 minutes?! He got so many so fast it would have been easy to miss.

Powe has been playing offensively very poor the last few weeks, but he is averaging at career levels in almost every single category. He is shooting about 50% from the floor and plays very hard out there. The guy never complains, and is dependable. BBD on the other hand has many of his stat categories down, especially his shooting %, and is playing more minutes to keep his points and rebounds at the same levels as last year. I think he has been playing better this last few weeks than earlier in the year, but let's not over do it.

In almost 2 minutes a game more, BBD is averaging 25% less points, almost 1 full rebound less, and shooting about 10% worse fg% than Powe is. He is also committing more fouls. I think the numbers are pretty clear why people are harder on BBD. If he keeps his recent trend up, then that gap should shrink, however it is pretty obvious why people like Powe. It's very easy to like a guy who is 100% devoted to being as good as he can and much tougher to get behind a guy that is wasting potential due to poor off the court eating habits...

Powe is a stats guy, BBD is an essentials guy

[EJPLAYA]

No one disagreed that the past few weeks his offense has been less effective. Dismissing his ability to pull down boards at his size especially is definitely a slant based on your dislike. Even when he has been struggling lately on the offense end of the floor he has been a beast on the boards. We don't get those boards and some of those games are a different story. He leaves 100% out there, and has the ability to be a better offensive player than he is right now to go along with a work ethic to get him there.

As far as an "essentials guy" not sure what that is supposed to mean other than you trying to look away from the fact that his numbers are getting worse for the most part. He can't shoot from the outside, and with that ugly form his ceiling will remain average at best. He is a terrible low post scorer because of his size/weight/lack of leaping ability. (Two dunks in the past week though kind of surprised me though)

BBD is a "fun" player to watch because of doing things differently than most. He has a fun personality out there and is fun to root for. I like the guy but think he has severe limitations. I dislike his inability to keep the weight off. I hope he gets it right, however you don't have to tear down Powe to build BBD up.

[TatteredOnMySleeve]

See what I mean? BBD is a slouch who will remain average, Powe is an amazing worker, hustler, has an awesome offensive game, with a great work ethic to match.. sounds like favortism to me...hes been rebounding the ball well...other than that hes been putrid and his minutes are down because of it. "however you don't have to tear down Powe to build BBD up." then why is everyone constantly doing tearing down BBD to build up Powe? Powe doesnt have just as many limitations, if not more?


How about theyre both average players, and can be pretty good alongside KG, but terrible on the floor at the same time

[EJPLAYA]

See what I mean? BBD is a slouch who will remain average, Powe is an amazing worker, hustler, has an awesome offensive game, with a great work ethic to match.. sounds like favortism to me...hes been rebounding the ball well...other than that hes been putrid and his minutes are down because of it. "however you don't have to tear down Powe to build BBD up." then why is everyone constantly doing tearing down BBD to build up Powe? Powe doesnt have just as many limitations, if not more?


How about theyre both average players, and can be pretty good alongside KG, but terrible on the floor at the same time

You were the one who inserted BBD in all of this by whining about them complimenting Powe's 7 boards in 11 minutes saying he looked like he played a bit better than he had been (a negative comment by them about him) and not mentioning BBD's supposed "great game". I am sure they didn't mention each player and rave about them...

MY OPINION is that BBD is about as good as he will ever be based on some fundamental facts:

He is overweight and has been getting fatter since he was drafted. This shows a player who saw money and draft position as a necessity to be smarter about what he ate, but once he got on the team and got his money he was no longer interested in putting forth the great work required to maintain. This shows a lack of work ethic.

He has very ugly form to his jumper and even though he has hit a little better lately, like Rondo it can only take him so far. His percentage reflects that.

He is undersized DRAMATICALLY to play the center. The only reason he looks pretty good against the huge guys like Shaq is bulk. If he gets into better shape to be a better overall player then he will lose his ability to body up on these guys. If he doesn't then he will continue to be less effective against everyone else due to being slower and having less vertical.


THESE ARE FACTS!! I am not saying the guy is horrible. He is a nice 8-9th guy off the bench that can create some interesting mismatches. I love the guys energy out there. He does show a lot of deficiencies that need addressed and based on some things he can control, and some things he can't, I don't think he will be much better. Why is that such a far fetched statement?!

As far as Powe goes, here is why I like the guy:

He has an unbelievable work ethic and has fought through greater diversity to get to be where he is. This makes me respect him and feel like he will continue to work on his game.

 He keeps himself in impeccable shape and is very strong. This allows the undersized guy to rebound with some very big players. He has tremendous balance as he keeps a wide stance and boxes out well.

He has shown the ability to score very well on the low block, and although he has struggled with that lately, as done it on the biggest stage (NBA finals) filling in nicely for Perk and lighting them up. He knows how to draw fouls getting a lot of "and ones" throughout the past couple years.

Here are his deficiencies:

He does not have good shooting form outside and like BBD will likely never get better than average at best.

He is not as good of a free throw shooter as he should be which gives up a few points each game he should have.

He does not rotate as well as he should some games and picks up some fouls he shouldn't. Sometimes he gets too in love with taking the charge and if the refs aren't calling it our way it can hurt us.

Due to his size he doesn't pass out of the post as well as he should and sometimes stutters the offense.


Both of them have deficiencies or they would be starters in this league. I much prefer a guy who is committed to being in the best shape he can be, is a low post threat on the block, and rebounds well over what BBD brings to the table.

[Casperian]

MY OPINION is that BBD is about as good as he will ever be based on some fundamental facts:

He is overweight and has been getting fatter since he was drafted.

You`re saying that for one year now. You even made 3 threads about it. It´s still not true, imo. He`s in much better shape now compared to when he was drafted, and I´m not alone with that opinion.

He is undersized DRAMATICALLY to play the center. The only reason he looks pretty good against the huge guys like Shaq is bulk. If he gets into better shape to be a better overall player then he will lose his ability to body up on these guys. If he doesn't then he will continue to be less effective against everyone else due to being slower and having less vertical.

That´s also your argument for one year now, EJ. Surprisingly, BBD´s playing time increased since then, while Powe´s PT decreased. I`m starting to think that there´s another dimension to this debate that you just can´t grasp. His current skill-set is obviously good enough to earn him a spot as the first big on the bench of the NBA champions. As I already said back then, BBD should not lose his bulk, imo. He may be a better overall player with less fat, but that doesn´t necessarily mean that he´ll become a more efficient player for this team. I rather have him as our undersized Center, who is effective against guys like Shaq, Big Z and Howard, than as just another average Small Forward.

THESE ARE FACTS!!

No, it´s your opinion, and there are enough people on this board who disagree with you.

He has an unbelievable work ethic and has fought through greater diversity to get to be where he is. This makes me respect him and feel like he will continue to work on his game.

What do you know about BBD´s life before the NBA? Did you know about his drug-addicted Mom? BBD had to fight through a lot in his life, too. Maybe you should read this:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?section=magazine&id=3636177

[TatteredOnMySleeve]

I just find it funny how you tell me not to rip on leon to build BBD up, which I dont, Im just honest in saying whos playing better right now...yet all you do is rip down BBD to build up leon...irony

[EJPLAYA]

You're both wrong.  I was pointing out the pros and cons of each player, and then stating why I personally feel BBD has more upside based on some specific facts.

BBD is heavier than he was in the draft. That isn't debatable. He has easily gained 30-40 lbs since then. Even if we say that 10 lbs of it was added muscle, no one can truthfully say he hasn't put on a fair amount of fat.

The fact that he is undersized both in reach and height to play the center spot isn't debatable. Perk is even a little undersized, but his very long arms make up for it.

He has an ugly jumper that isn't typical shooting form. That is fact.

tattered- Not sure why you interestingly enough leave off the part where I was ripping Powe as well. I listed a big list of his deficiencies along with BBD's.


YOU WERE THE ONE WHO BROUGHT THE TWO TOGETHER IN THIS DISCUSSION!!!!

Then you don't want to compare them?! Maybe that's because your argument is based on potential alone, and mine is based on fact and statistics. I don't blame you for wanting to ignore them. They don't support your view.

[EJPLAYA]

MY OPINION is that BBD is about as good as he will ever be based on some fundamental facts:

He is overweight and has been getting fatter since he was drafted.

You`re saying that for one year now. You even made 3 threads about it. It´s still not true, imo. He`s in much better shape now compared to when he was drafted, and I´m not alone with that opinion.

He is undersized DRAMATICALLY to play the center. The only reason he looks pretty good against the huge guys like Shaq is bulk. If he gets into better shape to be a better overall player then he will lose his ability to body up on these guys. If he doesn't then he will continue to be less effective against everyone else due to being slower and having less vertical.

That´s also your argument for one year now, EJ. Surprisingly, BBD´s playing time increased since then, while Powe´s PT decreased. I`m starting to think that there´s another dimension to this debate that you just can´t grasp. His current skill-set is obviously good enough to earn him a spot as the first big on the bench of the NBA champions. As I already said back then, BBD should not lose his bulk, imo. He may be a better overall player with less fat, but that doesn´t necessarily mean that he´ll become a more efficient player for this team. I rather have him as our undersized Center, who is effective against guys like Shaq, Big Z and Howard, than as just another average Small Forward.

THESE ARE FACTS!!

No, it´s your opinion, and there are enough people on this board who disagree with you.

He has an unbelievable work ethic and has fought through greater diversity to get to be where he is. This makes me respect him and feel like he will continue to work on his game.

What do you know about BBD´s life before the NBA? Did you know about his drug-addicted Mom? BBD had to fight through a lot in his life, too. Maybe you should read this:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?section=magazine&id=3636177

Casperian, I am sorry that my maintaining my position, and not waffling back and forth like you often do,  offends you. You spent a whole post to say "You feel the same way today as you did a year ago"?!

That's nice. I am glad for BBD. Anyone who overcomes adversity in their life should be commended. It doesn't however make him any less fat, and any less suspect for being in shape when it mattered to his draft position and wallet.

Why don't you go and find me these "many people" who feel that BBD is in as good of shape as he was in the draft. No one is selling that anymore. It is very obvious.

Go to this link, look at his draft photo, then argue with me...

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://media.2theadvocate.com/images/davis%2Bnba%2Bdraft%2B062907.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.2theadvocate.com/sports/lsu/featured/8238852.html&usg=__ap3-X1jiJBBnY4U0KvcYNjpKsL4=&h=390&w=600&sz=76&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=d8lJSQ5PePVJOM:&tbnh=88&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dglen%2Bdavis%2Bnba%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den-us%26sa%3DN

[Green17]

EJPLAYA -

What is FACT is that you're close to crossing a line.  Knock it off.  You can debate and be respectful at the same time.