Author Topic: Marcus Smart Deserves a Raise  (Read 6942 times)

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Re: Marcus Smart Deserves a Raise
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2019, 10:56:48 AM »

Offline GreenCoffeeBean

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For every player we can say is underpaid, we can find one that's overpaid. It sucks both ways.

Lol in the NBA more like for every one underpaid you can find 8-10 overpaid.

Re: Marcus Smart Deserves a Raise
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2019, 10:58:19 AM »

Offline LilRip

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I sincerely hope Smart wins DPOY. It’s a long shot for sure, but wouldn’t it be great?

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Re: Marcus Smart Deserves a Raise
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2019, 11:21:28 AM »

Offline BitterJim

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Yeah assuming he doesn't drop off at all over the next few years, his current salary is fantastic. He isn't a FA until 2022 I believe, so I hope Marcus is here for the long haul. Truly a Celtic. :)


pay him ...he is going to get disgruntled at some point if he continues playing like this.  Players trash talk each other with what they make. You gotta pay the  man.

They did pay him, in a long term contract that he agreed to and was originally considered an overpay. The only way to increase his salary would be re-negotiating his contract, which would require cap space that we don't/won't have unless we let Hayward go

He'll probably get a great pay bump when his contract expires, but being mad about his salary now won't (and can't) do anything
I'm bitter.

Re: Marcus Smart Deserves a Raise
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2019, 11:29:30 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I'd rate Smart at over $20 million a year. He is earning significantly less than that ($12.5mil) - so yes, he deserves a raise.

Smart is a top 10 SG in the league. His impact as a defender, passer, ball-handler, outside shooter, driver, rebounder make him more valuable than guys who score the ball more than he does but lack his all-around game. That is why I rate Smart as a top 10 SG and worth over $20mil per year.
I'd go even further and argue that he's worth a max contract if he sustains his current offensive production throughout the season. I don't see why he shouldn't earn a max if he's a free agent next offseason, his combination of top tier non-big defense and valuable complementary offense (decent outside shooting on good volume, very good secondary playmaking on good ball security) makes him an All-Star who's no "worse" than the likes of Tobias Harris.
Smart is worth no where near a max contract.  You just can't pay that for 11 ppg, 5 apg, 3 rpg, even if it comes with elite level defense.  You start throwing that kind of money around for that and you end up crippling your team.  Smart is in the Patrick Beverly, Avery Bradley, Tony Allen, etc. level of player.  Very solid role player, but a role player none-the-less.  Those guys are worth more than the MLE, but no where near the max.  That is borne out historically.  Even someone like Draymond Green has never made the max and Green is better than Smart (at least at his peak) in virtually every way.
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Re: Marcus Smart Deserves a Raise
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2019, 11:35:06 AM »

Offline wiley

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under and overpaid players is an unavoidable reality in the NBA due to fast changing pay scale.....

I would hope that players can just put the money out of their minds in the years between contract talks, perhaps taking note of how the legends around them made nothing by comparison (Heinsoln, for example).  As well I would hope part of this is realizing that the more said "underpaid" player is compensated, the less flexibility his team will have to put greatness around him.  The true goal should be visibility and high level play in playoffs and finals.  That's NBA success.  That's what everyone remembers. 

At contract time, then yes, every player has a right to demand as much as the other guy over there who got a big contract.

Finally, if there is an egregiously underpaid player by happenstance, I'm all for a team doing an early intervention to bump it up.  A player who works his butt off game in and game out, such as Marcus, would the type of candidate I'd smile at seeing offered a raise. 

Re: Marcus Smart Deserves a Raise
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2019, 11:40:45 AM »

Offline timpiker

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Rollie said Smart deserves a raise and I agree.  Anyone should be able to clearly see that Marcus can't be measured by stats.  He's almost invaluable to the C's.  And hes been my favorite for years.

Re: Marcus Smart Deserves a Raise
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2019, 11:57:23 AM »

Offline Somebody

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I'd rate Smart at over $20 million a year. He is earning significantly less than that ($12.5mil) - so yes, he deserves a raise.

Smart is a top 10 SG in the league. His impact as a defender, passer, ball-handler, outside shooter, driver, rebounder make him more valuable than guys who score the ball more than he does but lack his all-around game. That is why I rate Smart as a top 10 SG and worth over $20mil per year.
I'd go even further and argue that he's worth a max contract if he sustains his current offensive production throughout the season. I don't see why he shouldn't earn a max if he's a free agent next offseason, his combination of top tier non-big defense and valuable complementary offense (decent outside shooting on good volume, very good secondary playmaking on good ball security) makes him an All-Star who's no "worse" than the likes of Tobias Harris.
Smart is worth no where near a max contract.  You just can't pay that for 11 ppg, 5 apg, 3 rpg, even if it comes with elite level defense.  You start throwing that kind of money around for that and you end up crippling your team.  Smart is in the Patrick Beverly, Avery Bradley, Tony Allen, etc. level of player.  Very solid role player, but a role player none-the-less.  Those guys are worth more than the MLE, but no where near the max.  That is borne out historically.  Even someone like Draymond Green has never made the max and Green is better than Smart (at least at his peak) in virtually every way.
Draymond Green took paycuts to stay at Golden State in order to win titles, he would've gotten multiple max contracts if he wasn't willing to sacrifice his earnings for winning. And Smart's better than those counting stats, he's not averaging very gaudy numbers due to his role on offense (4th option at best) on this team that has 4 really good players in front of him, he'd be averaging something like 14-15 PPG, 6-7 APG and 4-5 RPG per game in a larger role to go along with his top tier non-big defense.

Patrick Beverley, Avery Bradley and Tony Allen are nowhere near Smart's level on defense, Smart's versatility to check wings and even bigs at times makes his defensive value closer to elite defensive wings rather than his guard contemporaries. Add in Smart's newfound ability to actually initiate an offense this season with his playmaking, as well as his improved three point shooting and it's easy to see that Smart is closer to a smaller Draymond than those three players you've mentioned, which makes him a max level player (or at least near max level).
« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 12:02:56 PM by Somebody »
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Re: Marcus Smart Deserves a Raise
« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2019, 12:06:36 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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I'd rate Smart at over $20 million a year. He is earning significantly less than that ($12.5mil) - so yes, he deserves a raise.

Smart is a top 10 SG in the league. His impact as a defender, passer, ball-handler, outside shooter, driver, rebounder make him more valuable than guys who score the ball more than he does but lack his all-around game. That is why I rate Smart as a top 10 SG and worth over $20mil per year.
I'd go even further and argue that he's worth a max contract if he sustains his current offensive production throughout the season. I don't see why he shouldn't earn a max if he's a free agent next offseason, his combination of top tier non-big defense and valuable complementary offense (decent outside shooting on good volume, very good secondary playmaking on good ball security) makes him an All-Star who's no "worse" than the likes of Tobias Harris.
Smart is worth no where near a max contract.  You just can't pay that for 11 ppg, 5 apg, 3 rpg, even if it comes with elite level defense.  You start throwing that kind of money around for that and you end up crippling your team.  Smart is in the Patrick Beverly, Avery Bradley, Tony Allen, etc. level of player.  Very solid role player, but a role player none-the-less.  Those guys are worth more than the MLE, but no where near the max.  That is borne out historically.  Even someone like Draymond Green has never made the max and Green is better than Smart (at least at his peak) in virtually every way.
Draymond Green took paycuts to stay at Golden State in order to win titles, he would've gotten multiple max contracts if he wasn't willing to sacrifice his earnings for winning. And Smart's better than those counting stats, he's not averaging very gaudy numbers due to his role on offense (4th option at best) on this team that has 4 really good players in front of him, he'd be averaging something like 14-15 PPG, 6-7 APG and 4-5 RPG per game in a larger role to go along with his top tier non-big defense.

Patrick Beverley, Avery Bradley and Tony Allen are nowhere near Smart's level on defense, Smart's versatility to check wings and even bigs at times makes his defensive value closer to elite defensive wings rather than his guard contemporaries. Add in Smart's newfound ability to actually initiate an offense this season with his playmaking, as well as his improved three point shooting and it's easy to see that Smart is more of a smaller Draymond than those three players you've mentioned, which makes him a max level player (or at least near max level).

Guys this is silly. Smart is not a max player, not even close. I guarantee you could make him a free agent every year for the net 5 years and even if he continues to play at this level he's never getting a max offer. The simple fact is he scores 10 points a game, and even if his defense is elite he's not a elite rim protector which is the only defensive skill that actually gets max contracts on occasion. He is worth more than he is currently making, but max next year would be 29 million.

Re: Marcus Smart Deserves a Raise
« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2019, 02:34:56 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Every great team needs guys like Marcus Smart.  Specifically, guys who are severely underpaid or whatever reason.

The Warriors were only able to do all that they did over the last half decade because of Curry's amazing bargain-basement price.
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Re: Marcus Smart Deserves a Raise
« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2019, 03:41:01 PM »

Offline aefgogreen

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Unfortunately the hard ball negotiating by Ainge may have done the damage on Smart and Brown relationships... pretty soon both will feel underpaid and that is not a good thing carrying forward

No one forced Smart or Brown to take that money - they actually looked like overpay at the time. I don't think either is taking that as a slight

Sometimes players lose their moxie after signing a big contract. Those two have been playing like they’re in the last year of their contracts.

Yup, tommy point.  Ainge correctly surmised that these guys would be motivated to help their teams win after he took care of them.  We don't have to worry about them showboating or trying to pad their stats for their next contract.  I think this is especially true for Brown but both are true Celtics putting wins before numbers

Re: Marcus Smart Deserves a Raise
« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2019, 05:41:26 PM »

Offline NKY fan

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To put Smart into perspective let’s review the following hypothetical team in the NBA:

Guards- Westbrook/ Smart
Forwards - derozan / butler
Center - L. Aldridge

Marcus would be the best three point shooter and the best defender on that team ( only butler would be close)
Smart is making $12.5M a year

The other 4 combined make $125M a year or on average $19M more than smart. The other 4 have more or less trade value at their respective salaries as evidenced by recent trades and or rumors

Re: Marcus Smart Deserves a Raise
« Reply #41 on: November 14, 2019, 12:02:13 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I'd rate Smart at over $20 million a year. He is earning significantly less than that ($12.5mil) - so yes, he deserves a raise.

Smart is a top 10 SG in the league. His impact as a defender, passer, ball-handler, outside shooter, driver, rebounder make him more valuable than guys who score the ball more than he does but lack his all-around game. That is why I rate Smart as a top 10 SG and worth over $20mil per year.
I'd go even further and argue that he's worth a max contract if he sustains his current offensive production throughout the season. I don't see why he shouldn't earn a max if he's a free agent next offseason, his combination of top tier non-big defense and valuable complementary offense (decent outside shooting on good volume, very good secondary playmaking on good ball security) makes him an All-Star who's no "worse" than the likes of Tobias Harris.
Smart is worth no where near a max contract.  You just can't pay that for 11 ppg, 5 apg, 3 rpg, even if it comes with elite level defense.  You start throwing that kind of money around for that and you end up crippling your team.  Smart is in the Patrick Beverly, Avery Bradley, Tony Allen, etc. level of player.  Very solid role player, but a role player none-the-less.  Those guys are worth more than the MLE, but no where near the max.  That is borne out historically.  Even someone like Draymond Green has never made the max and Green is better than Smart (at least at his peak) in virtually every way.
Draymond Green took paycuts to stay at Golden State in order to win titles, he would've gotten multiple max contracts if he wasn't willing to sacrifice his earnings for winning. And Smart's better than those counting stats, he's not averaging very gaudy numbers due to his role on offense (4th option at best) on this team that has 4 really good players in front of him, he'd be averaging something like 14-15 PPG, 6-7 APG and 4-5 RPG per game in a larger role to go along with his top tier non-big defense.

Patrick Beverley, Avery Bradley and Tony Allen are nowhere near Smart's level on defense, Smart's versatility to check wings and even bigs at times makes his defensive value closer to elite defensive wings rather than his guard contemporaries. Add in Smart's newfound ability to actually initiate an offense this season with his playmaking, as well as his improved three point shooting and it's easy to see that Smart is closer to a smaller Draymond than those three players you've mentioned, which makes him a max level player (or at least near max level).
After 5 seasons, Smart had 1 1st Team All Defense.  Beverly, for comparison, had a 2nd Team and a 1st Team.  After 5 seasons, Beverly was basically a 10/4/3 type player though never had a TS% lower than 50.9% and was over 54.5% four times.  Smart's TS% his first four seasons was under 49.2%, only in year five did he finally elevate it up to a respectable level of 56.8%.  Beverly was also a full time starter (after his rookie year) and not a back-up.  After his 8th season when Beverly was 30, the best he could do was 3 years, 40 million, which annually more than doubled any previous seasons salary in his career. 

Draymond signed his second contract after his 3rd year as a restricted free agent for 5 years, 82 million.  That was a good 30 million under the salary cap.  No team came anywhere close to offering Green that kind of money and frankly, even coming off the title I'm not so sure the Warriors would have matched a 4 year, 90ish million dollar offer (which was around the 4 year max).  During that 3rd season he finished 2nd in DPOY, was 1st team All Defense and averaged basically 12/8/4 along with 1.6 steals and 1.3 blocks.  Plus the Warriors won the title, and yet he came no where close to a max contract offer.  Smart has never come close to a season that good and the best Draymond could do was 5 years, 82 million.

Smart is worth no where close to a max contract.  He just isn't.  He might get slightly more than the 4 year, 52 million he signed for on the open market, but it wouldn't be much more than that as players like him just don't move the needle in that way.  They are great role players that any team would be lucky to have, but they don't merit huge contracts. 
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Re: Marcus Smart Deserves a Raise
« Reply #42 on: November 14, 2019, 12:26:17 AM »

Offline ETNCeltics

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To put Smart into perspective let’s review the following hypothetical team in the NBA:

Guards- Westbrook/ Smart
Forwards - derozan / butler
Center - L. Aldridge

Marcus would be the best three point shooter and the best defender on that team ( only butler would be close)
Smart is making $12.5M a year

The other 4 combined make $125M a year or on average $19M more than smart. The other 4 have more or less trade value at their respective salaries as evidenced by recent trades and or rumors
Those guys are arguably all overpaid, other than perhaps Butler. SA would unload both their high paid guys if they could get something for them.

Smart better defender than Butler? More likely a push.  Butler is definitely a better closer. Over the course of his career, he's proven to be one of the league's best 2 way players, Marcus hasn't.

As others have said, Marcus isn't an elite offensive player, and that's what NBA teams value. Marcus was on the market and got no big offers. He is probably underpaid, but not vastly so. No one is giving him $20 million/year (other than maybe the Knicks; those morons are liable to do anything).

Re: Marcus Smart Deserves a Raise
« Reply #43 on: November 14, 2019, 12:26:36 AM »

Offline Somebody

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I'd rate Smart at over $20 million a year. He is earning significantly less than that ($12.5mil) - so yes, he deserves a raise.

Smart is a top 10 SG in the league. His impact as a defender, passer, ball-handler, outside shooter, driver, rebounder make him more valuable than guys who score the ball more than he does but lack his all-around game. That is why I rate Smart as a top 10 SG and worth over $20mil per year.
I'd go even further and argue that he's worth a max contract if he sustains his current offensive production throughout the season. I don't see why he shouldn't earn a max if he's a free agent next offseason, his combination of top tier non-big defense and valuable complementary offense (decent outside shooting on good volume, very good secondary playmaking on good ball security) makes him an All-Star who's no "worse" than the likes of Tobias Harris.
Smart is worth no where near a max contract.  You just can't pay that for 11 ppg, 5 apg, 3 rpg, even if it comes with elite level defense.  You start throwing that kind of money around for that and you end up crippling your team.  Smart is in the Patrick Beverly, Avery Bradley, Tony Allen, etc. level of player.  Very solid role player, but a role player none-the-less.  Those guys are worth more than the MLE, but no where near the max.  That is borne out historically.  Even someone like Draymond Green has never made the max and Green is better than Smart (at least at his peak) in virtually every way.
Draymond Green took paycuts to stay at Golden State in order to win titles, he would've gotten multiple max contracts if he wasn't willing to sacrifice his earnings for winning. And Smart's better than those counting stats, he's not averaging very gaudy numbers due to his role on offense (4th option at best) on this team that has 4 really good players in front of him, he'd be averaging something like 14-15 PPG, 6-7 APG and 4-5 RPG per game in a larger role to go along with his top tier non-big defense.

Patrick Beverley, Avery Bradley and Tony Allen are nowhere near Smart's level on defense, Smart's versatility to check wings and even bigs at times makes his defensive value closer to elite defensive wings rather than his guard contemporaries. Add in Smart's newfound ability to actually initiate an offense this season with his playmaking, as well as his improved three point shooting and it's easy to see that Smart is closer to a smaller Draymond than those three players you've mentioned, which makes him a max level player (or at least near max level).
After 5 seasons, Smart had 1 1st Team All Defense.  Beverly, for comparison, had a 2nd Team and a 1st Team.  After 5 seasons, Beverly was basically a 10/4/3 type player though never had a TS% lower than 50.9% and was over 54.5% four times.  Smart's TS% his first four seasons was under 49.2%, only in year five did he finally elevate it up to a respectable level of 56.8%.  Beverly was also a full time starter (after his rookie year) and not a back-up.  After his 8th season when Beverly was 30, the best he could do was 3 years, 40 million, which annually more than doubled any previous seasons salary in his career. 

Draymond signed his second contract after his 3rd year as a restricted free agent for 5 years, 82 million.  That was a good 30 million under the salary cap.  No team came anywhere close to offering Green that kind of money and frankly, even coming off the title I'm not so sure the Warriors would have matched a 4 year, 90ish million dollar offer (which was around the 4 year max).  During that 3rd season he finished 2nd in DPOY, was 1st team All Defense and averaged basically 12/8/4 along with 1.6 steals and 1.3 blocks.  Plus the Warriors won the title, and yet he came no where close to a max contract offer.  Smart has never come close to a season that good and the best Draymond could do was 5 years, 82 million.

Smart is worth no where close to a max contract.  He just isn't.  He might get slightly more than the 4 year, 52 million he signed for on the open market, but it wouldn't be much more than that as players like him just don't move the needle in that way.  They are great role players that any team would be lucky to have, but they don't merit huge contracts.
Accolades are very unreliable when it comes to evaluating a player's quality, there have been many instances of players getting awards that they don't deserve. In the case of Beverley, his defense is overrated due to his best quality being on ball guard defense - he's not a great help defender, and he can't check wings or bigs. Smart's defensive impact far trumps a player like Beverley, and his offense this season so far has been better than Beverley's as well with his improved playmaking and shooting. Add in the fact that he's 25 years old, not 30 and you can see that the Beverley comparisons really don't hold up.

Draymond Green took a deal that was 12 million less than the max he was eligible for, and he took that kind of paycut because he wanted to continue winning in Golden State (here's a source: https://www.si.com/nba/2018/06/12/draymond-green-not-taking-pay-cut-next-contract). He would've been an easy max for any team if he wanted to maximise his earnings, ceiling raisers like Draymond are incredibly rare and teams are very much willing to pay a premium for such players. We paid Al Horford a 4 year max just because we wanted a Draymond type of big on our team!

Smart is basically the guard version of Draymond Green, and I maintain that teams will be lining up to pay him a max (or at least near max) contract if he was a free agent today. Fans might not see his impact because of his 5th option role on offense, but he definitely has All-Star impact on the game, even if most people can only see accolades and counting stats in the box score.
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