Why is Rondo isolating at the End of Quarters?!

[EJPLAYA]

Yeah unbelievable you know except for the fact the actual coach seems to think it's he best move.  So really is it that unbelievable?

I'm willing to bet that Doc doesn't think that Rondo shooting the ball is smarter than PP. He may be seeing if Rondo can break his man off the dribble and get someone else open, but that isn't working. I bet if this continues he won't be doing it much longer.

[Chris]

Yeah unbelievable you know except for the fact the actual coach seems to think it's he best move.  So really is it that unbelievable?

I'm willing to bet that Doc doesn't think that Rondo shooting the ball is smarter than PP. He may be seeing if Rondo can break his man off the dribble and get someone else open, but that isn't working. I bet if this continues he won't be doing it much longer.

I think Doc considers Rondo the best decision-maker on the team, and the best "playmaker".  He feels the Rondo will get them the highest percentage shot, whether it be a shot for himself, or someone else.  Unfortunately, where it worked for a while, it has not been working lately, so it seems like Doc should be looking at other options to mix it up...although ultimately, I think the ball should be in Rondo's hands.

[Levis107]

I mentioned this to my friend at the game last night when Rondo ran down the clock and took an ugly jumper in the final seconds of a quarter. It seems like it would only be a good idea if Rondo was looking to drive and dish but it hasn't been happening and quarters usually end with Rondo pulling up for a forced jumpshot or a wild layup attempt on a drive.  In the past it's been Pierce with the ball in his hands and I'm not sure why it changed last season.  I think Pierce is just as effective driving and dishing and he certainly shoots a higer percentage pulling up for a jumper.

[albas89]

Well, if you have Ray or Pierce with the ball in their hands for an ISO, then their man just sags off rondo because hes not going to make a shot.  That defender can come help on Paul or Ray which wont end up with a drive to the hoop either.  It will be another forced jumper.  At least with Rondo handling the ball, he can have his man all to himself, since the other perimeter defenders need to stick with Ray and Paul.  There are lots of times where Rondo has basically been given a shot by the opposing player and with his speed got by him anyway.

It makes more sense doing it this way, since the defenders cannot cheat off, and if they do, then Rondo can find Ray or Paul as opposed to having Rondo's man free to help.

True, I was about to write the same thing... The problem is that our opponents found a way to "predict" Rondo's ISO, as it has been said... I'll talk mostly about Pierce, cuz I think Ray is more useful as a 3-point threat, distracting one defender's complete attention! Furthermore, he can take advantage of a pass off the screen more than any other guard...

However, I think that the decision depends on "the day"! I mean, Pierce is not isolating only at the end of the quarters, he does this thing many times during the game, a big(maybe the biggest)part of his offensive play consists of this style of offense, when he takes it 1-on-1 and hits the jumper or drives it to the lane! You can't doubt that, he creates offense on his own, he's been doing it all these years and, consequently, he knows how to do it better than Rondo or whoever else in this team... BUT(there's always a BUT)!! But when Pierce is struggling, he can't do this properly and he often ruins everything as well! It's a matter of psychology then, he turnovers the ball most of the times and this whole thing is a boomerang... When Pierce is playing well, there's no question, he should get the ball!! Even if he is not able to shoot(double-teamed), he'll go to the FT line or he'll find the open man and dish! And most of the times, when Pierce does that, the open man is KG and not Rondo! That's what I think I've noticed so far, I don't know if it's true...
On the other hand, when Pierce is struggling, I think Rondo is the best option, he's the playmaker after all...

So, my point is that the ISOs(if needed) should be done by Pierce AND Rondo, depending on how PP has been doing till that moment!! In general, we shouldn't be predictable so it would be fine if we use both players in this kind of situations instead of just Rondo or Pierce!!Like 50 Pierce- 50 Rondo...

[kenmaine]

Biggest Rondo fan in the world here, but I have to agree with this. It's been happening more often lately, and it's ugly.
Have to assume it's Doc's idea- he is the coach after all.
It's not so much that it's Rondo running it, but I just hate the premise of "run the clock down to 6 seconds and work for a shot". Seems like it very rarely works(guessing 20% of the time), although it does usually prevent the opponent from getting another play, which is the idea.
But what really makes me laugh is when a team is down by about 20 points at the end of the second or third quarter, and holds the ball for the last shot.

[EJPLAYA]

How about if we just have Rondo stand at the top and hold the ball until the quarter ends. It has been about as effective.

Rondo is a very good playmaker in a normal half court setting and especially pushing the ball up the floor on the break. He is not a 1-1 player which by definition is what "isolation" means. In order to be able to score 1-1 you have to have more than one offensive option. If they know you can't shoot, then you won't be able to drive on them. Even if you get a little bit of a step on the defender you are going to have him throw up one of his wild layups. Most of those don't even come close. The odds of him pulling up and making the shot are very low, so teams will live with that.

I am fine with PP occasionally turning the ball over, because he makes a lot of those pullup fade away jumpers as well. If you are trying to actually score, he really is the option. No one else except maybe Ray should even be in the discussion. Look at the results! Rondo isn't scoring on ANY of them.

[nickagneta]

How about if we just have Rondo stand at the top and hold the ball until the quarter ends. It has been about as effective.

Rondo is a very good playmaker in a normal half court setting and especially pushing the ball up the floor on the break. He is not a 1-1 player which by definition is what "isolation" means. In order to be able to score 1-1 you have to have more than one offensive option. If they know you can't shoot, then you won't be able to drive on them. Even if you get a little bit of a step on the defender you are going to have him throw up one of his wild layups. Most of those don't even come close. The odds of him pulling up and making the shot are very low, so teams will live with that.

I am fine with PP occasionally turning the ball over, because he makes a lot of those pullup fade away jumpers as well. If you are trying to actually score, he really is the option. No one else except maybe Ray should even be in the discussion. Look at the results! Rondo isn't scoring on ANY of them.

As much as I agree that Rondo lately has done a bad job when doing that end of the quarter iso, I think you are severely overestimating how many times Pierce made that shot. I have no numbers but given the amount of isos he had, the amount of times he never got off a shot, the amount of times he turned the ball over for a possession for the other team(including offensive fouls) and the amount of times he missed the shot, I would guess that Paul's success rate last year on every iso was under 20% easy.

Now Rondo's success last year at the end of the year was pretty good in either taking or creating a shot for another team mate. He also almost never turned it over, unlike Pierce. But an adjustment has been made by opposing teams and now it's time for Doc to re-adjust because Rondo's success lately is even lower than Pierce's, although he just about never let's the other team have the ball either. Many, many times last year I felt there was an almost 4 point swing just before half because of the inevitable pierce TO in the iso that led to the opposition scoring 2 or more.

[fatherscott]

I agree with Nick. To give credit where credit is due, Simmons talks about this a lot: these end of quarter isos, by anyone, are stupid. Just run a play. Especially with a well-run team like the Celts, why are we afraid to pass the ball. It just might lead to a wide-open Ray 3, which is a slightly higher percentage shot than anyone isoing.

[Boris Badenov]

It's early in the season. If we know one thing about Doc, it's that during the regular season he tinkers, both with lineups and with plays, for most of the year. It clearly paid off last year, when our 6-12 bench guys were all capable of contributing when we needed them.

Even if this doesn't work as well as having PP ISO, the fact that we now have two options makes the other coach's job that much harder when they're scouting us.

[papa shuttlesworth]

It's early in the season. If we know one thing about Doc, it's that during the regular season he tinkers, both with lineups and with plays, for most of the year. It clearly paid off last year, when our 6-12 bench guys were all capable of contributing when we needed them.

Even if this doesn't work as well as having PP ISO, the fact that we now have two options makes the other coach's job that much harder when they're scouting us.

Exactly.  In the playoffs, the ball will most likely be in the hands of Pierce or Ray and they will be the best options, by far.  But what if one of them tweaks their knee and this time can't run out of the tunnel?  I'd rather have Rondo figure out when to drive, pass or shoot in the last possession (and probably mess it up while he learns) in November/December than in a Game 7.

[cordobes]

Turnovers are costly. No need to risk one. Team have some prepared plays, but no need to show them to finish a quarter in a regular season game. I prefer the safe approach of having the ball in someone's hands by far.

Rondo is the better (or safest option) option: he has the best handling; teams don't respect him off-the-ball, so they could sag off of him to trap the ball-handler.

[EJPLAYA]

I think we are all in agreement that the best thing that they could do is run a play. Nice comments by all!

[cordobes]

I think we are all in agreement that the best thing that they could do is run a play. Nice comments by all!

What do you mean by running a play?

I'm all in favor of dribbling down the clock and running an ISO to finish quarters in the regular season, except if it's the final quarter and we need to score to win the game.

In the last game, we had a play where Rondo dribbled and House came towards him and turned him to a catch and shoot. That's a play.

More complicated stuff, with lots of pass and penetrations till the final seconds, I don't like at all, it's a waste. Save those signature plays to when you really need them. Call complex plays that weren't practiced is highly risky. Even a terrible shot has a chance of going in, and you can always rebound it. A turnover is terrible.

[Chris]

I think we are all in agreement that the best thing that they could do is run a play. Nice comments by all!

Well, an isolation play is a play.  Yes, it may not involve intricate passing (which also increases the chances of turnovers), but it involves proper spacing, moving off the ball, and a good decision by the player with the ball to take what the defense gives them, whether it is a pass or a shot.

I am happy with the isolation plays at the end of quarters 1-3 (and 4 in a tie game, not if they are trailing). I just think that throughout the season they need to make adjustment to the type of isolation play.  Sometimes they can use picks, other times not.  Try different spacing for guys off the ball, etc.

[guava_wrench]

I think we are all in agreement that the best thing that they could do is run a play. Nice comments by all!

The end of the quarter dribble the clock down is a play.

Do people want more passes? More options? How do you do that without risking a turnover and without shooting too early?

Rondo was much more effective last year when he went to the hoop on the last play of the quarter. He has been taking more jumpers as of late. I expect that the particular end of the quarter play used depends to some degree upon matchups, which is the most sensible way to do things.

We should also avoid confirmation bias. It is easy to only take note of the plays that seem to support our preconceptions, while ignoring all the plays that don't. There are plenty of times when going for the last shot has turned out to be a great play.