Owe alot of thanks to Seattle for #17- Ainge wanted Swift instead of Jefferson

[libermaniac]

I've never seen a faster transition from "goofy looking big guy" to "goofy looking big guy who thinks he's really tough", especially considering he's hardly played.

I don't know (you are probably right), but I think Cherokee Parks would give him a run for his money.

From:


to:

[lon3lytoaster]

Danny almost didnt do the Ray Allen deal because Swift wasnt in it. I remember this report on draft night.

No, it was that he wasn't going to put Rondo in without Swift.

[winsomme]

Danny almost didnt do the Ray Allen deal because Swift wasnt in it. I remember this report on draft night.

No, it was that he wasn't going to put Rondo in without Swift.

i think it was actually the other way around. the report was Seattle wasn't going to put Swift in without Rondo...

[Roy Hobbs]

so you're saying that Danny doesn't use smokescreens....or that GMs in general don't use smoke screens.....?

i think you are the one engaging in revisionist history here....

the fact is that Big Al was supposed to be off the board at 15. ironically, the rumors were that SEATTLE was the team that wanted him.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2004/news/story?id=1826621

as you reported, Danny liked both players and seemed comfortable taking either. what he would have done if they were both on the board at #15 is total speculation on your part.

Can you name one of these famous Danny Ainge smokescreens?

We were rumored to be selecting Marcus Banks.  We selected Marcus Banks.

We were rumored to be selecting Robert Swift or Al Jefferson.  We tried to move up to get Swift, and selected Jefferson.

We were rumored to love Rajon Rondo.  Danny traded for Rajon Rondo.

I can't think of a single player we were linked to that Danny passed over.  For all the talk of "master of the smoke screen" that I hear, I can't think of any that actually happened.  There may have been one somewhere, but the pretty clear track record is, if it's reported that Danny is enamored with somebody, he probably is.

Also, what part of that Bulpett report wasn't clear?  We tried to move up to select *Swift*.  Get it?  Not Al Jefferson.  Robert Swift.  I'm sure Danny, if he were being candid, would admit he got a little lucky.  Why can't you?

Anyway, once again, you have proven yourself to be the most unreasonable person on the blog in terms of "debate".  I'm done with you tonight.

[winsomme]

so you're saying that Danny doesn't use smokescreens....or that GMs in general don't use smoke screens.....?

i think you are the one engaging in revisionist history here....

the fact is that Big Al was supposed to be off the board at 15. ironically, the rumors were that SEATTLE was the team that wanted him.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2004/news/story?id=1826621

as you reported, Danny liked both players and seemed comfortable taking either. what he would have done if they were both on the board at #15 is total speculation on your part.

Can you name one of these famous Danny Ainge smokescreens?

We were rumored to be selecting Marcus Banks.  We selected Marcus Banks.

We were rumored to be selecting Robert Swift or Al Jefferson.  We tried to move up to get Swift, and selected Jefferson.

We were rumored to love Rajon Rondo.  Danny traded for Rajon Rondo.

I can't think of a single player we were linked to that Danny passed over.  For all the talk of "master of the smoke screen" that I hear, I can't think of any that actually happened.  There may have been one somewhere, but the pretty clear track record is, if it's reported that Danny is enamored with somebody, he probably is.

Also, what part of that Bulpett report wasn't clear?  We tried to move up to select *Swift*.  Get it?  Not Al Jefferson.  Robert Swift.  I'm sure Danny, if he were being candid, would admit he got a little lucky.  Why can't you?

Anyway, once again, you have proven yourself to be the most unreasonable person on the blog in terms of "debate".  I'm done with you tonight.

you're done with the debate because you know that whole "confirmed as truth" argument is based on speculation.

the "reports" were that Seattle wanted Big Al, yet they took Swift....why is that?

[aliendave]

Anyway, here's how Steve Bulpett described it immediately after the draft:

...
``We felt like we had to get one of those two guys, Swift or Jefferson, and that's where the contingencies were built. But just a combination of picks wasn't going to do it. It would have had to be a player. Teams had interest in Jiri, and we didn't want to make that sacrifice. We think Jiri is better than a lot of the guys that were being drafted from 5-10.''

So one of the reasons we ended up with Big Al (and, by extension, KG and Title #17) is that Danny didn't want to part with Jiri Welsch. [dang], I guess that dude really was the key to the Walker trade! 

This stuff is fun to think about post 17. 

[Roy Hobbs]

Anyway, here's how Steve Bulpett described it immediately after the draft:

...
``We felt like we had to get one of those two guys, Swift or Jefferson, and that's where the contingencies were built. But just a combination of picks wasn't going to do it. It would have had to be a player. Teams had interest in Jiri, and we didn't want to make that sacrifice. We think Jiri is better than a lot of the guys that were being drafted from 5-10.''

So one of the reasons we ended up with Big Al (and, by extension, KG and Title #17) is that Danny didn't want to part with Jiri Welsch. [dang], I guess that dude really was the key to the Walker trade! 

This stuff is fun to think about post 17. 

Yep, Jiri was the key to everything.

1) He was acquired in the same deal that brought us Raef, and was described as one of the key pieces.  Raef's deal was packaged for Ratliff's, which was sent to Minnesota in the KG trade;

2) Danny refused to include him in a trade for Robert Swift, leaving us to "settle" for Al Jefferson, who was sent to Minnesota in the KG trade;

3) Jiri was eventually traded to Cleveland for a #1 pick.  That #1 pick was traded to Phoenix for Rajon Rondo.

Clearly, Jiri was one of the most influential players in Celtics history.

[winsomme]

so you're saying that Danny doesn't use smokescreens....or that GMs in general don't use smoke screens.....?

i think you are the one engaging in revisionist history here....

the fact is that Big Al was supposed to be off the board at 15. ironically, the rumors were that SEATTLE was the team that wanted him.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2004/news/story?id=1826621

as you reported, Danny liked both players and seemed comfortable taking either. what he would have done if they were both on the board at #15 is total speculation on your part.

Can you name one of these famous Danny Ainge smokescreens?

We were rumored to be selecting Marcus Banks.  We selected Marcus Banks.

We were rumored to be selecting Robert Swift or Al Jefferson.  We tried to move up to get Swift, and selected Jefferson.

We were rumored to love Rajon Rondo.  Danny traded for Rajon Rondo.

I can't think of a single player we were linked to that Danny passed over.  For all the talk of "master of the smoke screen" that I hear, I can't think of any that actually happened.  There may have been one somewhere, but the pretty clear track record is, if it's reported that Danny is enamored with somebody, he probably is.

Also, what part of that Bulpett report wasn't clear?  We tried to move up to select *Swift*.  Get it?  Not Al Jefferson.  Robert Swift.  I'm sure Danny, if he were being candid, would admit he got a little lucky.  Why can't you?

Anyway, once again, you have proven yourself to be the most unreasonable person on the blog in terms of "debate".  I'm done with you tonight.

by the way, the only thing that matters here is relative value....

the rumors were that if we kept our pick in 2006 that Danny would have taken Rondo, but i'm sure Danny looked at the relative value and thought that if he didn't take Rondo, there might be another point in the draft because taking him at 7 was high based on where he was predicted to go....

so applying this to the Big Al/Swift situation....the question was how much should be given up to insure that we get one of two players that we both like vs taking the one that drops because we like them both...

the fact is that Big Al was not supposed to be there when we picked and what would have happened if they were both there we simply do not know...

[johnnyrondo]

I think Danny has even admitted to getting lucky. I seem to recal him talking about "best player available" drafting and mentioning how Portland passed on Al Jefferson, b/c they had Zach Randolph and drafted Telfair instead. Then when they had the opportunity to draft Chris Paul, b/c they had Telfair they traded that pick for M. Webster. I believe Danny would of drafted either Swift or Telfair over Jefferson, but got lucky that both were off the board.

Personally if not for that bit of luck, Ainge's drafting ability has been pretty eh. I know that Ratliff's contract expired one yr earlier than Raef's but Telfair was never worth a high lottery pick (Brandon Roy). Who were we bidding against? No one wanted Telfair. Ainge thought Telfair was going to be the next Chris Paul (with the rule changes).People credit Ainge's drafting with getting us Ray Allen and KG, but to be honest we got Allen by sucking last year and overpaying a little with a top 5 pick. Al Jefferson was the only player that Ainge drafted that helped us get either of those two(and he was because of luck). Between all those years of us sucking, us having two high lottery picks the past two yrs, and future first rounders we traded, we should of had enough to get KG and Allen. It wasn't because Danny was picking all these diamonds year after year. He's missed more than he's hit imo. Obviously there are much worse GM's out there, but that's not the point. Getting a bench for this past year, I do give Danny credit for, but Danny isn't a great on draft day. Throw in a Monta Ellis or a Josh Howard or a Brandon Roy and I'd feel a little differently. I just think Ainge is overrated on draft day.

If Seattle had agreed to give us Swift if we gave them Rondo, that would have been awful.

[winsomme]

Al Jefferson
PF | 6-10, 263 | Prentiss (Miss.) H.S.
Why? This was a tough call. That's why the Sonics are trying to trade this pick. The Sonics do love Jefferson and look at him as more of a face-up scorer than a back-to-the-basket scorer. Nevada's Kirk Snyder is a possibility here, but Seattle is so stocked on the perimeter with Barry (for the time being) and Allen. Rafael Araujo is another name to look for here, but the word is that Seattle is fond of Jefferson.

the Sonics "loved" Jefferson...Danny "loved" Swift......who loved who more....Seattle could have taken either, yet DIDN'T take the player that they "reportedly" loved...

again, the revisionist history here is saying what Danny REALLY wanted to do. what we know is that Danny did not trade up in that draft and a certainly plausible explanation is that he liked BOTH...

[winsomme]

Seattle SuperSonics
Picks: 12 , 35, 41
Came away with: Robert Swift (12), David Young (41)
They needed a center, and Swift is a nice prospect. But it's always dangerous to draft for need, and how many centers picked after the top five really become impact players? Meanwhile, they passed on potential studs Kirk Snyder and Jefferson. Bold gamble by GM Rick Sund.

the fact is that you can never know for certain what the deciding factor is going to be when it is time to pull the trigger. no matter how much a GM reportedly loves a certain player. things change and they change fast.

Danny loved Rondo in the 2006 Draft, yet didn't take him with the lottery pick, then only to pick him up later...so did he love him or not love him...

he traded what was thought to be a very valuable pick in the 2007 draft to get him. so where does that put his love for Rondo on a relative scale?

unless you are going to trade your entire team like Ditka did to get Ricky Williams, it is impossible to know for certain what would have happened if a situation had played out differently.

it wasn't like someone twisted Danny's arm to pick Jefferson.

[BballTim]

so you're saying that Danny doesn't use smokescreens....or that GMs in general don't use smoke screens.....?

i think you are the one engaging in revisionist history here....

the fact is that Big Al was supposed to be off the board at 15. ironically, the rumors were that SEATTLE was the team that wanted him.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2004/news/story?id=1826621

as you reported, Danny liked both players and seemed comfortable taking either. what he would have done if they were both on the board at #15 is total speculation on your part.

Can you name one of these famous Danny Ainge smokescreens?

  For starters, Korolov and Roko Ukic were said to both have received promises from Ainge. But that (smokescreens) doesn't mean that he didn't want Swift, which he did. I don't see why it's a big deal, though. Do teams picking 15th get the top guy on their draft boards? Ainge would have taken plenty of player over Swift, starting with Howard, Okafor and Livingston. And Seattle was pretty high on Swift when he was healthy.

[Spoon]

I think Danny has even admitted to getting lucky. I seem to recal him talking about "best player available" drafting and mentioning how Portland passed on Al Jefferson, b/c they had Zach Randolph and drafted Telfair instead. Then when they had the opportunity to draft Chris Paul, b/c they had Telfair they traded that pick for M. Webster. I believe Danny would of drafted either Swift or Telfair over Jefferson, but got lucky that both were off the board.

Personally if not for that bit of luck, Ainge's drafting ability has been pretty eh. I know that Ratliff's contract expired one yr earlier than Raef's but Telfair was never worth a high lottery pick (Brandon Roy). Who were we bidding against? No one wanted Telfair. Ainge thought Telfair was going to be the next Chris Paul (with the rule changes).People credit Ainge's drafting with getting us Ray Allen and KG, but to be honest we got Allen by sucking last year and overpaying a little with a top 5 pick. Al Jefferson was the only player that Ainge drafted that helped us get either of those two(and he was because of luck). Between all those years of us sucking, us having two high lottery picks the past two yrs, and future first rounders we traded, we should of had enough to get KG and Allen. It wasn't because Danny was picking all these diamonds year after year. He's missed more than he's hit imo. Obviously there are much worse GM's out there, but that's not the point. Getting a bench for this past year, I do give Danny credit for, but Danny isn't a great on draft day. Throw in a Monta Ellis or a Josh Howard or a Brandon Roy and I'd feel a little differently. I just think Ainge is overrated on draft day.

If Seattle had agreed to give us Swift if we gave them Rondo, that would have been awful.

I couldn't disagree with you more and I sense an anti-Danny bias. Seriously. Why would anyone be anti-Danny these days? Geez. I guess there is always someone you can't please.   

[Roy Hobbs]

so you're saying that Danny doesn't use smokescreens....or that GMs in general don't use smoke screens.....?

i think you are the one engaging in revisionist history here....

the fact is that Big Al was supposed to be off the board at 15. ironically, the rumors were that SEATTLE was the team that wanted him.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2004/news/story?id=1826621

as you reported, Danny liked both players and seemed comfortable taking either. what he would have done if they were both on the board at #15 is total speculation on your part.

Can you name one of these famous Danny Ainge smokescreens?

  For starters, Korolov and Roko Ukic were said to both have received promises from Ainge. But that (smokescreens) doesn't mean that he didn't want Swift, which he did. I don't see why it's a big deal, though. Do teams picking 15th get the top guy on their draft boards? Ainge would have taken plenty of player over Swift, starting with Howard, Okafor and Livingston. And Seattle was pretty high on Swift when he was healthy.

Oh, I agree.  It's not a big deal at all; I can't even say that Robert Swift wouldn't have been worth the 15th pick if healthy, or even that he wouldn't have turned out to be a better player than Big Al.  I don't think the love for Swift is really reason to criticize Danny at all.  (I hadn't heard the rumor of Korolev or Ukic promises, although I know Danny was said to have liked both.  Korolev was picked prior to our selection, though.)

Danny got a bit lucky, maybe, because of how things worked out.  However, that doesn't mean that he didn't properly identify Big Al as a superb player.

The only issue that bugs me is people trying to claim in hindsight that Big Al was Danny's guy all along.  That's just so counter to the facts to border on ridiculous.

[johnnyrondo]

I think Danny has even admitted to getting lucky. I seem to recal him talking about "best player available" drafting and mentioning how Portland passed on Al Jefferson, b/c they had Zach Randolph and drafted Telfair instead. Then when they had the opportunity to draft Chris Paul, b/c they had Telfair they traded that pick for M. Webster. I believe Danny would of drafted either Swift or Telfair over Jefferson, but got lucky that both were off the board.

Personally if not for that bit of luck, Ainge's drafting ability has been pretty eh. I know that Ratliff's contract expired one yr earlier than Raef's but Telfair was never worth a high lottery pick (Brandon Roy). Who were we bidding against? No one wanted Telfair. Ainge thought Telfair was going to be the next Chris Paul (with the rule changes).People credit Ainge's drafting with getting us Ray Allen and KG, but to be honest we got Allen by sucking last year and overpaying a little with a top 5 pick. Al Jefferson was the only player that Ainge drafted that helped us get either of those two(and he was because of luck). Between all those years of us sucking, us having two high lottery picks the past two yrs, and future first rounders we traded, we should of had enough to get KG and Allen. It wasn't because Danny was picking all these diamonds year after year. He's missed more than he's hit imo. Obviously there are much worse GM's out there, but that's not the point. Getting a bench for this past year, I do give Danny credit for, but Danny isn't a great on draft day. Throw in a Monta Ellis or a Josh Howard or a Brandon Roy and I'd feel a little differently. I just think Ainge is overrated on draft day.

If Seattle had agreed to give us Swift if we gave them Rondo, that would have been awful.

I couldn't disagree with you more and I sense an anti-Danny bias. Seriously. Why would anyone be anti-Danny these days? Geez. I guess there is always someone you can't please.   

I've always thought Danny was overrated on draft day. To change course now, because we won the championship, would be hypocritical and fickle.