Say OKC gets booted , would they trade Westbrook for Rondo then ? and would you?

[Celtics18]

And, D.o.s,

As far as the defense thing goes; if you want to make the claim that Westbrook's better DRtg for this season makes him a better overall defensive player than Rondo, or, more importantly, assures that he will be a better defensive player going forward, then go ahead.

It's flimsy, though.  I'm sure you are aware of that.  Using statistics to try to determine who is a better offensive player is difficult enough (as this thread has contributed to proving), but trying to do it for defense is even hazier. 

It's why I actually put a lot of weight into the All Defense awards.  Unlike the other major awards, it is voted on by the coaches.  I kind of trust the coaches who have to game plan against the other team to be the best judges out there of who makes the largest defensive impact on games. 

Up until his knee injury, the coaches consistently chose Rajon Rondo as one of the best defensive guards in the league. 

To me, that's the most significant piece of evidence for Rondo being an elite defensive player--other than, of course, my own eye test, which I realize that many will find unreliable. 

[Celtics18]

I think that Rondo's D will improve with better teammates, for sure. As to the All-Star thing:

 All-Star Votes from last year:

 1. Dwyane Wade (Mia) 929,542
2. Kyrie Irving (Cle) 860,221
3. John Wall (Was) 393,129
4. Derrick Rose (Chi) 359,546
5. Ray Allen (Mia) 250,909
6. Rajon Rondo (Bos) 174,654
http://www.insidehoops.com/all-star-voting-results.shtml#oOVvlHU0ZabQuzpu.99

West Coast:
 1. Stephen Curry (GS) 1,047,281
 2. Kobe Bryant (LAL) 988,884
3. Chris Paul (LAC) 804,309
 4. Jeremy Lin (Hou) 628,818
5. James Harden (Hou) 470,381
6. Russell Westbrook (OKC) 317,338


And 2012:
Derrick Rose (Chi) 1,514,723
Dwyane Wade (Mia) 1,334,223;
Rajon Rondo (Bos) 547,110;
Ray Allen (Bos) 382,147;
Deron Williams (NJN) 208,697;
Jose Calderon (Tor) 132,167;
Richard Hamilton (Chi) 111,368;
John Wall (Was) 96,606;
Kyrie Irving (Cle) 96,346;
Joe Johnson (Atl) 66,145.

http://www.nba.com/2012/allstar/2012/02/02/starters-release/index.html

Pretty much any player's fanbase is predicated on them being on a winning team. Rondo's no different, especially when you're talking about something as fickle as the all-star voting process.

This does nothing to support your argument that Russell Westbrook will garner more fan votes than Rondo.  The only year that Westbrook has gotten more votes is this past season when Rondo played in a total of 10 games before the All Star break. 

Otherwise, Rondo has consistently outpaced Westbrook by a wide margin in voting for All Star game starter.  For example, in 2013--the year after Westbrook's team made the NBA finals--Rondo got well over twice as many votes as Westbrook.

Pretty much any player's fanbase is predicated on them being on a winning team. Rondo's no different, especially when you're talking about something as fickle as the all-star voting process.

I'll re-iterate what I said in an earlier post;  Rondo being in the hunt for the All Star game assumes that Danny will put a team on the floor next season that is at least competitive enough to be playing .500 ball and be a legitimate playoff contender.

I think that's likely.  If not, then, no, Rondo probably won't be in contention for an All Star bid. 

[D.o.s.]

^ Fair enough. That's a bold supposition, I think.

And, D.o.s,

As far as the defense thing goes; if you want to make the claim that Westbrook's better DRtg for this season makes him a better overall defensive player than Rondo, or, more importantly, assures that he will be a better defensive player going forward, then go ahead.

It's flimsy, though.  I'm sure you are aware of that.  Using statistics to try to determine who is a better offensive player is difficult enough (as this thread has contributed to proving), but trying to do it for defense is even hazier. 

It's why I actually put a lot of weight into the All Defense awards.  Unlike the other major awards, it is voted on by the coaches.  I kind of trust the coaches who have to game plan against the other team to be the best judges out there of who makes the largest defensive impact on games. 

Up until his knee injury, the coaches consistently chose Rajon Rondo as one of the best defensive guards in the league. 

To me, that's the most significant piece of evidence for Rondo being an elite defensive player--other than, of course, my own eye test, which I realize that many will find unreliable. 

Nothing wrong with that. I don't think anyone's been saying that Westbrook has been a better defender over their respective careers, just last season.

[Celtics18]

^ Fair enough. That's a bold supposition, I think.

And, D.o.s,

As far as the defense thing goes; if you want to make the claim that Westbrook's better DRtg for this season makes him a better overall defensive player than Rondo, or, more importantly, assures that he will be a better defensive player going forward, then go ahead.

It's flimsy, though.  I'm sure you are aware of that.  Using statistics to try to determine who is a better offensive player is difficult enough (as this thread has contributed to proving), but trying to do it for defense is even hazier. 

It's why I actually put a lot of weight into the All Defense awards.  Unlike the other major awards, it is voted on by the coaches.  I kind of trust the coaches who have to game plan against the other team to be the best judges out there of who makes the largest defensive impact on games. 

Up until his knee injury, the coaches consistently chose Rajon Rondo as one of the best defensive guards in the league. 

To me, that's the most significant piece of evidence for Rondo being an elite defensive player--other than, of course, my own eye test, which I realize that many will find unreliable. 

Nothing wrong with that. I don't think anyone's been saying that Westbrook has been a better defender over their respective careers, just last season.

Fair enough, Westbrook was a better defender this past season.  That's kind of way off point, though, and in my opinion not a very strong argument for wanting to trade Rondo for Westbrook.

And, I don't think my supposition that the Celtics will make enough improvements this off-season to be a playoff contender in the weak East is all that bold a supposition. 

[D.o.s.]

I don't think the Celtics have enough wiggle room to bring in the kind of players it'll take to be better than the Hawks or the Bobcats next year.

[Celtics18]

I don't think the Celtics have enough wiggle room to bring in the kind of players it'll take to be better than the Hawks or the Bobcats next year.

Ahh, just a healthy Rondo to start the season, our first round draft picks, and a bit of natural improvement from our youngsters ought to be enough to at least be in contention with those teams even if Danny does nothing else.

I do, however, expect Danny to make some additional moves to try to improve the team.  They may not be huge, blockbuster moves, but I'm expecting to see a more balanced and competitive roster next season. 

[BballTim]

I think that Rondo's D will improve with better teammates, for sure. As to the All-Star thing:

 All-Star Votes from last year:

 1. Dwyane Wade (Mia) 929,542
2. Kyrie Irving (Cle) 860,221
3. John Wall (Was) 393,129
4. Derrick Rose (Chi) 359,546
5. Ray Allen (Mia) 250,909
6. Rajon Rondo (Bos) 174,654
http://www.insidehoops.com/all-star-voting-results.shtml#oOVvlHU0ZabQuzpu.99

West Coast:
 1. Stephen Curry (GS) 1,047,281
 2. Kobe Bryant (LAL) 988,884
3. Chris Paul (LAC) 804,309
 4. Jeremy Lin (Hou) 628,818
5. James Harden (Hou) 470,381
6. Russell Westbrook (OKC) 317,338


And 2012:
Derrick Rose (Chi) 1,514,723
Dwyane Wade (Mia) 1,334,223;
Rajon Rondo (Bos) 547,110;
Ray Allen (Bos) 382,147;
Deron Williams (NJN) 208,697;
Jose Calderon (Tor) 132,167;
Richard Hamilton (Chi) 111,368;
John Wall (Was) 96,606;
Kyrie Irving (Cle) 96,346;
Joe Johnson (Atl) 66,145.

http://www.nba.com/2012/allstar/2012/02/02/starters-release/index.html

Pretty much any player's fanbase is predicated on them being on a winning team. Rondo's no different, especially when you're talking about something as fickle as the all-star voting process.

  That seems reasonable if you don't understand that not playing until Jan 16th because of a knee injury (and not playing decent ball until February) will have an impact on voting. The Celts were a .500 or so team in 2013 and Rondo was voted a starter. Fans aren't as fickle as you think.

[pokeKingCurtis]

I don't think the Celtics have enough wiggle room to bring in the kind of players it'll take to be better than the Hawks or the Bobcats next year.

The Bucks were supposed to be good this year so who knows.

The Pacers don't look to hot either.

Certainly rooting for both the Hawks and the Bobcats, though, next year, as long as there's no conflict of interest for me.

Edit: Also, the Bobcats I'd say have been outperforming expectations. In a sport where you field 5 players, while becoming better might not be easy, it could certainly come suddenly.

[D.o.s.]

I think that Rondo's D will improve with better teammates, for sure. As to the All-Star thing:

 All-Star Votes from last year:

 1. Dwyane Wade (Mia) 929,542
2. Kyrie Irving (Cle) 860,221
3. John Wall (Was) 393,129
4. Derrick Rose (Chi) 359,546
5. Ray Allen (Mia) 250,909
6. Rajon Rondo (Bos) 174,654
http://www.insidehoops.com/all-star-voting-results.shtml#oOVvlHU0ZabQuzpu.99

West Coast:
 1. Stephen Curry (GS) 1,047,281
 2. Kobe Bryant (LAL) 988,884
3. Chris Paul (LAC) 804,309
 4. Jeremy Lin (Hou) 628,818
5. James Harden (Hou) 470,381
6. Russell Westbrook (OKC) 317,338


And 2012:
Derrick Rose (Chi) 1,514,723
Dwyane Wade (Mia) 1,334,223;
Rajon Rondo (Bos) 547,110;
Ray Allen (Bos) 382,147;
Deron Williams (NJN) 208,697;
Jose Calderon (Tor) 132,167;
Richard Hamilton (Chi) 111,368;
John Wall (Was) 96,606;
Kyrie Irving (Cle) 96,346;
Joe Johnson (Atl) 66,145.

http://www.nba.com/2012/allstar/2012/02/02/starters-release/index.html

Pretty much any player's fanbase is predicated on them being on a winning team. Rondo's no different, especially when you're talking about something as fickle as the all-star voting process.

  That seems reasonable if you don't understand that not playing until Jan 16th because of a knee injury (and not playing decent ball until February) will have an impact on voting. The Celts were a .500 or so team in 2013 and Rondo was voted a starter. Fans aren't as fickle as you think.

That's true, he pulled down 900,000 something votes in 2013. However, to take that in a different direction Kobe Bryant was voted in as a starter this year despite his knee injury -- as was Yao Ming a few years back. Injured players get voted in to the All-Star Game all the time despite, you know, not being able to play.

I submit that Rondo's spike and fall in popularity over that span has more to do with the Celtics officially closing the window on the KG/Pierce era -- and my guess is that Rondo will be much closer to the ~150 thousand votes he got this year than the ~900 thousand votes he got in 2013.

[BballTim]

I think that Rondo's D will improve with better teammates, for sure. As to the All-Star thing:

 All-Star Votes from last year:

 1. Dwyane Wade (Mia) 929,542
2. Kyrie Irving (Cle) 860,221
3. John Wall (Was) 393,129
4. Derrick Rose (Chi) 359,546
5. Ray Allen (Mia) 250,909
6. Rajon Rondo (Bos) 174,654
http://www.insidehoops.com/all-star-voting-results.shtml#oOVvlHU0ZabQuzpu.99

West Coast:
 1. Stephen Curry (GS) 1,047,281
 2. Kobe Bryant (LAL) 988,884
3. Chris Paul (LAC) 804,309
 4. Jeremy Lin (Hou) 628,818
5. James Harden (Hou) 470,381
6. Russell Westbrook (OKC) 317,338


And 2012:
Derrick Rose (Chi) 1,514,723
Dwyane Wade (Mia) 1,334,223;
Rajon Rondo (Bos) 547,110;
Ray Allen (Bos) 382,147;
Deron Williams (NJN) 208,697;
Jose Calderon (Tor) 132,167;
Richard Hamilton (Chi) 111,368;
John Wall (Was) 96,606;
Kyrie Irving (Cle) 96,346;
Joe Johnson (Atl) 66,145.

http://www.nba.com/2012/allstar/2012/02/02/starters-release/index.html

Pretty much any player's fanbase is predicated on them being on a winning team. Rondo's no different, especially when you're talking about something as fickle as the all-star voting process.

  That seems reasonable if you don't understand that not playing until Jan 16th because of a knee injury (and not playing decent ball until February) will have an impact on voting. The Celts were a .500 or so team in 2013 and Rondo was voted a starter. Fans aren't as fickle as you think.

That's true, he pulled down 900,000 something votes in 2013. However, to take that in a different direction Kobe Bryant was voted in as a starter this year despite his knee injury -- as was Yao Ming a few years back. Injured players get voted in to the All-Star Game all the time despite, you know, not being able to play.

I submit that Rondo's spike and fall in popularity over that span has more to do with the Celtics officially closing the window on the KG/Pierce era -- and my guess is that Rondo will be much closer to the ~150 thousand votes he got this year than the ~900 thousand votes he got in 2013.

  You'd have to wonder how many of Yao's votes came from China. And look at this year's Lakers team, I think you're undercutting your whole "fans are fickle and won't vote for players on bad teams" argument. I'm somewhat under the impression that you made your original claims based on having no idea how Rondo and Westbrook generally fared in the voting. In any case, it's probably more likely that Rondo gets voted  onto an all-star team than Westbrook because he's done so before and Westbrook hasn't come close to it. Good luck with that claim.

[Moranis]

Westbrook is also an All-Star. He also played better defense last season. Westbrook is much more likely to make another All-Star team before Rondo.

Explain "generates similar amounts of offense." Be detailed when you say "inefficient" Otherwise the first is a throwaway statement and the second is basically "westbrook shoots too much", which isn't anything beyond a subjective measuring of what you think a point guard should be doing presented as an objective reason why Rondo would improve the team's offense.

  "generates a similar amount of offense" would refer to scoring and assists. "Westbrook shoots too much" is probably based on the fact that he takes so many shots compared to teammates who generally score more efficiently than he does. That doesn't concern you at all, it does some people.

well sure, but Rondo doesn't generate a similar amount of offense based on their career numbers and he certainly didn't this last year either.  I mean even if you look at per36 career numbers, Rondo is no where near the similar amount of offense generator that Westbrook is.  When you look at TS%, even there you see that Westbrook is over a full percentage more efficient than Rondo. 

That is what DOS is getting at with EJA.  EJA is just making this broad statements that just aren't supported in reality.  Westbrook is more efficient and generates a much larger amount of offense on the whole throughout their respective careers.

  In general it's not more efficient offense because scoring chances off of assists are more efficient scoring chances than Westbrook shooting the ball. I checked OKC's playoff games over the last 4 years. They're 10-5 when Westbrook gets 7 or more assists and 11-14 when he takes 20 or more shots. There's a reason for that.

/thread

Tim has made this comment before and it still carries weight now with numbers to back it up. In the playoffs(that is to say when you're not facing Minnesota or Detroit every other night) Westbrook's game is not conducive to long term winning. You can put up great numbers and show great efficiency. I don't have a stat-based argument to share so people may choose to dismiss it but If Westbrook isn't hitting his jumpers there is little other way he beats you and against good teams in the playoffs, I think that's a recipe for losing. He makes bad decisions in close games. While doesn't have the gaudy numbers, give this guy a couple of good, talented teammates and he'll make your life a living hell.

This season's playoffs.  Game 1 win - neither; Game 2 loss - assists; Game 3 loss - shots; Game 4 win - both.

Last Year just 2 games they won both one was assists, one was shots. 

2011-12 - They won their first 6 games - he had neither 3 times, shots twice, assists once.  Lost game 7 neither.  Won games 8 & 9 shots both times.  Lost games 10 and 11 - had both once, shots the other.  won the next 5 games had both twice, assists once, and neither twice.  They lost the last 4 games against the Heat shots twice, both once, neither once.

So it seems there isn't really much to this whole assists vs. shots thing, much more about who the Thunder played than anything.

[Eja117]

Westbrook is also an All-Star. He also played better defense last season. Westbrook is much more likely to make another All-Star team before Rondo.

Explain "generates similar amounts of offense." Be detailed when you say "inefficient" Otherwise the first is a throwaway statement and the second is basically "westbrook shoots too much", which isn't anything beyond a subjective measuring of what you think a point guard should be doing presented as an objective reason why Rondo would improve the team's offense.


John Stockton would definitely make the Thunder better. Rondo's no John Stockton, he's not even the best point guard in the league. I still like his game more than Westbrook's.

You have been very strict about insisting that posters are "showing their work."  Could you please show the work that suggest that Westbrook "played better defense last season" than Rondo and that "Westbrook is much more likely to make another All-Star team before Rondo."

Sure -- Westbrook posted an individual defensive rating of 102 and had a defensive win share of 2.3 this year, while Rondo had a DRtg of 107 and a defensive wins share of 1.0


Notice the difference between that and "do you even watch basketball? Obviously Westbrook had a better year than Rondo, that's like saying Spiderman shoots better webs than The Human Torch!"

As for the All-Star Game -- Rondo could make it as a reserve, but Westbrook will be a starter, and the East looks to be seriously crowded at the point guard between Irving, Williams, and Wall.

I'm also pretty amused that almost everyone else seems to be happy to provide numbers, regardless of which side you fall on in this debate. I'm not asking them to show their work, you know?

Right, but when you repeatedly show the work and it becomes clear you're dealing with selective reading vision that sorta leads you to the super hero comparisons.

BTW I completely accept that Spiderman shoots better webs than the Human Torch. I do not require you to show your work on that.  Also Rondo is a better passer than Westbrook. Being a better passer helps your teammates.

[PhoSita]

This whole debate brings to mind an article on Grantland about "chuckers" from a couple years back.  In particular, the part about Danny Granger's role in Indiana, and the effect his absence (due to injury) had on the team:

Now Granger is gone, and the Pacers? offense is a complete mess. Roy Hibbert can?t hit anything, Paul George has floundered under a heavier burden, and the Pacers have morphed from a low-turnover team into one throwing the ball all over the place.

Pinning all of this on Granger being gone is too much, obviously; his absence cannot explain Hibbert?s puzzling inability to hit a short hook shot (a nice performance against Washington on Monday notwithstanding). And Granger, despite still being a heavy-usage player last season, had begun shifting away from on-ball creation to more spot-up looks.

But he was still a high-usage guy whom opponents had to respect from long range. He soaked up a lot of shot attempts and tossed nice entry passes to Hibbert ? something with which the Pacers have struggled at times this season. Hibbert and George are getting a significantly higher percentage of their baskets via the unassisted route this season, per Hoopdata, and suffering for it.

Again: It?s not all Granger; he isn?t an elite passer or shooter for his position. But opponents don?t give Gerald Green or Lance Stephenson the same respect, cramping the floor, and that probably has a trickle-down effect on Indy?s offense. The turnovers are especially interesting; the Pacers are a great offensive rebounding team, and you can?t rebound a turnover. There is probably a measurable value in simply attempting a shot for a team like Indiana.

http://grantland.com/features/danny-granger-monta-ellis-jordan-crawford-nba-all-chuckers-squad/



Somebody posted statistics about the percentage of shots that Rondo's teammates hit this season compared to the percentage of shots that Westbrook's teammates shots. 

It is fair to wonder, how many more assists would Rondo have if his teammates had finished a higher percentage of his looks?

But it is also fair to wonder, how much lower would Westbrook's teammate's field goal percentage be without a player with such scoring ability and aggression on the floor with them, attracting the attention of defenders?


Offense is not created solely through passes directly to players ready to shoot, or through the shot attempts themselves.  We like to think that the game can be boiled down in that way, but as a 5-on-5 sport it really cannot be simplified as such. 

What can be said for sure is that in the past few seasons Westbrook has been a part of some of the most offensively potent 5 man units in the league.  Rondo has not.

[BballTim]

Westbrook is also an All-Star. He also played better defense last season. Westbrook is much more likely to make another All-Star team before Rondo.

Explain "generates similar amounts of offense." Be detailed when you say "inefficient" Otherwise the first is a throwaway statement and the second is basically "westbrook shoots too much", which isn't anything beyond a subjective measuring of what you think a point guard should be doing presented as an objective reason why Rondo would improve the team's offense.

  "generates a similar amount of offense" would refer to scoring and assists. "Westbrook shoots too much" is probably based on the fact that he takes so many shots compared to teammates who generally score more efficiently than he does. That doesn't concern you at all, it does some people.

well sure, but Rondo doesn't generate a similar amount of offense based on their career numbers and he certainly didn't this last year either.  I mean even if you look at per36 career numbers, Rondo is no where near the similar amount of offense generator that Westbrook is.  When you look at TS%, even there you see that Westbrook is over a full percentage more efficient than Rondo. 

That is what DOS is getting at with EJA.  EJA is just making this broad statements that just aren't supported in reality.  Westbrook is more efficient and generates a much larger amount of offense on the whole throughout their respective careers.

  In general it's not more efficient offense because scoring chances off of assists are more efficient scoring chances than Westbrook shooting the ball. I checked OKC's playoff games over the last 4 years. They're 10-5 when Westbrook gets 7 or more assists and 11-14 when he takes 20 or more shots. There's a reason for that.

/thread

Tim has made this comment before and it still carries weight now with numbers to back it up. In the playoffs(that is to say when you're not facing Minnesota or Detroit every other night) Westbrook's game is not conducive to long term winning. You can put up great numbers and show great efficiency. I don't have a stat-based argument to share so people may choose to dismiss it but If Westbrook isn't hitting his jumpers there is little other way he beats you and against good teams in the playoffs, I think that's a recipe for losing. He makes bad decisions in close games. While doesn't have the gaudy numbers, give this guy a couple of good, talented teammates and he'll make your life a living hell.

This season's playoffs.  Game 1 win - neither; Game 2 loss - assists; Game 3 loss - shots; Game 4 win - both.

Last Year just 2 games they won both one was assists, one was shots. 

2011-12 - They won their first 6 games - he had neither 3 times, shots twice, assists once.  Lost game 7 neither.  Won games 8 & 9 shots both times.  Lost games 10 and 11 - had both once, shots the other.  won the next 5 games had both twice, assists once, and neither twice.  They lost the last 4 games against the Heat shots twice, both once, neither once.

So it seems there isn't really much to this whole assists vs. shots thing, much more about who the Thunder played than anything.

  Whether there is or isn't much to it is pretty much unrelated to your listing out the individual games and then waiving your hand dismissively.

[BballTim]

This whole debate brings to mind an article on Grantland about "chuckers" from a couple years back.  In particular, the part about Danny Granger's role in Indiana, and the effect his absence (due to injury) had on the team:

Now Granger is gone, and the Pacers? offense is a complete mess. Roy Hibbert can?t hit anything, Paul George has floundered under a heavier burden, and the Pacers have morphed from a low-turnover team into one throwing the ball all over the place.

Pinning all of this on Granger being gone is too much, obviously; his absence cannot explain Hibbert?s puzzling inability to hit a short hook shot (a nice performance against Washington on Monday notwithstanding). And Granger, despite still being a heavy-usage player last season, had begun shifting away from on-ball creation to more spot-up looks.

But he was still a high-usage guy whom opponents had to respect from long range. He soaked up a lot of shot attempts and tossed nice entry passes to Hibbert ? something with which the Pacers have struggled at times this season. Hibbert and George are getting a significantly higher percentage of their baskets via the unassisted route this season, per Hoopdata, and suffering for it.

Again: It?s not all Granger; he isn?t an elite passer or shooter for his position. But opponents don?t give Gerald Green or Lance Stephenson the same respect, cramping the floor, and that probably has a trickle-down effect on Indy?s offense. The turnovers are especially interesting; the Pacers are a great offensive rebounding team, and you can?t rebound a turnover. There is probably a measurable value in simply attempting a shot for a team like Indiana.

http://grantland.com/features/danny-granger-monta-ellis-jordan-crawford-nba-all-chuckers-squad/



Somebody posted statistics about the percentage of shots that Rondo's teammates hit this season compared to the percentage of shots that Westbrook's teammates shots. 

It is fair to wonder, how many more assists would Rondo have if his teammates had finished a higher percentage of his looks?

But it is also fair to wonder, how much lower would Westbrook's teammate's field goal percentage be without a player with such scoring ability and aggression on the floor with them, attracting the attention of defenders?

  Westbrook is a slightly below average outside shooter who has a small percentage of his shots assisted. He doesn't get the ball back that often after he passes it on a given possession (from the player tracking data). He probably commands a lot of attention when he has the ball which would help the players he passes to when they shoot, but he's not exactly an assist machine. So he shoots a lot, passes for assist opportunities (sometimes), but aside from that he's not a great shooter and he's not really going to get a lot of passes. How much attention will someone like that get?

What can be said for sure is that in the past few seasons Westbrook has been a part of some of the most offensively potent 5 man units in the league.  Rondo has not.

  Sounds pretty definitive. I mean players like Fisher, Sefalosha, Perk and Collison have been part of great offenses when players like Kyrie Irving, Mike Conley, Marc Gasol and Greg Monroe haven't.