Say OKC gets booted , would they trade Westbrook for Rondo then ? and would you?

[Casperian]

TP to Rondohara for having a green heart. 

Make that double.

And honestly, you can't honestly look at posts by mmmmm, BballTim and many other users who defend Rondo and say it's blind, irrational fandom. They use stats and use stats reasonably. Their opinions are reasoned.

Then again, I'm on this board for 7 years now, and Tim has been proven wrong so many times, and 2 weeks later, will still act as if these discussions never happened, (and as if he actually won them), where it becomes pointless to even click on "login" and react to his fanboyism.

Nice guy, totally delusional when it comes to Rondo.

[Celtics18]

Westbrook is also an All-Star. He also played better defense last season. Westbrook is much more likely to make another All-Star team before Rondo.

Explain "generates similar amounts of offense." Be detailed when you say "inefficient" Otherwise the first is a throwaway statement and the second is basically "westbrook shoots too much", which isn't anything beyond a subjective measuring of what you think a point guard should be doing presented as an objective reason why Rondo would improve the team's offense.


John Stockton would definitely make the Thunder better. Rondo's no John Stockton, he's not even the best point guard in the league. I still like his game more than Westbrook's.

You have been very strict about insisting that posters are "showing their work."  Could you please show the work that suggest that Westbrook "played better defense last season" than Rondo and that "Westbrook is much more likely to make another All-Star team before Rondo."

Sure -- Westbrook posted an individual defensive rating of 102 and had a defensive win share of 2.3 this year, while Rondo had a DRtg of 107 and a defensive wins share of 1.0


Notice the difference between that and "do you even watch basketball? Obviously Westbrook had a better year than Rondo, that's like saying Spiderman shoots better webs than The Human Torch!"

As for the All-Star Game -- Rondo could make it as a reserve, but Westbrook will be a starter, and the East looks to be seriously crowded at the point guard between Irving, Williams, and Wall.

I'm also pretty amused that almost everyone else seems to be happy to provide numbers, regardless of which side you fall on in this debate. I'm not asking them to show their work, you know?

Fair enough, if you are using defensive rating and defensive win shares as your measure for who is a better defender, then Westbrook gets the nod for this past season.  However, Rondo has been a better defender overall for his career, going by those numbers.

As to your opinion on the All Star game, you've hardly provided anything resembling hard evidence there.  As a matter of fact, I think most would agree that the competition to be an All Star guard will be stronger in the West.  Paul, Curry, Lillard, Parker, in my opinion, will provide more of a challenge than the guys you mentioned from the East.  Also, Harden and Bryant, although not point guards, will be vying for All Star spots as guards. 

That's not even mentioning some of the dark horse candidates like Dragic, Conley, Lawson and Bledsoe.

Yeah, the road to being an All Star will be tougher for Westbrook.   

[Celtics18]

Westbrook is also an All-Star. He also played better defense last season. Westbrook is much more likely to make another All-Star team before Rondo.

Explain "generates similar amounts of offense." Be detailed when you say "inefficient" Otherwise the first is a throwaway statement and the second is basically "westbrook shoots too much", which isn't anything beyond a subjective measuring of what you think a point guard should be doing presented as an objective reason why Rondo would improve the team's offense.

  "generates a similar amount of offense" would refer to scoring and assists. "Westbrook shoots too much" is probably based on the fact that he takes so many shots compared to teammates who generally score more efficiently than he does. That doesn't concern you at all, it does some people.

well sure, but Rondo doesn't generate a similar amount of offense based on their career numbers and he certainly didn't this last year either.  I mean even if you look at per36 career numbers, Rondo is no where near the similar amount of offense generator that Westbrook is.  When you look at TS%, even there you see that Westbrook is over a full percentage more efficient than Rondo. 

That is what DOS is getting at with EJA.  EJA is just making this broad statements that just aren't supported in reality.  Westbrook is more efficient and generates a much larger amount of offense on the whole throughout their respective careers.

I don't think there's an easy answer to the question of who generates more offense, but if you just look at basic stats of points per game and assists per game (assists per game would be doubled and then have the amount of assists leading to threes per game added to reflect how many actual points each assist helps lead to), then Rajon Rondo and Russell Westbrook are fairly close in the amount of offense generated.

Not including 2014 (mainly because I got these stats from Hoopdata, which didn't keep stats for this season), here are the respective "points generated" by Rondo and Westbrook over the course of the last five regular seasons:

2013

Rondo--37.8
Westbrook--39.6

2012

Rondo--37.8
Westbrook--36.2

2011

Rondo--35.2
Westbrook--40.0

2010

Rondo--35.6
Westbrook--33.8

2009

Rondo--30.5
Westbrook--26.8

Like I said, I realize these numbers don't tell the whole story.  I don't think there are any that do.  I am interested to know, though, which stats you used that tell you that Rondo generates "nowhere near" the amount of offense as Westbrook over the course of their respective careers.

  Don't forget the playoffs. I didn't do a year by year, but since 2009 Westbrook's generated 36.9 ppg, Rondo comes in at 40.1. So Rondo's better than his regular season average, Westbrook goes down somewhat.

Thanks.  I couldn't find those numbers as easily for the playoffs, but I suspected that Rondo would have the edge. 

[Roy H.]

There have been several instances of people labeling / calling out other posters.  As most of you know, that violates our rules.  Debate a poster's ideas, but don't label or attack that poster personally.

[Casperian]

There have been several instances of people labeling / calling out other posters.  As most of you know, that violates our rules.  Debate a poster's ideas, but don't label or attack that poster personally.

Pff, if only this was enforced when I was attacked for two years.

You guys do net even react when I click on "report to a moderator". This forum is clearly suffering from a severe case of "forum sickness", where everybody is concerned with their "credibility" on the interwebs in front of their forum buddies. "I always maintained", "people around here know me", "I told you so", yadda yadda yadda.

You can put that in green font. Freakin' clique mentality.

[BballTim]

TP to Rondohara for having a green heart. 

Make that double.

And honestly, you can't honestly look at posts by mmmmm, BballTim and many other users who defend Rondo and say it's blind, irrational fandom. They use stats and use stats reasonably. Their opinions are reasoned.

Then again, I'm on this board for 7 years now, and Tim has been proven wrong so many times, and 2 weeks later, will still act as if these discussions never happened, (and as if he actually won them), where it becomes pointless to even click on "login" and react to his fanboyism.

Nice guy, totally delusional when it comes to Rondo.

   I think you have a hard time differentiating between "someone said something I agree with" and "that statement proved the other side wrong". Consider the discussion we were having here. D.o.s. thinks that OKC would be better with Westbrook than Rondo, I think the opposite. I can disagree with him but I can't prove he's wrong and he can't prove he's right. Some claims that are made can be disputed when the stats show the opposite happens (IIRC you've made some of those) but in general we're discussing hypotheticals.

[D.o.s.]

Westbrook is also an All-Star. He also played better defense last season. Westbrook is much more likely to make another All-Star team before Rondo.

Explain "generates similar amounts of offense." Be detailed when you say "inefficient" Otherwise the first is a throwaway statement and the second is basically "westbrook shoots too much", which isn't anything beyond a subjective measuring of what you think a point guard should be doing presented as an objective reason why Rondo would improve the team's offense.


John Stockton would definitely make the Thunder better. Rondo's no John Stockton, he's not even the best point guard in the league. I still like his game more than Westbrook's.

You have been very strict about insisting that posters are "showing their work."  Could you please show the work that suggest that Westbrook "played better defense last season" than Rondo and that "Westbrook is much more likely to make another All-Star team before Rondo."

Sure -- Westbrook posted an individual defensive rating of 102 and had a defensive win share of 2.3 this year, while Rondo had a DRtg of 107 and a defensive wins share of 1.0


Notice the difference between that and "do you even watch basketball? Obviously Westbrook had a better year than Rondo, that's like saying Spiderman shoots better webs than The Human Torch!"

As for the All-Star Game -- Rondo could make it as a reserve, but Westbrook will be a starter, and the East looks to be seriously crowded at the point guard between Irving, Williams, and Wall.

I'm also pretty amused that almost everyone else seems to be happy to provide numbers, regardless of which side you fall on in this debate. I'm not asking them to show their work, you know?

Fair enough, if you are using defensive rating and defensive win shares as your measure for who is a better defender, then Westbrook gets the nod for this past season.  However, Rondo has been a better defender overall for his career, going by those numbers.

As to your opinion on the All Star game, you've hardly provided anything resembling hard evidence there.  As a matter of fact, I think most would agree that the competition to be an All Star guard will be stronger in the West.  Paul, Curry, Lillard, Parker, in my opinion, will provide more of a challenge than the guys you mentioned from the East.  Also, Harden and Bryant, although not point guards, will be vying for All Star spots as guards. 

That's not even mentioning some of the dark horse candidates like Dragic, Conley, Lawson and Bledsoe.

Yeah, the road to being an All Star will be tougher for Westbrook.   

Right -- Rondo's had a better defensive career than Westbrook -- my suspicion is that his excellent defensive numbers were lifted from "good" to "all-defense" by virtue of playing with KG.

Westbrook is going to have the advantage that he plays for a massively marketed, winning franchise -- you're right, though, there are a larger number of good guards in the West.

Rondo's biggest hurdle is going to be whether or not the Celtics are playing well. Westbrook's biggest hurdle is going to be amassing more votes than his contemporaries -- outside of CP3 and Curry, I think he's got that in the bag.

 D.o.s. thinks that OKC would be better with Westbrook than Rondo, I think the opposite. I can disagree with him but I can't prove he's wrong and he can't prove he's right. Some claims that are made can be disputed when the stats show the opposite happens (IIRC you've made some of those) but in general we're discussing hypotheticals.

+1.

[BballTim]

Westbrook is also an All-Star. He also played better defense last season. Westbrook is much more likely to make another All-Star team before Rondo.

Explain "generates similar amounts of offense." Be detailed when you say "inefficient" Otherwise the first is a throwaway statement and the second is basically "westbrook shoots too much", which isn't anything beyond a subjective measuring of what you think a point guard should be doing presented as an objective reason why Rondo would improve the team's offense.


John Stockton would definitely make the Thunder better. Rondo's no John Stockton, he's not even the best point guard in the league. I still like his game more than Westbrook's.

You have been very strict about insisting that posters are "showing their work."  Could you please show the work that suggest that Westbrook "played better defense last season" than Rondo and that "Westbrook is much more likely to make another All-Star team before Rondo."

Sure -- Westbrook posted an individual defensive rating of 102 and had a defensive win share of 2.3 this year, while Rondo had a DRtg of 107 and a defensive wins share of 1.0


Notice the difference between that and "do you even watch basketball? Obviously Westbrook had a better year than Rondo, that's like saying Spiderman shoots better webs than The Human Torch!"

As for the All-Star Game -- Rondo could make it as a reserve, but Westbrook will be a starter, and the East looks to be seriously crowded at the point guard between Irving, Williams, and Wall.

I'm also pretty amused that almost everyone else seems to be happy to provide numbers, regardless of which side you fall on in this debate. I'm not asking them to show their work, you know?

Fair enough, if you are using defensive rating and defensive win shares as your measure for who is a better defender, then Westbrook gets the nod for this past season.  However, Rondo has been a better defender overall for his career, going by those numbers.

As to your opinion on the All Star game, you've hardly provided anything resembling hard evidence there.  As a matter of fact, I think most would agree that the competition to be an All Star guard will be stronger in the West.  Paul, Curry, Lillard, Parker, in my opinion, will provide more of a challenge than the guys you mentioned from the East.  Also, Harden and Bryant, although not point guards, will be vying for All Star spots as guards. 

That's not even mentioning some of the dark horse candidates like Dragic, Conley, Lawson and Bledsoe.

Yeah, the road to being an All Star will be tougher for Westbrook.   

Right -- Rondo's had a better defensive career than Westbrook -- my suspicion is that his excellent defensive numbers were lifted from "good" to "all-defense" by virtue of playing with KG.

Westbrook is going to have the advantage that he plays for a massively marketed, winning franchise -- you're right, though, there are a larger number of good guards in the West.

Rondo's biggest hurdle is going to be whether or not the Celtics are playing well. Westbrook's biggest hurdle is going to be amassing more votes than his contemporaries -- outside of CP3 and Curry, I think he's got that in the bag.

  In the bag's a little strong, he's never finished higher than 5th in the voting.

[Celtics18]

Right -- Rondo's had a better defensive career than Westbrook -- my suspicion is that his excellent defensive numbers were lifted from "good" to "all-defense" by virtue of playing with KG.

Westbrook is going to have the advantage that he plays for a massively marketed, winning franchise -- you're right, though, there are a larger number of good guards in the West.

Rondo's biggest hurdle is going to be whether or not the Celtics are playing well. Westbrook's biggest hurdle is going to be amassing more votes than his contemporaries -- outside of CP3 and Curry, I think he's got that in the bag.

I'm sure that Rondo's DRtg numbers benefitted greatly from playing with Kevin Garnett and that stingy Celtics defense.  I also have no doubt that Rajon Rondo was a very crucial part of that stingy defense.  Coaches don't vote for All Defensive team (at least, I don't think they do) based on a player's DRtg numbers.  I believe they vote based on what kind of problems players cause on the defensive end when they have to go up against them. 

Unfortunately, it's hard to accurately measure defensive impact based on numbers.  I also think that being a very good to great defensive player is kind of a waste on a team that isn't very good defensively.  I think that's particularly true for guards, who rarely impact the game defensively in the same way that bigs can.

On the other hand, when you have a defensive big man like Kevin Garnett or Serge Ibaka, having a guard who is elite at gambling in passing lanes, getting steals and deflections, and generally disrupting flow up top is extremely valuable. 

Sure, that guard will make mistakes.  That's where it's great to have a Perk and a Garnett to help erase those mistakes.   I actually think that both Westbrook and Rondo are two of the top guards in the league at providing that kind of disruptive defense at the point of attack.

I also happen to think that if Danny can get some legitimate help in the middle for next year (it's not going to be a thirty year old Kevin Garnett), that we will see Rondo's defensive impact come back to the forefront of what makes him such a valuable player.

As to the All Star thing, I think you underrate Rondo's global popularity.  If he's healthy and playing at top Rondo level to start next season (and Danny has improved the team enough to be hovering around .500 and legitimate playoff contention), Rajon has a very good shot to get voted into the All Star game by the fans. 

I actually think he's a bigger name than any of Williams, Wall, and Irving, even after having not played for almost a full season worth of basketball and then coming back for an extended rehabilitation run on a lottery team.   

 

[D.o.s.]

I think that Rondo's D will improve with better teammates, for sure. As to the All-Star thing:

 All-Star Votes from last year:

 1. Dwyane Wade (Mia) 929,542
2. Kyrie Irving (Cle) 860,221
3. John Wall (Was) 393,129
4. Derrick Rose (Chi) 359,546
5. Ray Allen (Mia) 250,909
6. Rajon Rondo (Bos) 174,654
http://www.insidehoops.com/all-star-voting-results.shtml#oOVvlHU0ZabQuzpu.99

West Coast:
 1. Stephen Curry (GS) 1,047,281
 2. Kobe Bryant (LAL) 988,884
3. Chris Paul (LAC) 804,309
 4. Jeremy Lin (Hou) 628,818
5. James Harden (Hou) 470,381
6. Russell Westbrook (OKC) 317,338


And 2012:
Derrick Rose (Chi) 1,514,723
Dwyane Wade (Mia) 1,334,223;
Rajon Rondo (Bos) 547,110;
Ray Allen (Bos) 382,147;
Deron Williams (NJN) 208,697;
Jose Calderon (Tor) 132,167;
Richard Hamilton (Chi) 111,368;
John Wall (Was) 96,606;
Kyrie Irving (Cle) 96,346;
Joe Johnson (Atl) 66,145.

http://www.nba.com/2012/allstar/2012/02/02/starters-release/index.html

Pretty much any player's fanbase is predicated on them being on a winning team. Rondo's no different, especially when you're talking about something as fickle as the all-star voting process.

[D.o.s.]

  In the bag's a little strong, he's never finished higher than 5th in the voting.

Fair point -- I assume he'll be behind Curry and Paul but ahead of Lawson, Lillard, etc.

[GreenWarrior]

after seeing that game last night with okc vs Memphis. I can honestly say i'll stick with rondo or look elsewhere for a replacement. westbrook is not a pg, he's a 2 in a 1 body - DON'T LIKE THOSE PLAYERS...they're a waste of time, let them be somebody else's problem. we don't need a SG playing PG!   

[D.o.s.]

after seeing that game last night with okc vs Memphis. I can honestly say i'll stick with rondo or look elsewhere for a replacement. westbrook is not a pg, he's a 2 in a 1 body - DON'T LIKE THOSE PLAYERS...they're a waste of time, let them be somebody else's problem. we don't need a SG playing PG!

Durant and Westbrook both played terribly last night -- I hope Reggie Jackson doesn't have to pick up a tab for the rest of their playoff run.

[Celtics18]

I think that Rondo's D will improve with better teammates, for sure. As to the All-Star thing:

 All-Star Votes from last year:

 1. Dwyane Wade (Mia) 929,542
2. Kyrie Irving (Cle) 860,221
3. John Wall (Was) 393,129
4. Derrick Rose (Chi) 359,546
5. Ray Allen (Mia) 250,909
6. Rajon Rondo (Bos) 174,654
http://www.insidehoops.com/all-star-voting-results.shtml#oOVvlHU0ZabQuzpu.99

West Coast:
 1. Stephen Curry (GS) 1,047,281
 2. Kobe Bryant (LAL) 988,884
3. Chris Paul (LAC) 804,309
 4. Jeremy Lin (Hou) 628,818
5. James Harden (Hou) 470,381
6. Russell Westbrook (OKC) 317,338


And 2012:
Derrick Rose (Chi) 1,514,723
Dwyane Wade (Mia) 1,334,223;
Rajon Rondo (Bos) 547,110;
Ray Allen (Bos) 382,147;
Deron Williams (NJN) 208,697;
Jose Calderon (Tor) 132,167;
Richard Hamilton (Chi) 111,368;
John Wall (Was) 96,606;
Kyrie Irving (Cle) 96,346;
Joe Johnson (Atl) 66,145.

http://www.nba.com/2012/allstar/2012/02/02/starters-release/index.html

Pretty much any player's fanbase is predicated on them being on a winning team. Rondo's no different, especially when you're talking about something as fickle as the all-star voting process.

This does nothing to support your argument that Russell Westbrook will garner more fan votes than Rondo.  The only year that Westbrook has gotten more votes is this past season when Rondo played in a total of 10 games before the All Star break. 

Otherwise, Rondo has consistently outpaced Westbrook by a wide margin in voting for All Star game starter.  For example, in 2013--the year after Westbrook's team made the NBA finals--Rondo got well over twice as many votes as Westbrook.

[D.o.s.]

I think that Rondo's D will improve with better teammates, for sure. As to the All-Star thing:

 All-Star Votes from last year:

 1. Dwyane Wade (Mia) 929,542
2. Kyrie Irving (Cle) 860,221
3. John Wall (Was) 393,129
4. Derrick Rose (Chi) 359,546
5. Ray Allen (Mia) 250,909
6. Rajon Rondo (Bos) 174,654
http://www.insidehoops.com/all-star-voting-results.shtml#oOVvlHU0ZabQuzpu.99

West Coast:
 1. Stephen Curry (GS) 1,047,281
 2. Kobe Bryant (LAL) 988,884
3. Chris Paul (LAC) 804,309
 4. Jeremy Lin (Hou) 628,818
5. James Harden (Hou) 470,381
6. Russell Westbrook (OKC) 317,338


And 2012:
Derrick Rose (Chi) 1,514,723
Dwyane Wade (Mia) 1,334,223;
Rajon Rondo (Bos) 547,110;
Ray Allen (Bos) 382,147;
Deron Williams (NJN) 208,697;
Jose Calderon (Tor) 132,167;
Richard Hamilton (Chi) 111,368;
John Wall (Was) 96,606;
Kyrie Irving (Cle) 96,346;
Joe Johnson (Atl) 66,145.

http://www.nba.com/2012/allstar/2012/02/02/starters-release/index.html

Pretty much any player's fanbase is predicated on them being on a winning team. Rondo's no different, especially when you're talking about something as fickle as the all-star voting process.

This does nothing to support your argument that Russell Westbrook will garner more fan votes than Rondo.  The only year that Westbrook has gotten more votes is this past season when Rondo played in a total of 10 games before the All Star break. 

Otherwise, Rondo has consistently outpaced Westbrook by a wide margin in voting for All Star game starter.  For example, in 2013--the year after Westbrook's team made the NBA finals--Rondo got well over twice as many votes as Westbrook.

Pretty much any player's fanbase is predicated on them being on a winning team. Rondo's no different, especially when you're talking about something as fickle as the all-star voting process.