Author Topic: Jazz (7-8) at Celtics (9-6) Game#16 11/17/18  (Read 29846 times)

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Re: Jazz (7-8) at Celtics (9-6) Game#16 11/17/18
« Reply #390 on: November 17, 2018, 10:41:14 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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what is BB1Q?

Basketball IQ,

Thanks.... I think you either understand the game or you do not. Brown makes boneheaded plays and misses too many layups. Is that low BB1Q? I dunno seems like lack of execution. Brown is smart enough, he just is not a good shooter. I do not think you need any special IQ for BB.

Re: Jazz (7-8) at Celtics (9-6) Game#16 11/17/18
« Reply #391 on: November 17, 2018, 10:47:50 PM »

Offline gouki88

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For you guys that are killing Rozier and Brown, have you seen that Tatum has been tentative, inconsistent and forcing mid range jumpers this year. Have you noticed that Brown is actually playing better defense than Smart. Did you see Morris, Smart, Hayward, and Horford we're as bad or invisible as Brown and Rozier tonight and Smart and Morris had worse +/- than Brown tonight in less minutes.

Yeah, you guys love harping on the same players because they are struggling in the early season as they learn to take on completely different roles, but the fact is the only players producing regularly on the whole team is Morris and Kyrie. That's it. Everyone else has been inconsistent and performing below their career norms.

Yeah, outside of a few games, this just isn't true. He did as good as one can on Kawhi last night, but that's kind of the problem - that's the only time he shows up as a defender. When he has a big matchup individually, he's generally pretty good at staying with him and making things difficult for him, but similar to Rozier he is a mess when he's off the ball defensively, as he has no sense of how to play help defense or off the ball team defense, which are major factors in good basketball defenders and why players like Smart and Horford are so valuable defensively.

Mitchell made him look silly when he was on him tonight.

EDIT: Also, posters here (me especially) are highly sensitive to those with low BBIQ, which not coincidentally fits both Rozier and Brown perfectly, as neither of them have even average BBIQs, especially Rozier.
With Jpotter wholeheartedly on this one
Yeah, there's about 5 guys on the site that say the same thing over and over again. It doesn't mean it's true. I don't know how anyone can see how Brown played as a rookie and how much he has improved his overall game and think this kid has a low BBIQ. I can't see how anyone could have watched Brown in the playoffs last year and think he has a low BBIQ. That is just astonishing to me.
It’s pretty obviously a sentiment that stems from his consistently bad decision making on offence, his routinely poor reads of opposition defences and his overall bad feel for the game and tendency to disappear completely.
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Re: Jazz (7-8) at Celtics (9-6) Game#16 11/17/18
« Reply #392 on: November 17, 2018, 10:49:21 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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For you guys that are killing Rozier and Brown, have you seen that Tatum has been tentative, inconsistent and forcing mid range jumpers this year. Have you noticed that Brown is actually playing better defense than Smart. Did you see Morris, Smart, Hayward, and Horford we're as bad or invisible as Brown and Rozier tonight and Smart and Morris had worse +/- than Brown tonight in less minutes.

Yeah, you guys love harping on the same players because they are struggling in the early season as they learn to take on completely different roles, but the fact is the only players producing regularly on the whole team is Morris and Kyrie. That's it. Everyone else has been inconsistent and performing below their career norms.

Yeah, outside of a few games, this just isn't true. He did as good as one can on Kawhi last night, but that's kind of the problem - that's the only time he shows up as a defender. When he has a big matchup individually, he's generally pretty good at staying with him and making things difficult for him, but similar to Rozier he is a mess when he's off the ball defensively, as he has no sense of how to play help defense or off the ball team defense, which are major factors in good basketball defenders and why players like Smart and Horford are so valuable defensively.

Mitchell made him look silly when he was on him tonight.

EDIT: Also, posters here (me especially) are highly sensitive to those with low BBIQ, which not coincidentally fits both Rozier and Brown perfectly, as neither of them have even average BBIQs, especially Rozier.
Yeah, one, you're wrong about Jaylen's defense, he has been this team's best defender. After the first few minutes of each half, he wasn't even on Mitchell tonight. In the first 4 minutes of this game he shut down Mitchell and forced Utah to miss two layups because of his defensive pressure on the drive. Then he went to the bench and didn't come back until the second quarter.

Also, you are completely wrong about his basketball IQ. Players with low BBIQs don't play great defense, aren't the best cutters off the ball on the team, don't improve their handle every year he is in the league, doesn't improve his passing off the drive as much as he has, doesn't miss defensive switches at all. He is doing what he is coached to do....shoot the open three when you have it and be aggressive to the basket and pass to the open shooter on the outside when the drive isn't able to be finished.

I'm legitimately awe-struck that anyone can watch Brown and think his BBIQ is adequate.

1) He's a pretty good individual defender, though I wouldn't say great. But he's primarily an individual defender, not a team defender, which is largely due to his measurables and athleticism. He's completely lost off the ball. Watch him the next game; he regularly gets caught watching the ball and loses his man, along with overhelping at times. He's no Smart or Horford, who actively lead the team from the defensive side of the ball.

2) He's not that good at off-ball movement offensively, so I'm not sure what you're seeing there. If he was, our offense would be much better. In fact, I rarely see him moving off the ball, and he rarely scores off of backdoor cuts or anything of that nature.

3) Uh, it's easy to improve your ballhandling every year when you start at such a low bar. He could barely dribble and chew gum at the same time when he entered the league, and at best right now he is an average ballhandler, likely still below average for his position. That's one of the main factors that limits his ceiling.

4) See above. Brown is still not a good passer. Like the cutting aspect, not sure where you're pulling this stuff from.

5) He's definitely missed on some switches, but with how much we switch that's not really a criticism I can make of him.

Hell, Scal was just saying the same things I have been saying. You can't point to just one or two guys when the whole team sucks. You can't concentrate on one or two games when he was playing better a bunch of games before that. And that it's up to the whole team, coaching staff and other players to help maximizing Jaylen's ability. He barely touches the ball when playing with the starters. Most of the time he sits in a corner waiting for a kick out open three. That's on the coaching staff to use him better and his team mates to get him involved more.

I mean, I like Scal, but Scal is an overly positive pushover who is just trying to keep his job. He's not giving any objective analysis.

And I'm not pointing to just one or two guys. Pretty much everyone outside of Kyrie shares some blame, as he's the only one who has really been giving any consistent effort and play lately.

For whatever reason, I think you're overprotecting/giving too much credit to Brown here, pointing outward on all of his issues rather than giving him any of the blame whatsoever, even though he's seemingly not improved his game at all since last year, even in the areas that shouldn't be affected by him adjusting to a new role.

Re: Jazz (7-8) at Celtics (9-6) Game#16 11/17/18
« Reply #393 on: November 17, 2018, 10:52:36 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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Stevens saying the early missed free throws caused the team to lose their defensive focus and if you can't hit free throws you can't expect to hit open threes.

I can see the latter part, but the first part of that sentence has me like...


Re: Jazz (7-8) at Celtics (9-6) Game#16 11/17/18
« Reply #394 on: November 17, 2018, 10:53:14 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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what is BB1Q?

Basketball IQ,

Thanks.... I think you either understand the game or you do not. Brown makes boneheaded plays and misses too many layups. Is that low BB1Q? I dunno seems like lack of execution. Brown is smart enough, he just is not a good shooter. I do not think you need any special IQ for BB.
Brown shot 40% from three while shooting 5threes a game last year. Bad shooters don't shoot like that. He has had a terrible shooting start to the season. A hot month will even things out and make him the same shooter he was last year. His form is excellent. He is just struggling. But the only way to get out of a bad shooting stretch is to keep shooting. Any pro ball player will tell you that.

Re: Jazz (7-8) at Celtics (9-6) Game#16 11/17/18
« Reply #395 on: November 17, 2018, 10:54:07 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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Kyrie stressing there are multiple guys who aren't following the game plan

Hmm, between that comment and the comment from Horford, seems to be some strife on the team with the young guys.

Me thinkey a team meeting is needed to clarify roles...

Re: Jazz (7-8) at Celtics (9-6) Game#16 11/17/18
« Reply #396 on: November 17, 2018, 10:58:53 PM »

Offline blink

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For you guys that are killing Rozier and Brown, have you seen that Tatum has been tentative, inconsistent and forcing mid range jumpers this year. Have you noticed that Brown is actually playing better defense than Smart. Did you see Morris, Smart, Hayward, and Horford we're as bad or invisible as Brown and Rozier tonight and Smart and Morris had worse +/- than Brown tonight in less minutes.

Yeah, you guys love harping on the same players because they are struggling in the early season as they learn to take on completely different roles, but the fact is the only players producing regularly on the whole team is Morris and Kyrie. That's it. Everyone else has been inconsistent and performing below their career norms.

Yeah, outside of a few games, this just isn't true. He did as good as one can on Kawhi last night, but that's kind of the problem - that's the only time he shows up as a defender. When he has a big matchup individually, he's generally pretty good at staying with him and making things difficult for him, but similar to Rozier he is a mess when he's off the ball defensively, as he has no sense of how to play help defense or off the ball team defense, which are major factors in good basketball defenders and why players like Smart and Horford are so valuable defensively.

Mitchell made him look silly when he was on him tonight.

EDIT: Also, posters here (me especially) are highly sensitive to those with low BBIQ, which not coincidentally fits both Rozier and Brown perfectly, as neither of them have even average BBIQs, especially Rozier.
With Jpotter wholeheartedly on this one
Yeah, there's about 5 guys on the site that say the same thing over and over again. It doesn't mean it's true. I don't know how anyone can see how Brown played as a rookie and how much he has improved his overall game and think this kid has a low BBIQ. I can't see how anyone could have watched Brown in the playoffs last year and think he has a low BBIQ. That is just astonishing to me.
It’s pretty obviously a sentiment that stems from his consistently bad decision making on offence, his routinely poor reads of opposition defences and his overall bad feel for the game and tendency to disappear completely.

Brown has had issues with his handle, but he did improve it a lot last year, & he has shot terrible to start the year, but the long view (ie all of last season) is that he is a better shooter than he has shown this season, and is more the likely just in a shooting slump.

But you can't really blame Brown for the "tendency to disappear completely' part.  That is on our offense in general and the offense that Brad wants them to run.  Brown is parked in the corner most of the time due to our gameplan and our plays. 

I guess there are a few posters that want to point the finger at someone and they choose Brown.  It seems pretty dumb to me.  Jaylen is a good shooter who is in a slump.  Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. the whole team is basically in a slump.  But yeah lets blame everything on Brown and Rozier when the whole team is underperforming (with the exception of KI who has been really solid).

The over reactions to the early struggles are grating on me.  Some guys on here act as if the season is over because we aren't in 1st place in mid November.

Re: Jazz (7-8) at Celtics (9-6) Game#16 11/17/18
« Reply #397 on: November 17, 2018, 11:02:12 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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https://twitter.com/ByJayKing/status/1064004264744374273?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1064004264744374273&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fbleacherreport.com%2Fboston-celtics

Quote
Kyrie Irving said the start of the game was an indicator of how the night would go.

"We get a switch with (Jayson Tatum) out on Derrick Favors and we kind of expected him to attack and then that's our first possession of the game."

https://twitter.com/Tom_NBA/status/1064004302564397058?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1064004302564397058&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fbleacherreport.com%2Fboston-celtics

Quote
Kyrie Irving: "Coach just wants us to go play hard for him, and he deserves that. So I don’t blame him for saying we’re lacking toughness at that point."

https://twitter.com/ByJayKing/status/1064002096289193984?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1064002096289193984&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fbleacherreport.com%2Fboston-celtics

Quote
Kyrie Irving said young guys need to get used to the amount of pressure on them to perform as “part of a great team.”

“If you’re not playing to the standard then as a team we just don’t all click. I think that once we get there and we find that consistency we’ll be great.”

Yikes, Kyrie calling out the young guys a bit here, specifically seems to point at Tatum, Brown, Rozier, etc. Kind of don't blame him, as he really seems to be the only one consistently getting to the rim at this point, though I also think some of the vets (outside of Morris) have a lot of blame on them, too.

Re: Jazz (7-8) at Celtics (9-6) Game#16 11/17/18
« Reply #398 on: November 17, 2018, 11:07:48 PM »

Offline mctyson

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You live by the three you die by the three. There are going to be a ton of blowouts this year because the C's drain 20+ threes in a game. But there will be games like tonight where it doesn't matter how open those shots are and they just won't go down.

This is called a failure by the coaching staff for implementing a philosophy that is that volatile.

It's still early in the season, so hopefully they'll adjust, but as it looks right now it seems Brad and the coaching staff are content with us playing this type of ball with us just chucking up three after three, regardless of the results leading to games like this, which is inexcusable for a team with championship aspirations.
All five starters have shown to be very good(+38%) from three in their career. Analytics show guys who can shoot that good are better off shooting those wide open threes than forcing other shots. It's the new NBA. Golden State and Houston have thrived with similar systems. When everyone gets used to their roles and feel confident and comfortable in their roles, those threes are gonna drop and this team will take off.

Have patience. It not about how you play in October and November. It's how you play in April, May and June that counts.

Agree, but that is also very naive because they will be playing on someone else's court in the playoffs, and they will likely lose because of that.

Re: Jazz (7-8) at Celtics (9-6) Game#16 11/17/18
« Reply #399 on: November 17, 2018, 11:07:50 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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what is BB1Q?

Basketball IQ,

Thanks.... I think you either understand the game or you do not. Brown makes boneheaded plays and misses too many layups. Is that low BB1Q? I dunno seems like lack of execution. Brown is smart enough, he just is not a good shooter. I do not think you need any special IQ for BB.
Brown shot 40% from three while shooting 5threes a game last year. Bad shooters don't shoot like that. He has had a terrible shooting start to the season. A hot month will even things out and make him the same shooter he was last year. His form is excellent. He is just struggling. But the only way to get out of a bad shooting stretch is to keep shooting. Any pro ball player will tell you that.

I measure a shooter by their overall field goal percentage and not just the three point percentage. I just dont think Brown is a good shooter. He is not the guy who goes up and you are confident the ball is going in. He is the guy who goes up and you hold your breath.

Re: Jazz (7-8) at Celtics (9-6) Game#16 11/17/18
« Reply #400 on: November 17, 2018, 11:08:06 PM »

Offline RockinRyA

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Maybe Danny should trade Rozier already, his value is declining really fast.

Re: Jazz (7-8) at Celtics (9-6) Game#16 11/17/18
« Reply #401 on: November 17, 2018, 11:13:11 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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For you guys that are killing Rozier and Brown, have you seen that Tatum has been tentative, inconsistent and forcing mid range jumpers this year. Have you noticed that Brown is actually playing better defense than Smart. Did you see Morris, Smart, Hayward, and Horford we're as bad or invisible as Brown and Rozier tonight and Smart and Morris had worse +/- than Brown tonight in less minutes.

Yeah, you guys love harping on the same players because they are struggling in the early season as they learn to take on completely different roles, but the fact is the only players producing regularly on the whole team is Morris and Kyrie. That's it. Everyone else has been inconsistent and performing below their career norms.

Yeah, outside of a few games, this just isn't true. He did as good as one can on Kawhi last night, but that's kind of the problem - that's the only time he shows up as a defender. When he has a big matchup individually, he's generally pretty good at staying with him and making things difficult for him, but similar to Rozier he is a mess when he's off the ball defensively, as he has no sense of how to play help defense or off the ball team defense, which are major factors in good basketball defenders and why players like Smart and Horford are so valuable defensively.

Mitchell made him look silly when he was on him tonight.

EDIT: Also, posters here (me especially) are highly sensitive to those with low BBIQ, which not coincidentally fits both Rozier and Brown perfectly, as neither of them have even average BBIQs, especially Rozier.
Yeah, one, you're wrong about Jaylen's defense, he has been this team's best defender. After the first few minutes of each half, he wasn't even on Mitchell tonight. In the first 4 minutes of this game he shut down Mitchell and forced Utah to miss two layups because of his defensive pressure on the drive. Then he went to the bench and didn't come back until the second quarter.

Also, you are completely wrong about his basketball IQ. Players with low BBIQs don't play great defense, aren't the best cutters off the ball on the team, don't improve their handle every year he is in the league, doesn't improve his passing off the drive as much as he has, doesn't miss defensive switches at all. He is doing what he is coached to do....shoot the open three when you have it and be aggressive to the basket and pass to the open shooter on the outside when the drive isn't able to be finished.

I'm legitimately awe-struck that anyone can watch Brown and think his BBIQ is adequate.

1) He's a pretty good individual defender, though I wouldn't say great. But he's primarily an individual defender, not a team defender, which is largely due to his measurables and athleticism. He's completely lost off the ball. Watch him the next game; he regularly gets caught watching the ball and loses his man, along with overhelping at times. He's no Smart or Horford, who actively lead the team from the defensive side of the ball.

2) He's not that good at off-ball movement offensively, so I'm not sure what you're seeing there. If he was, our offense would be much better. In fact, I rarely see him moving off the ball, and he rarely scores off of backdoor cuts or anything of that nature.

3) Uh, it's easy to improve your ballhandling every year when you start at such a low bar. He could barely dribble and chew gum at the same time when he entered the league, and at best right now he is an average ballhandler, likely still below average for his position. That's one of the main factors that limits his ceiling.

4) See above. Brown is still not a good passer. Like the cutting aspect, not sure where you're pulling this stuff from.

5) He's definitely missed on some switches, but with how much we switch that's not really a criticism I can make of him.

Hell, Scal was just saying the same things I have been saying. You can't point to just one or two guys when the whole team sucks. You can't concentrate on one or two games when he was playing better a bunch of games before that. And that it's up to the whole team, coaching staff and other players to help maximizing Jaylen's ability. He barely touches the ball when playing with the starters. Most of the time he sits in a corner waiting for a kick out open three. That's on the coaching staff to use him better and his team mates to get him involved more.

I mean, I like Scal, but Scal is an overly positive pushover who is just trying to keep his job. He's not giving any objective analysis.

And I'm not pointing to just one or two guys. Pretty much everyone outside of Kyrie shares some blame, as he's the only one who has really been giving any consistent effort and play lately.

For whatever reason, I think you're overprotecting/giving too much credit to Brown here, pointing outward on all of his issues rather than giving him any of the blame whatsoever, even though he's seemingly not improved his game at all since last year, even in the areas that shouldn't be affected by him adjusting to a new role.
1. He came in at 15th for DPOY voting last year....ahead of Smart. He held the man he was guarding to like 6+% below his average shooting percentage, and was one of the best in the league on that. And he watches the ball to call switches when guarding off ball because he knows he has the physical ability to get back and guard the guy. Horford does the same thing.

2. This year he is being used as a fifth offensive option and his job is to sit in the corner waiting for a kick out. It's not his fault he isn't cutting to the basket as much, that's not his job in this offense. That job is Tatum's this year. But if you watched him closely last year, he was easily the best cutter to the basket off the ball and it wasn't close.

3.So you admit he has improved his handle considerably. Thank you for admitting that. Low BBIQ players won't considerably improve their handle that much at such a young age.

4. Never said Brown was a good passer. He was a horrendous passer as a rookie. But he is making the right decision and passing incredibly better than that rookie year. His passing this year is much smarter and on point when going to the basket and blocked off this year. Low BBIQ players don't improve on their passing that much.

5. He misses very few switches. The players on this team that miss the most switches are the players that try to fight through the pick too much and don't seemlessly switch then don't switch off ball to a better match up. Rozier, Tatum and Irving are the three biggest culprits but even then, none of them are bad. You got to have a good mind to consistently and efficiently play this switch it all defense and there really isn't a player in the top 10 of the rotation that are bad at it. And guys like Baynes, Horford, Smart and Brown are exceptional at it.

For instance, for all Williams raw defensive ability, Semi is the #11 man in this rotation. Semi got a lot of run last year. But Semi was a very good man defender and very good on switches. Yabu isn't. He doesn't play. My guess is Williams hasn't picked up the rotations and switches on defense and that is the main thing holding him back.

Re: Jazz (7-8) at Celtics (9-6) Game#16 11/17/18
« Reply #402 on: November 17, 2018, 11:14:31 PM »

Offline mctyson

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Hell, Scal was just saying the same things I have been saying. You can't point to just one or two guys when the whole team sucks. You can't concentrate on one or two games when he was playing better a bunch of games before that. And that it's up to the whole team, coaching staff and other players to help maximizing Jaylen's ability. He barely touches the ball when playing with the starters. Most of the time he sits in a corner waiting for a kick out open three. That's on the coaching staff to use him better and his team mates to get him involved more.

Again, I agree with most of the points, but I was at the game and Jaylen Brown was awful tonight.  Not just that, there was no fire as he was getting worked by Mitchell.  How about getting p---ed off when you play like crap?

Re: Jazz (7-8) at Celtics (9-6) Game#16 11/17/18
« Reply #403 on: November 17, 2018, 11:16:21 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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You live by the three you die by the three. There are going to be a ton of blowouts this year because the C's drain 20+ threes in a game. But there will be games like tonight where it doesn't matter how open those shots are and they just won't go down.

This is called a failure by the coaching staff for implementing a philosophy that is that volatile.

It's still early in the season, so hopefully they'll adjust, but as it looks right now it seems Brad and the coaching staff are content with us playing this type of ball with us just chucking up three after three, regardless of the results leading to games like this, which is inexcusable for a team with championship aspirations.
All five starters have shown to be very good(+38%) from three in their career. Analytics show guys who can shoot that good are better off shooting those wide open threes than forcing other shots. It's the new NBA. Golden State and Houston have thrived with similar systems. When everyone gets used to their roles and feel confident and comfortable in their roles, those threes are gonna drop and this team will take off.

Have patience. It not about how you play in October and November. It's how you play in April, May and June that counts.

Agree, but that is also very naive because they will be playing on someone else's court in the playoffs, and they will likely lose because of that.
You're assuming the rest of the year they play at this level. That's naive. There is no reason to believe that this team won't cruise through easy parts of the schedule and rack up tons of wins. They have had a very difficult schedule this far, one of the hardest in the league.

Re: Jazz (7-8) at Celtics (9-6) Game#16 11/17/18
« Reply #404 on: November 17, 2018, 11:21:42 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Hell, Scal was just saying the same things I have been saying. You can't point to just one or two guys when the whole team sucks. You can't concentrate on one or two games when he was playing better a bunch of games before that. And that it's up to the whole team, coaching staff and other players to help maximizing Jaylen's ability. He barely touches the ball when playing with the starters. Most of the time he sits in a corner waiting for a kick out open three. That's on the coaching staff to use him better and his team mates to get him involved more.

Again, I agree with most of the points, but I was at the game and Jaylen Brown was awful tonight.  Not just that, there was no fire as he was getting worked by Mitchell.  How about getting p---ed off when you play like crap?
Everyone played like crap tonight. From Kyrie on down. And Brown was pretty bad last night as well. But he was pretty good for the 6 games or so before that.