If the Celts are going to make a blockbuster...

[ederson]

There are some Celtics fans so obsessed with "big men" and the way the game was played was played in the 80s that they won't shut up about a Center until they see some 7'0"(6'10" in Drummond's case) plodding dinosaur in the middle for the Celtics. And they willingly want to blow up the good young team we have now for their mythical BigFoot. Thankfully Aingie isn't going to trade players like Tatum, Smart, or Hayward.

There are also some who, for whatever reason, don't realize you need a productive center in order to win a championship.

Did all those Miami and GSW teams have a productive center? I don't think they did unless you count those teams using their PFs at center.

Miami had Chris Bosh and a Lebron who basically reached his peak as the best player in the game during his Miami days.

I still have nightmares about game 6 in the 2012 ECF (especially consdering I was there.)

As for GSW, shooters like Curry and Thompson are a very breed.

CLE didn't too .... The cetlics won with KP.Nice guy , hard working but not productive.

I think we can say that a productive center is not absolutely necessary to win. It would be nice to have one but not having doesn't mean much 

[nickagneta]

There are some Celtics fans so obsessed with "big men" and the way the game was played was played in the 80s that they won't shut up about a Center until they see some 7'0"(6'10" in Drummond's case) plodding dinosaur in the middle for the Celtics. And they willingly want to blow up the good young team we have now for their mythical BigFoot. Thankfully Aingie isn't going to trade players like Tatum, Smart, or Hayward.

There are also some who, for whatever reason, don't realize you need a productive center in order to win a championship.

Did all those Miami and GSW teams have a productive center? I don't think they did unless you count those teams using their PFs at center.

Miami had Chris Bosh and a Lebron who basically reached his peak as the best player in the game during his Miami days.

I still have nightmares about game 6 in the 2012 ECF (especially consdering I was there.)

As for GSW, shooters like Curry and Thompson are a very breed.

Then you admit, teams can win titles without productive centers.

Also, just want to point out that combined our three centers are averaging:

51 MPG
17.9 PPG
17.2 RPG
2.2 SPG
3.1 BPG

Or in 48 mins 16.8 points, 16.1 rebounds, 2 steals and 3 blocks a game. Even if one singular player doesn't have great stats, as a center unit, they appear to be rather productive.

[Fierce1]

There are some Celtics fans so obsessed with "big men" and the way the game was played was played in the 80s that they won't shut up about a Center until they see some 7'0"(6'10" in Drummond's case) plodding dinosaur in the middle for the Celtics. And they willingly want to blow up the good young team we have now for their mythical BigFoot. Thankfully Aingie isn't going to trade players like Tatum, Smart, or Hayward.

There are also some who, for whatever reason, don't realize you need a productive center in order to win a championship.

Did all those Miami and GSW teams have a productive center? I don't think they did unless you count those teams using their PFs at center.

Right now the Celts don't even have a real PF that they can use as a Center.

And right now, Tatum, a wing player, is leading the Celts in rebounding.

Clearly the Celts have a big man problem.
I mean the wing player is leading the team in rebounds?

Whether the Celts get a big like Drummond or someone like Poeltl, it's very clear the Celts need to address the big man problem before the playoffs start.

It's just too big of a risk to rely solely on Marcus Smart to defend guys like Embiid and Giannis.

[Fierce1]

There are some Celtics fans so obsessed with "big men" and the way the game was played was played in the 80s that they won't shut up about a Center until they see some 7'0"(6'10" in Drummond's case) plodding dinosaur in the middle for the Celtics. And they willingly want to blow up the good young team we have now for their mythical BigFoot. Thankfully Aingie isn't going to trade players like Tatum, Smart, or Hayward.

There are also some who, for whatever reason, don't realize you need a productive center in order to win a championship.

Did all those Miami and GSW teams have a productive center? I don't think they did unless you count those teams using their PFs at center.

Miami had Chris Bosh and a Lebron who basically reached his peak as the best player in the game during his Miami days.

I still have nightmares about game 6 in the 2012 ECF (especially consdering I was there.)

As for GSW, shooters like Curry and Thompson are a very breed.

Then you admit, teams can win titles without productive centers.

Also, just want to point out that combined our three centers are averaging:

51 MPG
17.9 PPG
17.2 RPG
2.2 SPG
3.1 BPG

Or in 48 mins 16.8 points, 16.1 rebounds, 2 steals and 3 blocks a game. Even if one singular player doesn't have great stats, as a center unit, they appear to be rather productive.

I don't think production is the problem.
It's the defense that's lacking.

Theis is very good if the opposing teams don't have a big man like Embiid or Jarrett Allen.
It's not Theis' fault that he's only 6-8.

Kanter comes in and he always gets points and rebounds.
The problem with Kanter is he's so bad on defense.
Opposing guards always get to the rim because Kanter just doesn't know how defend when he's forced to switch.

I think the stats you should look at is how many points and rebounds the opposing Center got.

DeAndre and Jarrett burned the Celts for 22 points and 22 rebounds combined.
That's why the Celts lost.

If the consensus is not to trade Kemba, Tatum, Hayward, Brown, and Smart, at least make a move to get a bigger big man who can defend.

[Donoghus]

There are some Celtics fans so obsessed with "big men" and the way the game was played was played in the 80s that they won't shut up about a Center until they see some 7'0"(6'10" in Drummond's case) plodding dinosaur in the middle for the Celtics. And they willingly want to blow up the good young team we have now for their mythical BigFoot. Thankfully Aingie isn't going to trade players like Tatum, Smart, or Hayward.

There are also some who, for whatever reason, don't realize you need a productive center in order to win a championship.

Did all those Miami and GSW teams have a productive center? I don't think they did unless you count those teams using their PFs at center.

Right now the Celts don't even have a real PF that they can use as a Center.

And right now, Tatum, a wing player, is leading the Celts in rebounding.

Clearly the Celts have a big man problem.
I mean the wing player is leading the team in rebounds?

Whether the Celts get a big like Drummond or someone like Poeltl, it's very clear the Celts need to address the big man problem before the playoffs start.

It's just too big of a risk to rely solely on Marcus Smart to defend guys like Embiid and Giannis.

Is it really a problem?  They're 16-5 with the piecemealing so far and outside of a couple of opposing team matchups, it hasn't really been an issue at all. 

What realistic blockbuster trade is out there for a big man that wouldn't gut the depth of this Celtics team?  What trade is a bonafide slam dunk to put the team over the top?  I just don't see it.  Piece-mealing it has been fine so far.  I remember people wanting to move Jaylen for Serge Ibaka years  ago because people wanted a big man.  That would've been disasterous.

[greenrunsdeep41]

I’d love for us to make a WCS, Poetl, or Kelly O trade.

Other than that I don’t think we will see much movement. Even those trades each present their own issues - Kelly’s contract, GSW having no big depth, and Poetl seemingly being someone pop really likes.

[Surferdad]

There are some Celtics fans so obsessed with "big men" and the way the game was played was played in the 80s that they won't shut up about a Center until they see some 7'0"(6'10" in Drummond's case) plodding dinosaur in the middle for the Celtics. And they willingly want to blow up the good young team we have now for their mythical BigFoot. Thankfully Aingie isn't going to trade players like Tatum, Smart, or Hayward.

There are also some who, for whatever reason, don't realize you need a productive center in order to win a championship.

Did all those Miami and GSW teams have a productive center? I don't think they did unless you count those teams using their PFs at center.

Miami had Chris Bosh and a Lebron who basically reached his peak as the best player in the game during his Miami days.

I still have nightmares about game 6 in the 2012 ECF (especially consdering I was there.)

As for GSW, shooters like Curry and Thompson are a very breed.

Then you admit, teams can win titles without productive centers.

Also, just want to point out that combined our three centers are averaging:

51 MPG
17.9 PPG
17.2 RPG
2.2 SPG
3.1 BPG

Or in 48 mins 16.8 points, 16.1 rebounds, 2 steals and 3 blocks a game. Even if one singular player doesn't have great stats, as a center unit, they appear to be rather productive.

I'd be curious to see how you did those calculations.  Is that a straight sum of Kanter+Theis+RWIII?  If C's are really getting 18/17 with 3 bpg out of our center position then obviously we don't need a trade and should instead be talking about how well our 3-headed monster is working, not trading for a center.  The fact that you have 51mpg implies that some of those minutes are for PF slot.

Not trying to be over-critical, in fact the numbers are quite interesting.

[jambr380]

Right now the Celts don't even have a real PF that they can use as a Center.

I think this is a legitimate concern. It's not so much that we don't have a dominant Center to man the middle, but we don't even have a starting level forward that we can slide over to the Center position for even a handful of minutes. I am not sure what to do about this - KG or Bosh are not walking through that door and I am not really sure of the interest level of a Draymond (expiring) or Love (contract matching).

I will say that our 3-headed monster has been a nice surprise and hopefully they can keep that up. I don't really have a huge problem with our top 5 players manning 4 positions. Guys can't play 48 minutes anyway.

The bigger issue is our bench swing/big (Grant) and bench shooter (Edwards) have been an absolute utter disaster from an offensive standpoint so far. We are only about 1/4 of the way into the season, but they really need to be better than horrible on that end if we are truly thinking about contending...or we really do need to make a trade.

[PhoSita]

There are some Celtics fans so obsessed with "big men" and the way the game was played was played in the 80s that they won't shut up about a Center until they see some 7'0"(6'10" in Drummond's case) plodding dinosaur in the middle for the Celtics. And they willingly want to blow up the good young team we have now for their mythical BigFoot. Thankfully Aingie isn't going to trade players like Tatum, Smart, or Hayward.

There are also some who, for whatever reason, don't realize you need a productive center in order to win a championship.

Says who?  Based on what recent evidence?

Certainly it doesn't seem to be the case that you need a traditional center who does most of his scoring in the paint.

[gpap]

Right now the Celts don't even have a real PF that they can use as a Center.

I think this is a legitimate concern. It's not so much that we don't have a dominant Center to man the middle, but we don't even have a starting level forward that we can slide over to the Center position for even a handful of minutes. I am not sure what to do about this - KG or Bosh are not walking through that door and I am not really sure of the interest level of a Draymond (expiring) or Love (contract matching).

I will say that our 3-headed monster has been a nice surprise and hopefully they can keep that up. I don't really have a huge problem with our top 5 players manning 4 positions. Guys can't play 48 minutes anyway.

The bigger issue is our bench swing/big (Grant) and bench shooter (Edwards) have been an absolute utter disaster from an offensive standpoint so far. We are only about 1/4 of the way into the season, but they really need to be better than horrible on that end if we are truly thinking about contending...or we really do need to make a trade.

I'll add to this that I'm not saying in any way that Kanter, Timelord or Theis have been bad.

I think Kanter did a pretty admirable job vs Jokic the other night (I was at the game and was impressed.)

Theis is a power forward and really shouldn't be playing center.

Timelord shows moments of brilliance but is still learning the game (not a knock, just saying it's only his 2nd year in the league.)

But in an ideal world, Kanter/TimeLord/Theis are all back-ups.

I think worse case scenario, Kanter could definitely be a starting center.

He's a good rebounder, but sometimes his defense is a bit lackadaisical.

I also think what will be interesting is how the team does when Hayward comes back. I don't think there's been a stretch this year where both Brown and Hayward have been healthy and playing at the same time.

Now with Hayward coming back, I guess the question that begs to be asked is does Ainge just ride it out with a surplus of wings or make a deal to trade a wing to address the front court?

I do also think another underlying factor in all this is Hayward's health and the fact that he could be a free agent at the end of the season, as well.

PS...GSW extended Draymond.

[nickagneta]

There are some Celtics fans so obsessed with "big men" and the way the game was played was played in the 80s that they won't shut up about a Center until they see some 7'0"(6'10" in Drummond's case) plodding dinosaur in the middle for the Celtics. And they willingly want to blow up the good young team we have now for their mythical BigFoot. Thankfully Aingie isn't going to trade players like Tatum, Smart, or Hayward.

There are also some who, for whatever reason, don't realize you need a productive center in order to win a championship.

Did all those Miami and GSW teams have a productive center? I don't think they did unless you count those teams using their PFs at center.

Miami had Chris Bosh and a Lebron who basically reached his peak as the best player in the game during his Miami days.

I still have nightmares about game 6 in the 2012 ECF (especially consdering I was there.)

As for GSW, shooters like Curry and Thompson are a very breed.

Then you admit, teams can win titles without productive centers.

Also, just want to point out that combined our three centers are averaging:

51 MPG
17.9 PPG
17.2 RPG
2.2 SPG
3.1 BPG

Or in 48 mins 16.8 points, 16.1 rebounds, 2 steals and 3 blocks a game. Even if one singular player doesn't have great stats, as a center unit, they appear to be rather productive.

I'd be curious to see how you did those calculations.  Is that a straight sum of Kanter+Theis+RWIII?  If C's are really getting 18/17 with 3 bpg out of our center position then obviously we don't need a trade and should instead be talking about how well our 3-headed monster is working, not trading for a center.  The fact that you have 51mpg implies that some of those minutes are for PF slot.

Not trying to be over-critical, in fact the numbers are quite interesting.

Just added their numbers. Then fixed them so they reflected a 48 minute game. Since all three regularly play center every game when healthy, I figured it would be interesting to see what they do combined in a game.

Let's look at the last few games where all three played:

Vs Denver
46 minutes, 15 points, 8 rebounds, 1 blocks, 1 steals

Vs Miami
52 minutes, 13 points, 21 rebounds, 4 blocks, 1 steals

Vs New York
40 minutes, 16 points, 15 rebounds, 4 blocks, 0 steals

Vs Brooklyn
45 minutes, 18 points, 14 rebounds, 2 blocks, 2 steals

Vs Brooklyn
48 minutes, 18 points, 16 rebounds, 2 blocks, 5 steals

All three playing give you some decent production from the three headed center monster.

[gpap]

There are some Celtics fans so obsessed with "big men" and the way the game was played was played in the 80s that they won't shut up about a Center until they see some 7'0"(6'10" in Drummond's case) plodding dinosaur in the middle for the Celtics. And they willingly want to blow up the good young team we have now for their mythical BigFoot. Thankfully Aingie isn't going to trade players like Tatum, Smart, or Hayward.

There are also some who, for whatever reason, don't realize you need a productive center in order to win a championship.

Says who?  Based on what recent evidence?

Certainly it doesn't seem to be the case that you need a traditional center who does most of his scoring in the paint.

I'm not just talking about scoring.

I'm talking about defending, rebounding and blocking.

Someone who will contain guys like Giannis when they attack the rim.

Or someone who will be able to post up vs. Embiid.

[PhoSita]

I'm not just talking about scoring.

I'm talking about defending, rebounding and blocking.

Someone who will contain guys like Giannis when they attack the rim.

Or someone who will be able to post up vs. Embiid.

why would you want to try to post-up against Embiid?  post-ups are some of the most inefficient offensive possessions you can have, why would you try to go to that option against one of the biggest post defenders in the league?

as for defending Embiid, the Celts have managed to do that effectively in the past without having a traditional center defender.


As for rebounding, defending, and blocking, so far the Celts are doing pretty well at that without giving many minutes to a traditional center.  They're tops in the league in opponent points in the paint and they're a top 10 defensive team.

The main issue is that they are poor at defensive rebounding.  I think that could be an issue against a larger opponent in a playoff series.

However, any guy they'd be likely to get who would make a difference on the defensive glass would probably force them to compromise elsewhere, e.g. perimeter defense, versatility, shooting etc.


The Celts are already a mediocre shooting team, so they can't really afford to sacrifice shooting any further by putting a traditional non-shooting big on the floor for more minutes.



I will say this again and again ... what would really improve the Celts would be to get more reliable shooting from the bench spots currently occupied by guys like Edwards / Grant / Ojeleye.


Between Rob Williams and Kanter the Celts are already giving enough minutes to traditional 5s.  I don't think the Celts are likely to find a significant upgrade to either of those two via the trade market.

[td450]

There are some Celtics fans so obsessed with "big men" and the way the game was played was played in the 80s that they won't shut up about a Center until they see some 7'0"(6'10" in Drummond's case) plodding dinosaur in the middle for the Celtics. And they willingly want to blow up the good young team we have now for their mythical BigFoot. Thankfully Aingie isn't going to trade players like Tatum, Smart, or Hayward.

There are also some who, for whatever reason, don't realize you need a productive center in order to win a championship.

Did all those Miami and GSW teams have a productive center? I don't think they did unless you count those teams using their PFs at center.

Miami had Chris Bosh and a Lebron who basically reached his peak as the best player in the game during his Miami days.

I still have nightmares about game 6 in the 2012 ECF (especially consdering I was there.)

As for GSW, shooters like Curry and Thompson are a very breed.

Then you admit, teams can win titles without productive centers.

Also, just want to point out that combined our three centers are averaging:

51 MPG
17.9 PPG
17.2 RPG
2.2 SPG
3.1 BPG

Or in 48 mins 16.8 points, 16.1 rebounds, 2 steals and 3 blocks a game. Even if one singular player doesn't have great stats, as a center unit, they appear to be rather productive.

I don't think production is the problem.
It's the defense that's lacking.

Theis is very good if the opposing teams don't have a big man like Embiid or Jarrett Allen.
It's not Theis' fault that he's only 6-8.

Kanter comes in and he always gets points and rebounds.
The problem with Kanter is he's so bad on defense.
Opposing guards always get to the rim because Kanter just doesn't know how defend when he's forced to switch.

I think the stats you should look at is how many points and rebounds the opposing Center got.

DeAndre and Jarrett burned the Celts for 22 points and 22 rebounds combined.
That's why the Celts lost.

If the consensus is not to trade Kemba, Tatum, Hayward, Brown, and Smart, at least make a move to get a bigger big man who can defend.

When the Celtics lost to the Nets on 11/29 by 5 on the road, Tatum had a good game, but Walker and Smart were both terrible, and Jaylen Brown only got 8 shots. Theis played 7 minutes in that game.

While it is fair to claim that our centers were outplayed, its hard to see that as the primary reason for the loss.

[keevsnick]

There are some Celtics fans so obsessed with "big men" and the way the game was played was played in the 80s that they won't shut up about a Center until they see some 7'0"(6'10" in Drummond's case) plodding dinosaur in the middle for the Celtics. And they willingly want to blow up the good young team we have now for their mythical BigFoot. Thankfully Aingie isn't going to trade players like Tatum, Smart, or Hayward.

There are also some who, for whatever reason, don't realize you need a productive center in order to win a championship.

Did all those Miami and GSW teams have a productive center? I don't think they did unless you count those teams using their PFs at center.

Miami had Chris Bosh and a Lebron who basically reached his peak as the best player in the game during his Miami days.

I still have nightmares about game 6 in the 2012 ECF (especially consdering I was there.)

As for GSW, shooters like Curry and Thompson are a very breed.

Then you admit, teams can win titles without productive centers.

Also, just want to point out that combined our three centers are averaging:

51 MPG
17.9 PPG
17.2 RPG
2.2 SPG
3.1 BPG

Or in 48 mins 16.8 points, 16.1 rebounds, 2 steals and 3 blocks a game. Even if one singular player doesn't have great stats, as a center unit, they appear to be rather productive.

I'd be curious to see how you did those calculations.  Is that a straight sum of Kanter+Theis+RWIII?  If C's are really getting 18/17 with 3 bpg out of our center position then obviously we don't need a trade and should instead be talking about how well our 3-headed monster is working, not trading for a center.  The fact that you have 51mpg implies that some of those minutes are for PF slot.

Not trying to be over-critical, in fact the numbers are quite interesting.

Just added their numbers. Then fixed them so they reflected a 48 minute game. Since all three regularly play center every game when healthy, I figured it would be interesting to see what they do combined in a game.

Let's look at the last few games where all three played:

Vs Denver
46 minutes, 15 points, 8 rebounds, 1 blocks, 1 steals

Vs Miami
52 minutes, 13 points, 21 rebounds, 4 blocks, 1 steals

Vs New York
40 minutes, 16 points, 15 rebounds, 4 blocks, 0 steals

Vs Brooklyn
45 minutes, 18 points, 14 rebounds, 2 blocks, 2 steals

Vs Brooklyn
48 minutes, 18 points, 16 rebounds, 2 blocks, 5 steals

All three playing give you some decent production from the three headed center monster.

I think the more pertinent question isnt "Are they productive during the regular season" but rather "Are they good enough in the playoffs" and I don't think its crazy to if you think the answer is "No." The playoffs are a very different animal, teams spend a lot more time in preparation for an opponent and spend more time on exploiting a weakness. Having to play a team 4-7 times leaves you far more vulnerable to a specific weakness dooming your team, and its entirely possible that facing Embiid or Giannis without a defensive big would be a fatal flaw.

Now I don't KNOW for sure it will be the C's undoing, but it very well could be. Its also entirely possible given the C's salary structure that they have no choice other than to hope it works out.