Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[Vermont Green]

I find it an overly simplistic take to say only a championship matters.  That you can't judge how well Mazzulla is coaching now, that you can only judge after they do or don't win a championship.  The coach is going to have a lot less to do with any championship winning than the players.

That said, isn't it getting harder and harder to knock Mazzulla's coaching?  No, they have not won a championship, but what more do you want him to do?  If you are actually trying to pay attention to the games, it is pretty clear that the team is responding to the coaching, they are bought in.  That is the biggest thing by far.  Also, the team is now starting to show that they can adjust their game plan on the fly.

We are a small team, or at least we play small.  We play with 1 big and an extra guard.  A team with that structure is going to take more 3s than if the team started 2 bigs.  That team is also going to give up more ORebs.  My complaint all season has been too many 3s.  Now they are adjusting and taking it to the hoop more, getting fouled more.  My only remaining complaint is opponents ORebs, and I guess turnovers, but you are going to have more TOs when you drive to the hoop more.  Not sure how you can coach away turnovers.  The players need to clean that up.

Another thing to keep in mind is that we started the season with 2 new starters.  It takes some time for a unit to settle in and play at a championship level.  To be able to play to differing offensive schemes, without turnovers.  It often can take multiple seasons for a core team to really gel.  You can see the evolution of this unit.  They are still getting better, tighter, more integrated.

[Roy H.]

https://twitter.com/SouichiTerada/status/1762678463469683184

Joe Mazzulla: "This is one of our best games of the year." Says the Sixers guarded them to take away 3s, so they had to win in a different way tonight.

He's learning. Prayers do come true.

So the Sixers were the first team this season to figure out how to take away the 3’s. hmmm..Interesting…

For perspective, last year we lost Game 1 against Philly in the playoffs.  We shot 69.4% on 2PTs, attempting "only" 26 3PTs.  In his press conference, Joe complained about the lack of three-point attempts. 

To see him praise the team after attempting 22 3PTs is progress.  It's an acknowledgment that there is more than one way to win, and that the team can, and should, make adjustments when outside shots aren't falling.

I think that Joe has been much better this year -- particularly over the past two months -- at diversifying the offensive based upon the opponent and the defensive matchups.

I think he's had a bit more media training, as well, but ultimately winning (and having a very skilled offensive big given to you) solves a whole lot.

The media training is certainly a big part of it, which he openly admits himself. He still has some strange, defensive moments, but he’s much better than last year.

Whether he actually is different in reality is up for question, but it certainly feels like he comes off as less dogmatic and more flexible and dynamic this year.

I agree.  And, the team has played with more versatility this year.  We've seen Joe make way more in-game adjustments than last season. 

Now, as Kern notes, part of that is personnel.  KP and Jrue are just better players than we had, and they have more diverse offensive games than the guys they replaced.  And some is undoubtedly assistant coaching.  But, Joe gets credit for maximizing the tools he has at his disposal.  I think he's made progress there over the past couple of months in particular.

But, proof is in the playoffs, right?

If you choose to take a hard line, yes. It's championship or bust for many fans. I think that's a little nuts, considering that they have one player (Jrue) with a ring. The rest of the squad is still pretty young compared to Milwaukee, Phoenix, LAC, etc.

It's almost like the Celtics are getting punished for having too much success early in 25 yo Tatum's career.

It's not "championship or bust" regarding Joe.  It's whether he looks completely outmatched like he did last season.

Coaching in the playoffs is simply different.  There is a lot more scouting, and adjustments are important not only game to game, but minute to minute. If Joe makes good decisions and adjusts strategy when things aren't working, I doubt most fans will criticize him.

[green_bballers13]

https://twitter.com/SouichiTerada/status/1762678463469683184

Joe Mazzulla: "This is one of our best games of the year." Says the Sixers guarded them to take away 3s, so they had to win in a different way tonight.

He's learning. Prayers do come true.

So the Sixers were the first team this season to figure out how to take away the 3’s. hmmm..Interesting…

For perspective, last year we lost Game 1 against Philly in the playoffs.  We shot 69.4% on 2PTs, attempting "only" 26 3PTs.  In his press conference, Joe complained about the lack of three-point attempts. 

To see him praise the team after attempting 22 3PTs is progress.  It's an acknowledgment that there is more than one way to win, and that the team can, and should, make adjustments when outside shots aren't falling.

I think that Joe has been much better this year -- particularly over the past two months -- at diversifying the offensive based upon the opponent and the defensive matchups.

I think he's had a bit more media training, as well, but ultimately winning (and having a very skilled offensive big given to you) solves a whole lot.

The media training is certainly a big part of it, which he openly admits himself. He still has some strange, defensive moments, but he’s much better than last year.

Whether he actually is different in reality is up for question, but it certainly feels like he comes off as less dogmatic and more flexible and dynamic this year.

I agree.  And, the team has played with more versatility this year.  We've seen Joe make way more in-game adjustments than last season. 

Now, as Kern notes, part of that is personnel.  KP and Jrue are just better players than we had, and they have more diverse offensive games than the guys they replaced.  And some is undoubtedly assistant coaching.  But, Joe gets credit for maximizing the tools he has at his disposal.  I think he's made progress there over the past couple of months in particular.

But, proof is in the playoffs, right?

If you choose to take a hard line, yes. It's championship or bust for many fans. I think that's a little nuts, considering that they have one player (Jrue) with a ring. The rest of the squad is still pretty young compared to Milwaukee, Phoenix, LAC, etc.

It's almost like the Celtics are getting punished for having too much success early in 25 yo Tatum's career.

It's not "championship or bust" regarding Joe.  It's whether he looks completely outmatched like he did last season.

Coaching in the playoffs is simply different.  There is a lot more scouting, and adjustments are important not only game to game, but minute to minute. If Joe makes good decisions and adjusts strategy when things aren't working, I doubt most fans will criticize him.

I don't think most fans were ever criticizing him. I think it was a loud minority.

[Roy H.]

https://twitter.com/SouichiTerada/status/1762678463469683184

Joe Mazzulla: "This is one of our best games of the year." Says the Sixers guarded them to take away 3s, so they had to win in a different way tonight.

He's learning. Prayers do come true.

So the Sixers were the first team this season to figure out how to take away the 3’s. hmmm..Interesting…

For perspective, last year we lost Game 1 against Philly in the playoffs.  We shot 69.4% on 2PTs, attempting "only" 26 3PTs.  In his press conference, Joe complained about the lack of three-point attempts. 

To see him praise the team after attempting 22 3PTs is progress.  It's an acknowledgment that there is more than one way to win, and that the team can, and should, make adjustments when outside shots aren't falling.

I think that Joe has been much better this year -- particularly over the past two months -- at diversifying the offensive based upon the opponent and the defensive matchups.

I think he's had a bit more media training, as well, but ultimately winning (and having a very skilled offensive big given to you) solves a whole lot.

The media training is certainly a big part of it, which he openly admits himself. He still has some strange, defensive moments, but he’s much better than last year.

Whether he actually is different in reality is up for question, but it certainly feels like he comes off as less dogmatic and more flexible and dynamic this year.

I agree.  And, the team has played with more versatility this year.  We've seen Joe make way more in-game adjustments than last season. 

Now, as Kern notes, part of that is personnel.  KP and Jrue are just better players than we had, and they have more diverse offensive games than the guys they replaced.  And some is undoubtedly assistant coaching.  But, Joe gets credit for maximizing the tools he has at his disposal.  I think he's made progress there over the past couple of months in particular.

But, proof is in the playoffs, right?

If you choose to take a hard line, yes. It's championship or bust for many fans. I think that's a little nuts, considering that they have one player (Jrue) with a ring. The rest of the squad is still pretty young compared to Milwaukee, Phoenix, LAC, etc.

It's almost like the Celtics are getting punished for having too much success early in 25 yo Tatum's career.

It's not "championship or bust" regarding Joe.  It's whether he looks completely outmatched like he did last season.

Coaching in the playoffs is simply different.  There is a lot more scouting, and adjustments are important not only game to game, but minute to minute. If Joe makes good decisions and adjusts strategy when things aren't working, I doubt most fans will criticize him.

I don't think most fans were ever criticizing him. I think it was a loud minority.

If people weren't criticizing him in last year's playoffs, they weren't paying attention. Some of those critics last year included Wyc and multiple players.

He was bad in last year's playoffs. This is a new year, with a largely new team.  I think that everybody is hoping that he succeeds.

[green_bballers13]

It would take a special kind of terrible behaviour to get fired in the off-season after you win a title. [

Ime obviously got fired after taking this team to the Finals, for behavior that apparently wasn't particularly egregious.

Teams have continuously shown they'll fire coaches based upon perceived talent, rather than wins.  I only hope the team does so.  If we win a title in spite of Joe, I don't think we should continue the experiment.

According to Roy, those that weren't critical of Joe (in his rookie year) weren't paying attention. I went back to last year's comments to find the genesis of the Joe hate. I think I found it. Whatever happens (even winning a championship), some are going to think that Ime was unfairly cancelled.

[Vermont Green]

It would take a special kind of terrible behaviour to get fired in the off-season after you win a title. [

Ime obviously got fired after taking this team to the Finals, for behavior that apparently wasn't particularly egregious.

Teams have continuously shown they'll fire coaches based upon perceived talent, rather than wins.  I only hope the team does so.  If we win a title in spite of Joe, I don't think we should continue the experiment.

According to Roy, those that weren't critical of Joe (in his rookie year) weren't paying attention. I went back to last year's comments to find the genesis of the Joe hate. I think I found it. Whatever happens (even winning a championship), some are going to think that Ime was unfairly cancelled.

I agree with you that impact or the hangover from Ime being fired was real.  But I think that the main issue was that the players felt Ime was "unfairly cancelled".  If you recall, the news of Ime going to HOU came our right about the time of the Heat series.  I believe that had an impact on the players.

Roy in particular but maybe others feel this way too, likes to throw out things like "he was completely outmatch in the playoffs", or "he was bad in last year's playoffs".  Was he?  And did Wyc really feel that way?  If Wyc did feel that way, why didn't he bring in a new coach?  Wyc was willing to fire Ime, wouldn't he have been willing to fire Joe?

I don't know if a different coach would have made any difference.  It is kind of a hypothetical that has no provable right or wrong answer.  There is really no basis for debate of a hypothetical.  But I know there were a bunch of MIA scrubs that hit 50%+ from 3 all series.  And in spite of that, we had a game 7 in BOS in which our best player got hurt in the 1st quarter.  There were a lot of variables in that equation.  There is no rational way to conclude that if we had a different coach, we would have beat MIA.

[green_bballers13]

It would take a special kind of terrible behaviour to get fired in the off-season after you win a title. [

Ime obviously got fired after taking this team to the Finals, for behavior that apparently wasn't particularly egregious.

Teams have continuously shown they'll fire coaches based upon perceived talent, rather than wins.  I only hope the team does so.  If we win a title in spite of Joe, I don't think we should continue the experiment.

According to Roy, those that weren't critical of Joe (in his rookie year) weren't paying attention. I went back to last year's comments to find the genesis of the Joe hate. I think I found it. Whatever happens (even winning a championship), some are going to think that Ime was unfairly cancelled.

I agree with you that impact or the hangover from Ime being fired was real.  But I think that the main issue was that the players felt Ime was "unfairly cancelled".  If you recall, the news of Ime going to HOU came our right about the time of the Heat series.  I believe that had an impact on the players.

Roy in particular but maybe others feel this way too, likes to throw out things like "he was completely outmatch in the playoffs", or "he was bad in last year's playoffs".  Was he?  And did Wyc really feel that way?  If Wyc did feel that way, why didn't he bring in a new coach?  Wyc was willing to fire Ime, wouldn't he have been willing to fire Joe?

I don't know if a different coach would have made any difference.  It is kind of a hypothetical that has no provable right or wrong answer.  There is really no basis for debate of a hypothetical.  But I know there were a bunch of MIA scrubs that hit 50%+ from 3 all series.  And in spite of that, we had a game 7 in BOS in which our best player got hurt in the 1st quarter.  There were a lot of variables in that equation.  There is no rational way to conclude that if we had a different coach, we would have beat MIA.

As we have seen by many people, if you yell something repeatedly, many people will think its true. The loud minority is against Joe.

I think most people think he's ok and are happy with the regular season so far. I also think that Tatum/Brown/Porzingis/DWhite/Holiday have a much bigger impact on a championship than Joe Mazz.

[ozgod]

It would take a special kind of terrible behaviour to get fired in the off-season after you win a title. [

Ime obviously got fired after taking this team to the Finals, for behavior that apparently wasn't particularly egregious.

Teams have continuously shown they'll fire coaches based upon perceived talent, rather than wins.  I only hope the team does so.  If we win a title in spite of Joe, I don't think we should continue the experiment.

According to Roy, those that weren't critical of Joe (in his rookie year) weren't paying attention. I went back to last year's comments to find the genesis of the Joe hate. I think I found it. Whatever happens (even winning a championship), some are going to think that Ime was unfairly cancelled.

I agree with you that impact or the hangover from Ime being fired was real.  But I think that the main issue was that the players felt Ime was "unfairly cancelled".  If you recall, the news of Ime going to HOU came our right about the time of the Heat series.  I believe that had an impact on the players.

Roy in particular but maybe others feel this way too, likes to throw out things like "he was completely outmatch in the playoffs", or "he was bad in last year's playoffs".  Was he?  And did Wyc really feel that way?  If Wyc did feel that way, why didn't he bring in a new coach?  Wyc was willing to fire Ime, wouldn't he have been willing to fire Joe?

I don't know if a different coach would have made any difference.  It is kind of a hypothetical that has no provable right or wrong answer.  There is really no basis for debate of a hypothetical.  But I know there were a bunch of MIA scrubs that hit 50%+ from 3 all series.  And in spite of that, we had a game 7 in BOS in which our best player got hurt in the 1st quarter.  There were a lot of variables in that equation.  There is no rational way to conclude that if we had a different coach, we would have beat MIA.

As we have seen by many people, if you yell something repeatedly, many people will think its true. The loud minority is against Joe.

I think most people think he's ok and are happy with the regular season so far. I also think that Tatum/Brown/Porzingis/DWhite/Holiday have a much bigger impact on a championship than Joe Mazz.

I think it's easy to find the source of the Joe hate:

1) he's not a particularly charismatic person and his press conferences last season reflected that;
2) he advocated an offense predicated on shooting a lot of 3s, which everyone hated;
3) he didn't call timeouts or do the things that people expected of a traditional coach - he had odd ideas about letting players play through runs, etc.
4) expectations were high for the team after we made the finals and it was expected that the team would go one better this season and instead took a step back
5) he has a funny looking face that made some people want to punch him

So when the team was successful it was because of the players, if it wasn't it was the coach. Which, if you think about it, is one of the coach's most important roles - to take hits for his team so Joe was just doing his job 

[green_bballers13]

My favorite takes:

1) Joe is a bad coach (and the regular season doesn't matter- he will stink in the playoffs)
2) Jaylen doesn't contribute to winning
3) The Celtics shoot too many 3's
4) The Celtics don't have "winning" players

Winning while the haters go quiet is so sweet.

[Phantom255x]

EXTEND JOE! 

[Vermont Green]

The discussion should be whether or not Mazzulla deserves Coach of the Year this year.  He won't get it, voters will factor in how good the Celtics personnel is, and downgrade the contribution of the coach.  But where should Joe rank, top 5?  Top 3?

[green_bballers13]

We're a championship contender with a bottom five coach.  I don't understand this team's approach.  They went dumpster diving at head coach, they didn't hire experienced assistant coaches when Joe was promoted and Stoudamire left, they cheaped out on the end of the bench and let the TPEs expire.

At what point is winning a championship the total focus?

VG, I thought he was a bottom five coach. I guess people can improve at their job from year 1 to year 2.

[Donoghus]

We're a championship contender with a bottom five coach.  I don't understand this team's approach.  They went dumpster diving at head coach, they didn't hire experienced assistant coaches when Joe was promoted and Stoudamire left, they cheaped out on the end of the bench and let the TPEs expire.

At what point is winning a championship the total focus?

VG, I thought he was a bottom five coach. I guess people can improve at their job from year 1 to year 2.

You'd be smart to pump the brakes there, chief.

[Vermont Green]

We're a championship contender with a bottom five coach.  I don't understand this team's approach.  They went dumpster diving at head coach, they didn't hire experienced assistant coaches when Joe was promoted and Stoudamire left, they cheaped out on the end of the bench and let the TPEs expire.

At what point is winning a championship the total focus?

VG, I thought he was a bottom five coach. I guess people can improve at their job from year 1 to year 2.

So somewhere between bottom 5 and top 5 I guess   

Mazzulla is kind of the Luke Kornet of coaching.  He doesn't get enough credit.

[Vermont Green]

Tomorrow's headline:

Mazzulla totally out-coaches Kerr.