Who is our best player?

[RJ87]

Before the season, many people said in order for this Celtics team to contend, one or both of Tatum/Brown would have to make an additional leap. Well, Brown has done it.

Yes, and Tatum has not. After tonight, seeing Tatum dish to JB with the game on the line because Tatum was afraid of missing another game-needed score against the Pistons, it’s clear that JB is the man. Maybe he can become the next Kawhi Leonard. Tonight, JB displaced Tatum as my favorite active player.

Like when Tatum hit the game winner?

There’s a huge difference between taking the shot when you’re down one, where if you miss your team will probably lose the game, and taking a potential game-winner where if you miss your team is probably headed to OT.

Tatum clearly did not want to miss when down one for the second game in a row against the Pistons. For whatever reason, rather than getting setup and taking the big shot himself, he instead passed it to JB, who killed it without hesitation and showed he should have been the man taking the final shot the game before.

JB is now the alpha.

This is a comically bad take on a multitude of levels, including but not limited to the fact that Jaylen did, in fact, take the final shot in the last game with a chance to tie from 3 and he missed it. For the record, that doesn't make him any less of a player. But I am wondering if you're watching the same games I've been watching.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Before the season, many people said in order for this Celtics team to contend, one or both of Tatum/Brown would have to make an additional leap. Well, Brown has done it.

Arguably Tatum has too with that 12 assist game.

[Roy H.]

Boston needs Tatum.  Boston doesn't need Brown.

I’m pretty sure we need both.

[Jvalin]

Tatum is better in the half court. Brown is better in the open court. To put it another way, Tatum's style of play is better suited for the playoffs. Brown's style of play is better suited for the regular season. Playoff games are won in the half court. Always gimme the half court player over the open court player. Imo, Tatum > Brown.

Fwiw, Tatum recorded 12 assists and 0 t/o last night! Brown was super efficient, but he could never deliver 12 assists in 1 game, much less with 0 t/o. What Tatum does is way more difficult than what Brown does. Plenty of players can catch fire and score at will. Very few wing players can do what Tatum did last night.

Just observationally, JB has seemed pretty dominant in the half court so far.  What is it about his game that makes you think that he isn’t an excellent half court player?

Tatum is a better ball handler + passer. He's also way more crafty. Not many players can consistently hit a step back 3. This is an important skill in slow-paced games cause step back shots are unguardable. Off the top of my head, the only players I'd take over Tatum to hit a step back shot in the clutch are Lillard, Kyrie, Steph, Luka and KD. Possibly Jokic as well. Not even Harden who's a step back specialist, cause imo he's a chucker in the clutch. Obviously, Jokic and KD are close to 7'. No need for them to create separation via a step back. They may just shoot over their opponents.

Long story short, Tatum is hands down a better shot creator than Brown. He's better at creating shots for himself. He's better at creating shots for his teammates. I mean, he can even run the PnR as a 6'8'' ball handler! In fact, he scored 25.5% of his points out of the PnR last season. The respective number for this season is 26.3%. Bonus points: he's an elite rebounder at the wing positions.

Brown is way more athletic/explosive. He's a better slasher.
- Better at finishing through contact.
- Better at going to the free throw line (albeit, a worse free throw shooter).

Imo, he's also a better defender.

Again, what Tatum does is way more difficult, especially given his size. For the record, I fully expect both of them to make the All-Star teams this season.

[Roy H.]

Tatum is better in the half court. Brown is better in the open court. To put it another way, Tatum's style of play is better suited for the playoffs. Brown's style of play is better suited for the regular season. Playoff games are won in the half court. Always gimme the half court player over the open court player. Imo, Tatum > Brown.

Fwiw, Tatum recorded 12 assists and 0 t/o last night! Brown was super efficient, but he could never deliver 12 assists in 1 game, much less with 0 t/o. What Tatum does is way more difficult than what Brown does. Plenty of players can catch fire and score at will. Very few wing players can do what Tatum did last night.

Just observationally, JB has seemed pretty dominant in the half court so far.  What is it about his game that makes you think that he isn’t an excellent half court player?

Tatum is a better ball handler + passer. He's also way more crafty. Not many players can consistently hit a step back 3. This is an important skill in slow-paced games cause step back shots are unguardable. Off the top of my head, the only players I'd take over Tatum to hit a step back shot in the clutch are Lillard, Kyrie, Steph, Luka and KD. Possibly Jokic as well. Not even Harden who's a step back specialist, cause imo he's a chucker in the clutch. Obviously, Jokic and KD are close to 7'. No need for them to create separation via a step back. They may just shoot over their opponents.

Long story short, Tatum is hands down a better shot creator than Brown. He's better at creating shots for himself. He's better at creating shots for his teammates. I mean, he can even run the PnR as a 6'8'' ball handler! In fact, he scored 25.5% of his points out of the PnR last season. The respective number for this season is 26.3%. Bonus points: he's an elite rebounder at the wing positions.

Brown is way more athletic/explosive. He's a better slasher.
- Better at finishing through contact.
- Better at going to the free throw line (albeit, a worse free throw shooter).

Imo, he's also a better defender.

Again, what Tatum does is way more difficult, especially given his size. For the record, I fully expect both of them to make the All-Star teams this season.

I guess my question regarding your initial post was, are you suggesting that Jaylen hasn’t been extremely good in the half-court this year?

It’s an extremely small sample size, but his improved ballhandling and ability to get to the hoop in traffic seems like it is well-suited to the half court.  I don’t really see the half court being a weakness for him.

[Moranis]

Boston needs Tatum.  Boston doesn't need Brown.

I’m pretty sure we need both.

Except Boston is actually better with Brown on the bench and has been for the last 3 years.  That was the context of that quote you pulled out, without actually commenting about it.  Brown's value to winning is basically non-existent.  He has great stats, but he doesn't impact the scoreboard and never has, which is what matters at the end of the day.

[td450]

Tatum is BY FAR the most valuable player on the Celtics.  His on/off differential per 100 possessions is +17.2, while Brown's is -1.2 (Teague and Timelord have a better differential than Tatum, but they are no where near as important). This continues the trend from last year, that Boston just falls apart without Tatum on the floor and the team is just better when Brown is on the bench.  Obviously some of that is who is backing them up, but it also goes to some level at the actual importance of their roles to the team.  Tatum doesn't even to play well for Boston to just be better with him on the floor.  Boston needs Tatum.  Boston doesn't need Brown.  And it has been this way for awhile.  In fact, Tatum has basically led the the team every single season of his career, while Brown has been positive just 1 of his 5 seasons (his 2nd year when Tatum was a rookie).  And Brown has been negative in the playoffs as well the last 3 years, while Tatum has been positive every season.  And Tatum is the most valuable player because he is the best player.  The offense runs through him and falls apart when he isn't on the floor.  Boston is Tatum.

It is a weird dynamic. The team is fully built around Tatum in the traditional sense. Last night we saw Jaylen score 22 at the half with almost no misses, and then get only a handful of touches over the second half.

We reverted back to old ways, where Brown stood in the corner watching Tatum and Marcus Smart completely dominate the offense. And yet, Jaylen's results just seem to ooze out anyway. He's shooting 60/42.5% and scoring 28 ppg.

The only changes are that he's not playing any power forward and they seem to give him more handoff touches on cuts around high picks, maybe 5-6 more times a game than last year. Given that Walker and Hayward are gone, it's hard to see how those touches could be avoided.

It is true that the offensive architecture has not changed, and that without Walker, Tatum dominates it, with Smart handling the ball more. Jaylen's role hasn't changed that much. He's just finding a way to squeeze insane results out of his touches.

I'm not sure what Stevens is thinking, or ever was, about how to bring Brown along, and it is to his credit that he hasn't made a public fuss or sulked, but it seems unsustainable now that Jaylen has somehow figured out a way to score well north of 25 ppg without taking on any sustained primary ball handling, even when Tatum is on the bench. It bears watching because it is hard to understand, and we can't expect Brown to accept this indefinitely.

[nickagneta]

Tatum is better in the half court. Brown is better in the open court. To put it another way, Tatum's style of play is better suited for the playoffs. Brown's style of play is better suited for the regular season. Playoff games are won in the half court. Always gimme the half court player over the open court player. Imo, Tatum > Brown.

Fwiw, Tatum recorded 12 assists and 0 t/o last night! Brown was super efficient, but he could never deliver 12 assists in 1 game, much less with 0 t/o. What Tatum does is way more difficult than what Brown does. Plenty of players can catch fire and score at will. Very few wing players can do what Tatum did last night.

Just observationally, JB has seemed pretty dominant in the half court so far.  What is it about his game that makes you think that he isn’t an excellent half court player?

Tatum is a better ball handler + passer. He's also way more crafty. Not many players can consistently hit a step back 3. This is an important skill in slow-paced games cause step back shots are unguardable. Off the top of my head, the only players I'd take over Tatum to hit a step back shot in the clutch are Lillard, Kyrie, Steph, Luka and KD. Possibly Jokic as well. Not even Harden who's a step back specialist, cause imo he's a chucker in the clutch. Obviously, Jokic and KD are close to 7'. No need for them to create separation via a step back. They may just shoot over their opponents.

Long story short, Tatum is hands down a better shot creator than Brown. He's better at creating shots for himself. He's better at creating shots for his teammates. I mean, he can even run the PnR as a 6'8'' ball handler! In fact, he scored 25.5% of his points out of the PnR last season. The respective number for this season is 26.3%. Bonus points: he's an elite rebounder at the wing positions.

Brown is way more athletic/explosive. He's a better slasher.
- Better at finishing through contact.
- Better at going to the free throw line (albeit, a worse free throw shooter).

Imo, he's also a better defender.

Again, what Tatum does is way more difficult, especially given his size. For the record, I fully expect both of them to make the All-Star teams this season.

I guess my question regarding your initial post was, are you suggesting that Jaylen hasn’t been extremely good in the half-court this year?

It’s an extremely small sample size, but his improved ballhandling and ability to get to the hoop in traffic seems like it is well-suited to the half court.  I don’t really see the half court being a weakness for him.

Jaylen is especially dangerous in the half court game since he has found spots on the court he can hit shots from at an elite level and can get to those shots with ease.

I have also seen some saying Tatum is a better player because he is doing what he is with double teams and traps happening to him. People have made it sound like it's happening all the time.

I just haven't seen this on a large scale. Sure, I have seen it a bit against Indy and a bit against Detroit, but those times have been the exception not the rule so far this year. I will admit, yes, it happened a bunch in last year's playoffs but Tatum hasn't been facing doubles and traps on the regular to start this season. Using this as some proof that Tatum has been facing tougher defense just doesn't square with what I have seen happen thus far this year.

[Jvalin]

Tatum is better in the half court. Brown is better in the open court. To put it another way, Tatum's style of play is better suited for the playoffs. Brown's style of play is better suited for the regular season. Playoff games are won in the half court. Always gimme the half court player over the open court player. Imo, Tatum > Brown.

Fwiw, Tatum recorded 12 assists and 0 t/o last night! Brown was super efficient, but he could never deliver 12 assists in 1 game, much less with 0 t/o. What Tatum does is way more difficult than what Brown does. Plenty of players can catch fire and score at will. Very few wing players can do what Tatum did last night.

Just observationally, JB has seemed pretty dominant in the half court so far.  What is it about his game that makes you think that he isn’t an excellent half court player?

Tatum is a better ball handler + passer. He's also way more crafty. Not many players can consistently hit a step back 3. This is an important skill in slow-paced games cause step back shots are unguardable. Off the top of my head, the only players I'd take over Tatum to hit a step back shot in the clutch are Lillard, Kyrie, Steph, Luka and KD. Possibly Jokic as well. Not even Harden who's a step back specialist, cause imo he's a chucker in the clutch. Obviously, Jokic and KD are close to 7'. No need for them to create separation via a step back. They may just shoot over their opponents.

Long story short, Tatum is hands down a better shot creator than Brown. He's better at creating shots for himself. He's better at creating shots for his teammates. I mean, he can even run the PnR as a 6'8'' ball handler! In fact, he scored 25.5% of his points out of the PnR last season. The respective number for this season is 26.3%. Bonus points: he's an elite rebounder at the wing positions.

Brown is way more athletic/explosive. He's a better slasher.
- Better at finishing through contact.
- Better at going to the free throw line (albeit, a worse free throw shooter).

Imo, he's also a better defender.

Again, what Tatum does is way more difficult, especially given his size. For the record, I fully expect both of them to make the All-Star teams this season.

I guess my question regarding your initial post was, are you suggesting that Jaylen hasn’t been extremely good in the half-court this year?

It’s an extremely small sample size, but his improved ballhandling and ability to get to the hoop in traffic seems like it is well-suited to the half court.  I don’t really see the half court being a weakness for him.

I'm suggesting that regular season games are played at a faster tempo than playoff games. For instance, yesterday's game against the Pistons was all about offense. Brown thrives in fast-paced games. Playoff games are a whole nother story.

Fwiw, Brown had 3 assists and 6 turnovers yesterday. Obviously, it's just 1 game, but it's indicative of Tatum's superior shot creation skills.

[LilRip]

Tatum, easily

I’m surprised at how this poll has gone. I guess people love scoring? Anyway, JT changes the way other teams play defense. No one on this squad faces a defense like Tatum does. He gets the best defender and is the only player to get doubled routinely and he still manages to score 20 and pick up assists. If we counted hockey assists, it wouldn’t surprise me if Tatum leads the team.

JB has been amazing. He’s been a terror on offense because his shot creation has taken a leap this year. But Tatum’s the best player on the floor (no question) and other teams recognize that too.

[ETNCeltics]

It's pretty simple, Tatum initiates the offense, Brown can't. Brown has to rely on the offense running through Tatum or Kemba (or last year, Hayward), he simply doesn't have the vision or handle to do what Tatum does.

I love Brown and what he's doing right now, but every opponent we play builds its defensive game plan around Tatum, Brown was an afterthought. But as hot as he's been, we can expect that to change going forward.

Plus, this is a 7 game sample. As great as he's been, 7 games does not signify this is who he is from now on. Tatum had a 7 game stretch last year where he averaged 34/9, shot 50% from 3, and was NBA player of the month based on that stretch. Is that who he is? The NBA's best player? No, he's a great player who had a phenomenal run. Is this 7 game stretch who Jaylen Brown is? A 60% shooter and top 5 scorer in the league? Very likely not. No one wants to admit it, but history shows us that whether it's MJ, Lebron, Kobe, even the best scorers shooting % will eventually come back to earth.

[Phantom255x]

Oh I misinterpreted this poll and thought it asked who the best player is so far this season. Not best player overall or in general. So I voted Jaylen as he's consistently been our best player so far to start the season, but overall I still feel it's Tatum.

Brown's been fantastic, but Tatum is quietly averaging 25/8/4 and has 2-game winners this season. I think Brown's scoring has been a pleasant surprise though as he's averaging 28 PPG so far. It's just I honestly don't expect it to last. He'll still be a 24+ PPG guy but I think Tatum is also becoming a bit more of a facilitator so he won't average 28+ PPG often.

Basically I view Jaylen as a true 2-way star who has the ceiling of a Kawhi Leonard in his prime (so 23-25 PPG, 5-6 RPG and 3-4 APG with great defense) while Tatum is a 27-28 PPG, 7-9 RPG guy with the ceiling of a Kevin Durant-like player.

Remember, Jaylen is 24 and Tatum is still just 22. In theory they are still a few years away from truly hitting their primes.

[PhoSita]

The answer is Jayson, but Jaylen is making it interesting.

[Somebody]

Boston needs Tatum.  Boston doesn't need Brown.

I’m pretty sure we need both.

Except Boston is actually better with Brown on the bench and has been for the last 3 years.  That was the context of that quote you pulled out, without actually commenting about it.  Brown's value to winning is basically non-existent.  He has great stats, but he doesn't impact the scoreboard and never has, which is what matters at the end of the day.

Sure wish you could've bought into this type of argument in our Moses/Kareem debates where +/- metrics far better than raw on/off were used .

As for Brown, adjusted +/- metrics (eg. RPM, RAPTOR, multiyear RAPM) that paint a far better picture of a player's situational value than raw on/off suggest that he's a small positive on both ends of the court - in line with a fringe All-Star when you consider that these stats generally underrate his ability to guard a variety of wings or even guards in the playoffs (for example, RAPTOR thought that he was a neutral defender in the RS last season, but they rated him as a top wing defender in the playoffs). The big thing about Jaylen this season is whether his qualitative (eg. shooting, passing, dribbling, etc) and quantitative (in terms of the box score) improvements can actually drive team success like a borderline All-NBA guy - we still don't have adjusted +/- data yet, those take 20+ games before they are released, and raw on/off in a 7 game sample size might not even pin the directionality of a player's situational value correctly (you need a 20ish game sample size to even start getting a reliable-ish signal).

[A Future of Stevens]

Oh I misinterpreted this poll and thought it asked who the best player is so far this season. Not best player overall or in general. So I voted Jaylen as he's consistently been our best player so far to start the season, but overall I still feel it's Tatum.

Brown's been fantastic, but Tatum is quietly averaging 25/8/4 and has 2-game winners this season. I think Brown's scoring has been a pleasant surprise though as he's averaging 28 PPG so far. It's just I honestly don't expect it to last. He'll still be a 24+ PPG guy but I think Tatum is also becoming a bit more of a facilitator so he won't average 28+ PPG often.

Basically I view Jaylen as a true 2-way star who has the ceiling of a Kawhi Leonard in his prime (so 23-25 PPG, 5-6 RPG and 3-4 APG with great defense) while Tatum is a 27-28 PPG, 7-9 RPG guy with the ceiling of a Kevin Durant-like player.

Remember, Jaylen is 24 and Tatum is still just 22. In theory they are still a few years away from truly hitting their primes.

Imagine? If they both get to 80% of those players and their primes line up....Watch out league.