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Who is our best player?

Jaylen
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Jayson
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Re: Who is our best player?
« Reply #105 on: January 07, 2021, 01:27:07 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Yet another game where the team is better with Brown on the bench (+4 in the 17 minutes with him, but also +4 in the 7 minutes without him so a better rate).  Boston is -5 with Tatum on the bench in 6 minutes and +13 in his 18 minutes.  This just continues the multi-year trend of the team needing Tatum and not needing Brown.  It just doesn't matter how good Brown plays, the team does just fine without him and it really doesn't matter how poorly Tatum plays as they just play better with him on the floor overall.  Tatum is the guy.  It isn't close.

This is silly.  It’s just an out of context misuse of +/-.  If Brown had played like garbage in that first half, we wouldn’t be leaving right now.
It is a 3 year trend.  The team is better when Brown is on the bench.  That is a fact.

I am intrigued by this. Is your position, then, that Brown is fools’ gold- in that you genuinely think the team is better when he is not playing? Or are you just indicating via +/- that Tatum must be superior due to the +/- differential? Not trying to be contrary - just never honestly considered that we might be a better team with Brown on the bench.
Over the last 3 full seasons, in games Brown has missed Boston is 26-9 (74.3%).  Over the same timeframe, in games Brown has played Boston is 126-75 (62.7%).  If you take out 3 years ago when Boston was 8-4 without Brown and 47-23 with him, the C's have been 18-5 (78.3%) without Brown vs. 79-52 (60.3%) with Brown.

Brown's on/off differential per 100 possessions during that time period was +8.4 (3 years ago when Boston was slightly worse with him out), but -3.2 and -0.8 the last two seasons.  In the playoffs those 3 years, Brown is negative all 3 years at -0.1, -16.7, and -4.7. 

Contrast that with Tatum +8.5, +4.8, and then an elite +11.1 last year.  During the playoffs those 3 seasons, +12.9, +3.7, +4.9.

Before tonight so far this year, Brown is -3.1 and Tatum is +22.8.  After tonight, the gap will probably widen. 

The simple reality is, Boston has just been a better team when Brown hasn't been in the game the last 2 seasons and thus far this year.  That isn't to say I necessarily think the team will be better if Brown just wasn't on it, but I also don't think the team would fall off a cliff, like it would if Tatum missed significant time.  Tatum is the guy that makes the team go, Brown does not.  But this is one of the reasons, I would be perfectly fine with trading Brown for someone like Harden.  I think Harden would more than make-up for Brown, and I don't think it is all that close.  Brown just doesn't impact winning all that much because he has functioned much more so like a role player than a franchise player and role players just aren't that important.  And unlike most suped up role players, Brown isn't elite at anything.  He is a jack of all trades but master of none type player, and most suped up role players and the ones that hold the most value are the guys that have an elite skill.   
Hahahahaha
Nothing meaningful to add.  People said similar things when I made these arguments when Irving was on the team i.e. that the team wasn't necessarily better without Irving just not appreciably worse (and that is just with removing him without replacing him).  Irving's last year in Boston, I was pushing that narrative pretty hard, and low and behold, Boston was actually better without Irving by replacing him with a lesser player. 

The reality is, historically the on/off differential is the greatest indicator of importance and value to a team.  Time and time again it is the one stat that doesn't really lie, when you are dealing with starters playing big minutes.  Contrary to Roy's assertion it just doesn't lie over the long term (you obviously need a decent enough sample size, but we have that with over 2+ seasons).  For as good as Brown is and his numbers are, he just doesn't meaningfully impact Boston on the scoreboard and hasn't for the last couple of seasons.  And the fact that they both start, have played similar minutes, etc. and have that sort of discrepancy is incredibly telling.  And for the record the leaders in that stat entering the game tonight were Tatum, Teague, Pritchard, R. Williams, and Semi with the latter 4 all playing between 116 and 185 minutes.  While the 5 biggest minute players in the negative are Brown, G. Williams, Thompson, Smart, and Theis.  Obviously you can't put much stock in this year as the sample size is small, but the last 2 years don't lie.  That is plenty of time for these things to even out if they are going to and they just didn't.  Tatum incredibly important, Brown not so much.
There’s no point trying to have a meaningful conversation when you’re on one of your contrarian sprees
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Re: Who is our best player?
« Reply #106 on: January 07, 2021, 04:04:16 AM »

Offline Somebody

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Yet another game where the team is better with Brown on the bench (+4 in the 17 minutes with him, but also +4 in the 7 minutes without him so a better rate).  Boston is -5 with Tatum on the bench in 6 minutes and +13 in his 18 minutes.  This just continues the multi-year trend of the team needing Tatum and not needing Brown.  It just doesn't matter how good Brown plays, the team does just fine without him and it really doesn't matter how poorly Tatum plays as they just play better with him on the floor overall.  Tatum is the guy.  It isn't close.

This is silly.  It’s just an out of context misuse of +/-.  If Brown had played like garbage in that first half, we wouldn’t be leaving right now.
It is a 3 year trend.  The team is better when Brown is on the bench.  That is a fact.

I am intrigued by this. Is your position, then, that Brown is fools’ gold- in that you genuinely think the team is better when he is not playing? Or are you just indicating via +/- that Tatum must be superior due to the +/- differential? Not trying to be contrary - just never honestly considered that we might be a better team with Brown on the bench.
Over the last 3 full seasons, in games Brown has missed Boston is 26-9 (74.3%).  Over the same timeframe, in games Brown has played Boston is 126-75 (62.7%).  If you take out 3 years ago when Boston was 8-4 without Brown and 47-23 with him, the C's have been 18-5 (78.3%) without Brown vs. 79-52 (60.3%) with Brown.

Brown's on/off differential per 100 possessions during that time period was +8.4 (3 years ago when Boston was slightly worse with him out), but -3.2 and -0.8 the last two seasons.  In the playoffs those 3 years, Brown is negative all 3 years at -0.1, -16.7, and -4.7. 

Contrast that with Tatum +8.5, +4.8, and then an elite +11.1 last year.  During the playoffs those 3 seasons, +12.9, +3.7, +4.9.

Before tonight so far this year, Brown is -3.1 and Tatum is +22.8.  After tonight, the gap will probably widen. 

The simple reality is, Boston has just been a better team when Brown hasn't been in the game the last 2 seasons and thus far this year.  That isn't to say I necessarily think the team will be better if Brown just wasn't on it, but I also don't think the team would fall off a cliff, like it would if Tatum missed significant time.  Tatum is the guy that makes the team go, Brown does not.  But this is one of the reasons, I would be perfectly fine with trading Brown for someone like Harden.  I think Harden would more than make-up for Brown, and I don't think it is all that close.  Brown just doesn't impact winning all that much because he has functioned much more so like a role player than a franchise player and role players just aren't that important.  And unlike most suped up role players, Brown isn't elite at anything.  He is a jack of all trades but master of none type player, and most suped up role players and the ones that hold the most value are the guys that have an elite skill.   
Hahahahaha
Nothing meaningful to add.  People said similar things when I made these arguments when Irving was on the team i.e. that the team wasn't necessarily better without Irving just not appreciably worse (and that is just with removing him without replacing him).  Irving's last year in Boston, I was pushing that narrative pretty hard, and low and behold, Boston was actually better without Irving by replacing him with a lesser player. 

The reality is, historically the on/off differential is the greatest indicator of importance and value to a team.  Time and time again it is the one stat that doesn't really lie, when you are dealing with starters playing big minutes.  Contrary to Roy's assertion it just doesn't lie over the long term (you obviously need a decent enough sample size, but we have that with over 2+ seasons).  For as good as Brown is and his numbers are, he just doesn't meaningfully impact Boston on the scoreboard and hasn't for the last couple of seasons.  And the fact that they both start, have played similar minutes, etc. and have that sort of discrepancy is incredibly telling.  And for the record the leaders in that stat entering the game tonight were Tatum, Teague, Pritchard, R. Williams, and Semi with the latter 4 all playing between 116 and 185 minutes.  While the 5 biggest minute players in the negative are Brown, G. Williams, Thompson, Smart, and Theis.  Obviously you can't put much stock in this year as the sample size is small, but the last 2 years don't lie.  That is plenty of time for these things to even out if they are going to and they just didn't.  Tatum incredibly important, Brown not so much.
There’s no point trying to have a meaningful conversation when you’re on one of your contrarian sprees
I mean using raw on/off while ignoring adjusted +/- metrics that suggest Jaylen was at worst a neutral impact player on the Celtics for the past few seasons and at best a fringe All-Star wing is an amazing sight to behold. Would love to see him maintain this dogmatic opinion of +/- regarding Moses and Kareem :laugh:
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: Who is our best player?
« Reply #107 on: January 07, 2021, 04:08:26 AM »

Offline Somebody

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Yet another game where the team is better with Brown on the bench (+4 in the 17 minutes with him, but also +4 in the 7 minutes without him so a better rate).  Boston is -5 with Tatum on the bench in 6 minutes and +13 in his 18 minutes.  This just continues the multi-year trend of the team needing Tatum and not needing Brown.  It just doesn't matter how good Brown plays, the team does just fine without him and it really doesn't matter how poorly Tatum plays as they just play better with him on the floor overall.  Tatum is the guy.  It isn't close.

This is silly.  It’s just an out of context misuse of +/-.  If Brown had played like garbage in that first half, we wouldn’t be leaving right now.
It is a 3 year trend.  The team is better when Brown is on the bench.  That is a fact.

Since he and Tatum start together, you would have to look at the players they’re surrounded by when the other is on the bench.  Jaylen is often asked to lead pretty terrible squads out there with inferior spacing.

It amazes me that somebody could watch the game tonight and come to the conclusion that we don’t need Brown, that we’d be roughly equally as good without him.  Lies, dang lies and statistics, right?
Statistics that try to adjust for these factors have ballparked Brown's value pretty well in the past few seasons when you add in some context (eg. his ability to guard elite wings and guards in the playoffs is understated in the defensive side of these metrics), I'm pretty sure that no serious NBA statistician expected someone to swear by raw on/off :laugh:
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 04:35:30 AM by Somebody »
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Re: Who is our best player?
« Reply #108 on: January 07, 2021, 04:34:23 AM »

Offline Somebody

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Yet another game where the team is better with Brown on the bench (+4 in the 17 minutes with him, but also +4 in the 7 minutes without him so a better rate).  Boston is -5 with Tatum on the bench in 6 minutes and +13 in his 18 minutes.  This just continues the multi-year trend of the team needing Tatum and not needing Brown.  It just doesn't matter how good Brown plays, the team does just fine without him and it really doesn't matter how poorly Tatum plays as they just play better with him on the floor overall.  Tatum is the guy.  It isn't close.

This is silly.  It’s just an out of context misuse of +/-.  If Brown had played like garbage in that first half, we wouldn’t be leaving right now.
It is a 3 year trend.  The team is better when Brown is on the bench.  That is a fact.

I am intrigued by this. Is your position, then, that Brown is fools’ gold- in that you genuinely think the team is better when he is not playing? Or are you just indicating via +/- that Tatum must be superior due to the +/- differential? Not trying to be contrary - just never honestly considered that we might be a better team with Brown on the bench.
Over the last 3 full seasons, in games Brown has missed Boston is 26-9 (74.3%).  Over the same timeframe, in games Brown has played Boston is 126-75 (62.7%).  If you take out 3 years ago when Boston was 8-4 without Brown and 47-23 with him, the C's have been 18-5 (78.3%) without Brown vs. 79-52 (60.3%) with Brown.

Brown's on/off differential per 100 possessions during that time period was +8.4 (3 years ago when Boston was slightly worse with him out), but -3.2 and -0.8 the last two seasons.  In the playoffs those 3 years, Brown is negative all 3 years at -0.1, -16.7, and -4.7. 

Contrast that with Tatum +8.5, +4.8, and then an elite +11.1 last year.  During the playoffs those 3 seasons, +12.9, +3.7, +4.9.

Before tonight so far this year, Brown is -3.1 and Tatum is +22.8.  After tonight, the gap will probably widen. 

The simple reality is, Boston has just been a better team when Brown hasn't been in the game the last 2 seasons and thus far this year.  That isn't to say I necessarily think the team will be better if Brown just wasn't on it, but I also don't think the team would fall off a cliff, like it would if Tatum missed significant time.  Tatum is the guy that makes the team go, Brown does not.  But this is one of the reasons, I would be perfectly fine with trading Brown for someone like Harden.  I think Harden would more than make-up for Brown, and I don't think it is all that close.  Brown just doesn't impact winning all that much because he has functioned much more so like a role player than a franchise player and role players just aren't that important.  And unlike most suped up role players, Brown isn't elite at anything.  He is a jack of all trades but master of none type player, and most suped up role players and the ones that hold the most value are the guys that have an elite skill.   
Thank you.

I like to think of myself as an objective and data driven individual so this has given me something to chew on. You make a very strong argument that contrasts pretty significantly with what I see when I watch the games. Makes me wonder if I’m watching checkers while others are watching chess.

May I ask where you get your statistics? At the risk of creating a major time sink for myself, I would be very interested in looking at some of these numbers in different context(s).
What he's given you to chew on is how Boston uses Brown: what lineups does he play in? What role is he given in most of these lineups? How do lineups with Jaylen stack up against the ones that don't have him playing? Raw on/off is significantly influenced by these factors, and metrics that attempt to adjust for these rate Brown quite differently.

Multiyear RAPM from 2017-2020, a "pure" adjusted +/- metric thinks of Jaylen as a slight positive/neutral offensively (which makes sense considering he only really blossomed on that end last season) and a strong wing defender.

538's RAPTOR rates Jaylen as a positive offensively and a neutral/slightly below average defender in the regular season, but it underrates his ability to defend elite wings and guards in the playoffs: his DRAPTOR jumps to the elite among perimeter players in the playoffs while maintaining his positive value on offence. Brown's RAPTOR is buoyed by the box component of RAPTOR, but this isn't your average box score - RAPTOR's box component uses tracking data to stabilise its relatively fuzzy one year +/- values (pure APM usually needs larger sample sizes to remove most of its noise).

ESPN's RPM, another adjusted +/- metric that uses box data to stabilise its one year +/- values has rated Brown as a two way wing from 2017-2020 even though it also underrates Jaylen's defence like RAPTOR.

Add in what you see on the court (Jaylen's quick hitting offensive game meshes well with on-ball talent as a finisher while his newly developed ability to create for others gives teams the flexibility to run some offence through him, his strong man defence against a variety of attackers gets increasingly valuable in the playoffs when teams start relying on their stars more heavily on offence, etc) and the most likely conclusion about Brown is that he's a really valuable player if his improved ability to create and make plays defensively (his stock rates have jumped this year) holds up. The big question is whether would he be able to drive the team like Tatum, and we really don't know yet because he hasn't played in that sort of role offensively + we don't have enough data yet this season to see how efficacious he is when he assumes primacy in non-Tatum lineups to make confident guesses. What we do know is that he's looked very good in handling the increased PnR/ballhandling possessions that are coming his way next year, and it bodes well for Jaylen assuming primacy if Tatum misses some time and he has to step up.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 04:42:14 AM by Somebody »
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: Who is our best player?
« Reply #109 on: January 07, 2021, 07:59:12 AM »

Offline Moranis

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And yet Boston is 26-9 the last 3 years in games Brown doesn't play at all. 
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Re: Who is our best player?
« Reply #110 on: January 07, 2021, 08:00:35 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Yet another game where the team is better with Brown on the bench (+4 in the 17 minutes with him, but also +4 in the 7 minutes without him so a better rate).  Boston is -5 with Tatum on the bench in 6 minutes and +13 in his 18 minutes.  This just continues the multi-year trend of the team needing Tatum and not needing Brown.  It just doesn't matter how good Brown plays, the team does just fine without him and it really doesn't matter how poorly Tatum plays as they just play better with him on the floor overall.  Tatum is the guy.  It isn't close.

This is silly.  It’s just an out of context misuse of +/-.  If Brown had played like garbage in that first half, we wouldn’t be leaving right now.
It is a 3 year trend.  The team is better when Brown is on the bench.  That is a fact.

I am intrigued by this. Is your position, then, that Brown is fools’ gold- in that you genuinely think the team is better when he is not playing? Or are you just indicating via +/- that Tatum must be superior due to the +/- differential? Not trying to be contrary - just never honestly considered that we might be a better team with Brown on the bench.
Over the last 3 full seasons, in games Brown has missed Boston is 26-9 (74.3%).  Over the same timeframe, in games Brown has played Boston is 126-75 (62.7%).  If you take out 3 years ago when Boston was 8-4 without Brown and 47-23 with him, the C's have been 18-5 (78.3%) without Brown vs. 79-52 (60.3%) with Brown.

Brown's on/off differential per 100 possessions during that time period was +8.4 (3 years ago when Boston was slightly worse with him out), but -3.2 and -0.8 the last two seasons.  In the playoffs those 3 years, Brown is negative all 3 years at -0.1, -16.7, and -4.7. 

Contrast that with Tatum +8.5, +4.8, and then an elite +11.1 last year.  During the playoffs those 3 seasons, +12.9, +3.7, +4.9.

Before tonight so far this year, Brown is -3.1 and Tatum is +22.8.  After tonight, the gap will probably widen. 

The simple reality is, Boston has just been a better team when Brown hasn't been in the game the last 2 seasons and thus far this year.  That isn't to say I necessarily think the team will be better if Brown just wasn't on it, but I also don't think the team would fall off a cliff, like it would if Tatum missed significant time.  Tatum is the guy that makes the team go, Brown does not.  But this is one of the reasons, I would be perfectly fine with trading Brown for someone like Harden.  I think Harden would more than make-up for Brown, and I don't think it is all that close.  Brown just doesn't impact winning all that much because he has functioned much more so like a role player than a franchise player and role players just aren't that important.  And unlike most suped up role players, Brown isn't elite at anything.  He is a jack of all trades but master of none type player, and most suped up role players and the ones that hold the most value are the guys that have an elite skill.   
Hahahahaha
Nothing meaningful to add.  People said similar things when I made these arguments when Irving was on the team i.e. that the team wasn't necessarily better without Irving just not appreciably worse (and that is just with removing him without replacing him).  Irving's last year in Boston, I was pushing that narrative pretty hard, and low and behold, Boston was actually better without Irving by replacing him with a lesser player. 

The reality is, historically the on/off differential is the greatest indicator of importance and value to a team.  Time and time again it is the one stat that doesn't really lie, when you are dealing with starters playing big minutes.  Contrary to Roy's assertion it just doesn't lie over the long term (you obviously need a decent enough sample size, but we have that with over 2+ seasons).  For as good as Brown is and his numbers are, he just doesn't meaningfully impact Boston on the scoreboard and hasn't for the last couple of seasons.  And the fact that they both start, have played similar minutes, etc. and have that sort of discrepancy is incredibly telling.  And for the record the leaders in that stat entering the game tonight were Tatum, Teague, Pritchard, R. Williams, and Semi with the latter 4 all playing between 116 and 185 minutes.  While the 5 biggest minute players in the negative are Brown, G. Williams, Thompson, Smart, and Theis.  Obviously you can't put much stock in this year as the sample size is small, but the last 2 years don't lie.  That is plenty of time for these things to even out if they are going to and they just didn't.  Tatum incredibly important, Brown not so much.
There’s no point trying to have a meaningful conversation when you’re on one of your contrarian sprees
what are you talking about. 
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 09:41:08 AM by Moranis »
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Re: Who is our best player?
« Reply #111 on: January 07, 2021, 01:28:46 PM »

Offline dannyboy35

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  I’m fearing when kemba comes back Brad will have Jaylen sitting in a corner again.

Re: Who is our best player?
« Reply #112 on: January 07, 2021, 01:35:24 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Quote
The reality is, historically the on/off differential is the greatest indicator of importance and value to a team.  Time and time again it is the one stat that doesn't really lie

Do you know which starter was our leader in net rating (I.e., point differential per 100 possessions) was?

Daniel Theis, and it wasn’t close.

Strangely, I’m not sure he was our most important or valuable player last year.  But, the numbers don’t lie, I suppose.

Quote
   And the fact that they both start, have played similar minutes, etc. and have that sort of discrepancy is incredibly telling.  And for the record the leaders in that stat entering the game tonight were Tatum, Teague, Pritchard, R. Williams, and Semi with the latter 4 all playing between 116 and 185 minutes.  While the 5 biggest minute players in the negative are Brown, G. Williams, Thompson, Smart, and Theis.  Obviously you can't put much stock in this year as the sample size is small, but the last 2 years don't lie.  That is plenty of time for these things to even out if they are going to and they just didn't.  Tatum incredibly important, Brown not so much.

How are minutes distributed / staggered when Brown and Tatum aren’t playing together?  Who are their teammates they most regularly play with?

You cite to two years ago, when Tatum was playing as a starter and JB was trying to stabilize the bench.  Is there any wonder why Jaylen’s +/- is worse than JT’s under those circumstances?
Theis on/off differential per 100 possessions last year was +0.5.  The players with at least 1000 minutes last year, the on/off differentials were

Tatum 11.1
Hayward 4.1
Smart 1.3
G. Williams 1.0
Theis 0.5
Walker -0.7
Brown -0.8
Wanamaker -1.6
Ojeleye -9.5

Here is Boston's record in the full games those players missed.

Tatum 2-4
Hayward 14-6
Smart 9-3
G. Williams 1-2
Theis 6-1
Walker 11-5
Brown 10-5
Wanamaker 0-1
Ojeleye 2-1


What is incredibly apparent from those lists is Boston needs Tatum.  They've always needed Tatum, but they haven't really needed anyone else.  The team does just fine when it misses anyone not named Tatum.  I mean here we are sitting at 6-3 this year and Walker hasn't even suited up yet.  He is the 3rd best player on the team, and yet the team just keeps right on trucking along as if he is there.  The last 2 wins, no Teague either.  Doesn't matter.  You take Tatum out though, it matters.  He is Boston.
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Re: Who is our best player?
« Reply #113 on: January 07, 2021, 03:16:25 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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If we rerun the poll today, I bet Tatum wins by a landslide.

Re: Who is our best player?
« Reply #114 on: January 07, 2021, 03:36:28 PM »

Offline td450

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Quote
The reality is, historically the on/off differential is the greatest indicator of importance and value to a team.  Time and time again it is the one stat that doesn't really lie

Do you know which starter was our leader in net rating (I.e., point differential per 100 possessions) was?

Daniel Theis, and it wasn’t close.

Strangely, I’m not sure he was our most important or valuable player last year.  But, the numbers don’t lie, I suppose.

Quote
   And the fact that they both start, have played similar minutes, etc. and have that sort of discrepancy is incredibly telling.  And for the record the leaders in that stat entering the game tonight were Tatum, Teague, Pritchard, R. Williams, and Semi with the latter 4 all playing between 116 and 185 minutes.  While the 5 biggest minute players in the negative are Brown, G. Williams, Thompson, Smart, and Theis.  Obviously you can't put much stock in this year as the sample size is small, but the last 2 years don't lie.  That is plenty of time for these things to even out if they are going to and they just didn't.  Tatum incredibly important, Brown not so much.

How are minutes distributed / staggered when Brown and Tatum aren’t playing together?  Who are their teammates they most regularly play with?

You cite to two years ago, when Tatum was playing as a starter and JB was trying to stabilize the bench.  Is there any wonder why Jaylen’s +/- is worse than JT’s under those circumstances?
Theis on/off differential per 100 possessions last year was +0.5.  The players with at least 1000 minutes last year, the on/off differentials were

Tatum 11.1
Hayward 4.1
Smart 1.3
G. Williams 1.0
Theis 0.5
Walker -0.7
Brown -0.8
Wanamaker -1.6
Ojeleye -9.5

Here is Boston's record in the full games those players missed.

Tatum 2-4
Hayward 14-6
Smart 9-3
G. Williams 1-2
Theis 6-1
Walker 11-5
Brown 10-5
Wanamaker 0-1
Ojeleye 2-1


What is incredibly apparent from those lists is Boston needs Tatum.  They've always needed Tatum, but they haven't really needed anyone else.  The team does just fine when it misses anyone not named Tatum.  I mean here we are sitting at 6-3 this year and Walker hasn't even suited up yet.  He is the 3rd best player on the team, and yet the team just keeps right on trucking along as if he is there.  The last 2 wins, no Teague either.  Doesn't matter.  You take Tatum out though, it matters.  He is Boston.

I think this is partially true but I see the conclusion differently.

The team has brought the two players along very differently. Tatum always has the ball nearly twice as much, and the offense has increasingly run through him. Until this year, Brown's only avenue was to be opportunistic. Even now, the ball does not stick with him, and he doesn't usually start plays even with Tatum on the bench.

That does create a dependency. When Brown comes out, no one else is looking around wondering who starts the offense. Especially without Walker, Tatum is doing most of that work. Even when Walker is playing, he's more of a scorer than a playmaker.

My guess is if we had one or two more ball handlers that were any good, the value would even out. But the C's don't really have playmakers. Who is more valuable is situational. If, let's say Pritchard continued to improve and became a quality playmaker, or we traded for one, the dependency on that part of what Tatum does would go down, and Brown's ability to score in volume without needing to dominate the ball would be more valuable.

Brown has been asked to be a swiss army knife. He's never complained, and has instead figured out how to make it work, without worrying about perceptions about his status as a star. I expect him to be just as good as Tatum over the next few years, and I think they both make All NBA teams.


Re: Who is our best player?
« Reply #115 on: January 08, 2021, 11:40:48 PM »

Offline Somebody

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Quote
The reality is, historically the on/off differential is the greatest indicator of importance and value to a team.  Time and time again it is the one stat that doesn't really lie

Do you know which starter was our leader in net rating (I.e., point differential per 100 possessions) was?

Daniel Theis, and it wasn’t close.

Strangely, I’m not sure he was our most important or valuable player last year.  But, the numbers don’t lie, I suppose.

Quote
   And the fact that they both start, have played similar minutes, etc. and have that sort of discrepancy is incredibly telling.  And for the record the leaders in that stat entering the game tonight were Tatum, Teague, Pritchard, R. Williams, and Semi with the latter 4 all playing between 116 and 185 minutes.  While the 5 biggest minute players in the negative are Brown, G. Williams, Thompson, Smart, and Theis.  Obviously you can't put much stock in this year as the sample size is small, but the last 2 years don't lie.  That is plenty of time for these things to even out if they are going to and they just didn't.  Tatum incredibly important, Brown not so much.

How are minutes distributed / staggered when Brown and Tatum aren’t playing together?  Who are their teammates they most regularly play with?

You cite to two years ago, when Tatum was playing as a starter and JB was trying to stabilize the bench.  Is there any wonder why Jaylen’s +/- is worse than JT’s under those circumstances?
Theis on/off differential per 100 possessions last year was +0.5.  The players with at least 1000 minutes last year, the on/off differentials were

Tatum 11.1
Hayward 4.1
Smart 1.3
G. Williams 1.0
Theis 0.5
Walker -0.7
Brown -0.8
Wanamaker -1.6
Ojeleye -9.5

Here is Boston's record in the full games those players missed.

Tatum 2-4
Hayward 14-6
Smart 9-3
G. Williams 1-2
Theis 6-1
Walker 11-5
Brown 10-5
Wanamaker 0-1
Ojeleye 2-1


What is incredibly apparent from those lists is Boston needs Tatum.  They've always needed Tatum, but they haven't really needed anyone else.  The team does just fine when it misses anyone not named Tatum.  I mean here we are sitting at 6-3 this year and Walker hasn't even suited up yet.  He is the 3rd best player on the team, and yet the team just keeps right on trucking along as if he is there.  The last 2 wins, no Teague either.  Doesn't matter.  You take Tatum out though, it matters.  He is Boston.

I think this is partially true but I see the conclusion differently.

The team has brought the two players along very differently. Tatum always has the ball nearly twice as much, and the offense has increasingly run through him. Until this year, Brown's only avenue was to be opportunistic. Even now, the ball does not stick with him, and he doesn't usually start plays even with Tatum on the bench.

That does create a dependency. When Brown comes out, no one else is looking around wondering who starts the offense. Especially without Walker, Tatum is doing most of that work. Even when Walker is playing, he's more of a scorer than a playmaker.

My guess is if we had one or two more ball handlers that were any good, the value would even out. But the C's don't really have playmakers. Who is more valuable is situational. If, let's say Pritchard continued to improve and became a quality playmaker, or we traded for one, the dependency on that part of what Tatum does would go down, and Brown's ability to score in volume without needing to dominate the ball would be more valuable.

Brown has been asked to be a swiss army knife. He's never complained, and has instead figured out how to make it work, without worrying about perceptions about his status as a star. I expect him to be just as good as Tatum over the next few years, and I think they both make All NBA teams.
TP for actually realising what +/- metrics tell you - they're just a measure of situational value.
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: Who is our best player?
« Reply #116 on: January 08, 2021, 11:42:03 PM »

Offline Somebody

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Brown was a +21 while Tatum was a -6 tonight - I guess Brown was miles better than Tatum against the Wizards :laugh:
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: Who is our best player?
« Reply #117 on: January 08, 2021, 11:46:20 PM »

Offline dannyboy35

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  I’m pretty pumped . Another game where the Jays not only score but do other things as well. Jaylen tonight on the boards. These guys are bonkers this year so far.

Re: Who is our best player?
« Reply #118 on: January 09, 2021, 12:09:42 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Quote
The reality is, historically the on/off differential is the greatest indicator of importance and value to a team.  Time and time again it is the one stat that doesn't really lie

Do you know which starter was our leader in net rating (I.e., point differential per 100 possessions) was?

Daniel Theis, and it wasn’t close.

Strangely, I’m not sure he was our most important or valuable player last year.  But, the numbers don’t lie, I suppose.

Quote
   And the fact that they both start, have played similar minutes, etc. and have that sort of discrepancy is incredibly telling.  And for the record the leaders in that stat entering the game tonight were Tatum, Teague, Pritchard, R. Williams, and Semi with the latter 4 all playing between 116 and 185 minutes.  While the 5 biggest minute players in the negative are Brown, G. Williams, Thompson, Smart, and Theis.  Obviously you can't put much stock in this year as the sample size is small, but the last 2 years don't lie.  That is plenty of time for these things to even out if they are going to and they just didn't.  Tatum incredibly important, Brown not so much.

How are minutes distributed / staggered when Brown and Tatum aren’t playing together?  Who are their teammates they most regularly play with?

You cite to two years ago, when Tatum was playing as a starter and JB was trying to stabilize the bench.  Is there any wonder why Jaylen’s +/- is worse than JT’s under those circumstances?
Theis on/off differential per 100 possessions last year was +0.5.  The players with at least 1000 minutes last year, the on/off differentials were

Tatum 11.1
Hayward 4.1
Smart 1.3
G. Williams 1.0
Theis 0.5
Walker -0.7
Brown -0.8
Wanamaker -1.6
Ojeleye -9.5

Here is Boston's record in the full games those players missed.

Tatum 2-4
Hayward 14-6
Smart 9-3
G. Williams 1-2
Theis 6-1
Walker 11-5
Brown 10-5
Wanamaker 0-1
Ojeleye 2-1


What is incredibly apparent from those lists is Boston needs Tatum.  They've always needed Tatum, but they haven't really needed anyone else.  The team does just fine when it misses anyone not named Tatum.  I mean here we are sitting at 6-3 this year and Walker hasn't even suited up yet.  He is the 3rd best player on the team, and yet the team just keeps right on trucking along as if he is there.  The last 2 wins, no Teague either.  Doesn't matter.  You take Tatum out though, it matters.  He is Boston.

I think this is partially true but I see the conclusion differently.

The team has brought the two players along very differently. Tatum always has the ball nearly twice as much, and the offense has increasingly run through him. Until this year, Brown's only avenue was to be opportunistic. Even now, the ball does not stick with him, and he doesn't usually start plays even with Tatum on the bench.

That does create a dependency. When Brown comes out, no one else is looking around wondering who starts the offense. Especially without Walker, Tatum is doing most of that work. Even when Walker is playing, he's more of a scorer than a playmaker.

My guess is if we had one or two more ball handlers that were any good, the value would even out. But the C's don't really have playmakers. Who is more valuable is situational. If, let's say Pritchard continued to improve and became a quality playmaker, or we traded for one, the dependency on that part of what Tatum does would go down, and Brown's ability to score in volume without needing to dominate the ball would be more valuable.

Brown has been asked to be a swiss army knife. He's never complained, and has instead figured out how to make it work, without worrying about perceptions about his status as a star. I expect him to be just as good as Tatum over the next few years, and I think they both make All NBA teams.
TP for actually realising what +/- metrics tell you - they're just a measure of situational value.
Sure and over 2+ years no matter the situation Tatum has been a big positive to the scoreboard when on the floor and Brown has not.  It doesn't hold much value in any particular game or even over the course of a handful of games, but over time that stat evens out, and once you hit enough games it is the greatest indicator of actual player value.  Time and time again it doesn't fail you.  It doesn't create strange results (again talking about starters playing big minutes and with a bunch of games played).  You can go back and check any team you want and you will find almost 100% of the time it accurately portrays a players value to the only thing that really matters, i.e. the scoreboard.
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Re: Who is our best player?
« Reply #119 on: January 25, 2021, 09:47:47 PM »

Offline footey

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This will be debated all season, and beyond.