CelticsStrong

Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: LarBrd33 on November 20, 2012, 02:27:18 PM

Title: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: LarBrd33 on November 20, 2012, 02:27:18 PM
Quote
The Boston Celtics are significantly better on defense with Kevin Garnett on the floor.

The Celtics allow 94.6 points per 100 possessions when Garnett plays and 114.2 when he is on the bench.

The 19.6 point gap runs the spectrum from a defense amongst the NBA's best to worst.
Via Zach Lowe/ESPN

Gotta hand it to KG.  He's still unquestionably the MVP of this team.  We only go as far as KG takes us.  Rondo is great at quarterbacking, but this team isn't a contender without KG playing like KG.  We were below .500 for much of last season until KG flipped a switch sometime in February and carried us on his back to the ECF.  He was a vintage 20 and 10 player and the epicenter of our defense.   The above numbers point to that, but it makes sense... this team is lacking in quality bigs.  We haven't been the same since we traded Perk and Shaq hobbled off the court.  You can stick a Big Baby, Bass or SUlly next to KG and they might get some stats, but we'd be far better off with another strong defensive big giving KG some help. 

If we once again overachieve this year by shocking the Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers in the playoffs... it will mainly be because of Kevin Garnett.


Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: pearljammer10 on November 20, 2012, 02:37:07 PM
I was going to post something of this nature around game 7 or 8. I think it was on one of the telecasts where they spoke of Garnetts absurd plus or minus differential being on the court as opposed to not being on the court. It was absolutely ridiculous. Certainly something that should be considered MVP worthy. Hes not even the most talented person on our team, yet, he is by far the Most Valueable piece of our squad and may mean be more valuable to the Celtics team than any other player in the league is to his team.
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: Kane3387 on November 20, 2012, 02:43:47 PM
Quote
If we once again overachieve this year by shocking the Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers in the playoffs... it will mainly be because of Kevin Garnett.

And taking the Heat to 7 when they were down 3-2.
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: LarBrd33 on November 20, 2012, 02:44:18 PM
What's also interesting is that even if you look at the stats they are putting up... KG is still our best player.

I mean, if you look at the statistical efficiency, Rondo is actually in the top 10 right now with an EFF of 23... just behind Chris Paul (23.2 despite playing 5 less minutes per game).

KG has an EFF of 17.5, but KG plays about 10 less minutes per game.  If you compare Rondo's EFF per 48 minutes to KG's EFF per 48 minutes... KG is actually ahead of him with 29.87 to Rondo's 28.96.

It's encouraging news, because it means if we can keep KG fresh until the playoffs... he can maybe get a boost in minutes and carry us deep into the playoffs again. 

 
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: LarBrd33 on November 20, 2012, 02:46:08 PM
Quote
If we once again overachieve this year by shocking the Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers in the playoffs... it will mainly be because of Kevin Garnett.

And taking the Heat to 7 when they were down 3-2.
That's about as impressive as the 8th seed 76ers taking us to 7 in round 2.  In other words, not impressive.  You don't get credit for losing... which is why I left that irrelevant bit out.  Still... we wouldn't have squeaked by the lowly 76ers in 7 games had it not been for KG's brilliant play.
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: pearljammer10 on November 20, 2012, 02:56:22 PM
I hope the 5 minute on 5 minutes off treatment wont distrupt KG from being in shape during the playoffs. Im not worried about it but it could cause some concern.
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: BballTim on November 20, 2012, 03:01:22 PM
Quote
The Boston Celtics are significantly better on defense with Kevin Garnett on the floor.

The Celtics allow 94.6 points per 100 possessions when Garnett plays and 114.2 when he is on the bench.

The 19.6 point gap runs the spectrum from a defense amongst the NBA's best to worst.
Via Zach Lowe/ESPN

Gotta hand it to KG.  He's still unquestionably the MVP of this team.  We only go as far as KG takes us.  Rondo is great at quarterbacking, but this team isn't a contender without KG playing like KG.  We were below .500 for much of last season until KG flipped a switch sometime in February and carried us on his back to the ECF.  He was a vintage 20 and 10 player and the epicenter of our defense.   The above numbers point to that, but it makes sense... this team is lacking in quality bigs.  We haven't been the same since we traded Perk and Shaq hobbled off the court.  You can stick a Big Baby, Bass or SUlly next to KG and they might get some stats, but we'd be far better off with another strong defensive big giving KG some help. 

If we once again overachieve this year by shocking the Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers in the playoffs... it will mainly be because of Kevin Garnett.

  KG played well in the playoffs but Rondo was our best player and carried us as far as we went. In terms of this year's play, we're clearly better on defense with KG in the game but we seem to be better on offense without him. We get outscored when KG's on the bench, but we get outscored by a wider margin when Rondo's out of the game.
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: BballTim on November 20, 2012, 03:03:42 PM
Quote
If we once again overachieve this year by shocking the Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers in the playoffs... it will mainly be because of Kevin Garnett.

And taking the Heat to 7 when they were down 3-2.
That's about as impressive as the 8th seed 76ers taking us to 7 in round 2.  In other words, not impressive. 

  Funny, the number of times you proclaimed that they had no chance of winning 3 games against the Heat, I'd think you'd find it to be somewhat more impressive.
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: LarBrd33 on November 20, 2012, 04:04:24 PM
Quote
If we once again overachieve this year by shocking the Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers in the playoffs... it will mainly be because of Kevin Garnett.

And taking the Heat to 7 when they were down 3-2.
That's about as impressive as the 8th seed 76ers taking us to 7 in round 2.  In other words, not impressive. 

  Funny, the number of times you proclaimed that they had no chance of winning 3 games against the Heat, I'd think you'd find it to be somewhat more impressive.
KG gave us a chance as long as Bosh wasn't playing.
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: LarBrd33 on November 20, 2012, 04:08:59 PM
Quote
The Boston Celtics are significantly better on defense with Kevin Garnett on the floor.

The Celtics allow 94.6 points per 100 possessions when Garnett plays and 114.2 when he is on the bench.

The 19.6 point gap runs the spectrum from a defense amongst the NBA's best to worst.
Via Zach Lowe/ESPN

Gotta hand it to KG.  He's still unquestionably the MVP of this team.  We only go as far as KG takes us.  Rondo is great at quarterbacking, but this team isn't a contender without KG playing like KG.  We were below .500 for much of last season until KG flipped a switch sometime in February and carried us on his back to the ECF.  He was a vintage 20 and 10 player and the epicenter of our defense.   The above numbers point to that, but it makes sense... this team is lacking in quality bigs.  We haven't been the same since we traded Perk and Shaq hobbled off the court.  You can stick a Big Baby, Bass or SUlly next to KG and they might get some stats, but we'd be far better off with another strong defensive big giving KG some help. 

If we once again overachieve this year by shocking the Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers in the playoffs... it will mainly be because of Kevin Garnett.

  KG played well in the playoffs but Rondo was our best player and carried us as far as we went. In terms of this year's play, we're clearly better on defense with KG in the game but we seem to be better on offense without him. We get outscored when KG's on the bench, but we get outscored by a wider margin when Rondo's out of the game.
Rondo had some big numbers in the playoffs for sure.  He's very important to the success of this team... almost as much as KG and Pierce.  If those two are playing well, it gives you a shot.  If Rondo is playing well... it probably means his teammates are hitting shots.  If Rondo is playing poorly, it probably means his teammates aren't hitting shots.  He's one of the best passers in the league though... he's clearly a key cog in our system.  Our offense is tailored around his skill set.   But it's defense that wins championships and our defense is trash without MVP KG.
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: manl_lui on November 20, 2012, 04:41:29 PM
of course he is, he's our defensive anchor. Even at his age, he still has an effect on the court defensively and thats a big value to our team more than anything.
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: BballTim on November 20, 2012, 05:14:25 PM
Quote
If we once again overachieve this year by shocking the Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers in the playoffs... it will mainly be because of Kevin Garnett.

And taking the Heat to 7 when they were down 3-2.
That's about as impressive as the 8th seed 76ers taking us to 7 in round 2.  In other words, not impressive. 

  Funny, the number of times you proclaimed that they had no chance of winning 3 games against the Heat, I'd think you'd find it to be somewhat more impressive.
KG gave us a chance as long as Bosh wasn't playing.

  Bosh was out indefinitely when you were predicting the Heat crushing the Celts.
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: Kane3387 on November 20, 2012, 05:14:34 PM
Quote
If we once again overachieve this year by shocking the Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers in the playoffs... it will mainly be because of Kevin Garnett.

And taking the Heat to 7 when they were down 3-2.
That's about as impressive as the 8th seed 76ers taking us to 7 in round 2.  In other words, not impressive.  You don't get credit for losing... which is why I left that irrelevant bit out.  Still... we wouldn't have squeaked by the lowly 76ers in 7 games had it not been for KG's brilliant play.

That series was just a tough matchup. Team sports and basketball more prominently are about match ups.

Igoudala has always been hard on Pierce and when you add his knee into it it made it very difficult for the Captain to be consistent. Avery Bradley was playing tremendous defense on Holiday. He goes down and Rondo has to move over and defend him. Holiday took advantage of that. It forced Ray on a bad ankle to play more and Turner took advantage of that.

Those specific match ups were tough on the squad. KG played so well because he exploited his matchup with Brand when he was in there. Lavoy comes in and he was a better matchup on defense for defending KG. Kg didn't produce at the same rate against Allen.

Matchups are what it's all about. Not seeding. Seeding is so you hopefully have HCA and the better match ups in the first round. Just look at Atlanta vs Boston in 2008. GS vs Dallas in 2009. SA  and Memphis in 2011. All those one seeds did not match up well with those 8 seeds and the one seed either lost or escaped with a series win.

Remember in 2009 when we took Orlando to 7 without KG? We still matched up well with Orlando other then defending Rashard Lewis. But Cleveland lost to that team in 6 because they didn't match up well. Chances are if we beat Orlando in 2009 that we get swept by Cleveland in the ECF because of the match ups.

We took Miami to 7 because we matched up pretty well with them. We do this year too.

Your too worried about seeding. We have a more talented team this season that just needs to improve its chemistry and continuity. As a result we match up well with most teams. We just need guys to get more acclimated to their roles and be comfortable in those. It might take a little time but it's early.

Come April, May, and June when we can actually game plan against an opponent and analyze their strengths and weaknesses we will be very good.
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: Kane3387 on November 20, 2012, 05:22:59 PM
Quote
If we once again overachieve this year by shocking the Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers in the playoffs... it will mainly be because of Kevin Garnett.

And taking the Heat to 7 when they were down 3-2.
That's about as impressive as the 8th seed 76ers taking us to 7 in round 2.  In other words, not impressive. 

  Funny, the number of times you proclaimed that they had no chance of winning 3 games against the Heat, I'd think you'd find it to be somewhat more impressive.
KG gave us a chance as long as Bosh wasn't playing.

Meh.. LeBron seemed to defend KG much better then I ever saw Bosh do it. Our defense kept things close and the fact Wade looked like a shell of himself in the first half of games. Still in the second he fed on Ray Allen's defense.

Kg has always played well against Bosh. Bosh didn't do anything in game 6. That was all Lebron. He ripped our hearts from our chest for three quarters. In game 7 the guy hit three 3s and they were at big moments. You wanted him shooting that shot in those moments.

I could argue that Chris Bosh's impact in that series would have been negated by Avery Bradley's impact with his defense, cutting to a hoop with no shot blocker to defend it, and the fact it gave us an extra player to spell Ray and Rondo not named Keyon Dooling.
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: BballTim on November 20, 2012, 05:36:21 PM
Quote
The Boston Celtics are significantly better on defense with Kevin Garnett on the floor.

The Celtics allow 94.6 points per 100 possessions when Garnett plays and 114.2 when he is on the bench.

The 19.6 point gap runs the spectrum from a defense amongst the NBA's best to worst.
Via Zach Lowe/ESPN

Gotta hand it to KG.  He's still unquestionably the MVP of this team.  We only go as far as KG takes us.  Rondo is great at quarterbacking, but this team isn't a contender without KG playing like KG.  We were below .500 for much of last season until KG flipped a switch sometime in February and carried us on his back to the ECF.  He was a vintage 20 and 10 player and the epicenter of our defense.   The above numbers point to that, but it makes sense... this team is lacking in quality bigs.  We haven't been the same since we traded Perk and Shaq hobbled off the court.  You can stick a Big Baby, Bass or SUlly next to KG and they might get some stats, but we'd be far better off with another strong defensive big giving KG some help. 

If we once again overachieve this year by shocking the Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers in the playoffs... it will mainly be because of Kevin Garnett.

  KG played well in the playoffs but Rondo was our best player and carried us as far as we went. In terms of this year's play, we're clearly better on defense with KG in the game but we seem to be better on offense without him. We get outscored when KG's on the bench, but we get outscored by a wider margin when Rondo's out of the game.
Rondo had some big numbers in the playoffs for sure.  He's very important to the success of this team... almost as much as KG and Pierce.  If those two are playing well, it gives you a shot.  If Rondo is playing well... it probably means his teammates are hitting shots.  If Rondo is playing poorly, it probably means his teammates aren't hitting shots.

  You're almost there. When Rondo plays well his teammates hit shots. Hitting shots is important, and Rondo getting his teammates easier shots is much more valuable than you realize.

He's one of the best passers in the league though... he's clearly a key cog in our system.  Our offense is tailored around his skill set.

  You've claimed that the team was tailored around Rondo's skills when Ray was our starting sg, yet Rondo ran the offense just as effectively when Bradley replaced him. You've claimed that having KG and Bass shooting jumpers was necessary for Rondo to excel, but he does fine with Perk/Shaq/Wilcox on the court. How does a team become tailored to Rondo's skill set? By having bigs that either play on the low post or shoot outside jumpers? By having shooting guards that either specialize in hitting threes or cutting to the basket?

   But it's defense that wins championships and our defense is trash without MVP KG.

  We've been better defensively than 3 of the last 4 champions, obviously there's more to winning the title than you think.
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: mctyson on November 20, 2012, 05:43:34 PM
Quote
The Boston Celtics are significantly better on defense with Kevin Garnett on the floor.

The Celtics allow 94.6 points per 100 possessions when Garnett plays and 114.2 when he is on the bench.

The 19.6 point gap runs the spectrum from a defense amongst the NBA's best to worst.
Via Zach Lowe/ESPN

Gotta hand it to KG.  He's still unquestionably the MVP of this team.  We only go as far as KG takes us.  Rondo is great at quarterbacking, but this team isn't a contender without KG playing like KG.  We were below .500 for much of last season until KG flipped a switch sometime in February and carried us on his back to the ECF.  He was a vintage 20 and 10 player and the epicenter of our defense.   The above numbers point to that, but it makes sense... this team is lacking in quality bigs.  We haven't been the same since we traded Perk and Shaq hobbled off the court.  You can stick a Big Baby, Bass or SUlly next to KG and they might get some stats, but we'd be far better off with another strong defensive big giving KG some help. 

If we once again overachieve this year by shocking the Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers in the playoffs... it will mainly be because of Kevin Garnett.

...and watch what happens when we add Avery Bradley back into the mix.  Terry and Lee off the bench.  Danny and Doc's plan all along.

This team is nowhere near where it will be in April.  Mark My Words.
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: chambers on November 20, 2012, 08:27:27 PM
Quote
The Boston Celtics are significantly better on defense with Kevin Garnett on the floor.

The Celtics allow 94.6 points per 100 possessions when Garnett plays and 114.2 when he is on the bench.

The 19.6 point gap runs the spectrum from a defense amongst the NBA's best to worst.
Via Zach Lowe/ESPN

Gotta hand it to KG.  He's still unquestionably the MVP of this team.  We only go as far as KG takes us.  Rondo is great at quarterbacking, but this team isn't a contender without KG playing like KG.  We were below .500 for much of last season until KG flipped a switch sometime in February and carried us on his back to the ECF.  He was a vintage 20 and 10 player and the epicenter of our defense.   The above numbers point to that, but it makes sense... this team is lacking in quality bigs.  We haven't been the same since we traded Perk and Shaq hobbled off the court.  You can stick a Big Baby, Bass or SUlly next to KG and they might get some stats, but we'd be far better off with another strong defensive big giving KG some help. 

If we once again overachieve this year by shocking the Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers in the playoffs... it will mainly be because of Kevin Garnett.

You're right about KG, but we aren't a contender without Rondo playing like Rondo. You need to give him more credit-he's not just a great quarterback, he's our most potent offensive weapon. Think about last years playoffs. KG was amazing. But who was better? KG or Rondo?

Simple answer is that without Rondo or KG, we are toast.

 
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: crimson_stallion on November 20, 2012, 09:00:34 PM
You're right about KG, but we aren't a contender without Rondo playing like Rondo. You need to give him more credit-he's not just a great quarterback, he's our most potent offensive weapon. Think about last years playoffs. KG was amazing. But who was better? KG or Rondo?

Simple answer is that without Rondo or KG, we are toast.

It's difficult to answer, but if I had to I would say KG.  Whenever KG sat on the bench we were getting our butts absolute whipped by anybody who played against us.  If KG wasn't on the team, that would be 48 minutes of butt whipping every night.

While Rondo was on the court we were much worse, but we weren't getting butt whipped as bad as we did when KG sat.

The same is true this season - we almost won the one game we played without Rondo, even with non-natural PG who is new to the team and doesn't know our plays.  Without Rondo our team still shot efficiently - something like 50% from the floor - simply because of all the scorers we now have.

Without KG we can still shoot 50% from the floor but it doesn't help us, because our defense is so bad that the opposition can match us point for point...and yet our defense is too horrible to have a hope at stopping them.

I think KG was more important in the Playoffs because he was the first person to really set the tone.  He had some massive games, and then when he finally did slow down Rondo filled the void with some massive games of his own.  KG was the initial aggressor though - he set the tone with his work ethic, and the entire team followed.

One big thing that seperates the two for me is mentality.  Rondo seems to play hard in spurts, when he feels like it.  Other times he seems like he's running on cruise control.  Many people here have documented Rondo's tendancy to show up for games taht are on the big stage (telecast games, games against big teams, etc) and then fade for the less exciting games.  He has a tendancy also to be wreckless at times in an attempt to be flashy and wow the cameras.

KG is 110% effort every single night.  He doesn't take games off - if he plays bad it's because he played bad, not because he didn't try.  Every night he's out there sweating like a pig and running until he can't run anymore.  How many times have you seem him run in front of everybody on the fast break for a finish?  Chase down another player on the fast break defensively?  Dive to the ground for loose balls?  This guy is 36 years old and plays with the energy and desperation of a 22 year old who's trying to earn a contract. 

All of this might make it sound like I'm anti Rondo but hell no I'm not.  He is right up there in terms of his importance to our team, and I agree that without him we'd have no hope of a title.  I just think that KG is that little bit more important.

Without Rondo we'd never win a title, but without KG I doubt we'd even make the playoffs.
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: More Banners on November 20, 2012, 09:13:39 PM
An MVP that can only play 5 minute spurts.

Explains a lot...
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on November 20, 2012, 09:45:59 PM
Quote
If we once again overachieve this year by shocking the Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers in the playoffs... it will mainly be because of Kevin Garnett.

And taking the Heat to 7 when they were down 3-2.
That's about as impressive as the 8th seed 76ers taking us to 7 in round 2.  In other words, not impressive.  You don't get credit for losing... which is why I left that irrelevant bit out.  Still... we wouldn't have squeaked by the lowly 76ers in 7 games had it not been for KG's brilliant play.

we played better against the heat than we did the sixers. we discussed it here ad nauseum. also we outplayed the heat in 4 straight games...2, 3, 4, and 5. Did the sixers do that to us? NOPE.
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: LarBrd33 on November 20, 2012, 10:57:19 PM
Quote
The Boston Celtics are significantly better on defense with Kevin Garnett on the floor.

The Celtics allow 94.6 points per 100 possessions when Garnett plays and 114.2 when he is on the bench.

The 19.6 point gap runs the spectrum from a defense amongst the NBA's best to worst.
Via Zach Lowe/ESPN

Gotta hand it to KG.  He's still unquestionably the MVP of this team.  We only go as far as KG takes us.  Rondo is great at quarterbacking, but this team isn't a contender without KG playing like KG.  We were below .500 for much of last season until KG flipped a switch sometime in February and carried us on his back to the ECF.  He was a vintage 20 and 10 player and the epicenter of our defense.   The above numbers point to that, but it makes sense... this team is lacking in quality bigs.  We haven't been the same since we traded Perk and Shaq hobbled off the court.  You can stick a Big Baby, Bass or SUlly next to KG and they might get some stats, but we'd be far better off with another strong defensive big giving KG some help. 

If we once again overachieve this year by shocking the Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers in the playoffs... it will mainly be because of Kevin Garnett.

You're right about KG, but we aren't a contender without Rondo playing like Rondo. You need to give him more credit-he's not just a great quarterback, he's our most potent offensive weapon. Think about last years playoffs. KG was amazing. But who was better? KG or Rondo?

Simple answer is that without Rondo or KG, we are toast.
Our most potent offensive weapon is Paul Pierce.  KG is our best player.  Rondo is super good at getting assists.  That streak don't lie.  The man sure can pass to shooters like only a handful of players in this league are capable of.  I'm just saying KG is our MVP even at his advanced age.

Fwiw, I was shocked we recently lost that game with Rondo sitting out.  Historically we have won games when Rondo sat.  Not because Rondo makes us worse... it's just that players like Paul Pierce have a tendency to step up when he's out.  Our scorers still manage to put the ball in the hoop even when it's not Rondo passing to them.   Probably a fluke, though.  It's a small sample size.
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: crimson_stallion on November 20, 2012, 10:58:26 PM
An MVP that can only play 5 minute spurts.

Explains a lot...

Only in the regular season because it's not worth the risk.  If we lose KG we lose the season, basically.

There will be certain games that Doc considers important (like those against potential playoff advasaries) in which he'll play KG more minutes because the win means more.  The ones that aren't as meaningful, his minutes will be undertandably limited.

In the Playoffs he'll be up around 35 minutes per game just like last season.

Personally I think we should be limiting Rondo's minutes.  I'd rather see him down around the 35 minute range and certain now above 40.  He's too valuable for us and the more minutes he spends on the court the higher the risk of him getting injured. 

Hopefully the team will start playing better, build some nice leads, and we'll get more opportunities to rest those guys.
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: chambers on November 21, 2012, 01:06:24 AM
Quote
The Boston Celtics are significantly better on defense with Kevin Garnett on the floor.

The Celtics allow 94.6 points per 100 possessions when Garnett plays and 114.2 when he is on the bench.

The 19.6 point gap runs the spectrum from a defense amongst the NBA's best to worst.
Via Zach Lowe/ESPN

Gotta hand it to KG.  He's still unquestionably the MVP of this team.  We only go as far as KG takes us.  Rondo is great at quarterbacking, but this team isn't a contender without KG playing like KG.  We were below .500 for much of last season until KG flipped a switch sometime in February and carried us on his back to the ECF.  He was a vintage 20 and 10 player and the epicenter of our defense.   The above numbers point to that, but it makes sense... this team is lacking in quality bigs.  We haven't been the same since we traded Perk and Shaq hobbled off the court.  You can stick a Big Baby, Bass or SUlly next to KG and they might get some stats, but we'd be far better off with another strong defensive big giving KG some help. 

If we once again overachieve this year by shocking the Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers in the playoffs... it will mainly be because of Kevin Garnett.

You're right about KG, but we aren't a contender without Rondo playing like Rondo. You need to give him more credit-he's not just a great quarterback, he's our most potent offensive weapon. Think about last years playoffs. KG was amazing. But who was better? KG or Rondo?

Simple answer is that without Rondo or KG, we are toast.
Our most potent offensive weapon is Paul Pierce.  KG is our best player.  Rondo is super good at getting assists.  That streak don't lie.  The man sure can pass to shooters like only a handful of players in this league are capable of.  I'm just saying KG is our MVP even at his advanced age.

Fwiw, I was shocked we recently lost that game with Rondo sitting out.  Historically we have won games when Rondo sat.  Not because Rondo makes us worse... it's just that players like Paul Pierce have a tendency to step up when he's out.  Our scorers still manage to put the ball in the hoop even when it's not Rondo passing to them.   Probably a fluke, though.  It's a small sample size.

Our most potent player on the offensive side of the floor is Rondo, hands down.

Do we get anywhere near 7 games against the Heat without Rondo?
I'd say we agree Rondo is like only 3 or 4 of players in the league that can pass, create and anticipate potential plays better than 99% of the league.

I think you'd agree that KG is one of less than a handful of defensive juggernaughts in the NBA like Dwight Howard and Tyson Chandler.

'You're just saying' that KG is our MVP at his advanced age. The fact is we have two MVP's. We cannot win a championship without Rondo, and we cannot win without Garnett.
So who is more likely to win the MVP of the entire NBA? Rondo or Garnett?
I think we're 100% toast without KG, but we are also 100% toast without Rondo. If you think losing Rondo for the season means that Pierce will step up and take over his offensive production in points and assists, rebounds and somehow pick up the slack that Rondo's defense on opposing guards produced then I don't think you're being realistic, I think you're almost trying to under rate Rondo because you have a personal vendetta about Celtics fans tending to over rate him.
The entire NBA now agrees that Rondo is the MVP of the Celtics, he's been talked about being league MVP.
KG and Rondo are co-MVP's of this team and without either we are royally screwed.


Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: BballTim on November 21, 2012, 01:58:17 AM
Quote
The Boston Celtics are significantly better on defense with Kevin Garnett on the floor.

The Celtics allow 94.6 points per 100 possessions when Garnett plays and 114.2 when he is on the bench.

The 19.6 point gap runs the spectrum from a defense amongst the NBA's best to worst.
Via Zach Lowe/ESPN

Gotta hand it to KG.  He's still unquestionably the MVP of this team.  We only go as far as KG takes us.  Rondo is great at quarterbacking, but this team isn't a contender without KG playing like KG.  We were below .500 for much of last season until KG flipped a switch sometime in February and carried us on his back to the ECF.  He was a vintage 20 and 10 player and the epicenter of our defense.   The above numbers point to that, but it makes sense... this team is lacking in quality bigs.  We haven't been the same since we traded Perk and Shaq hobbled off the court.  You can stick a Big Baby, Bass or SUlly next to KG and they might get some stats, but we'd be far better off with another strong defensive big giving KG some help. 

If we once again overachieve this year by shocking the Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers in the playoffs... it will mainly be because of Kevin Garnett.

You're right about KG, but we aren't a contender without Rondo playing like Rondo. You need to give him more credit-he's not just a great quarterback, he's our most potent offensive weapon. Think about last years playoffs. KG was amazing. But who was better? KG or Rondo?

Simple answer is that without Rondo or KG, we are toast.
Our most potent offensive weapon is Paul Pierce.  KG is our best player.

  Our most potent offensive weapon is Rondo's passing. And KG isn't our best player. You have a better argument that he's "MVP", but that's based on the defensive abilities of our other bigs. If Perk was still here, or even (a relatively healthy) JO, our defense wouldn't fall apart when KG came out and his "value" would drop considerably.

  Look at the numbers you started the thread with. The Celtics allow 94.6 points per 100 possessions when Garnett plays and 114.2 when he is on the bench. That 19 point differential is significantly higher than any of his previous 5 seasons with the team, including a differential of 4 in 07-08. He's obviously not a significantly better defender now than he was then, he's not even as good. The differential is due to the poor defense of the other bigs. That poor defense makes KG more valuable, but it doesn't make him better.
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: KGs Knee on November 21, 2012, 09:50:31 AM
If KG is our MVP, its only due to all our other bigs being average at best.  KG is the only big who can even attempt to play decent PnR defense, and Wilcox is the only other big (that actually plays) that offers any semblance of interior presence.

Rondo is our best player, plain and simple.  He's also considered, league wide not just among Celtics' fans, to be a legitimate LEAGUE MVP.

Haters gonna hate.
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: soap07 on November 21, 2012, 10:04:29 AM
Quote
Rondo is our best player, plain and simple.  He's also considered, league wide not just among Celtics' fans, to be a legitimate LEAGUE MVP.

I would like to find a person outside of Celtics fans who consider Rondo to be a legitimate league MVP contender.
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: KGs Knee on November 21, 2012, 10:09:44 AM
^^^  turn on your TV
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: crownsy on November 21, 2012, 10:23:08 AM
Quote
Rondo is our best player, plain and simple.  He's also considered, league wide not just among Celtics' fans, to be a legitimate LEAGUE MVP.

I would like to find a person outside of Celtics fans who consider Rondo to be a legitimate league MVP contender.

How bout the NBA?

http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/2012-13/index.html

ESPN has him 8th on thier list.

Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: BballTim on November 21, 2012, 10:24:54 AM
Quote
Rondo is our best player, plain and simple.  He's also considered, league wide not just among Celtics' fans, to be a legitimate LEAGUE MVP.

I would like to find a person outside of Celtics fans who consider Rondo to be a legitimate league MVP contender.

  I'm sure the number would be higher than the number of people who think that KG would be an MVP candidate, but you're just arguing semantics. How high up in the voting do you have to finish to be a contender? How likely does your finishing there have to be to be considered legitimate? If people think he's a dark horse candidate does that fit the bill?
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: scaryjerry on November 22, 2012, 09:51:25 AM
Lol Those 3 rebounds to Tim Duncan's 15 were mvp like. Yawn.


You're seriously overrating kg in his current state. He cant be effective after playing 5 minutes. Sorry not Mvp
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: soap07 on November 22, 2012, 09:55:57 AM
Quote
Rondo is our best player, plain and simple.  He's also considered, league wide not just among Celtics' fans, to be a legitimate LEAGUE MVP.

I would like to find a person outside of Celtics fans who consider Rondo to be a legitimate league MVP contender.

  I'm sure the number would be higher than the number of people who think that KG would be an MVP candidate, but you're just arguing semantics. How high up in the voting do you have to finish to be a contender? How likely does your finishing there have to be to be considered legitimate? If people think he's a dark horse candidate does that fit the bill?

I agree with you that the number would be higher (and should be). At this point in his career, KG is a borderline All Star, let alone an MVP candidate.

I think, charitably, Rondo is a "dark horse candidate"...but even that's a stretch.


Quote
How bout the NBA?

http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/2012-13/index.html

ESPN has him 8th on thier list.

Brandon Jennings is right there with Rondo on that list. I'm just not sure there are many NBA fans that think Jennings is a legitimate NBA MVP candidate, same with Rondo.
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: soap07 on November 22, 2012, 09:58:00 AM
The notion that KG is MVP of this team is either ridiculous or shows the poor state of the team now (or both). Garnett barely plays more than half the game. Half. In 28 minutes, he's averaging 15/7. Is he even an All Star this year?
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: scaryjerry on November 22, 2012, 10:06:49 AM
Quote
The Boston Celtics are significantly better on defense with Kevin Garnett on the floor.

The Celtics allow 94.6 points per 100 possessions when Garnett plays and 114.2 when he is on the bench.

The 19.6 point gap runs the spectrum from a defense amongst the NBA's best to worst.
Via Zach Lowe/ESPN

Gotta hand it to KG.  He's still unquestionably the MVP of this team.  We only go as far as KG takes us.  Rondo is great at quarterbacking, but this team isn't a contender without KG playing like KG.  We were below .500 for much of last season until KG flipped a switch sometime in February and carried us on his back to the ECF.  He was a vintage 20 and 10 player and the epicenter of our defense.   The above numbers point to that, but it makes sense... this team is lacking in quality bigs.  We haven't been the same since we traded Perk and Shaq hobbled off the court.  You can stick a Big Baby, Bass or SUlly next to KG and they might get some stats, but we'd be far better off with another strong defensive big giving KG some help. 

If we once again overachieve this year by shocking the Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers in the playoffs... it will mainly be because of Kevin Garnett.

You're right about KG, but we aren't a contender without Rondo playing like Rondo. You need to give him more credit-he's not just a great quarterback, he's our most potent offensive weapon. Think about last years playoffs. KG was amazing. But who was better? KG or Rondo?

Simple answer is that without Rondo or KG, we are toast.
Our most potent offensive weapon is Paul Pierce.  KG is our best player.  Rondo is super good at getting assists.  That streak don't lie.  The man sure can pass to shooters like only a handful of players in this league are capable of.  I'm just saying KG is our MVP even at his advanced age.

Fwiw, I was shocked we recently lost that game with Rondo sitting out.  Historically we have won games when Rondo sat.  Not because Rondo makes us worse... it's just that players like Paul Pierce have a tendency to step up when he's out.  Our scorers still manage to put the ball in the hoop even when it's not Rondo passing to them.   Probably a fluke, though.  It's a small sample size.

Hahahaha everything you said is laughable. We also were unbeatable without kg in 2007 and Brian scalabrine starting...in 2009 we were a game from the conference finals without kg playing a minute. Paul pierce being our best offensives weapon? Is this just a schtick tying to irks rondo honks ...no one around the league agrees
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: scaryjerry on November 22, 2012, 10:10:18 AM
The notion that KG is MVP of this team is either ridiculous or shows the poor state of the team now (or both). Garnett barely plays more than half the game. Half. In 28 minutes, he's averaging 15/7. Is he even an All Star this year?

Those 3 rebounds and getting annihilated by the spurs bigs didn't sell you on kgs Mvp candidacy?
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: BballTim on November 22, 2012, 10:21:54 AM
The notion that KG is MVP of this team is either ridiculous or shows the poor state of the team now (or both). Garnett barely plays more than half the game. Half. In 28 minutes, he's averaging 15/7. Is he even an All Star this year?

  I hate arguments about all-star teams (and mvps, truth be told) but I'd say KG's probably going to make the all-star team.
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: MBz on November 22, 2012, 10:38:39 AM
The notion that KG is MVP of this team is either ridiculous or shows the poor state of the team now (or both). Garnett barely plays more than half the game. Half. In 28 minutes, he's averaging 15/7. Is he even an All Star this year?

  I hate arguments about all-star teams (and mvps, truth be told) but I'd say KG's probably going to make the all-star team.

Agreed.  Also I think from last season it's pretty clear cut that KG is our MVP.  With that said, KG didn't really step up til the all-star break last year.  I wouldn't expect him to step his game until then this year as well.  He can't handle a full 82 game schedule at the elite level anymore. 
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: scaryjerry on November 22, 2012, 10:53:42 AM
The notion that KG is MVP of this team is either ridiculous or shows the poor state of the team now (or both). Garnett barely plays more than half the game. Half. In 28 minutes, he's averaging 15/7. Is he even an All Star this year?

  I hate arguments about all-star teams (and mvps, truth be told) but I'd say KG's probably going to make the all-star team.

Agreed.  Also I think from last season it's pretty clear cut that KG is our MVP.  With that said, KG didn't really step up til the all-star break last year.  I wouldn't expect him to step his game until then this year as well.  He can't handle a full 82 game schedule at the elite level anymore.

Only KG could be let off the hook and be called an MVP for not showing up until after all star break.
Title: Re: KG is Still our MVP
Post by: BballTim on November 22, 2012, 10:59:59 AM
The notion that KG is MVP of this team is either ridiculous or shows the poor state of the team now (or both). Garnett barely plays more than half the game. Half. In 28 minutes, he's averaging 15/7. Is he even an All Star this year?

  I hate arguments about all-star teams (and mvps, truth be told) but I'd say KG's probably going to make the all-star team.

Agreed.  Also I think from last season it's pretty clear cut that KG is our MVP.  With that said, KG didn't really step up til the all-star break last year.  I wouldn't expect him to step his game until then this year as well.  He can't handle a full 82 game schedule at the elite level anymore.

  Again, you'd have to decide whether MVP means most indispensable due to the makeup of the roster or best player. KG's probably one but not the other.